|
On October 04 2011 21:47 kcdc wrote:
High masters, Top 200 in the past. Two attempts, two wins. This feels a million times stronger than anything else I've done in PvZ. This is going to give Z a whine-fest like they haven't had since Idra and Artosis posted that video about colossus (particularly with void ray) being OP.
Wow this make me highly interested. I've had trouble at the high masters level with PvZ for some time now.
|
On October 06 2011 03:25 Anihc wrote:
Hey way to add a "comments from blue posters" section and ignore my posts!
I finally got a chance to watch all your replays (I had only watched 1 of them when I commented earlier). I really do like your idea behind this build but I think I do have some extremely valid criticisms.
1. In pretty much every battle that occurred, you would have won without the mothership. Adding in the mothership and vortex just made it an even more lopsided battle. The zergs you were playing had relatively bad macro compared to you, and often made too many hydras and attacked off creep - that alone easily dies to chargelot/archon.
2. I said this earlier but you do look extremely weak early on while you're teching to mothership. Yes I do agree with you that once you get that mothership out, you can easily protect your 3rd, but by that time (11-12 min) it's not really a "fast" third anymore. I can get a safe 11-12 min third with a number of other builds, without being weak before the mothership pops out. I say this all the time (and not just in this thread) but a handful of void rays does not make you invunerable to roach/ling attacks. Lings kill shit so fast and can be reproduced and rallied faster than your voids can kill them. Roaches don't even die that fast to voids, there have been games where I've gone 2 stargate voids and still lost to a roach counter.
3. Now the mothership itself. A lot of its power comes from the fact that a lot of zergs just have never seen it before. The opponents in your replays speak for themselves. Some guy had never seen a vortex before, while another didn't even know motherships could be NPed. A lot of players overreacted by making a ton of corruptor (and no hive/BL tech) when you only had like 3 air units + a mothership, leaving their group army really weak.Trust me, when you start playing better players who actually know how to deal with mothership (spreading out units, not throwing everything into the vortex, using terrain to their advantage, not making hydras - lol), you might experience some frustrations yourself. I personally find it very risky to have your entire late game plan be based on the mothership. Vortexes aren't cheap, if you misplace 1 or somehow lose your mothership, you'll be dead before the energy regens or you can build another one... especially when your army is just chargelot/archon - a decent mid game composition, but not exactly the best end game composition.
4. Speaking of end game, do you have any replays of you facing broodlord and/or infestor usage? It's not like protoss was ever having trouble against roach/hydra/corruptor. I've lost many many mothership archon vs brood lord fights as long as the zerg isn't dumb enough to stick everything into the vortex. And what about other things, like ultras and/or banes? On the rare occasions where I've fought against ultras, I've found that they actually fare a bit better against vortex than other zerg units, since they don't die that fast and have some splash of their own. And while banelings by themselves or bane/ling will not get through your archons, banes in addition to other units (such as roach/infestor) can be dangerous since banes will still pretty much immediately clear all your zealots. Then you're left with roach vs archon...
Good points across the board. Some thoughts:
An 11 minute third isn't particularly fast for PvZ, but it's certainly not slow. I've played around with a lot of ways to secure a fast third in PvZ, but the problem that I would run into is that my army would tend to be either strong but slow (immortals) or more mobile but weak (blink or early colossi), and both were exploitable by roaches with speed. The mothership gives you an army that, while rather small, is surprisingly difficult to kill at the timing where you're defending your third, and it also helps with mobility issues.
The other advantage over other builds is that your end-game tech is more or less up at 11 min, so once you stabilize, your strength snowballs very quickly compared to blink builds (which can dead-end) or colossi builds (which have to continue to transition as they deal with corruptors, infestors, and finally broodlords). I suspect that spreading a large broodlord force would handle mothership+archon decently well, but the tech is also already up for void rays and carriers.
As for roach/speedling, I'm sure there are ways for Z to exploit P's lack of ground army between 7-12 minutes, but it's not easy. P has the scouting to see able to see an attack forming (whether he does or not is another issue), and P has about 16 forcefields available to buy time for voids to thin the numbers out. Quick drops might work, but given good execution from P's end, it seems like a frontal attack would not work well without AA.
|
On October 06 2011 03:49 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 03:25 Anihc wrote:
Hey way to add a "comments from blue posters" section and ignore my posts!
I finally got a chance to watch all your replays (I had only watched 1 of them when I commented earlier). I really do like your idea behind this build but I think I do have some extremely valid criticisms.
1. In pretty much every battle that occurred, you would have won without the mothership. Adding in the mothership and vortex just made it an even more lopsided battle. The zergs you were playing had relatively bad macro compared to you, and often made too many hydras and attacked off creep - that alone easily dies to chargelot/archon.
2. I said this earlier but you do look extremely weak early on while you're teching to mothership. Yes I do agree with you that once you get that mothership out, you can easily protect your 3rd, but by that time (11-12 min) it's not really a "fast" third anymore. I can get a safe 11-12 min third with a number of other builds, without being weak before the mothership pops out. I say this all the time (and not just in this thread) but a handful of void rays does not make you invunerable to roach/ling attacks. Lings kill shit so fast and can be reproduced and rallied faster than your voids can kill them. Roaches don't even die that fast to voids, there have been games where I've gone 2 stargate voids and still lost to a roach counter.
3. Now the mothership itself. A lot of its power comes from the fact that a lot of zergs just have never seen it before. The opponents in your replays speak for themselves. Some guy had never seen a vortex before, while another didn't even know motherships could be NPed. A lot of players overreacted by making a ton of corruptor (and no hive/BL tech) when you only had like 3 air units + a mothership, leaving their group army really weak.Trust me, when you start playing better players who actually know how to deal with mothership (spreading out units, not throwing everything into the vortex, using terrain to their advantage, not making hydras - lol), you might experience some frustrations yourself. I personally find it very risky to have your entire late game plan be based on the mothership. Vortexes aren't cheap, if you misplace 1 or somehow lose your mothership, you'll be dead before the energy regens or you can build another one... especially when your army is just chargelot/archon - a decent mid game composition, but not exactly the best end game composition.
4. Speaking of end game, do you have any replays of you facing broodlord and/or infestor usage? It's not like protoss was ever having trouble against roach/hydra/corruptor. I've lost many many mothership archon vs brood lord fights as long as the zerg isn't dumb enough to stick everything into the vortex. And what about other things, like ultras and/or banes? On the rare occasions where I've fought against ultras, I've found that they actually fare a bit better against vortex than other zerg units, since they don't die that fast and have some splash of their own. And while banelings by themselves or bane/ling will not get through your archons, banes in addition to other units (such as roach/infestor) can be dangerous since banes will still pretty much immediately clear all your zealots. Then you're left with roach vs archon... Good points across the board. Some thoughts: An 11 minute third isn't particularly fast for PvZ, but it's certainly not slow. I've played around with a lot of ways to secure a fast third in PvZ, but the problem that I would run into is that my army would tend to be either strong but slow (immortals) or more mobile but weak (blink or early colossi), and both were exploitable by roaches with speed. The mothership gives you an army that, while rather small, is surprisingly difficult to kill at the timing where you're defending your third, and it also helps with mobility issues. The other advantage over other builds is that your end-game tech is more or less up at 11 min, so once you stabilize, your strength snowballs very quickly compared to blink builds (which can dead-end) or colossi builds (which have to continue to transition as they deal with corruptors, infestors, and finally broodlords). I suspect that spreading a large broodlord force would handle mothership+archon decently well, but the tech is also already up for void rays and carriers. As for roach/speedling, I'm sure there are ways for Z to exploit P's lack of ground army between 7-12 minutes, but it's not easy. P has the scouting to see able to see an attack forming (whether he does or not is another issue), and P has about 16 forcefields available to buy time for voids to thin the numbers out. Quick drops might work, but given good execution from P's end, it seems like a frontal attack would not work well without AA.
I guess that's a good point about the third. Contrary to how slow the mothership is, this army comp is indeed extremely mobile and not fragile either (like blink). One thing I do really like about this build is how easy you can max with a strong a-move army. I suspect that you can probably attack before the zerg gets a significant amount of BL/infestor, and that could very well be the answer to BL.
I still have my reservations about fighting a strong macro zerg that goes mainly mass roach (maybe some supporting infestors and/or banelings, but definitely no mass hydra). And while I still believe 2 base roach/ling can do damage against this, my point was that any 2 base all-in will be strong vs a a build that tries to tech and expand at the same time. And this is the ultimate build in terms of tech. Roach/ling was just the most common (roach by itself easier to stop because of FF + void, but if you add in lings you can't really kill lings with voids before they kill you). Other less common 2 base all-ins are even much harder to stop, especially (in order of decreasing popularity) hydra/ling, spine crawler rush, or burrowed roaches.
|
I too am worried that before the mothership comes out there is some vulnerability. I would like to see some replays of zergs going balls out to try to exploit that timing. In some or maybe all of those replays the 3rd is being warped in before the mothership is out, so if zergs have good map awareness they can just deny it.
I would like to see more transitions in the late game rather than repeatedly throwing archons and chargelots at the zerg. Void rays and carriers would probably be good and maybe even colossi. Also the mothership allows for more harassment opportunities that I want to see happen.
Awesome build though, I'm going to try it out. Thanks for it.
|
Heh the real thing to take away from this strategy isn't the mothership. it's just that archons are incredible when actually protected instead of left to fight whole armies by themselves something thats been touted for a long time by certain people on these forums.
|
On October 06 2011 04:14 AirbladeOrange wrote:
I too am worried that before the mothership comes out there is some vulnerability. I would like to see some replays of zergs going balls out to try to exploit that timing. In some or maybe all of those replays the 3rd is being warped in before the mothership is out, so if zergs have good map awareness they can just deny it.
I believe the OP covers that point about the 9-10 minute nexus in the blurb about a zerg fast 3rd. It's a low risk/high reward. He said he doesn't mind cancelling it if he knows he can't defend it. It's only a 100 min loss but if it gets up then it's a big gain. If you can't get he nexus up at 9-10 wait for the mothership and put it up 11-12.
Defending an all out attack at that timing is a different story but having them deny an early nexus doesn't seem like a big deal as long as you take the 3rd again when your mothership is out.
|
On October 06 2011 03:25 Anihc wrote:
Hey way to add a "comments from blue posters" section and ignore my posts!
I finally got a chance to watch all your replays (I had only watched 1 of them when I commented earlier). I really do like your idea behind this build but I think I do have some extremely valid criticisms.
1. In pretty much every battle that occurred, you would have won without the mothership. Adding in the mothership and vortex just made it an even more lopsided battle. The zergs you were playing had relatively bad macro compared to you, and often made too many hydras and attacked off creep - that alone easily dies to chargelot/archon.
2. I said this earlier but you do look extremely weak early on while you're teching to mothership. Yes I do agree with you that once you get that mothership out, you can easily protect your 3rd, but by that time (11-12 min) it's not really a "fast" third anymore. I can get a safe 11-12 min third with a number of other builds, without being weak before the mothership pops out. I say this all the time (and not just in this thread) but a handful of void rays does not make you invunerable to roach/ling attacks. Lings kill shit so fast and can be reproduced and rallied faster than your voids can kill them. Roaches don't even die that fast to voids, there have been games where I've gone 2 stargate voids and still lost to a roach counter.
3. Now the mothership itself. A lot of its power comes from the fact that a lot of zergs just have never seen it before. The opponents in your replays speak for themselves. Some guy had never seen a vortex before, while another didn't even know motherships could be NPed. A lot of players overreacted by making a ton of corruptor (and no hive/BL tech) when you only had like 3 air units + a mothership, leaving their group army really weak.Trust me, when you start playing better players who actually know how to deal with mothership (spreading out units, not throwing everything into the vortex, using terrain to their advantage, not making hydras - lol), you might experience some frustrations yourself. I personally find it very risky to have your entire late game plan be based on the mothership. Vortexes aren't cheap, if you misplace 1 or somehow lose your mothership, you'll be dead before the energy regens or you can build another one... especially when your army is just chargelot/archon - a decent mid game composition, but not exactly the best end game composition.
4. Speaking of end game, do you have any replays of you facing broodlord and/or infestor usage? It's not like protoss was ever having trouble against roach/hydra/corruptor. I've lost many many mothership archon vs brood lord fights as long as the zerg isn't dumb enough to stick everything into the vortex. And what about other things, like ultras and/or banes? On the rare occasions where I've fought against ultras, I've found that they actually fare a bit better against vortex than other zerg units, since they don't die that fast and have some splash of their own. And while banelings by themselves or bane/ling will not get through your archons, banes in addition to other units (such as roach/infestor) can be dangerous since banes will still pretty much immediately clear all your zealots. Then you're left with roach vs archon...
Yes, I should have added your posts. Going to do that after this post. The main problem I had with your posts was that you seemed uninformed and unknowledgable about the zealot/archon composition against certain zerg compositions. For example, you said it gets shit on by mass roach ("Also, I don't like how you default to zealot/archon. Mass roach just shits on it."), which is ridiculous and makes me think you are unsure of how to play zealot/archon. In zealot/archon vs. roach games, you retreat as soon as your zealots die while massing up archons, your archons aren't actually supposed to take hits. So you would engage with something like 15 zealots and 5 archons and leave with 1-2 zealots and your 5 archons, slowly until the ratio of zealot : archon would be ~80ish% archon, which is when you can a-move mass roach and win.
As for your points;
1. Yes, in a 200/200 vs. 200/200 battle, the mothership's role is only to vortex the infestors and broodlords. Both infestors and brood lords fuck up your pathing (broodlings and fungals respectively), with a double vortex you can 100% get in range.
If he somehow has a magical spread that cannot be double vortexed efficiently, attack via another angle or attack path. For example on shakuras, if he has spread in a concave around the middle, attack from either of the two chokes. He can't keep re-arranging his units in this magical spread for every single angle, whereas you simply right click to another location and a-move from a different angle. As soon as his units ball up (they will), vortex.
2. I would love to see these mythical builds you are talking about. The closest I have gotten was 1gate FE into 3gate stargate into uber fast colossus and even that would get raped fairly easily from time to time when I went for a 3rd. Also, this build techs extremely heavy while getting a 3rd up quickly, it's not really fair to compare it with a FFE into blink stalker/sentry 3rd base.
The reason why you are safe against mass roach is because he has to bring an overseer which can be killed by your void ray/phoenix, so he -has- to bring anti-air. Perhaps there is some really strange mass queen timing build possible where you spread your creep directly to the Protoss' 3rd and use your queens to keep your overseers alive (transfuse/scare his air away, as well as attack the mothership). The question is: can you do this off 3 bases, or will you miss your timing window then? Remember, this is not a FFE, he can't neglect gas and go straight mass drone/hatchery due to possible 1base play.
3. Zealot/Archon is actually the best lategame composition if you have a good zealot : archon ratio, save ht + mass air (which is better but extremely tough to get rolling, unlike this build). You could try this build (get any zerg you feel is qualified enough), do exactly as I say and make only zealot/archon with your mothership and then a-move him with vortexes. If he has a magical spread, attack from another angle. Tell me how well it works.
4. It is not possible to get enough brood lords up, but I do have one rigged game (somewhere, I save all my replays) where we both decided not to attack until endgame. He actually told me to wait when I was 200/200 (this was with me playing safe, i.e. cannons, obs, 11min 3rd instead of 9min, while he played 0 unit mass drone) because he did not have enough brood lords up yet (200/200 timing hits around 15-16 minutes, you can invent your own timings to attack faster but I do not think it's necessary/optimal). Eventually he has the sickest non-realistic spread ever in the center of 200/200 brood lord/infestor/roach where I purposefully attack right into with zero vortexes (didn't have mothership in my control group, trolol) and we end up trading units. I warp in 30 zealots, right click them to all his bases on the minimap and he immediately dies (yes he remaxed on roach). Then I spend all my gas on templars, morph archons and they clean up.
Also, you can just retreat after his banelings have gone off and remax, he will not have another wave of banelings.
|
On October 06 2011 05:48 the p00n wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 03:25 Anihc wrote:
Hey way to add a "comments from blue posters" section and ignore my posts!
I finally got a chance to watch all your replays (I had only watched 1 of them when I commented earlier). I really do like your idea behind this build but I think I do have some extremely valid criticisms.
1. In pretty much every battle that occurred, you would have won without the mothership. Adding in the mothership and vortex just made it an even more lopsided battle. The zergs you were playing had relatively bad macro compared to you, and often made too many hydras and attacked off creep - that alone easily dies to chargelot/archon.
2. I said this earlier but you do look extremely weak early on while you're teching to mothership. Yes I do agree with you that once you get that mothership out, you can easily protect your 3rd, but by that time (11-12 min) it's not really a "fast" third anymore. I can get a safe 11-12 min third with a number of other builds, without being weak before the mothership pops out. I say this all the time (and not just in this thread) but a handful of void rays does not make you invunerable to roach/ling attacks. Lings kill shit so fast and can be reproduced and rallied faster than your voids can kill them. Roaches don't even die that fast to voids, there have been games where I've gone 2 stargate voids and still lost to a roach counter.
3. Now the mothership itself. A lot of its power comes from the fact that a lot of zergs just have never seen it before. The opponents in your replays speak for themselves. Some guy had never seen a vortex before, while another didn't even know motherships could be NPed. A lot of players overreacted by making a ton of corruptor (and no hive/BL tech) when you only had like 3 air units + a mothership, leaving their group army really weak.Trust me, when you start playing better players who actually know how to deal with mothership (spreading out units, not throwing everything into the vortex, using terrain to their advantage, not making hydras - lol), you might experience some frustrations yourself. I personally find it very risky to have your entire late game plan be based on the mothership. Vortexes aren't cheap, if you misplace 1 or somehow lose your mothership, you'll be dead before the energy regens or you can build another one... especially when your army is just chargelot/archon - a decent mid game composition, but not exactly the best end game composition.
4. Speaking of end game, do you have any replays of you facing broodlord and/or infestor usage? It's not like protoss was ever having trouble against roach/hydra/corruptor. I've lost many many mothership archon vs brood lord fights as long as the zerg isn't dumb enough to stick everything into the vortex. And what about other things, like ultras and/or banes? On the rare occasions where I've fought against ultras, I've found that they actually fare a bit better against vortex than other zerg units, since they don't die that fast and have some splash of their own. And while banelings by themselves or bane/ling will not get through your archons, banes in addition to other units (such as roach/infestor) can be dangerous since banes will still pretty much immediately clear all your zealots. Then you're left with roach vs archon... Yes, I should have added your posts. Going to do that after this post. The main problem I had with your posts was that you seemed uninformed and unknowledgable about the zealot/archon composition against certain zerg compositions. For example, you said it gets shit on by mass roach ("Also, I don't like how you default to zealot/archon. Mass roach just shits on it."), which is ridiculous and makes me think you are unsure of how to play zealot/archon. In zealot/archon vs. roach games, you retreat as soon as your zealots die while massing up archons, your archons aren't actually supposed to take hits. So you would engage with something like 15 zealots and 5 archons and leave with 1-2 zealots and your 5 archons, slowly until the ratio of zealot : archon would be ~80ish% archon, which is when you can a-move mass roach and win. As for your points; 1. Yes, in a 200/200 vs. 200/200 battle, the mothership's role is only to vortex the infestors and broodlords. Both infestors and brood lords fuck up your pathing (broodlings and fungals respectively), with a double vortex you can 100% get in range. If he somehow has a magical spread that cannot be double vortexed efficiently, attack via another angle or attack path. For example on shakuras, if he has spread in a concave around the middle, attack from either of the two chokes. He can't keep re-arranging his units in this magical spread for every single angle, whereas you simply right click to another location and a-move from a different angle. As soon as his units ball up (they will), vortex. 2. I would love to see these mythical builds you are talking about. The closest I have gotten was 1gate FE into 3gate stargate into uber fast colossus and even that would get raped fairly easily from time to time when I went for a 3rd. Also, this build techs extremely heavy while getting a 3rd up quickly, it's not really fair to compare it with a FFE into blink stalker/sentry 3rd base. The reason why you are safe against mass roach is because he has to bring an overseer which can be killed by your void ray/phoenix, so he -has- to bring anti-air. Perhaps there is some really strange mass queen timing build possible where you spread your creep directly to the Protoss' 3rd and use your queens to keep your overseers alive (transfuse/scare his air away, as well as attack the mothership). The question is: can you do this off 3 bases, or will you miss your timing window then? Remember, this is not a FFE, he can't neglect gas and go straight mass drone/hatchery due to possible 1base play. 3. Zealot/Archon is actually the best lategame composition if you have a good zealot : archon ratio, save ht + mass air (which is better but extremely tough to get rolling, unlike this build). You could try this build (get any zerg you feel is qualified enough), do exactly as I say and make only zealot/archon with your mothership and then a-move him with vortexes. If he has a magical spread, attack from another angle. Tell me how well it works. 4. It is not possible to get enough brood lords up, but I do have one rigged game (somewhere, I save all my replays) where we both decided not to attack until endgame. He actually told me to wait when I was 200/200 (this was with me playing safe, i.e. cannons, obs, 11min 3rd instead of 9min, while he played 0 unit mass drone) because he did not have enough brood lords up yet (200/200 timing hits around 15-16 minutes, you can invent your own timings to attack faster but I do not think it's necessary/optimal). Eventually he has the sickest non-realistic spread ever in the center of 200/200 brood lord/infestor/roach where I purposefully attack right into with zero vortexes (didn't have mothership in my control group, trolol) and we end up trading units. I warp in 30 zealots, right click them to all his bases on the minimap and he immediately dies (yes he remaxed on roach). Then I spend all my gas on templars, morph archons and they clean up. Also, you can just retreat after his banelings have gone off and remax, he will not have another wave of banelings.
I never make uninformed posts. I stay out of topics that I have no direct experience with. My posts may not necessarily be the "best" answer, and there may be other different "correct" answers - but anytime I write something, you can bet that I have a ton of experience at the highest level of play backing it up. I have always been a big fan of motherships, and have always used them in my PvZs for the past year. Same goes for chargelot/archon. In fact currently I'm working on a chargelot/archon build and I'm using it a ton in all my practice, ladder, and tournament games.
So as for the roach vs chargelot/archon debate - yes of course I understand that if you're not going to win a battle, you retreat, especially with your expensive units. But what if the zerg attacks you? As a composition, roaches are just very cost effective when fighting chargelot/archon. I don't think you can argue this.
It doesn't matter what angle you attack the broodlords/infestors from since you're at melee range (1-3) and the zerg is at sieging range (9 from fungal+BL). The point of the spread is just so that not everything gets sucked up by 1 vortex. I really am not convinced at all that chargelot/archon/mothership is the ultimate end game protoss army. If your argument is that you can max and threaten/attack the zerg before he gets infinity brood lords, then fine. That's perfectly reasonable. But as it stands I don't see any replays against any sort of hive tech play and I'd like to see those if possible.
These "mythical" builds I'm referring to that allow you to get a safe and relatively early 3rd are robo-based builds. IMO Stargate is overrated, robo gives you a lot more power for the money. But that's another discussion.
When I talk about mass roach, obviously I'm not talking about roach and only roach when you have a mothership out. But roaches should be the core of the zerg army when fighting zealot/archon, not hydras or corruptors, which is the case in a lot of those replays. Hydras are horrible, everytime I see hydras in PvZ when I go mothership and/or chargelot/archon it's like automatic gg free win for me.
|
How do you want the zerg to spread his army? Could you perhaps go to the unit tester and post an example screenshot? Because I don't see how you are supposed to spread it and then re-spread it when you attack from another angle.
|
On October 06 2011 06:40 the p00n wrote:
How do you want the zerg to spread his army? Could you perhaps go to the unit tester and post an example screenshot? Because I don't see how you are supposed to spread it and then re-spread it when you attack from another angle.
You just keep your group of broodlords in separate groups. You also keep the Infestors behind the Broodlords and out of range of nasty things.
I agree with rsvp on all his points.
I myself think that Immortal/HT/Voidray with a few Archons is the best end game composition. I can see Adding in a Mothership a really great way to accent your army, but I don't think Archon/Mothership is at all a good end game composition.
Though I still don't know where Carriers fit in in all this :/
|
On October 06 2011 06:51 CecilSunkure wrote:
Though I still don't know where Carriers fit in in all this :/
Silly Protoss, Carriers are for BW.
|
On October 06 2011 06:40 the p00n wrote:
How do you want the zerg to spread his army? Could you perhaps go to the unit tester and post an example screenshot? Because I don't see how you are supposed to spread it and then re-spread it when you attack from another angle.
My point is that you don't need to respread the army. Take your example on shakuras - if he just moves to the middle of the map, he can hit your 3rd as well as cut off every passage in the middle. If you attack from one angle, he doesn't need to move his entire army to defend that angle, because as soon as you get in range to attack him, you're putting yourself in range of the majority of his army without him even having to move anything.
Anyway maybe I'm coming off a bit wrong, I'm not trying to say this build sucks and doesn't work because I actually believe quite the opposite. I know how strong mothership can be, and I know how strong chargelot/archon can be. I guess my comments can be boiled down to these 3:
1. This build is weak right before you get the mothership. The weakness is compounded by the fact that you're going for chargelot/archon at the same time, and you don't have a robo (why? because obs always increases safety, immortal helps a ton against early roach aggression, even more so than a void ray at times, and if you scout 2 base hydra all in its easy to get colossus out in time to stop it). I don't really think this is arguable. This doesn't mean the build is bad or doesn't work, and there are definitely things you can do to increase your safety, but it's certainly a weakness.
2. How does this fare against solid macro style, roach-based play? I think that chargelot/archon even with a mothership might have a bit of trouble, but I don't know for sure. At least in my experience the mothership/vortex is a very fragile thing and doesn't always guarantee victory. I guess in particular I'm thinking of roach/infestor. Fungal is great against zealot/archon, infested terrans provide AA, and there's always the threat of neural so you can't always get off the "perfect" vortex. You could be right in that vortex solves all mid-game problems. So this is arguable, and I'd like to see more replays (by zergs who aren't like wtf is this?? a mothership?? what do I do now??)
3. The end game scenario, when you face the zerg deathball of infestor/bl/corruptor. This is probably a moot point though, since you can put enough pressure on the zerg before it gets to that stage. Let's not argue this one, unless you have replays of zerg going hive tech against this.
|
I just got smashed on ladder using this, high eu master... I think if opponent scout well they are just going to roll over you, I got hit by a mix of roach/hydra/infestor...
|
On October 06 2011 07:07 eYeball wrote:
I just got smashed on ladder using this, high eu master... I think if opponent scout well they are just going to roll over you, I got hit by a mix of roach/hydra/infestor...
Post the replay, otherwise it's not really useful to post D:
|
On October 06 2011 06:59 Trusty wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 06:51 CecilSunkure wrote:
Though I still don't know where Carriers fit in in all this :/
Silly Protoss, Carriers are for BW.
Dude you really need to try carriers. They are totally imba in PvZ. Just have HT with storm to defend against corruptors and you're good.
|
On October 06 2011 07:09 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 06:59 Trusty wrote:On October 06 2011 06:51 CecilSunkure wrote:
Though I still don't know where Carriers fit in in all this :/
Silly Protoss, Carriers are for BW. Dude you really need to try carriers. They are totally imba in PvZ. Just have HT with storm to defend against corruptors and you're good.
Haha yeah, same in PvT, just the problem is when they don't let you sit there massing carriers
|
On October 06 2011 07:13 Trusty wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 07:09 Anihc wrote:On October 06 2011 06:59 Trusty wrote:On October 06 2011 06:51 CecilSunkure wrote:
Though I still don't know where Carriers fit in in all this :/
Silly Protoss, Carriers are for BW. Dude you really need to try carriers. They are totally imba in PvZ. Just have HT with storm to defend against corruptors and you're good. Haha yeah, same in PvT, just the problem is when they don't let you sit there massing carriers
No... PvT is completely different and carriers do not work there. First of all there's EMP, second of all vikings have 9 range compared to corruptor's 6, which means it's much easier for them to "snipe" carriers while dodging storms or not even getting in range of storms. And lastly, mass BCs actually beat mass carriers. Yes this has come from personal experience :p
|
On October 06 2011 07:16 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 07:13 Trusty wrote:On October 06 2011 07:09 Anihc wrote:On October 06 2011 06:59 Trusty wrote:On October 06 2011 06:51 CecilSunkure wrote:
Though I still don't know where Carriers fit in in all this :/
Silly Protoss, Carriers are for BW. Dude you really need to try carriers. They are totally imba in PvZ. Just have HT with storm to defend against corruptors and you're good. Haha yeah, same in PvT, just the problem is when they don't let you sit there massing carriers No... PvT is completely different and carriers do not work there. First of all there's EMP, second of all vikings have 9 range compared to corruptor's 6, which means it's much easier for them to "snipe" carriers while dodging storms or not even getting in range of storms. And lastly, mass BCs actually beat mass carriers. Yes this has come from personal experience :p
Silly Protoss, Carriers are for BW Terran***** :D?
|
i'm just plat zerg, but i have a question, since nobody mentions it.
What is with Queens? Since you force AA, i respond often with queens and just one spore/base. if you protect your Overseers with them from getting sniped from the voidrays/phoenix, cant u do the trick with the remaining roaches? and what about fast creep spread, how to deny this?
|
@rsvp: I 'only' play at the high master/low GM level (I guess it's relatively high, but not for 'proving' a build, especially when the surprise effect may have an effect as well. Combine this with that I am probably better than most of my opponent's in ladder (I play whenever I want to and whatever I want to, if it's 6:00 AM no sleep + drunk I might decide it's a good idea to offrace and play command center first every single game. An example was the first replay I provided against zued, which was somewhere around 5 AM with me having around 15 beers).
If anyone wants to play with me on EU (and you are very very high masters or GM), I can play both the zerg and protoss side of the match-up, and we can explore this more.
@eYeball: please post the replay.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
