EPThttp://drop.sc/41466
Worked pretty well however the zerg thought i was rushing at the beginning so made a bunch of spines, then sat on 3 bases for very long, I think he was just confused and didnt know how to respond.
[G]HUARGH's 90+% winrate PvZ mothership build - Page 12
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flyguy
United States45 Posts
http://drop.sc/41466 Worked pretty well however the zerg thought i was rushing at the beginning so made a bunch of spines, then sat on 3 bases for very long, I think he was just confused and didnt know how to respond. | ||
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the p00n
Netherlands615 Posts
On October 07 2011 22:08 pycho wrote: hes right, zerg with a 4-5min third on shakuras will be on 160 supply roach/hydra at 11-12 while u have mothership 2 archons 10 zealots max, even if u vortex it u just do not have enough to kill it, and you know, not everyone runs all of their army into a vortex, and pretty much half of that army can kill what u have - this strat only works one time vs zergs who did not experienced it before and dont know what to do against it, u will not defeat any high level zerg with it more than one time. No he's not right because I can go double nexus first and have a much bigger army at 11-12 while he only has 160 supply roach/hydra. | ||
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TiTanIum_
Brazil1335 Posts
Do you have any thoughts.on that? | ||
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Alsn
Sweden995 Posts
On October 08 2011 03:25 TiTanIum_ wrote: I can't speak for the OP, but by the time the mothership starts you should definitely be pretty close to saturated on 2 base anyway. If the postulations by the OP is correct that the mothership guarantees the protoss his third at a relatively early time, then I'd say it's worth it.I really liked this build, but i guess I should wait to make the mothership after my 3rd is finished. Waiting 180 seconds without making any probes from 2 nexi that early in the game, seems sort of a cheese. Do you have any thoughts.on that? | ||
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the p00n
Netherlands615 Posts
On October 08 2011 03:25 TiTanIum_ wrote: I really liked this build, but i guess I should wait to make the mothership after my 3rd is finished. Waiting 180 seconds without making any probes from 2 nexi that early in the game, seems sort of a cheese. Do you have any thoughts.on that? You can do whatever variation you want, but results may vary (from my experience they tend to fair worse, but if there wasn't any testing this build would not have existed in the first place so I encourage trying new things). The mothership is used to get your 3rd base up, if you have a build that gets the 3rd base up safely and then allows you to transition into a mothership then yes, but the later you get the mothership the unsafer it generally is unless you get it really really late (20+ mins when on 4 or 5 bases). | ||
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WArped
United Kingdom4845 Posts
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flyguy
United States45 Posts
It was too hard to defend all 3 bases when you have mutas in 1mineral line and lings in the other. Here is the game http://drop.sc/41517 | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
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NtroP
United States174 Posts
I'm sure that his void ray miscontrol cost him the game, prompting you to point it out. | ||
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vertigo1
Scotland174 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + whitera just owned the hell out of idra with this style of play in the lategame of game 3 of their group match | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
Game 1: I try to set up my third. It goes up, but then he attacks with corruptor + roach (he had scouted my fleet beacon with an overseer). I use the vortex to try to save my mothership since he had enough corruptors to easily deal with my handful of phoenix/void. I'm safe for now, but as soon as the vortex ends he runs me over. I don't have enough AA to deal with the corruptors and no vortex/not enough troops to deal with the roaches. Game 2: We both max to 200/200. I attack with mothership/chargelot/archon, he has mostly roach with some hydra. I throw some vortexes but he has his army spread out very well. He does not throw everything into vortex so when it ends, he has my army surrounded instead of me having his army surrounded. I get raped. Game 3: I get my third up for awhile and have a decent sized chargelot/archon ball. He attacks my third with a big roach/infestor army. He doesn't even have overseers, but uses fungal for detection. I vortex and throw most of my army in, but he also has his army spread out and doesn't throw everything in. It looks like I win and he retreats with the rest of his army, but comes back a bit later with reinforcements. I don't have a vortex now, and my chargelot/archon dies to roach/infestor. I know I could have played better but it seems like some of my concerns were reaffirmed - mostly that roaches still beat chargelot/archon and the mothership/vortex can only do so much, especially when your opponent plays smart and knows how to deal with vortex. I don't think this is a bad build but would like to see more replays of this build handling strong macro/roach play. I guess one thing different I do is that I FFE instead of 1 gate expo. That could help explain in games 1 and 3 how the zergs managed to have a bigger army than usual since I don't put any pressure on the zerg besides the void ray. But it doesn't really affect game 2. | ||
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the p00n
Netherlands615 Posts
That being said, I think a FFE is the silliest thing you can do against zerg. Then again, all the pros are doing it, so what do I know? | ||
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ZaloMonkada
United States86 Posts
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BeeNu
615 Posts
On October 08 2011 18:39 Anihc wrote: So I went and tried out this build (all games are different opponents on EU ladder). Game 1: I try to set up my third. It goes up, but then he attacks with corruptor + roach (he had scouted my fleet beacon with an overseer). I use the vortex to try to save my mothership since he had enough corruptors to easily deal with my handful of phoenix/void. I'm safe for now, but as soon as the vortex ends he runs me over. I don't have enough AA to deal with the corruptors and no vortex/not enough troops to deal with the roaches. Game 2: We both max to 200/200. I attack with mothership/chargelot/archon, he has mostly roach with some hydra. I throw some vortexes but he has his army spread out very well. He does not throw everything into vortex so when it ends, he has my army surrounded instead of me having his army surrounded. I get raped. Game 3: I get my third up for awhile and have a decent sized chargelot/archon ball. He attacks my third with a big roach/infestor army. He doesn't even have overseers, but uses fungal for detection. I vortex and throw most of my army in, but he also has his army spread out and doesn't throw everything in. It looks like I win and he retreats with the rest of his army, but comes back a bit later with reinforcements. I don't have a vortex now, and my chargelot/archon dies to roach/infestor. I know I could have played better but it seems like some of my concerns were reaffirmed - mostly that roaches still beat chargelot/archon and the mothership/vortex can only do so much, especially when your opponent plays smart and knows how to deal with vortex. I don't think this is a bad build but would like to see more replays of this build handling strong macro/roach play. I guess one thing different I do is that I FFE instead of 1 gate expo. That could help explain in games 1 and 3 how the zergs managed to have a bigger army than usual since I don't put any pressure on the zerg besides the void ray. But it doesn't really affect game 2. It seems to me that the majority of the power from this build comes from being able to establish a 3rd and 4th expansion relatively safely and essentially setting you up to build any kind of late game composition you want. As a Zerg player it seems to me most Zergs would try to respond to this with some kind of a mostly ground-oriented army of say Roach/Hydra with maybe Corruptors or Infestors, I feel like you could really exploit this if you scout them out to be certain what kind of army they are building. Like, what about massing up a large Immortal/Zealot army with sprinkling in High Templar/Archons? This would probably be fairly weak to a large number of Broodlords but the threat of Archon Toilet and maybe retaining a few Void Rays throughout the game could scare them away from this approach. I'm mostly just theory crafting here but I think this whole Mothership expand build has a ton of potential. | ||
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Darkomicron
Netherlands216 Posts
1) It works wonder vs roach/hydra passive players. If they don't attack you can upgrade and build the perfect army to vortex and rape them. Pure roach hydra is NOT the answer to an archon toilet xD 2) It works pretty well versus mutaling, but you HAVE to catch the mutalisks in a vortex or at least kill them if they try to take down your mothership. Too many mutas will still mean a lot of harassment and eco loss. 3) This build is not that good versus aggressive zergs. They all take overseers and keep them behind their army, your army is too small to beat a hugh roach hydra ball if they attack. Even if I vortex I often times lose a lot of archons and that slowly leads to losing a game. 3) This build is good versus infestors but you can't lose the mothership. If you do lose it, you're in for a hard time because fungal just nullifies the zealots and makes your army so vulnerable to long range fire from roaches or hydras. Neural on your archons sucks too. Mothership is key to vortex them in time. 4) Corruptors are great, you will lose your mothership so you have to vortex well and fast, but after losing your mothership their ground army is a lot smaller than usually. The corruptors are useless and you can still push and win. 5) I find it very hard to get a 10 minute third up, the mothership can come out at 11 minutes and even then my army is so small... I often die to a 2 base push from a zerg because this build is so bad at holding agression, what's a mothership going to do versus 30 and a few overseers? Your army is not big enough to hold aggression. Once you get your third up and ~12+ archons you are in a great position. From that point on scouting will tell you what to do (voids for BL's, mix in colossi/stalker vs roach hydra corruptor... etc). But often times I just enter that phase with a disadvantage or I enter it later (13 minutes, which isn't really fast). How do you survive a 2base roach push for instance, and still get a 'fast' 3rd? | ||
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justnoob.br
Brazil83 Posts
nerf ahead perhaps? =( | ||
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Keilah
731 Posts
On October 08 2011 18:39 Anihc wrote: So I went and tried out this build (all games are different opponents on EU ladder). Game 1: I try to set up my third. It goes up, but then he attacks with corruptor + roach (he had scouted my fleet beacon with an overseer). I use the vortex to try to save my mothership since he had enough corruptors to easily deal with my handful of phoenix/void. I'm safe for now, but as soon as the vortex ends he runs me over. I don't have enough AA to deal with the corruptors and no vortex/not enough troops to deal with the roaches. Game 2: We both max to 200/200. I attack with mothership/chargelot/archon, he has mostly roach with some hydra. I throw some vortexes but he has his army spread out very well. He does not throw everything into vortex so when it ends, he has my army surrounded instead of me having his army surrounded. I get raped. Game 3: I get my third up for awhile and have a decent sized chargelot/archon ball. He attacks my third with a big roach/infestor army. He doesn't even have overseers, but uses fungal for detection. I vortex and throw most of my army in, but he also has his army spread out and doesn't throw everything in. It looks like I win and he retreats with the rest of his army, but comes back a bit later with reinforcements. I don't have a vortex now, and my chargelot/archon dies to roach/infestor. I know I could have played better but it seems like some of my concerns were reaffirmed - mostly that roaches still beat chargelot/archon and the mothership/vortex can only do so much, especially when your opponent plays smart and knows how to deal with vortex. I don't think this is a bad build but would like to see more replays of this build handling strong macro/roach play. I guess one thing different I do is that I FFE instead of 1 gate expo. That could help explain in games 1 and 3 how the zergs managed to have a bigger army than usual since I don't put any pressure on the zerg besides the void ray. But it doesn't really affect game 2. Well OP likes zlot/archon but that doesn't mean it's your only choice. Once you have 3 bases it's pretty easy to build whatever army you want, right? The core of the build is gateway expand -> mothership -> 3rd and the rest is up to you unless I'm mistaken. | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On October 10 2011 09:48 Keilah wrote: Well OP likes zlot/archon but that doesn't mean it's your only choice. Once you have 3 bases it's pretty easy to build whatever army you want, right? The core of the build is gateway expand -> mothership -> 3rd and the rest is up to you unless I'm mistaken. If the goal of this build is to just get a 3rd, then ok it's a decent build but it wouldn't be my favorite way to get a 3rd up... | ||
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Keilah
731 Posts
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On October 10 2011 09:54 Keilah wrote: pray tell, what would be your favorite? I use a lot of robo based builds to get a quick 3rd up safely at around the 10 minute mark. Sometimes I'd just go heavy sentry/stalker/immortal, other times I'll go quick colo. If you want reps I released a small PvZ rep pack recently and I go robo -> fast 3rd in the majority of them. In the past I've also gone for a fast 6 gate +1 that allows me to take a 3rd behind it as well. I believe there are replays of this somewhere on this site as well. Recently I've been working on a stargate/chargelot/archon build that again allows me to put pressure on the zerg and expand behind it, usually before 11 minutes. Like I've said before, one issue I have with this build is that it really relies on the surprise or wtf factor. A lot of people just don't know how to react properly to the mothership. I've been using motherships in my PvZs for the past year and I've noticed that my mothership usage has gotten more and more defendable/counterable. Am I sucking more? No, zerg players are just adapting better. The other thing I don't like about it is that you can't really put any early game pressure on the zerg. So no pressure + not the "safest" or "earliest" 3rd = cool build but not favorite :p | ||
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