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Since the infestor nerf, a lot of zergs feel lost, especially those of us who depended on neural to negate larger units such as colossi or archons. The fungal damage nerf isnt the most exciting thing either.
This seems to lead most people back to the average, "max out, a click, remax" playstyle.
Infestors aren't useless. after the nerf. I think this promotes a different way to use them, especially geared more towards what the developers had more in mind in their creation.
Originally fungal lasted 8 seconds, and its strength wasn't in the damage but in the stun.
So I'm thinking that zergs need to start using them differently. Zerg players have just been massing a ridiculous amount of infestors with just enough units to cover them. From here they chain fungal until things die from the massive damage and ability to keep powerful units away.
So why not use infestors more sparingly? With this we could use more supply on units that give more brawn to the zerg force. More roaches, hydras (if you find a game where the situation calls), and ultralisks. I think that infestors should be used for the rooting aspect of fungal and for harass. neural can be used to catch things out of position, but still is probably the weakest of the three infestors spells now.
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I've seen it be very effective making timing pushes with 4-5 infestors using infested terrans and roach/ling onto a protoss or terran's third or even to break their natural.
Infested terrans are pretty damn strong and fungal is still just about as strong as before (like 6 less dmg per fungal). Try being more aggressive and don't use them to turtle because then end up giving you very few options if you have kept your roach/infestor ball all game when they push out with a strong t2-t3 ball
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It's actually pretty simple. Versus toss, just don't use neural parasite, get less infestors and supplement your engagements with baneling carpet bombs. Those things are as evil as all heck and only more so with a fungal root.
As for terran, I really never saw much neural parasite against them, mainly because your primary targets either outrange the infestors anyways or are killed more easily with either zerglings or broodlords.
The infestor change is actually quite minor in hindsight. All it means is you just need to get a baneling nest and about 4 drops worth of banelings. Fungal growth is also still a high-damage spell.
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I always thought of fungal to be OP. I mean its plague + Ensnare on stim. I don't get the reasoning behind the stun if someone can explain that to me, I would appreciate it. Thx
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On September 28 2011 11:29 wDDelete wrote:
I always thought of fungal to be OP. I mean its plague + Ensnare on stim. I don't get the reasoning behind the stun if someone can explain that to me, I would appreciate it. Thx
uh, thats a gross exaggeration. Plague brought most units down 1 hp easily. FG as a damage spell is nothing compared to plague.
The reasoning behind the stun was probably that zerg relies a lot more on low ranged units than the other races. Our highest range units are the broodlord, which can only be gotten at tier 3, and the hydralisk, which is usually a situational unit. Everything else can be outranged by tier 1 units of the other races. With things like FF and stim kiting, Zergs need a spell that can help them close the distance
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On September 28 2011 11:29 wDDelete wrote:
I always thought of fungal to be OP. I mean its plague + Ensnare on stim. I don't get the reasoning behind the stun if someone can explain that to me, I would appreciate it. Thx
Fungal has a low range, so after you fungal stalkers, they could just blink on top of your infestors and you lose all your infestors (lotsa gas+ build time). Also, zerg is almost entirely low range, you need something to set up surrounds, or protoss ff's and lols as it moves away. Also, protoss armies are much better than zerg armies without fungal.
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I don't get what prevents infestor usage. Infestors are still very strong versus any protoss ball. It is true you can no longer go only infestor ling for the whole game now because as colossus count get higher, Sniping becomes easier. However, fungal growth is still extremely powerful. Infested terran can still decimate a "quick" 3rd. Neutral parasite can still demolish immortal/archon based army or "low" colossus count army.
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Artosis mentioned on his stream that zergs should try to use the infestor as if it weren't patched. They will find it works pretty much the same way, and is still really powerful, but they will just have to tweak their play in certain situations.
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I am sure Ling Infestor still works, you just have to transition out of it much earilier into either super fast ultra/broodlord or baneling drop then tier 3 
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It's still a strong unit good at pretty much every aspect of the game. I don't see enough Zergs just take 4 Infestors and run them off to harass expansions. 4 Infestors' worth of Terrans can snipe a CC/Hatch/Nexus very easily, and if their army pulls in to kill them all, you've lost absolutely nothing. It's infuriating on larger maps with lots of crannies to burrow in.
The rest of its roles haven't really changed either, except I suppose Protoss can now actually build Colossi and expect to have them shoot the Zerg during fights, which I think is a good thing.
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pretty much use it as if it wasnt nerfed so long as u dont go neural reliant before (advice given from artosis while on stream)
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I think the neural nerf can be overcome by smart use of infestors burrow movement ability and good map positioning for engagements. High ground positions are better is probably the easiest advice to give if you know what I mean.
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Infestors are basically there for two things now, fungal to setup a baneling drop, and IT dumps for harass. Fungal +baneling is just gross. In ZvP If you cut back on infestors, get a couple corruptors, and use fungal + corruption+ banelings to destroy the colossi deathball in lieu of mass neural parasite which I think a lot of us used before.
The way I look at Infestors now is that they are a lot like siege tanks that only hit units. Try to put them up above where you're going to fight so you can rain down a few fungals. Use overlord vision to huck ITs over cliffs into peoples mains or fungal mineral lines. The infestation pit is still the gateway to Hive, so try to think of ways to incorporate them to support Ultralisks or Broodlords.
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You should be using them the way they SHOULD have been made for in the first place; efficient support spell casters, NOT the only gas unit you make because they're so strong they effectively counter every single unit in the game. Make less of them and use your gas for other units.
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Pretty much the way you used them before: To root and give you the extra dps other units can't give you. The only real annoying thing now is that neural is pretty bad vs Mech and Protoss players dont even need the skill to right click with their colossi on your infestors (but infestors were already bad vs colossi before).
I dont think a lot has changed, they are still a mediocre option, nothing strong like a tank, colossus or broodlord...
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On September 28 2011 12:17 Scare_Crow wrote:
It's still a strong unit good at pretty much every aspect of the game. I don't see enough Zergs just take 4 Infestors and run them off to harass expansions. 4 Infestors' worth of Terrans can snipe a CC/Hatch/Nexus very easily, and if their army pulls in to kill them all, you've lost absolutely nothing. It's infuriating on larger maps with lots of crannies to burrow in.
The rest of its roles haven't really changed either, except I suppose Protoss can now actually build Colossi and expect to have them shoot the Zerg during fights, which I think is a good thing.
Because anyone with a brain will put a cannon/turret or two and completely nullify it. And what? Any decent toss could already snipe the infestors, now neural is just useless.
They're basically just for fungals/its now. If you're getting a decent infestor count don't let toss get a decent colossus count or you lose and don't let terran get a 200/200 mech army or you lose. Honestly infestors are pretty trash in the late game for anything other than keeping things in place.
Infestors should be used aggressively for the most part, they just don't contribute enough late game to account for the gas you spent. Late game they're there to keep your BLs alive a second or two longer and let your ultras actually hit things.
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I'm finding a good safety zone in using about 5 infestors with ling roach, its great against any gateway composition including storm but really falls to shit with collosi.
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Meh, I already prefered banelings for my late game AOE damage. There was a honeymoon period after the initial infestor change where everyone was trying infestors, but the unit was already very overrated especially on TL.
On September 28 2011 12:07 E.H Eager wrote:
Artosis mentioned on his stream that zergs should try to use the infestor as if it weren't patched. They will find it works pretty much the same way, and is still really powerful, but they will just have to tweak their play in certain situations.
Do you mean before this patch or the previous one? Honeslty I wish we could get the old infestor back, but it just doesn't work the same anymore. It doesn't shut down air harrass, it isn't nearly as good as an anti air (which is partly why there are so many mutas now in ZvZ), and now neural has pretty much no use either.
Infestors were already standard and very strong in ZvZ and ZvT, and mostly what I liked is that 3-4 infestors as a support for your army was very helpful.
Now with the new infestor you either mass them like it's the only unit you have (and then they're close to being OP) or you're better off entirely without them.
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you press f.
Then make a zillion IT.
Like before.
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roach/ling with baneling drops and make a just a few infestors for fungal?
I unno, if I still played Zerg I think I'd at least give that a worthy effort.
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On September 28 2011 15:09 Vlare wrote:
you press f.
Then make a zillion IT.
Like before.
do you mean if you want to lose to Terran or if you want to lose to Protoss?
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I have never been a big fan of NP, and always just used FG, which have worked pretty darn good for me, and I still use Z in the same way, a shitload of Roaches, 5-6 Infestors, some corrupts-> BL, and then just ROFLstomp over your enemy... But that's maybe just me, I dunno
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As a protoss I need to make a mention of mutas. Use them. They're good. This will buy you time for economy and to get a mass of infestors with energy. It also lends toward toss making lots of stalkers which I think fungal is very good against. It also pushes toss away from colossus, making the pain of lost np range less significant.
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On September 28 2011 13:31 darkscream wrote:
Infestors are basically there for two things now, fungal to setup a baneling drop, and IT dumps for harass. Fungal +baneling is just gross. In ZvP If you cut back on infestors, get a couple corruptors, and use fungal + corruption+ banelings to destroy the colossi deathball in lieu of mass neural parasite which I think a lot of us used before.
The way I look at Infestors now is that they are a lot like siege tanks that only hit units. Try to put them up above where you're going to fight so you can rain down a few fungals. Use overlord vision to huck ITs over cliffs into peoples mains or fungal mineral lines. The infestation pit is still the gateway to Hive, so try to think of ways to incorporate them to support Ultralisks or Broodlords.
Throwing ITs at tanks from LG to HG is fun! :D
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Honestly i think you're correct OP. I don't think the original idea blizzard had behind the infestor was for it to be massed, its a powerful support caster and should probably be used as such. Before the patch i would see people just building 30-40 infestors and just kind of facepalm (destiney influenced no doubt).
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On September 28 2011 12:07 E.H Eager wrote:
Artosis mentioned on his stream that zergs should try to use the infestor as if it weren't patched. They will find it works pretty much the same way, and is still really powerful, but they will just have to tweak their play in certain situations.
o.O lol
Neural on big, expensive units is obviously a lot worse with the range nerf.
It takes 1-2 more fungals to kill any Protoss unit now.
Its a huge change to the ZvP matchup. I don't think its a bad one, though.
Fungal is still great for setting up baneling drops, and still plays an invaluable support role in supplementing Broods.
I also think infested terrans are a great tool, and have been having quite a bit of fun when using them to break into expansions.
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I don't understand why zergs seem to be reacting so childishly to this patch. Nerf my infestors? Fine I'll completely change up my playstyle and go back to losing and crying imba every game!
This actually sucks for me when I play terran because im not seeing zergs who play ling-infestor anymore, and that style was extremely easy to abuse.
Play infestors like before. They're really not much different. Unless you're actually massing infestors like destiny does, you wont see a noticeable change.
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I'm a Zerg player and I was never really happy with the original change to decrease the root and increase the DPS (it did help out Z a lot, no doubt about it). FG went from being a spell that allowed you to control the engagement (like forcefield) to a damage dealing spell (like Storm). Unfortunately, the root aspect was still there and the increased damage and chain fungal combination was way too strong.
I would much rather have the old fungal back. If we had the old fungal back we could Baneling bomb easier to deal with deathballs (rather than rely on the DPS from the spell itself), stall pushes more easily, punish players who use a single control group for a whole army and more importantly I believe Neural can also be reverted. I don't see how the range on neural was ever a problem up to this point and I don't even bother researching it anymore to be honest.
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On September 28 2011 11:29 wDDelete wrote:
I always thought of fungal to be OP. I mean its plague + Ensnare on stim. I don't get the reasoning behind the stun if someone can explain that to me, I would appreciate it. Thx
The beauty of starcraft is OP vs OP
BW: z - Darkswarm/consume + Lurkers, t- irradiate or 3-3 mech, p - psi strom
SC2: z - fungal, t - mules+marines+marauders (lol) or ghost snipe, p - protoss deathball?
The fun is to see who can use their op units the fastest! If you split your mariens correctly and have proper tank support, you dont need to worry about the OP stun when fungaled haha 
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On September 29 2011 02:29 HyperLink wrote:
...I would much rather have the old fungal back. If we had the old fungal back we could Baneling bomb easier to deal with deathballs (rather than rely on the DPS from the spell itself), stall pushes more easily, punish players who use a single control group for a whole army and more importantly I believe Neural can also be reverted. I don't see how the range on neural was ever a problem up to this point and I don't even bother researching it anymore to be honest.
I agree completely. I went from using NP to counter terran mech and colossi, to using them for expansion harass and army support. They're still a strong unit and I know they are trying to make things as balanced as possible, but the win-rate in ZvT before patch 1.4 was almost 40/60 and ZvP wasn't much better (43/57 i think). Wonder how it's changed now?
Battle.net balance as of 9/13/11
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The problem wasn't the fungal nerf. I gladly accepted that.
What I have a problem with is the NP nerf that I think was wholly unneeded and makes Collosi much too powerful.
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On September 29 2011 01:43 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 12:07 E.H Eager wrote:
Artosis mentioned on his stream that zergs should try to use the infestor as if it weren't patched. They will find it works pretty much the same way, and is still really powerful, but they will just have to tweak their play in certain situations. o.O lol Neural on big, expensive units is obviously a lot worse with the range nerf. It takes 1-2 more fungals to kill any Protoss unit now. Its a huge change to the ZvP matchup. I don't think its a bad one, though. Fungal is still great for setting up baneling drops, and still plays an invaluable support role in supplementing Broods. I also think infested terrans are a great tool, and have been having quite a bit of fun when using them to break into expansions.
This is true. What I mainly meant was that the infestor is still a great unit, but you cannot just rely on it as the backbone of your army; you need to use it to make the rest of you army work.
I totally agree with what you are saying, and all the things that you mentioned were things people did pre-patch. The only major change is that you can't rely on infestors to take on collosi.
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I've been adopting more of Destiny's hit-squad style:
burrow and spawn infested terran in multiple spots/bases while moving in with your army. Either your army's toast, but their economy's toast, or they're toast AND their economy's toast. :D
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so now that zerg gets a nerf back to where we were before hand, zerg is lost? zerg was winning before hand and according to the previously posted stats on race vs race win percentage zerg was still winning, by a lesser margin yes, but still winning. Now zerg can't 3 base ling infestor into BL, they can't just do whatever they want then they complain the toss can? Zerg should not feel lost, zerg is still in a great position, the infestor is not as powerful as before. Also the fact that zerg can take control of a ton of units of the opponent, the power units of course, is absolutely rediculous. People complained about insta-storm, how bout insta-no-more-power-units, if you take it in that sense then yes this makes a lot of sense, imho ofc.
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i didn't really get into the fungal craze as much when i was using zerg, partly cause i'm bad with getting chain fungals going, but also because alot of players would blind counter infestors (get hts, etc) and then i could roll them with roaches, etc.
that said, recently i did start using infestors more, but that's probably from watching destiny videos. also i quite like neural against mech, since i can go in with roaches, and then take out alot of their damaging units, like the thors or the tanks
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I'm hoping this opens up to more development for zerg micro with people using fungals more for positioning and less for spam dps. would be exciting to see some innovation ^^
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[QUOTE]On September 28 2011 13:41 phiinix wrote:
You should be using them the way they SHOULD have been made for in the first place; efficient support spell casters, NOT the only gas unit you make because they're so strong they effectively counter every single unit in the game. Make less of them and use your gas for other units.[/QUOTE
Posts like this are infuriating. Even more so then posts about posts that are infuriating.
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EPT
