EPT[D] TvZ, better to get +1 armor first? - Page 6
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Antisocialmunky
United States5913 Posts
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nath
United States1788 Posts
if you cant micro/at low levels, you may do better with armor. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
On September 30 2011 23:16 Iatrokles wrote: Well +1 armor also would help out with say Infestors as well with their fungal growth, it does 1 second of damage every four seconds, with the extra armor, that is 4 more damage taken off of Fungal Growth's damage, and if your marines are fairly split, this could provide pretty durable it would seem. I haven't done any research / testing on this, I'm just giving a bit of input before I go to work. Let me know what ya'll think, because I actually have been going Weapons over Armor but might be going Armor in the future. Armor does not prevent any damage from Fungal Growth. | ||
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statikg
Canada930 Posts
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Peanut Butter
Canada155 Posts
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zakmaa
Canada525 Posts
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
1. Armor is most effective vs mutalisks and zerglings. In fact those are probably the only 2 units where it's better than getting attack. Banelings is the biggest issue in this sense since banelings' damage is not mitigated much by armor (it's effectively useless), and banelings are the biggest counter to marines (at least when used well). Armor is also useless against fungal growth. 2. Critical mass. When an engagement is unbalanced, such as only 2/3 as may zerg units attacking as there should be, +1 attack would get the advantage I think, due to more enemies being killed before they even get to their target. 3. Similar to #3, exposed marines. Versus ground units of poor range (pretty much all the zerg ground units used in ZvT), marines will do better with +1 attack when they are sitting in a protected area such as behind the mineral line, on a ramp, behind a wall, behind or inside a bunker, behind held position (or attacking) SCVs, behind marauders, etc. 4. Stim buffs marine's DPS, so it gets even more DPS when +1 attack is researched. It's not a big difference on it's own, but It is also —or especially— amplified when used with good micro control. Also, something I'm proposing that I don't think has been said: It would depend on what the zerg is upgrading as well — attack or armor (or nothing). It might not make (in fact very likely wouldn't) armor a worse choice than attack, but it would even things out so there's less difference. Overall... I'd say due to the effectiveness vs zerglings, it could be very good to use when running mass-marine early-game timing attack. I also think some tests should maybe be done regarding the effectiveness of marine-marauder with +1 attack compared to just marines (or marine-marauder) with +1 armor if they want to get a bigger picture of which may be more effective in the right circumstances | ||
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Qntc.YuMe
United States792 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
On October 01 2011 04:55 DreamRaider wrote: We know there are pros and cons to having +1 attack first or +1 armor first.... but honestly, everyone should get both upgrades same time. Earlier upgrade > slightly bigger army. I'm not sure this is always the case. There will be times and game states where the extra 250 minerals and 100 gas for an earlier 2nd ebay and +1 or /+1 could set you behind. I personally enjoy double upgrading, but one fairly common thing that I (and others) do is to single-upgrade +1/+1, then as it finishes, armory and 2nd ebay finish and double upgrade to +2/+2. A lot of the time you just don't have the resources in a tight early game for double upgrades, though I can see how you could make a build order that allows for it. | ||
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SheffiTB
Canada223 Posts
On October 01 2011 04:41 Xapti wrote: I think many people stated the many good reasons to get attack over armor (not to say that it's always better), but there should be a summary: If you're going to do a post like this, make sure someone didn't alreaqdy do a summary on the previous page of the pros/cons of +1 attack vs. +1 armor early on. 1. Armor is most effective vs mutalisks and zerglings. In fact those are probably the only 2 units where it's better than getting attack. Banelings is the biggest issue in this sense since banelings' damage is not mitigated much by armor (it's effectively useless), and banelings are the biggest counter to marines (at least when used well). Armor is also useless against fungal growth. Stimmed marines w/o medivacs or combat shields, but with +1 armor, can take 2 baneling hits. Without +1 armor, they take 1 hit before dying, because that +1 armor lets them survive on 1 hp, and unless your opponent is IMNestea, he won't be able to micro it so that a second baneling won't hit and do only 1 damage. 2. Critical mass. When an engagement is unbalanced, such as only 2/3 as may zerg units attacking as there should be, +1 attack would get the advantage I think, due to more enemies being killed before they even get to their target. This would be true if +1 weapons affected the number of shots needed to kill zerglings (the main unit in the most popular ZvT composition, muta/ling/bling). 3. Similar to #3, exposed marines. Versus ground units of poor range (pretty much all the zerg ground units used in ZvT), marines will do better with +1 attack when they are sitting in a protected area such as behind the mineral line, on a ramp, behind a wall, behind or inside a bunker, behind held position (or attacking) SCVs, behind marauders, etc. Yeah, but this would only happen either if you're dropping your opponent (which, on the previous page, I say in my conclusion that it's better to get +1 weapons if opening marine/medivac) or your tank line was broken (which it would be a hell of a lot tougher to break if you had +1 armor, tested and calculated) 4. Stim buffs marine's DPS, so it gets even more DPS when +1 attack is researched. It's not a big difference on it's own, but It is also —or especially— amplified when used with good micro control. Once again, the main problem with this is that zerglings don't die faster when you have +1 weapons. How about combining the extra dps of stim with the extra survivability of +1 armor? I've tested it, and it's better against ling/bling/muta comps. Also, something I'm proposing that I don't think has been said: It would depend on what the zerg is upgrading as well — attack or armor (or nothing). It might not make (in fact very likely wouldn't) armor a worse choice than attack, but it would even things out so there's less difference. Thought I am not sure exactly what difference it would make, you are right that it is likely to make some kind of difference. | ||
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ROOTIllusion
United States1060 Posts
On September 23 2011 15:21 PhiliBiRD wrote: Wait, what? How is no micro vs micro = same results. That makes no sense at all. I can understand how with no micro +1 armor is better. But the reason you want +1 attack is because, your supposed to be microing. And if your doing that well, you aren't taking many attacks. That's the entire point behind micro, to minimize damage. Add in terrain, other Terran units and micro and you will more than understand why you should always have +1 attack over armor. Ontop of the fact that stim adds to the effect of +attack and not with +armor. Wholeheartedly agree, and this is the reason I will transition to a +1 attack sometimes from a 2rax. One of my main reasons is b/c of Banelings though, takes less shots to kill em and they are significantly more important to focus. | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33723 Posts
Stimmed marines w/o medivacs or combat shields, but with +1 armor, can take 2 baneling hits. Without +1 armor, they take 1 hit before dying, because that +1 armor lets them survive on 1 hp, and unless your opponent is IMNestea, he won't be able to micro it so that a second baneling won't hit and do only 1 damage. Seems like a highly unlikely situation where you'd have 1+ armor but not combat shields! | ||
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HansK
249 Posts
Marines come insanely cost efficient vs zerglings with proper micro and position against 0-0 zergling when you have 1-1 stim and combat shields. | ||
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SheffiTB
Canada223 Posts
On October 10 2011 13:53 Liquid`Jinro wrote: EDIT: Nvm I misread. Seems like a highly unlikely situation where you'd have 1+ armor but not combat shields! Actually what I was trying to imply with that post is that it's better to get stim and +1 armor than combat shields and +1 armor. P.S. Huge fan and I'm honored you replied to my post. | ||
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NiNLicorice
Sweden84 Posts
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SheffiTB
Canada223 Posts
On October 10 2011 15:08 Licorices wrote: I always get double upgrades. Thank you for your extremely insightful post. Now everyone will know and the argument will be settled: Some random guy gets double upgrades in TvZ. But seriously, If you're going to make a post, please make sure it contributes to the discussion. Some builds don't allow for double upgrades, like most tank push builds. If the discussion at hand doesn't affect you, just move on. Even saying "just get double upgrades" is better than this kind of post (though saying double upgrades are better, without saying why, doesn't contribute much either). | ||
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Grndr101
Belgium125 Posts
In short; what i did before: siege, combat shield, +1 attack what seems bettter: siege, stim, +1 armor | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33723 Posts
On October 10 2011 14:55 SheffiTB wrote: Actually what I was trying to imply with that post is that it's better to get stim and +1 armor than combat shields and +1 armor. P.S. Huge fan and I'm honored you replied to my post. I guess I could see some very specific fast upgrade builds around this idea o.O Would need a lot of testing tho. | ||
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SheffiTB
Canada223 Posts
On October 10 2011 16:55 Liquid`Jinro wrote: I guess I could see some very specific fast upgrade builds around this idea o.O Would need a lot of testing tho. I was thinking along the lines of a 3 tank push w/stim (MKP transition from reactor hellion) and follow up with +1 armor or a 2fact transition from 2rax with a bit of a later stim/+1. Stim and +1 armor with a tank push is nearly unstoppable. | ||
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LionsFist
Australia164 Posts
On October 10 2011 13:53 Liquid`Jinro wrote: EDIT: Nvm I misread. Seems like a highly unlikely situation where you'd have 1+ armor but not combat shields! An example I use for TvZ is after reactor hellions with 2 fact transition, with a double armory/single eng bay after I go for the 3 siege/bfh timing. In this case, I always get +1 armor, since I'm going mech, and the marines are only for anti-mutalisk support to my main army, not for the damage. Typically at this point in game, I will not have combat or stim done, nor would it prove anywhere near as beneficial. Ohh, forgot to say that +1 armor also benefits scvs, which when pushing with mech based armies is a big advantage. | ||
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