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I have tested 32 speedlings with no other upgrades against 16 combat shield/stimpack marines, with +1 armor or with +1 weapons.
In a 1v1 setting (2 zerglings against 1 marine), one zergling survives against the marine with +1 weapons, 21 health left. However, the marine survives against the 2 zerglings with 2 hp left when he is given +1 armor instead.
In big fights, the results are even more dramatic:
+1 weapons
+ Show Spoiler +
+1 armor
+ Show Spoiler +
These results are without micro. When you stutter step back (allowing for slightly more attacks from the marine's side and slightly less from the speedling's side), the results are approximately the same.
Against Mutalisks it gets a bit trickier, because most mutas aren't going to engage marines unless they are very small in number. Due to good players not engaging in muta/marine duels that make them lose (many) mutas, the upgrades seem to have a very small effect in a realistic battle, making +1 weapons slightly (although almost negligible) more effective as you will be taking a few shots at mutas when chasing them out of your base, resulting in more damage output. However, +3 armor proves to be more effective against mutalisks than +3 weapons, due to negating the bounce damage.
EDIT: some insight from another poster:
On October 01 2011 13:36 SheffiTB wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2011 04:41 Xapti wrote:
I think many people stated the many good reasons to get attack over armor (not to say that it's always better), but there should be a summary:
If you're going to do a post like this, make sure someone didn't alreaqdy do a summary on the previous page of the pros/cons of +1 attack vs. +1 armor early on. Show nested quote +
1. Armor is most effective vs mutalisks and zerglings. In fact those are probably the only 2 units where it's better than getting attack. Banelings is the biggest issue in this sense since banelings' damage is not mitigated much by armor (it's effectively useless), and banelings are the biggest counter to marines (at least when used well). Armor is also useless against fungal growth.
Stimmed marines w/o medivacs or combat shields, but with +1 armor, can take 2 baneling hits. Without +1 armor, they take 1 hit before dying, because that +1 armor lets them survive on 1 hp, and unless your opponent is IMNestea, he won't be able to micro it so that a second baneling won't hit and do only 1 damage. Show nested quote +
2. Critical mass. When an engagement is unbalanced, such as only 2/3 as may zerg units attacking as there should be, +1 attack would get the advantage I think, due to more enemies being killed before they even get to their target.
This would be true if +1 weapons affected the number of shots needed to kill zerglings (the main unit in the most popular ZvT composition, muta/ling/bling). Show nested quote +
3. Similar to #3, exposed marines. Versus ground units of poor range (pretty much all the zerg ground units used in ZvT), marines will do better with +1 attack when they are sitting in a protected area such as behind the mineral line, on a ramp, behind a wall, behind or inside a bunker, behind held position (or attacking) SCVs, behind marauders, etc.
Yeah, but this would only happen either if you're dropping your opponent (which, on the previous page, I say in my conclusion that it's better to get +1 weapons if opening marine/medivac) or your tank line was broken (which it would be a hell of a lot tougher to break if you had +1 armor, tested and calculated) Show nested quote +
4. Stim buffs marine's DPS, so it gets even more DPS when +1 attack is researched. It's not a big difference on it's own, but It is also —or especially— amplified when used with good micro control.
Once again, the main problem with this is that zerglings don't die faster when you have +1 weapons. How about combining the extra dps of stim with the extra survivability of +1 armor? I've tested it, and it's better against ling/bling/muta comps. Show nested quote +
Also, something I'm proposing that I don't think has been said: It would depend on what the zerg is upgrading as well — attack or armor (or nothing). It might not make (in fact very likely wouldn't) armor a worse choice than attack, but it would even things out so there's less difference.
Thought I am not sure exactly what difference it would make, you are right that it is likely to make some kind of difference.
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wow that is a huge difference.
then why would pros get plus one first
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nice find dude, although I think stim and +1 is better then stim and +1 armor ; ), maybe thats why everyone gets +1 first because of marine DPS with stim?
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On September 23 2011 15:07 jjhchsc2 wrote:
wow that is a huge difference.
then why would pros get plus one first
I don't know.
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On September 23 2011 15:13 ChrisGraphex wrote:
nice find dude, although I think stim and +1 is better then stim and +1 armor ; ), maybe thats why everyone gets +1 first because of marine DPS with stim?
It was tested with stim...
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On September 23 2011 15:03 the p00n wrote:
These results are without micro. When you stutter step back (allowing for slightly more attacks from the marine's side and slightly less from the speedling's side), the results are approximately the same.
Wait, what? How is no micro vs micro = same results. That makes no sense at all.
I can understand how with no micro +1 armor is better. But the reason you want +1 attack is because, your supposed to be microing. And if your doing that well, you aren't taking many attacks. That's the entire point behind micro, to minimize damage.
Add in terrain, other Terran units and micro and you will more than understand why you should always have +1 attack over armor. Ontop of the fact that stim adds to the effect of +attack and not with +armor.
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+1 is more useful against banelings, because them getting to your marines is much more dangerous than letting speedlings get up close.
In other words you can tank lings, but you can't tank the banelings, so getting damage to kill them before they get to your soft units is better.
Against lings you can use terrain as protection.
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On September 23 2011 15:03 the p00n wrote:
In a 1v1 setting (2 zerglings against 1 marine), one zergling survives against the marine with +1 weapons, 21 health left. However, the marine survives against the 2 zerglings with 2 hp left when he is given +1 armor instead.
Which upgrade you are talking about? the word "he" is not that helpful. is the lings geeting the upgrade or the rines?
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How much armor upgrades you need to survive banelings?
With micro? WIthout micro?
huahuahuahua
Ontopic, nice find.
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Well, you notice the results come out the same with a human microing the units instead of leaving them still...
So common sense tells you, if you are microing your units and not letting them get hit...the +1 weapons is always better because armor is going to do nothing.
Voila, now you know why every good player gets weapons, not armor.
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On September 23 2011 15:21 PhiliBiRD wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2011 15:03 the p00n wrote:
These results are without micro. When you stutter step back (allowing for slightly more attacks from the marine's side and slightly less from the speedling's side), the results are approximately the same.
Wait, what? How is no micro vs micro = same results. That makes no sense at all.
I meant the same results by %. For example +1 armor is [x]% more effective than +1 weapons without micro, and +1 armor is close to [x]% more effective than +1 with micro. Perhaps I should have been more clear.
That being said, I feel like I have given all the information in this thread that is necessary and will therefor stop replying; as my bronze-senses are tingling and I can't really use another ban/warning.
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I disagree with the OP's assessment. Although +1 armor is more effective than +1 weapons in marines vs lings, this kind of situation is only part of the bigger picture of TvZ.
Reasons why +1 is probably better:
- Drops.
- Stutterstep micro, and I have a hard time believing that it has no impact on the results. Perhaps the OP's stutterstep is not up to par?
- Focusing down banelings.
- +1 weapons scale with stim.
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The logic is that nobody has ever won a fight by getting hit. You should be microing your marines to minimize the amount of attacks that he gets off while maximizing the amount you do. In situations like hiding behind mineral lines and in bunkers where many marines can attack without being hit Weapons might turn out to be better.
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Gents,
look at the maths.
Ling attack damage is 5. 1 armor drops that by 20% to 4. A zergling takes 11 strikes to kill a 55HP marine with no armor, but 14 against a marine with 1 armor. The marine is 27.3% tougher vs a standard ling.
Marine attack is 6. +1 weapons upgrade increases that by 16%.
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I always thought that getting attack upgrades was always better because all races really splash marines and marauders to death with tanks banelings and colossorum, but recently zergs have been making mostly lings and fewer banelings so armor will probably do better right now.
Also,lings are awesome.
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On September 23 2011 15:35 BioTech wrote:
Gents,
look at the maths.
Ling attack damage is 5. 1 armor drops that by 20% to 4. A zergling takes 11 strikes to kill a 55HP marine with no armor, but 14 against a marine with 1 armor. The marine is 27.3% tougher vs a standard ling.
Marine attack is 6. +1 weapons upgrade increases that by 16%.
And that is pretty much completely irrelevant; look what azzur posted. Why would someone throw jusr mass splings against marines? that would be pretty dumb.
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Don't forget that a ball of marines against a wall, the entire group gets the +1 bonus, while only the tanking ones get the armor bonus.
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On September 23 2011 15:35 BioTech wrote:
Gents,
look at the maths.
Ling attack damage is 5. 1 armor drops that by 20% to 4. A zergling takes 11 strikes to kill a 55HP marine with no armor, but 14 against a marine with 1 armor. The marine is 27.3% tougher vs a standard ling.
Marine attack is 6. +1 weapons upgrade increases that by 16%.
This math is undeniable. I am excited to see pro's try this out. I feel like this will be groundbreaking.
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+1 Weapons vs regular zerglings is not a critical upgrade anyway considering that they autoregen immediately as they are hit. Without the upgrade, it takes 6 shots to kill a ling. With it, it still takes 6 shots, so early on, it can be argued that +1 armor is more beneficial.
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+1 armor is better vs just speedlings, even if you are against a close wall. If you want to go for an early +1 upgrade with stim and combat shield timing attack, get the armor instead of weapons. If you want to go for the long game and do other things, get +1 weapons as they do better against muta harass, roaches, and banelings.
OP's stutter micro is not that great or hes not being entirely honest. I have bad stutter micro and win with 4 marines left in his same scenario (16 marines with +1 weapons vs 32 lings). Though I do have 12 left when I get +1 armor instead of weapons. This is a specific situation though.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/yUeBy.jpg)
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