[D]ZvZ: A GSL History of the Blind 15 Hatch - Page 4

Oboeman

Canada3980 Posts

September 14 2011 21:28 GMT

#61

I never really thought about how drone scouting generally reveals that you are 15 hatching..... it's not just the greed factor (at least according to him)

wow that's a great convo.

however; as you pointed out, not drone scouting has lead to some silly losses against stuff like 15 hatch at the gold. It seems to me that maybe you should be drone scouting with every build, although not necessarily 9 scout or 10 scout.

If a drone scout is a tell that you are going 15 hatch, you could drone scout off of 14-14 and make him think you are 15hatching and crush his cheese. it all seems a little bit silly to me, all of this "information without information" mindgames.

nestea dronescouts with his 10pool, because he needs to see the hatch in time to pull drones or not (that's also why he did it on 2player maps, to guarantee scouting the natural on time).

basically, I agree with your sentiment that 80 minerals is a price worth paying for not auto-losing to certain builds.

tehredbanditt

103 Posts

September 14 2011 21:33 GMT

#62

Best post I've ever read on tl.net. This cat put alot of time into this.

VashTS

United States1675 Posts

September 15 2011 03:27 GMT

#63

I thank you very, very much for all your effort and hard work in helping the community hopefully get a better grasp on the ZvZ match up.

Thank you, good sir. And thank you again for the Liquipedia page creation.

Shorty90

Germany154 Posts

September 15 2011 06:04 GMT

#64

wow... this must have taken days. I'm very impressed.
What I take from this is that ZvZ is indeed rock-paper-scissors in the opening builds, except that 15 hatch auto-loses to 10pools and is only slightly better than 14/14.
So if you don't like gambling or don't know your opponent you should almost exclusively go for 14/14 and let your mechanics secure you the win.

whatthefat

United States918 Posts

September 15 2011 14:49 GMT

#65

On September 14 2011 18:57 michaelhasanalias wrote:
I had a chat with dongraegu about drone scouting in 15 hatch and he said this:

+ Show Spoiler +

나의 메시지: why are you terran now??
dongraegu is zerg!!
동래구프로에쓰: Terran so IMBA in Ladder
나의 메시지: hahahaha
동래구프로에쓰: dont worry
Ill play zerg forever
나의 메시지: what about 1.4??
no neural parasite
on big units

동래구프로에쓰: maybe DK has no brain
나의 메시지: what is DK?
동래구프로에쓰: David Kim
나의 메시지: hahahaha
can I post this to reddit
its so funny
reddit people really love you
동래구프로에쓰:

tell me about that links
나의 메시지: 잠깐만요
http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/kf7fg/dongraegus_thoughts_on_proposed_14_neural/
this is so funny
you can say hi on reddit!~
they will ask you many questions too... you are the favorite zerg I think
동래구프로에쓰:

pleasure
나의 메시지: mm I wrote this yesterday maybe you will like it: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=264988
It's a history of 15 hatch open in ZvZ GSL games
I think your english is very good maybe you can understand
동래구프로에쓰: yeah Maybe I can understand
but
very tired to long long english sentence
나의 메시지: umm
동래구프로에쓰: read!
나의 메시지: I can summarize
NesTea is 6-0 in ZvZ when he plays against 15 hatch and he does NOT 15 hatch
동래구프로에쓰: oh
나의 메시지: but everyone else win every game 15 hatch vs 14/14
because NesTea soemtimes he does 10 pool 12 overlord
and he is 4-0
and 2-0 doing fast gold 15 hatch
동래구프로에쓰: conclusion is NesTea IMBA in ZvZ?
나의 메시지: nono
conclusion is 15 hatch risky in zvz!
동래구프로에쓰: aha!
나의 메시지: but i don't know maybe it's still best
every game nestea has lost in zvz has been to code B player
동래구프로에쓰: I think best build if opponent doesnt use fast pool
나의 메시지: i think so too
BUT
I don't understand why no drone scout??
동래구프로에쓰: well..
나의 메시지: there is ONE game in GSL history where there is drone scout for hatchery first
동래구프로에쓰: It doesnt necessary
나의 메시지: and dimaga v july in world championiship, and he would have lost to 10 pool but he won because he didn't make hatch
동래구프로에쓰: if do drone scout
then opponent know that I did first hatch
나의 메시지: (do you want me to correct your english? im an english teacher in korea its my job ^ ^)
hmm
동래구프로에쓰: yeah sure
thx
나의 메시지: ///it isn't necessary///
동래구프로에쓰: aha!
나의 메시지: hmmmm
so you don't drone scout because they know you 15 hatch?
동래구프로에쓰: yeah and
if opponent did first hatch too then
so badly start
나의 메시지: hmmmm
but only very small disadvantage
동래구프로에쓰: one drone mining is so difficult
나의 메시지: one sec
I made a program
it tells you how much minerals you lose from scout
동래구프로에쓰: ok
나의 메시지: if you send drone scout to check opponent main and come back after 2 minutes, it's 86 minerals
for 3 minutes it's 122 minerals
if you scout 2 bases
동래구프로에쓰: yeah yeah
나의 메시지: trade 80 minerals for win vs 10 pool all-in??
only 80 minerals, 1 good baneling and you're even
동래구프로에쓰: scouting
how many drones
나의 메시지: hmm?
동래구프로에쓰: 10 drone scouting?
나의 메시지: when to drone scout?
동래구프로에쓰: yeah right
나의 메시지: after 9 overlord start
9th drone hatch and scout
동래구프로에쓰: 9 drone scout is too poor
Neve win to 15hatch first opponent
나의 메시지: ooooh
BUT
if you scout 15 hatchery
your time is maybe only 80 seconds
동래구프로에쓰: what mean
나의 메시지: and then ~50-60 minerals only
동래구프로에쓰: my time?
나의 메시지: yes because
you scout
you can BLOCK the hatchery
or you can see hatchery
동래구프로에쓰: ah
나의 메시지: and you can come back fast
you dont need to see main base if you see hatchery
so very fast
동래구프로에쓰: hmm
ㅈㄷ
ok
then I practice when my team practice time
now I gonna packing
동래구프로에쓰: prepaare to go spain
oh
나의 메시지: spain??
wow why
동래구프로에쓰: yeah
dreamhack
나의 메시지: oh yeah
you will win!
동래구프로에쓰: sure
나의 메시지: hahaha
thank you for chatting, good luck at dreamhack!
동래구프로에쓰: thx
나의 메시지: 다음에 봐요!
동래구프로에쓰: see ya!
동래구프로에쓰 님의 연결이 끊겼습니다.

I never really thought about how drone scouting generally reveals that you are 15 hatching..... it's not just the greed factor (at least according to him)

Fascinating conversation, thank you for that. I usually 14/14 and always scout with my 10th drone. It greatly improves my chances against an early pool (lets me cancel hatch if 15 hatch, or lets me take drones off gas to afford queen and lings even after drones are pulled if 14/14). It also tells me gas timings (which isn't always possible with overlord scouting). I'm still not sure whether it's worth it though.

michaelhasanalias

Korea (South)1231 Posts

September 15 2011 23:24 GMT

#66

On September 15 2011 23:49 whatthefat wrote:

Show nested quote +

On September 14 2011 18:57 michaelhasanalias wrote:
I had a chat with dongraegu about drone scouting in 15 hatch and he said this:

+ Show Spoiler +

I never really thought about how drone scouting generally reveals that you are 15 hatching..... it's not just the greed factor (at least according to him)

hmm... I think if you're going to 14/14 with a drone scout, it might actually be more cost efficient to 13/13 or 13/12 blind. Technically 14/14 should be able to survive anything except in ridiculous, map-dependent situations (close positions on ladder shattered, etc)

However, if you can use that information to determine whether you need an immediate baneling nest or can immediately expand, maybe it's worth it? I don't know the answer.

JiYan

United States3668 Posts

September 15 2011 23:31 GMT

#67

wow lots of work put into this post.

Oboeman

Canada3980 Posts

September 16 2011 08:33 GMT

#68

On September 16 2011 08:24 michaelhasanalias wrote:

Show nested quote +

On September 15 2011 23:49 whatthefat wrote:

On September 14 2011 18:57 michaelhasanalias wrote:
I had a chat with dongraegu about drone scouting in 15 hatch and he said this:

+ Show Spoiler +

I never really thought about how drone scouting generally reveals that you are 15 hatching..... it's not just the greed factor (at least according to him)

drone scout can get information such as
- early pool
- pool is late, therefore hidden expo
- gas timing so you know when he will have ling speed
- if he takes drones out of gas
- if he starts an early roach warren or baneling nest
- how many lings he produces

I feel like having guaranteed knowledge of any of those points should allow you to take action in a better way. It's like having the scv scout in the protoss base. You know that he won't start a twilight or his stargate until he kills the scv, so why keep hime there after checking gas? so that he can't get away with a super early twilight or stargate (or whatever).

Relying entirely on the overlord watching the natural and the units coming down the ramp seems so unreliable to me. and there are games where people exploit this - both of nestea's hatch first at the gold games the opponent sees no expansion and throws down a bunch of spinecrawlers. that cost him more than a drone scout. There was the xel'naga game where coca goes baneling nest before speed and sneaks his lings across the map exactly dodging overlords. Nestea got damn lucky that the banes hit his queen that game, and also lucky that he blindly went roach with no info.

ALPINA

3791 Posts

September 16 2011 08:49 GMT

#69

What's funny is that when I go 15 hatch and my opponent goes for safe 14 pool and then hatch I am always behind. Thing is that when I get hatch first I need extra lings and spines to defend his possible attack and at that time if opponent just droning hard he will be far ahead. I don't even know is it worth going hatch first at all lol..

Ninety-Three

United States68 Posts

September 16 2011 08:53 GMT

#70

You don't react any differently when you scout early pool, so scouting one actually hurts you more than it helps, and the other things you listed can be scouted with your lings. That's why so many high-caliber players are against drone scouting in this matchup, whether that eventually proves to be correct or not due to other factors like those discussed in this thread.

Also, big thank you to OP for putting a lot of time and effort into this. I would LOVE to see the strategy forum take a turn toward more of this kind of high-quality constructive discussion more than we see now.

blade55555

United States17423 Posts

September 16 2011 08:55 GMT

#71

On September 16 2011 17:53 Ninety-Three wrote:

Show nested quote +

What yes you do. If you were going to go 14/15 hatch and you scout an 8 pool you aren't going to 14/15 hatch lol. But thats the only time you should drone scout (imo) is when you are planning on hatch firsting, when you are 14/14 there is no need to drone scout.

Ninety-Three

United States68 Posts

September 16 2011 09:39 GMT

#72

But don't you cancel it when you see the lings coming from overlords? What do you do differently scouting it compared to seeing the lings?

michaelhasanalias

Korea (South)1231 Posts

September 16 2011 12:37 GMT

#73

On September 16 2011 18:39 Ninety-Three wrote:

Show nested quote +

But don't you cancel it when you see the lings coming from overlords? What do you do differently scouting it compared to seeing the lings?

In the case of 9 scout (for hatch first) you would just not build the hatchery.

The game in the world championship series (april) between july and dimaga on shakuras is a great example of why drone scouting off an intended hatch first can be a game-saver. Because of that drone scout he canceled his 14th drone, quickly pooled and didn't go hatch first, and this put him ahead.

I agree with ninety-three and blade though in that I think hatch first is the only time it would be worth drone scouting unless it's some goofy ladder map.

Ninety-Three

United States68 Posts

September 17 2011 06:05 GMT

#74

Derp! >_< Okay, I definitely see the advantage in not putting it down over cancelling! Hahaha

It's obviously worth the minerals lost for the scout and the ability to get your pool down asap minimizes damage while still retaining a lead instead of having to rely on a micro battle in a tense situation. So, drone scouting off of hatch first is worthwhile.

blade55555

United States17423 Posts

September 17 2011 08:03 GMT

#75

On September 17 2011 15:05 Ninety-Three wrote:
Derp! >_< Okay, I definitely see the advantage in not putting it down over cancelling! Hahaha

It's obviously worth the minerals lost for the scout and the ability to get your pool down asap minimizes damage while still retaining a lead instead of having to rely on a micro battle in a tense situation. So, drone scouting off of hatch first is worthwhile.

imo yes. Also if you drone scout and he is hatch firsting you know you don't have to make your pool asap, you can drone to whatever you feel like then throw the pool down.

Unless the opponent you are playing knows your playstyle they will be taking a huge risk doing this even if they drone scout as I face a lot of players who 14/14 but still drone scout so if they drone to 16 then make a pool they will die to a properly executed 14/14 ling/bane all in (I think I haven't ever really tested it but I know if you 15 hatch/14 pool your roaches pop out at just the right moment when banelings touch your creep so I imagine 15 hatch/16 pool you would just die).

Micket

United Kingdom2163 Posts

September 17 2011 08:17 GMT

#76

I don't see the point of drone scouting much tbh. Its so easy to scout with your lings stuff like tech or gas count drone count doesn't require you to know their opening. DRG said that drone scout + 15 hatch auto loses to blind 15 hatch, which seems pretty bleak to me.

I watch loads of Zerg streams and all the top players NEVER drone scout. You often here things like 'Idra just seems to be pulling ahead in every way' and you have to think it is to do with a snowball effect of little advantages. No way is Idra massively outmacroing a pro Zerg player 7 minutes into the game, but he has more drones, earlier upgrades ...

Belial88

United States5217 Posts

September 28 2011 20:20 GMT

#77

Holy shit dude, this is the best write-up ever! Best thread on TL eva! Omg I love you OP!!!!

I strongly believe that ZvZ is the BEST match-up in the game. It's the most 'honest' match up, where unlike vT you can't just make an expo behind a bunker and siege tanks, or vP where they can expand with sentries and warp gates, or as soon as they get their deathball they win the game no matter what macro mistakes they made. In this match-up, you make 10 drones you die. If you make 10 units, you die. You have to keep pumping units, and try to eek out just one more drone then the opponent. It's so micro dependent, and it's completely NOT rock-papper-scissors since good micro can save anything. It's the most exciting and tense all game long.

I really hope this goes a long way to informing people how the match-up works. Too many people seem to think ZvZ is rock paper scissors rather than 'better' decisions or worse positions where micro can save you. Too many people think it's all about luck, but you can really scout in this match-up, and you can deny scouting but with skill and only within reason.

ZvZ. Absolutely the best fucking match-up, and the metagame is so dynamic, it's a real shame no one pays attention to the metagame shifts in ZvZ that are always going on.

As to the above conversation about drone scouting - if you hatch first, don't drone scout, you need the drone and money for defense (you can scout around 18th drone because that's after an early pool pops, but your first ling will arrive very soon and you just suicide it). If you go early pool, don't scout because you're being aggressive. If you go 14/14, you should send your 11th drone, so you can see the timing of the gas and how much was mined and see if you need to react with an expansion or mass speedlings vs 1 base roach (like pool/gas opening), if they kept drones in gas for banelings or 1 base speedling/roach all-in, or if they expanded and took gas or not (if you can apply speed or bane pressure if they didn't get gas, or if they did, what units they are going to defend with and if you should pressure or not).

Zefa

United States297 Posts

September 28 2011 20:38 GMT

#78

Im not even a zerg and I read through this incredible post. We need more analysis stuff like this for the other races.

michaelhasanalias

Korea (South)1231 Posts

May 20 2012 15:47 GMT

#79

Sorry to bump this year old thread, but would it be worth updating this or is it still relevant? I'm just getting back into SC2 and haven't followed GSL since GSL August... is 15h still the common opener in zvz?

EndOfLineTv

United States741 Posts

May 20 2012 15:56 GMT

#80

On May 21 2012 00:47 michaelhasanalias wrote:
Sorry to bump this year old thread, but would it be worth updating this or is it still relevant? I'm just getting back into SC2 and haven't followed GSL since GSL August... is 15h still the common opener in zvz?

Yes it is. Here is a recent VOD from Day9 featuring: Liquidsheth and stephano ^_^

http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-443-p1-liquidsheth-vs-mstephano-6081999

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