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On September 13 2011 06:23 Micket wrote:
A few nistakes in analysis here and there but overall an excellent job.
Nestea vs Leenock U & D G2, Nestea's gold hatch got spotted immediately and killed. He won with a followup roach all in.
Losira vs Kyrix g2 in group play, Losira went pool first, not hatch first. You talked about how Kyrix tried to target the pool. Notice that in a 8 pool vs 15 hatch situation, the pool wouldn't be up at all.
15 hatch is probably seen most in Korea because the Koreans hate coin flipping more than foreigners. When was the last time Nestea opened ling bane aggression? Losira? These are the best ZvZers in the world and they are all passive players in the beginning. Therefore, they play standard 15 hatch, whilst throwing in the 10 pool here and there. 14/14 openers that rely on speedling map control to coinflip are more popular in the foreign scene. The 'get speed early then make banelings then attack and hope they think you are droning' is not seen much in Korea. The 'get early speed then make nothing but drones and hope they don't do the same or attack' is also not seen. That is why Nestea has such high win rate, because people don't coinflip much against him (and he doesn't coin flip himself). His losses have come from coinflips the majority of the time anyway.
I suppose I remember the game differently between Leenock and NesTea, but I'll reword it with your recommendation. At least to me, he won this game when he took the gold, although not in the fashion when he did it vs Coca. He still got all the larva he needed from it, used all of them, and baited a tremendous overreaction from Leenock who put himself in a terrible position by feeling that his only option was to force that gold to immediately die. He wasted banelings and couldn't drone at all, and then was ultimately forced to drone when NesTea followed up with an all-in.
In the second game of LosirA v Kyrix, LosirA does still open 15 hatch. He has a pool because he dropped one at the normal time. If I remember correctly, he it had about 20-25 seconds to go when Kyrix entered his base.
I would say of NesTea's games, 8 of them have been cheeses. Twice he FE'd straight to the gold, three times he has 10 pooled 2ET, twice he lost to early pool (FruitDealer 8 pool, Dimaga 10 pool) and then once he should have lost to 13/12 baneling aggression by TheWind. In fact, I would go so far as to say that NesTea is unique among the top zergs in that he opts to "coin flip" more often and with more success than other zergs.
He is also the only player to win a game in the GSL with 14/14 vs 15 hatch (against July).
One thing I don't mention in this post but was a heavy trend in the games is that below Code S and before GSL August, there wasn't a single game featuring 15 hatch. Every zerg opted for 14/14 or some kind of early pool. The lone exceptions are GSL August Ro16 where Sniper was build order countered, GSL August Up/Down where LosirA was build order countered (both times by Check), and then the two other games between them where LosirA 15 hatched twice and Check opened 15 hatch and 15/14.
I don't know that I'd qualify LosirA as a Code A player though, having been to the finals himself, and Check has been in Code S for three seasons if I'm not mistaken. In all, only Sniper has actually been the only non-Code S zerg to 15 hatch in a ZvZ. (I say that with a grain of salt though because Cezanne and Dimaga also did, but these two games were in the special tournaments).
On September 13 2011 08:20 wilsonreis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 05:01 michaelhasanalias wrote:
I labeled this as [D] because I felt it should go in the strategy forum, although I guess this may read more as a blog. The problem with this being in the strategy forum is that instead of quietly rating it 5 stars, i feel forced to delurk and say: "Good job, sir. Five Stars"
What does it mean to five star a post? I wasn't sure whether to put this in sc2 forum, strategy forum or as a first blog post. I thought since it would ultimately go into a discussion on 15 hatch and whether or not one should drone scout, it should go here. Maybe I chose poorly?
On September 13 2011 11:11 PNDVL wrote:
winning pct of GSL 15 hatches with a drone scout 0% 0-0
Technically 0-1
oGsCezanna drone scouted around 13 supply in game 1 of the Ro64 Super Tournament against IMNesTea and still basically lost the game due to the 10 pool. However, due to his quick response to cancel the hatchery and build a pool of his own, he turned what would have been a build order loss into a late mid-game back-and-forth. Part of me still feels like the game was decided before the drone ever scouted the 10 pool though because he still technically 15 hatched blindly (before knowing what his opponent was up to).
On September 13 2011 07:05 Glon wrote:
here's the build (I am top of master on Korean server):
15 hatch vs non-hatch first:
15 hatch
16 gas
15 pool
You need a queen and spine at your natural. I transfer 2 drones to my natural/make 1 queen there (no queen in main for a while).
Start zergling speed, pull all but 1 off gas
Make 10 lings. You need these lings even if you don't see any from your opponent (he could be pooling).
At this point, drone, through a second drone on gas, get a baneling nest (when started nest put a third drone on gas) and you can either A. get aggressive (preferred B. fake aggression behind macro
In most of NesTea's 15hatch games he tends to favor going Warren before Queen and pumping out 3-4 roaches, and I honestly prefer this method, depending on the map. Blade did an awesome writeup on defending 15 hatch from 14/14 that talks about using this method.
Ultimately I think that in playing ZvZ on ladder, where the probability for earlier pools for the quick bo1 win is high, blindly 15 hatching simply isn't viable at all unless you're content with just losing games against early pools.
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Is there a liquipedia build for 10 pool baneling? Someone care to summarize?
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This. Is analysis at its best - perhaps we can really look into the prospects/(standard)-ness of 15hatch moreso now?
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"Blind" Hatch first is pretty much way to do it in zvz. If you want to send drone scout you have to be able to gather information before you plant hatch. Otherwise you would be better off vs 10pool without drone-scouting.
On 2 player map that propaply means sending out 9th10th drone or so. That hurts quite a lot especially zvz. On 4 player map you have to send drone scout even earlier to secure information before planting a hatch.
Personally i think it`s plain wrong to scout with drone when using this build. At least on any larger maps than 2 player.
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Wonderful post!!! Thank you very much for taking the time to do something like this.
Theese are the efforts of the world's best zergs to find the perfect oppening. And of course we can find some patterns in there that will help us out in our scrubby games.
I have to say that for me the best approach in the ZvZ match-up is to stay safe, while being able to switch to kill-mode if you see the opponent going blind 15hatch or just drone too hard. It seems that 10 pool/double extractor trick/drone scout as pool finishes is the way to go. While the occasional 15hatch can give a huge advantage if unpunished, the eco10pool is (now that i have seen this beautyful compilation of ZvZ) just better.
Go in with a drone, see 15 hatch? Then all-in with a spine crawler and 3 drones left behind to make more lings.
Go in with a drone and don't see hatch first? use the first 4 lings to make opponent lose mining time and to scout, while your faster queen will give you an economic advantage!!! Then proceed to roach warren and hatch at 30. Then it's a macro game with you probably slightly ahead.
The only -probable- counter to eco10pool I can see is a 14/14 or probably even faster baneling nest, if you know the opponent is going for the 10pool. Which you shouldn't, so it all comes back to 10pool superiority. (And even if you go for the blings, the eco10pooler has 2 bloody queens defending by the time you have your blings out, so he CAN def, but it depends on his micro and not on build order win)
I want to thank the OP once again, for he has shown me the way to go in ZvZ. I am not kidding, eco10pooling (or NesPooling) starts for me today!!
Edit: I want to thank the OP also for the 26speedling expand agression build (as the safe let's-destroy-the-poor-guy build) from another awesome thread. I should probably make a statue out of the OP and pray to it every morning, because has the tendency to solve my ZvZ woes
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wow nice write up and stats!
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Many thanks for this great article.
While I never blind 15 hatch myself, i'll always go for a 15 hatch but scout on 9-10 depending on maps to be able to revert to a gas -pool if I see a sub-14 pool.
Even with your explanations I still don't get how the pros manage to hold it blindly against anything under 14 pool, it takes micro and game sense out of this world.
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On September 13 2011 17:47 NeonFox wrote:
Many thanks for this great article.
While I never blind 15 hatch myself, i'll always go for a 15 hatch but scout on 9-10 depending on maps to be able to revert to a gas -pool if I see a sub-14 pool.
Even with your explanations I still don't get how the pros manage to hold it blindly against anything under 14 pool, it takes micro and game sense out of this world.
Isn`t it pretty impossible to always scout early pool before planting hatch on most 4 player maps? On maps like xel naga you can go 9-10 drone scout and get information in time.. But on most maps you really have to flip a coin and micro godly if you face 9-10 pool.
Personally i go also almost always hatch first but if you do not scout opponent base first, your drone scout is wasted.
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On September 13 2011 06:01 michaelhasanalias wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 05:43 hugman wrote:On September 13 2011 05:01 michaelhasanalias wrote:mTwDimaga vs IMNesTea - G3 - Terminus RE - linkTerminus was added the previous month to the GSL map pool partly in response to the number of all-ins. The hope was that in adding such an obviously macro-oriented map, that cheese would be heavily disfavored. I mention this as a foreshadow to a future game, but this is the first time the map is showcased in GSL ZvZ. Both players opt for blind 15 hatchery in cross positions in this game, and honestly if you have the chance I recommend watching this game if you haven't seen it. While not germane to this thread, it's one of the best standard ZvZs the GSL has seen, with nearly flawless execution from Dimaga and NesTea. I just want to point out that this wasn't the first ZvZ on Terminus because Dimaga actually played Nestea on Terminus in the ace match of Korea vs World! Also Some Relevant GSL Statistics
IMNesTea
non15 Hatch vs. blind 15 Hatch: 6-0 (leenock, fruitdealer, cezanne, july, coca, losira WIN)
blind 15 Hatch vs non15 Hatch: 3-2* (thewind*, zenio, kyrix WIN; dimaga, fruitdealer LOSS)
blind 15 Hatch vs blind 15 Hatch: 4-1 (sen, leenock, coca, losira WIN; cezanne LOSS)
*The game vs oGsTheWind almost certainly should have been a loss.
Isn't the Dimaga game missing from blind15h vs blind15h? ah thanks, will update the OP. I skipped over Korea vs World games entirely!
Really nice OP.
But the Dimaga / NesTea games were drone scout 15 versus blind 15, blind 15 versus 10 pool, and drone scout 15 versus blind 15. Never just blind versus blind.
Dimaga largely lost G1 because of the snowballed disadvantage from drone scouting when NesTea hatched blindly.
G3 was the inverse of G1, with a shaken up NesTea drone scouting while Dimaga 15 hatched blind and used this slight edge to build a solid lead.
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On September 13 2011 17:54 Arir wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 17:47 NeonFox wrote:
Many thanks for this great article.
While I never blind 15 hatch myself, i'll always go for a 15 hatch but scout on 9-10 depending on maps to be able to revert to a gas -pool if I see a sub-14 pool.
Even with your explanations I still don't get how the pros manage to hold it blindly against anything under 14 pool, it takes micro and game sense out of this world. Isn`t it pretty impossible to always scout early pool before planting hatch on most 4 player maps? On maps like xel naga you can go 9-10 drone scout and get information in time.. But on most maps you really have to flip a coin and micro godly if you face 9-10 pool. Personally i go also almost always hatch first but if you do not scout opponent base first, your drone scout is wasted.
For example on shakuras plateau you can send your overlord to the top base and a drone on 9 at the bottom one, on Shattered overlord in the close air, drone to the others, I don't remember the name of the new maps but the antiga one for example I always 15 hatch.
What I do is go up to 15 drones, and if I scout an early pool I throw down own my pool and gas immediately, if not the hatch goes down.
The only maps I don't auto 15 hatch on are Xel Naga and Tal Darim, Xel naga because it's to risky and Tal Darim because I do the roach warren after pool variant of 15 hatch, and if the opponent goes for speedling expand he can pin me to my base, run around the nat and main and do wathever he wants back home.
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On September 13 2011 18:21 kedinik wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 06:01 michaelhasanalias wrote:On September 13 2011 05:43 hugman wrote:On September 13 2011 05:01 michaelhasanalias wrote:mTwDimaga vs IMNesTea - G3 - Terminus RE - linkTerminus was added the previous month to the GSL map pool partly in response to the number of all-ins. The hope was that in adding such an obviously macro-oriented map, that cheese would be heavily disfavored. I mention this as a foreshadow to a future game, but this is the first time the map is showcased in GSL ZvZ. Both players opt for blind 15 hatchery in cross positions in this game, and honestly if you have the chance I recommend watching this game if you haven't seen it. While not germane to this thread, it's one of the best standard ZvZs the GSL has seen, with nearly flawless execution from Dimaga and NesTea. I just want to point out that this wasn't the first ZvZ on Terminus because Dimaga actually played Nestea on Terminus in the ace match of Korea vs World! Also Some Relevant GSL Statistics
IMNesTea
non15 Hatch vs. blind 15 Hatch: 6-0 (leenock, fruitdealer, cezanne, july, coca, losira WIN)
blind 15 Hatch vs non15 Hatch: 3-2* (thewind*, zenio, kyrix WIN; dimaga, fruitdealer LOSS)
blind 15 Hatch vs blind 15 Hatch: 4-1 (sen, leenock, coca, losira WIN; cezanne LOSS)
*The game vs oGsTheWind almost certainly should have been a loss.
Isn't the Dimaga game missing from blind15h vs blind15h? ah thanks, will update the OP. I skipped over Korea vs World games entirely! Really nice OP. But the Dimaga / NesTea games were drone scout 15 versus blind 15, blind 15 versus 10 pool, and drone scout 15 versus blind 15. Never just blind versus blind. Dimaga largely lost G1 because of the snowballed disadvantage from drone scouting when NesTea hatched blindly. G3 was the inverse of G1, with a shaken up NesTea drone scouting while Dimaga 15 hatched blind and used this slight edge to build a solid lead.
Are you referring to a different series perhaps?
This is the one I'm referring to: http://www.gomtv.net/2011championship/vod/64001
Game 1 was on Scrap Station, where both players' overlords were positioned over each other. In this situation, 15 hatch is the preferred opener, and doesn't qualify as a "blind 15 hatch" since both players know it's coming. Neither player sent out a drone scout.
Game 3 was on Terminus, and neither player had vision of the other one until 5:00 game time.
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I'm pretty sure Losira vs Kyrix on Metalopolis had Losira doing a 17 hatch. Sound ridiculous but I went back at the time to check.
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On September 13 2011 11:33 michaelhasanalias wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 08:20 wilsonreis wrote:On September 13 2011 05:01 michaelhasanalias wrote:
I labeled this as [D] because I felt it should go in the strategy forum, although I guess this may read more as a blog. The problem with this being in the strategy forum is that instead of quietly rating it 5 stars, i feel forced to delurk and say: "Good job, sir. Five Stars" What does it mean to five star a post? I wasn't sure whether to put this in sc2 forum, strategy forum or as a first blog post. I thought since it would ultimately go into a discussion on 15 hatch and whether or not one should drone scout, it should go here. Maybe I chose poorly?
I think the strategy forum is a perfect place for your analysis. The "star" system is a sort of ranking system exclusive to blog posts. What i meant was that were it a blog post, i would rate it 5 stars.
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My mistake. My memory had confused things I remembered about G2 and G3 with G1.
I just thought it was significant that NesTea did not attempt to drone scout in G2 but did take an early disadvantage by drone scouting in G3 while Dimaga did not. If I at least remember that much correctly!
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On September 13 2011 20:25 kedinik wrote:
My mistake. My memory had confused things I remembered about G2 and G3 with G1.
I just thought it was significant that NesTea did not attempt to drone scout in G2 but did take an early disadvantage by drone scouting in G3 while Dimaga did not. If I at least remember that much correctly!
I just watched (and added) the Korea vs World games, and in the last set, Dimaga did indeed send what looks like a 9 scout (after overlord). Even with the scout though he didn't find NesTea until after he hatched himself (16 hatch 16 pool).
Dimaga and NesTea played four games with the first being in the final set of Korea vs the World, and then the next three being in Ro16 of the Championship (including twice on Terminus) so I can understand.
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Good thing your analysis was not based on my hazy memories  Thanks again for the write-up, was very informative.
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Great stuff; I admire the effort you clearly put into it.
Can't say it makes choosing an opening any easier though 
Seems like 14/14 is still the jack of all trades, but I always feel pressured when my first lings arrive and see my opponent has gone hatch first.
Anyway I love the thread; I'll definitely be rereading it and watching some of the games in the future, to help with my own ZvZ.
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Really great post and read! Thank you!
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
Even as a Protoss player with at best a passing interest in ZvZ, this was fascinating. Thanks.
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On pretty much every map but Tal'Darim I will 14g/14p because I've lost to early pools too many times with blind 15hatch.
If I run into someone who has 15 hatched I usually take my chances with my baneling micro. It's amazing how many times I'm able to take out their hatchery and secure a win.
You can also expand behind massive speedling pressure if they go roaches, and delay their mining long enough to put the game on even footing. And if they screw up defending with roaches it's a freewin.
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EPT
