EPT[D]ZvZ: A GSL History of the Blind 15 Hatch - Page 3
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whatthefat
United States918 Posts
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acidfreak
Romania352 Posts
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Tortious_Tortoise
United States944 Posts
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kirdie
Germany221 Posts
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TutsiRebel
United States172 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
On September 14 2011 02:23 kirdie wrote: The links of kyrix vs losira don't work. I checked on GomTV and I could not find them either... They require the gomtv season pass because only the first game of each match is free (I think they are games 3 and 5 in the group). There are china links floating around that are rebroadcasts in chinese where you could probably watch them. I think it's probably frowned upon by GOM but I don't think they have the copyright abilities over China. On September 13 2011 21:31 barrykp wrote: Great stuff; I admire the effort you clearly put into it. Can't say it makes choosing an opening any easier though  Seems like 14/14 is still the jack of all trades, but I always feel pressured when my first lings arrive and see my opponent has gone hatch first. Anyway I love the thread; I'll definitely be rereading it and watching some of the games in the future, to help with my own ZvZ. You know, I feel the same way. Including the game I forgot about but just added last night (Dimaga v NesTea KORvWORLD game on Terminus) that makes two games in total where there was a drone scout before hatch first, and in both cases it didn't really make a difference (neither scouted the other player before the hatch went down). Further, the win rate of hatch first vs 14/14 is something close to 100%, with the only game a 14/14 won being NesTea when he played July, and it was dead even until July gave all his ultras away. However, I think the more interesting story there is that the players we would generally consider superior in skill tend to more often open 15 hatch, whereas the cheesier guys who are in code A and B tend to always 14/14. So the better players are already 15 hatching, but the high win rate may well be because 15 hatch is indeed the superior (or at least equal?) opening. I know I've always preferred 15 hatch when I can get away with it, but especially on ladder and with so many players opting for 9 or 11 pools or just early pools in general, it's difficult to justify opening 15 hatch at least for ladder practice. | ||
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
On September 13 2011 16:04 Lobotomist wrote: Is there a liquipedia build for 10 pool baneling? Someone care to summarize? I added a liquipedia page for the build as Check executed it in both games featured in the OP: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/10_Pool_Baneling_(vs._Zerg) | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10366 Posts
So organized, informational, descriptive, everything. Great stuff! | ||
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The.Doctor
Canada333 Posts
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
KORvWORLD FXOmOOnGLade vs STJuly - Metalopolis - link July opens blind 15 hatch 14 pool in cross positions against mOONglade's 14/14 bling pressure. July drops a fast warren but has a late gas and so is barely able to defend in time with roaches and zerglings. From here the game transitions into a typical July game (re: slugfest). KORvWORLD mTwDimaga vs STJuly - Shakuras Plateau - link This game is special among all of these I mention because it actually doesn't feature a blind 15 hatchery. I include it because in re-watching it I noticed something very important--Dimaga actually intended to open 15 hatchery, but he drone scouted on 9 supply and saw July's 10 pool. He then responds by canceling his 14th drone, and going 13 pool 12 gas. I firmly believe Dimaga would have been hard-pressed to survive against July's 10 pool pressure had he not drone scouted and responded accordingly. | ||
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flcHoOt
United States15 Posts
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Oboeman
Canada3980 Posts
Is nestea vs losira the only example of 10p/12ov against 14/14? | ||
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
On September 14 2011 15:27 Oboeman wrote: great post. Is nestea vs losira the only example of 10p/12ov against 14/14? Yeah the only other game that didn't immediately end against this build was Cezanne's canceled 15 hatch into 15 pool, and he was pretty far behind the entire game in my opinion. | ||
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Ghoststrikes
Canada1356 Posts
This is a really good reflection on the State of ZvZ openers! | ||
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Oboeman
Canada3980 Posts
On September 14 2011 15:42 michaelhasanalias wrote: Yeah the only other game that didn't immediately end against this build was Cezanne's canceled 15 hatch into 15 pool, and he was pretty far behind the entire game in my opinion. ok I had a vague memory so I checked the MLG Raleigh vods, and although this isn't GSL, they're code S zergs. Coca went 10p/12 ov against DRG on testbug in game 1. and DRG went 14/14 speedling expand. Coca backs out and makes roaches before expanding (because his ling speed was miles behind), but DRG has a pretty solid lead and outright kills him with a roach ling timing. also for what it's worth in game 3, Coca goes 14/14 against DRG's blind 15 hatch, and coca uses 6 speedlings to be annoying and somehow end up with a solid lead... not sure how that happened. | ||
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + 나의 메시지: why are you terran now?? dongraegu is zerg!! 동래구프로에쓰: Terran so IMBA in Ladder 나의 메시지: hahahaha 동래구프로에쓰: dont worry Ill play zerg forever 나의 메시지: what about 1.4?? no neural parasite on big units 동래구프로에쓰: maybe DK has no brain 나의 메시지: what is DK? 동래구프로에쓰: David Kim 나의 메시지: hahahaha can I post this to reddit its so funny reddit people really love you 동래구프로에쓰:  tell me about that links 나의 메시지: 잠깐만요 http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/kf7fg/dongraegus_thoughts_on_proposed_14_neural/ this is so funny you can say hi on reddit!~ they will ask you many questions too... you are the favorite zerg I think 동래구프로에쓰: pleasure 나의 메시지: mm I wrote this yesterday maybe you will like it: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=264988 It's a history of 15 hatch open in ZvZ GSL games I think your english is very good maybe you can understand 동래구프로에쓰: yeah Maybe I can understand but very tired to long long english sentence 나의 메시지: umm 동래구프로에쓰: read! 나의 메시지: I can summarize NesTea is 6-0 in ZvZ when he plays against 15 hatch and he does NOT 15 hatch 동래구프로에쓰: oh 나의 메시지: but everyone else win every game 15 hatch vs 14/14 because NesTea soemtimes he does 10 pool 12 overlord and he is 4-0 and 2-0 doing fast gold 15 hatch 동래구프로에쓰: conclusion is NesTea IMBA in ZvZ? 나의 메시지: nono conclusion is 15 hatch risky in zvz! 동래구프로에쓰: aha! 나의 메시지: but i don't know maybe it's still best every game nestea has lost in zvz has been to code B player 동래구프로에쓰: I think best build if opponent doesnt use fast pool 나의 메시지: i think so too BUT I don't understand why no drone scout?? 동래구프로에쓰: well.. 나의 메시지: there is ONE game in GSL history where there is drone scout for hatchery first 동래구프로에쓰: It doesnt necessary 나의 메시지: and dimaga v july in world championiship, and he would have lost to 10 pool but he won because he didn't make hatch 동래구프로에쓰: if do drone scout then opponent know that I did first hatch 나의 메시지: (do you want me to correct your english? im an english teacher in korea its my job ^ ^) hmm 동래구프로에쓰: yeah sure thx 나의 메시지: ///it isn't necessary/// 동래구프로에쓰: aha! 나의 메시지: hmmmm so you don't drone scout because they know you 15 hatch? 동래구프로에쓰: yeah and if opponent did first hatch too then so badly start 나의 메시지: hmmmm but only very small disadvantage 동래구프로에쓰: one drone mining is so difficult 나의 메시지: one sec I made a program it tells you how much minerals you lose from scout 동래구프로에쓰: ok 나의 메시지: if you send drone scout to check opponent main and come back after 2 minutes, it's 86 minerals for 3 minutes it's 122 minerals if you scout 2 bases 동래구프로에쓰: yeah yeah 나의 메시지: trade 80 minerals for win vs 10 pool all-in?? only 80 minerals, 1 good baneling and you're even 동래구프로에쓰: scouting how many drones 나의 메시지: hmm? 동래구프로에쓰: 10 drone scouting? 나의 메시지: when to drone scout? 동래구프로에쓰: yeah right 나의 메시지: after 9 overlord start 9th drone hatch and scout 동래구프로에쓰: 9 drone scout is too poor Neve win to 15hatch first opponent 나의 메시지: ooooh BUT if you scout 15 hatchery your time is maybe only 80 seconds 동래구프로에쓰: what mean 나의 메시지: and then ~50-60 minerals only 동래구프로에쓰: my time? 나의 메시지: yes because you scout you can BLOCK the hatchery or you can see hatchery 동래구프로에쓰: ah 나의 메시지: and you can come back fast you dont need to see main base if you see hatchery so very fast 동래구프로에쓰: hmm ㅈㄷ ok then I practice when my team practice time now I gonna packing 동래구프로에쓰: prepaare to go spain oh 나의 메시지: spain?? wow why 동래구프로에쓰: yeah dreamhack 나의 메시지: oh yeah you will win! 동래구프로에쓰: sure 나의 메시지: hahaha thank you for chatting, good luck at dreamhack! 동래구프로에쓰: thx 나의 메시지: 다음에 봐요! 동래구프로에쓰: see ya! 동래구프로에쓰 님의 연결이 끊겼습니다. I never really thought about how drone scouting generally reveals that you are 15 hatching..... it's not just the greed factor (at least according to him) | ||
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sQueez
12 Posts
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Superpower
Australia212 Posts
links to heaps of zvzs ty !!!! Give this guy a clap!!!*claps* | ||
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CrueltY
Guernsey37 Posts
My one thought would be how map dependent these matches were. For example, Nestea did his 10 pool DET on Dual Site and Xel'Naga Fortress in the GSL finals against Losira, and I wonder how much the easier scouting of his opponent played into that. I'm trying to look at this to understand what maps it would be more reasonable for me to take the risk of 15 hatching. | ||
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