|
On August 27 2011 01:52 ToastieNL wrote:
What makes me think it is not is the complete lack of AA out of Snipe, which you can only use so much in a limited time. Mutalisk will rape your butt of, unless you find some way to prove to us that it won't. Show a replay of you beating Mass Mutalisk/Zergling or MutaLingBaneling with this build, in which Zerg is having a good flank and surround, and you have no time to shift- queue Mutalisk with Snipe. I just don't see any way this could work with.
Marines lose to Ling Surrounds/Banelings too, and will autotarget Zerglings over Mutalisk.
Kind Regards
Please stop spouting such utter nonsense. You're asking people to prove that the Terran army can win a fight while giving Zerg every possible advantage in the engagement. A good flank AND surround? ANY Terran army will die to that. It's a downright stupid requirement for "proof". Next thing you know we'll be judging ZvT builds on Zerg's ability to attack straight into a narrow Terran-controlled chokepoint with masses of sieged Tanks & PF's waiting and if it fails (gee I wonder?) it's a fail build. Get real.
Now back to reality, Ghosts actually own Mutas pretty hard and in fact own them even harder the larger the armies get. I managed to get ~15 Ghosts to kiIl 30 Mutas (both at 1/1, Ghosts had ~100 energy). It's impossible to miss Snipes against a massive Muta ball. Clicking ANYWHERE will result in hits on Mutas. That's absurdly cost efficient any way you slice it. I'm pretty sure pure Muta/Ling would get annihilated since the Terran could simply skimp on Marauders for more Ghosts and Helions. Muta/Ling/Bane would probably be more troublesome since you would have to control the Marauders to soak Banelings while focusing the Ghosts on the Mutas. I'd actually be most scared of MASS banelings since then Marauders can't soak all of that, helions don't kill them fast enough, and there's way too many to snipe.
|
On August 27 2011 07:13 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2011 06:19 avilo wrote:On August 27 2011 06:03 Jermstuddog wrote:
Why does everybody try to stray away from the Marine so hard?
The Marine is the single hardest unit for Zerg to deal with in the MU considering there is no mass-marine killing unit.
Fungal takes energy and Banelings die on attack.
The hardest part about late-game ZvT is managing the 10+ marines that are popping out of Ts base every 25 seconds.
Please by all means, do ANYTHING but mass marines in late-game ZvT. It only makes things easier on Zerg. Probably because 9 broodlords + 10+infestors can take out infinite numbers of marines. That's also 3750+ gas. Imagine what 20 tanks and 16+ vikings can do to a Zerg!
Against broodlord infestor not much.
|
I check his ranking on sc2 ranking. He looks like a low master possible mid master at the most considering he says he is on vacation. So ya.....doesnt seem to high to me. He also has a 12win 15 lost ratio atm too.
http://sc2ranks.com/eu/1185470/Ballbreaker
|
Just tried using this composition after doing a reactor hellion expand, sadly it is obvious that this build is rather unrefined but in these games it worked pretty well. I don't know how it will work out for and against good players, but it might have potential.
Game 1
Game 2
Game 3
p.s. i watched mlg while playing those games so forgive my slipups in terms of hellion harass
|
Have you tested this against straight muta? if a player starts out with muta ling, trades with your army, and then magic boxes 40 over your ghost/thor remains, what do you do?
|
I think that might be a problem, but if you harass well and maybe refine your build in a way that you can push right before mutas are done (i assume u mean 2base muta), so around 9 minutes, you can punish the zerg pretty hard for teching straight to mutas, and with like 2 turrets at each base and a few ghosts you should be in a great position defensively. It remains to be tested though. And 40 mutas are like 4000/4000 which is a pretty large amount of ressources, so i do not think that many mutas will be out fast.
|
On August 27 2011 07:13 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2011 06:19 avilo wrote:On August 27 2011 06:03 Jermstuddog wrote:
Why does everybody try to stray away from the Marine so hard?
The Marine is the single hardest unit for Zerg to deal with in the MU considering there is no mass-marine killing unit.
Fungal takes energy and Banelings die on attack.
The hardest part about late-game ZvT is managing the 10+ marines that are popping out of Ts base every 25 seconds.
Please by all means, do ANYTHING but mass marines in late-game ZvT. It only makes things easier on Zerg. Probably because 9 broodlords + 10+infestors can take out infinite numbers of marines. That's also 3750+ gas. Imagine what 20 tanks and 16+ vikings can do to a Zerg!
Good point. I think most people forget how expensive Broodlords are. 10 or so BLs with an army and infestors is very scary, but it's so expensive.
Anyway, better to use 15 thors and 7 ghosts as an example xD.
|
On August 27 2011 14:34 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2011 07:13 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 27 2011 06:19 avilo wrote:On August 27 2011 06:03 Jermstuddog wrote:
Why does everybody try to stray away from the Marine so hard?
The Marine is the single hardest unit for Zerg to deal with in the MU considering there is no mass-marine killing unit.
Fungal takes energy and Banelings die on attack.
The hardest part about late-game ZvT is managing the 10+ marines that are popping out of Ts base every 25 seconds.
Please by all means, do ANYTHING but mass marines in late-game ZvT. It only makes things easier on Zerg. Probably because 9 broodlords + 10+infestors can take out infinite numbers of marines. That's also 3750+ gas. Imagine what 20 tanks and 16+ vikings can do to a Zerg! Good point. I think most people forget how expensive Broodlords are. 10 or so BLs with an army and infestors is very scary, but it's so expensive. Anyway, better to use 15 thors and 7 ghosts as an example xD.
True, but infestor broodlord is a mega death ball. It almost invincible with good infestor fungal control.
|
Not exactly a composition you want to start off, early enough in game, you won't have the mineral income to support all 3 mineral heavy units. (with so much tech and time invested in it) It definitely can work, but early in the game, muta timing can be a nightmare for you, and roach broodlord infestor is not that bad against a ghost mixed in composition, but of course, Ghost is all around anti-everything unit that terran used against protoss in almost every situation, i am sure it can also work in T v Z. Now, only if they make EMP a research or make ghost cost 150 gas again 
Would love to see some high master players try this out against equally matched zerg player.
EDIT: As players previously mentioned, bling drop and 1. just 1 well placed fungal can be the end of you.
|
just got someone in ladder do this to me...
he was low masters or top8 diamond, cant remember (it was on my friends acc).
he got crushed badly by roachling early game, then once infestors and ultras kicked in it was easy.
only dangerous thing was taking care of his ghosts while not having my overseers sniped. but it was easy.
|
On August 27 2011 09:46 Sevenofnines wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2011 01:52 ToastieNL wrote:
What makes me think it is not is the complete lack of AA out of Snipe, which you can only use so much in a limited time. Mutalisk will rape your butt of, unless you find some way to prove to us that it won't. Show a replay of you beating Mass Mutalisk/Zergling or MutaLingBaneling with this build, in which Zerg is having a good flank and surround, and you have no time to shift- queue Mutalisk with Snipe. I just don't see any way this could work with.
Marines lose to Ling Surrounds/Banelings too, and will autotarget Zerglings over Mutalisk.
Kind Regards Please stop spouting such utter nonsense. You're asking people to prove that the Terran army can win a fight while giving Zerg every possible advantage in the engagement. A good flank AND surround? ANY Terran army will die to that. It's a downright stupid requirement for "proof". Next thing you know we'll be judging ZvT builds on Zerg's ability to attack straight into a narrow Terran-controlled chokepoint with masses of sieged Tanks & PF's waiting and if it fails (gee I wonder?) it's a fail build. Get real. Now back to reality, Ghosts actually own Mutas pretty hard and in fact own them even harder the larger the armies get. I managed to get ~15 Ghosts to kiIl 30 Mutas (both at 1/1, Ghosts had ~100 energy). It's impossible to miss Snipes against a massive Muta ball. Clicking ANYWHERE will result in hits on Mutas. That's absurdly cost efficient any way you slice it. I'm pretty sure pure Muta/Ling would get annihilated since the Terran could simply skimp on Marauders for more Ghosts and Helions. Muta/Ling/Bane would probably be more troublesome since you would have to control the Marauders to soak Banelings while focusing the Ghosts on the Mutas. I'd actually be most scared of MASS banelings since then Marauders can't soak all of that, helions don't kill them fast enough, and there's way too many to snipe.
imho the problem is ghost's energy dont replenish faster than muta's production
i doubt ghost won against mass muta without snipe
|
It does take 5 bane hits to take down a ghost you know...
I have no idea how this is meant to play out, none of the criticism in this thread seems valid other than WHERE ARE THE REPLAYS.
Comparing a mid-game style to "HOW DOES IT BEAT ZERGS END GAME TIER 3.5 ARMY" - not valid argument.
Saying a build with hellions and ghosts can't harass - not a valid argument.
Saying weird extreme muta builds may stop a composition that can probaby adapt to keep pace - not really valid theorycraft.
That said...WHERE ARE THE REPLAYS. I'm starting to think the OP might have ninja posted this and isn't coming back now.
|
Zergs lately have been switching to teir 3 to early lately, and this build would work for zergs who operate like that. But if a zerg starts seeing ghosts and mauraders, whats the point in switching from ling bling muta to infestor brood/ultra when the counters are already being used by the terran
|
On August 26 2011 17:25 Ballbreaker wrote:
Mutalisks
Mutalisks are pretty common in TvT
Just something I noticed  you don't usually see mutas in TvT
|
30 muta = you can't defend harrassment without groups of 10 marines around your base
|
On August 28 2011 01:42 Vertical wrote:
imho the problem is ghost's energy dont replenish faster than muta's production
i doubt ghost won against mass muta without snipe
Like I mentioned, the Ghosts had ~100 energy and of course I used Snipe. I consistently had 4-5 Ghosts surviving. You won't rebuild 30 Mutas before the energy regens well over 100, and any new Ghosts made would start with 75 energy with Mobius. Bottomline is that Mutas are the least of your worries. Some kind of mass Baneling/Roach would probably be the most dangerous.
|
On August 28 2011 03:20 Sevenofnines wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 01:42 Vertical wrote:
imho the problem is ghost's energy dont replenish faster than muta's production
i doubt ghost won against mass muta without snipe
Like I mentioned, the Ghosts had ~100 energy and of course I used Snipe. I consistently had 4-5 Ghosts surviving. You won't rebuild 30 Mutas before the energy regens well over 100, and any new Ghosts made would start with 75 energy with Mobius. Bottomline is that Mutas are the least of your worries. Some kind of mass Baneling/Roach would probably be the most dangerous.
I think what he is trying to say is that zerg can spawn 12 mutas at once while you will have a hard time just producing 2 ghost at once. Considering that you need to keep your ghost together, because if you dont then they will get pick off, you need to make turrets. Making turrets will cut down on ghost counts too. Ghost arent like marine and are much slower so it harder to defend from mutas too. I am pretty sure when zerg has about 15 mutas you will only have about 3 ghost at the most and you will be stuck in your base for a while until you have enough and your giving him free map control. But i wana see replay on how well this build fairs against certain timings.
|
On August 28 2011 02:14 Glon wrote:
30 muta = you can't defend harrassment without groups of 10 marines around your base
Turrets w/ range + 1 Thor. No amount of muta can break it.
|
On August 29 2011 02:12 DaemonX wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 02:14 Glon wrote:
30 muta = you can't defend harrassment without groups of 10 marines around your base Turrets w/ range + 1 Thor. No amount of muta can break it.
30 mutas vs a thor and turrets? I'd take those odds. Kill the thor, leave, kill the turrets, kill everything.
Mutalisks are pretty common in TvT
I think this is a cool strategy to play against but I'd definitely want to get out thors a minute or so faster. You don't want to be making your first thors when mutalisk numbers are hitting 40 O.O
|
I remember when i saw a qxc's replay using this army composition. Although that match was a loooong time ago.
Really i don't know if this "build" is viable/safe to do in ladder.... but anyways it looks awesome.
Is necessary to share replays to see it in action in the current ladder.
Anyone wanna share replays with us? :p
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
