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Burrowed Roaches are rather rarely seen and don’t really provide a great threat to this unit composition. However, the Roaches can burrow, making them invisible for you and making them regenerate health rapidly. In order to compensate for that, EMP the location you suspect Roaches to be in, once and attack the, now revealed, Roaches. He has to either engage or draw back. Regardless what he goes for in the end, he will use units.
I'm sure that EMP doesn't have the ability to reveal burrowed units, only the cloaked units
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/EMP_Round
edit: messed up the liquipedia link
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On August 26 2011 22:05 frignr wrote:Show nested quote +Burrowed Roaches are rather rarely seen and don’t really provide a great threat to this unit composition. However, the Roaches can burrow, making them invisible for you and making them regenerate health rapidly. In order to compensate for that, EMP the location you suspect Roaches to be in, once and attack the, now revealed, Roaches. He has to either engage or draw back. Regardless what he goes for in the end, he will use units. I'm sure that EMP doesn't have the ability to reveal burrowed units, only the cloaked units http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/EMP_Roundedit: messed up the liquipedia link
True, I did not know that, I thought cloaked and burrowed units would be equally affected by the EMP round. Thanks for the link, though, I will edit the first post  .
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i have a hard time seeing how this will ever work. i just tried it @ masters lvl, once mutas are out u cannot hellion harass very much at all. and u cannot bring out a few ghosts to fight the mutas in the middle of the map. with ghosts being 200 minerals it is hard to keep hellion count up unless ur talking about turtling until 3 base then maxing and attacking. i moved out while taking my3rd @ 150ish supply and got completely rolled by mass baneling/ ling
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On August 26 2011 21:51 Ballbreaker wrote:
Against Mutalisks
In the first post I only described how to react to the first Mutas in the game. If you see your opponent going for mass Muta (which is pretty good against this composition if microed correctly), you should throw down a second Factory, an amory and start pumping a couple of Thors. You still do not want to get too many Thors, as they are rather an immobile unit.
You should start building Thors maybe around the 15 minute mark. Before that, the Zerg will most likely not have a threatening amount of Mutalisks, unless he neglected Upgrades/Tech.
I'm fairly certain getting out 20 mutalisk before 15 minute mark takes no skill. At all. Assuming you get Spire at 10.00, you have 5 minutes on 3/4 base gas, which means 5*6 or 5*8 = 30 or 40 Mutalisk, if you invest only in Mutas.
This is without the probably saving of gas up to 800 before Spire pops.
And, my question still remains; how are you going to snipe 25 Mutalisk that are not clumped, but when there's 100 Lings around. If they surround and flank well, the Hellions shouldn't instakill everything, meaning that your mouse accuracy is going to have to be top notch, especially if the Zerg player micros with his mutas still moving while magic boxed, so you have to kill moving targets with snipe.
I honestly think Mass Muta is the answer.
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On August 27 2011 00:36 ToastieNL wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 21:51 Ballbreaker wrote:
Against Mutalisks
In the first post I only described how to react to the first Mutas in the game. If you see your opponent going for mass Muta (which is pretty good against this composition if microed correctly), you should throw down a second Factory, an amory and start pumping a couple of Thors. You still do not want to get too many Thors, as they are rather an immobile unit.
You should start building Thors maybe around the 15 minute mark. Before that, the Zerg will most likely not have a threatening amount of Mutalisks, unless he neglected Upgrades/Tech. I'm fairly certain getting out 20 mutalisk before 15 minute mark takes no skill. At all. Assuming you get Spire at 10.00, you have 5 minutes on 3/4 base gas, which means 5*6 or 5*8 = 30 or 40 Mutalisk, if you invest only in Mutas. This is without the probably saving of gas up to 800 before Spire pops. And, my question still remains; how are you going to snipe 25 Mutalisk that are not clumped, but when there's 100 Lings around. If they surround and flank well, the Hellions shouldn't instakill everything, meaning that your mouse accuracy is going to have to be top notch, especially if the Zerg player micros with his mutas still moving while magic boxed, so you have to kill moving targets with snipe. I honestly think Mass Muta is the answer.
Well, if a terran starts seeing 40 mutalisks, I'm pretty sure they'll have enough sense to make a few thors to counter them.
mutalisks are clumped= thor kills
mutalisks are separated= ghosts snipe them
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On August 27 2011 00:45 frignr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2011 00:36 ToastieNL wrote:On August 26 2011 21:51 Ballbreaker wrote:
Against Mutalisks
In the first post I only described how to react to the first Mutas in the game. If you see your opponent going for mass Muta (which is pretty good against this composition if microed correctly), you should throw down a second Factory, an amory and start pumping a couple of Thors. You still do not want to get too many Thors, as they are rather an immobile unit.
You should start building Thors maybe around the 15 minute mark. Before that, the Zerg will most likely not have a threatening amount of Mutalisks, unless he neglected Upgrades/Tech. I'm fairly certain getting out 20 mutalisk before 15 minute mark takes no skill. At all. Assuming you get Spire at 10.00, you have 5 minutes on 3/4 base gas, which means 5*6 or 5*8 = 30 or 40 Mutalisk, if you invest only in Mutas. This is without the probably saving of gas up to 800 before Spire pops. And, my question still remains; how are you going to snipe 25 Mutalisk that are not clumped, but when there's 100 Lings around. If they surround and flank well, the Hellions shouldn't instakill everything, meaning that your mouse accuracy is going to have to be top notch, especially if the Zerg player micros with his mutas still moving while magic boxed, so you have to kill moving targets with snipe. I honestly think Mass Muta is the answer. Well, if a terran starts seeing 40 mutalisks, I'm pretty sure they'll have enough sense to make a few thors to counter them. mutalisks are clumped= thor kills mutalisks are separated= ghosts snipe them
You have to keep in mind that the Ghosting player can only snipe so much. Especially with Overlord/Zerglings all around, your accuracy is going to be significantly lower.
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And, my question still remains; how are you going to snipe 25 Mutalisk that are not clumped, but when there's 100 Lings around. If they surround and flank well, the Hellions shouldn't instakill everything, meaning that your mouse accuracy is going to have to be top notch, especially if the Zerg player micros with his mutas still moving while magic boxed, so you have to kill moving targets with snipe.
Of course, sniping moving Mutalisks isn't that easy, but manageable. You just have to be accurate with your mouse movement and leftclick every Mutalisk three times to kill it. Also, the normal Ghost damage is pretty high against Mutalisks too (20), so once the Lings are gone you will have a pretty easy time against the Mutas.
10 Hellions with Blueflame roast at least 30 Lings when the Lings run in. The Marauders tank a lot of damage and allow the Hellions to keep killing the lings.Also, Ghosts are great against Lings :p.
I would suggest lower league players to start Thor production a little earlier, as it makes a lot of things easier. If you feel like you are confident about your sniping skills, build Thors later and rely on your Micro for a little longer .
Also, if you see 40 Mutalisks at the 15 minute mark (which is hardly doable), there is nothing against camping in your own base and waiting for Thors and more Ghosts to be produced. If he invests that much in Mutalisks, his Tech will be late and his ling upgrades will be worse than your Infantry upgrades.
Edit: As I said, I am going to upload some replays showing the strategy, once I get home and played some games on my computer (replays are stored on a computer of a friend I visited here in the US).
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Seems like a great composition
But im concerned about the micro
Constant sniping means other units goes unmicroed
How'd u kite with hellion and marauder while u constant sniping
Assuming mid game muta ling bling engagement
And mineral also being my concern
As ghost cost a lot at 200 min
How many production u will have in 2 bases ?
And thors means additional fac
Which again will cut prod facility
Oh sorry if i asked again
How to snipe properly ?
Holding R and mass clicking the target ? Do we have to click one target multiple time
Coz i read somewhere to hold shift and just click once for each target
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The best way to snipe is to keep the Snipe hotkey ("R") pressed and then clicking the target as often as necessary (this is why I included the sniping chart). This should be pretty fast.
Microing the other units is of course a little tricky. Just make sure to keep your Helions in the back of your Marauders and micro them away from Banelings.
And mineral also being my concern
As ghost cost a lot at 200 min
How many production u will have in 2 bases ?
And thors means additional fac
Which again will cut prod facility
As I said in the guide, you might want to consider getting a quick third base. This unit composition still lets you apply pressure, although you are taking a "greedy" third base!
On 2 Bases I usually have 4 Barracks, each with a tech-lab, one Factory with a reactor for double Helion production and a Starport. Once I get my third base up, I tend to throw down another factory and get a tech-lab for both, to start double Thor production .
On 2 Bases you will roughly have an income of 1200 Minerals and 400 Gas every minute. Let's say that you build one Ghost (takes about a minute to complete - little less, but let's assume it does) to six Marauders (takes roughly 30 seconds to complete). That would be 800 Minerals and 250 Gas already. Then you would produce 2 Hellions a minute, which would result in another 200 Minerals. Also, you might want to get a Medivac (100/100). This all would result in 1100 Minerals and 350 Gas spend, therefore there is still enough left to upgrade your troops and take an expansion if you cut production a little .
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Will definitely check the replays once they're up.
On the topic of vs mass muta/ling, I assume you've got a reactor on your factory by this point and 3-5 barracks (not entirely sure how much the mineral income can support since I haven't tried this out). Would it be reasonable to respond to scouting mass muta by (in addition to making 1-2 thors) moving one of the barracks onto the reactor to pump marines + research combat shield from one of the other tech'd barracks? (Particularly since your mid-game indicates 10 or so hellions, it may be worth using marines in the later 2-base into 3-base transition, since this can be the scary time for mutas)
Granted, marines are much less effective with the (relatively) low medivac count, but the combination of 1-2thors + 8-10 marines + 5-6 ghosts should be scary enough to deter overboard muta production, at least until you can get into the snowball phase of crazy ghost numbers (and 3-4 bases)
I could also potentially see a raven or 2 in the late game being very solid to compliment the army (I mean, what else are you going to use the starport for at this point? :p) since PDD helps buffer your army against air and autoturrets mess with ultra pathing.
Couple of thoughts that occurred to me reading through this. Looking forward to replays and seeing this more 'fleshed out' so to speak.
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I don't mean to be a wet blanket, but this thread is a little sus with a) no replays b) no league listed from OP.
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what makes people think this is viable vs mutalisks? it's not.
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I don't mean to be a wet blanket, but this thread is a little sus with a) no replays b) no league listed from OP.
I am a high Master league Terran. This season I have mostly played custom and practice games with a couple of my friends to further improve. Right now my ladder record is kinda messed up, as I played a bunch of Protoss games and lost...almost all of them ^^.
The Replays are coming, as I said!
what makes people think this is viable vs mutalisks? it's not.
What makes you think it is not?
@Everhate
I honestly have never thought about adding in Marines if the Mutalisk count gets to high. Sounds like a great idea though, I will definitely try it out and post the replays here .
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On August 27 2011 01:45 rmAmnesiac wrote:
what makes people think this is viable vs mutalisks? it's not.
My point, which I have proven twice already. You cannot say Ghost have high normal damage and Lings are nullified upon engagement. You need every hit to be right on the Mutalisk. Which you won't achieve. YOu are going to miss. Often. There's only so many Snipes you can do.
Next to that, a well flanked (means, instant surround) Ling/Baneling army with Mutalisk overhead will thrash the ground army, no matter how well you micro, you are going to be blasted to pieces by the Banelings which require multiple hellion shots and will detonate before dieing. Once Hellions are down (3 Banelings/Hellion, and you are going to be clumped up as that is the best way for this army to fight vs Lings and abuse the splash), you will have Lings on the ground and Mutalisk in the air, with only a couple of ghost.
I have no faith in this build. MutaLingBaneling > MarauderHellionGhost unless Ursadak Bot is playing.
EDIT:
On August 27 2011 01:50 Ballbreaker wrote:What makes you think it is not? @Everhate I honestly have never thought about adding in Marines if the Mutalisk count gets to high. Sounds like a great idea though, I will definitely try it out and post the replays here .
What makes me think it is not is the complete lack of AA out of Snipe, which you can only use so much in a limited time. Mutalisk will rape your butt of, unless you find some way to prove to us that it won't. Show a replay of you beating Mass Mutalisk/Zergling or MutaLingBaneling with this build, in which Zerg is having a good flank and surround, and you have no time to shift- queue Mutalisk with Snipe. I just don't see any way this could work with.
Marines lose to Ling Surrounds/Banelings too, and will autotarget Zerglings over Mutalisk.
Kind Regards
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On August 27 2011 01:50 Ballbreaker wrote:Show nested quote +I don't mean to be a wet blanket, but this thread is a little sus with a) no replays b) no league listed from OP. I am a high Master league Terran. This season I have mostly played custom and practice games with a couple of my friends to further improve. Right now my ladder record is kinda messed up, as I played a bunch of Protoss games and lost...almost all of them ^^. The Replays are coming, as I said! What makes you think it is not? @Everhate I honestly have never thought about adding in Marines if the Mutalisk count gets to high. Sounds like a great idea though, I will definitely try it out and post the replays here .
I don't think being ranked 57 in your league with a less than 50% winrate can be considered "high masters", any way you put it...
Lets be realistic here: there is no way this build can handle mass banelings, with mass ghosts. Using snipe as a substitute for siege tanks and marines just doesn't work. Somewhere in this post, you say that "sniping 30 banelings isn't hard to do", which I think is a complete lie. If you post a replay of you sniping 30 banelings, that have speed, that are a-moved into your army, then I'll belive you, but I don't think anyone can snipe 30 fast banelings that are coming at you.
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On August 27 2011 02:08 kofman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2011 01:50 Ballbreaker wrote:I don't mean to be a wet blanket, but this thread is a little sus with a) no replays b) no league listed from OP. I am a high Master league Terran. This season I have mostly played custom and practice games with a couple of my friends to further improve. Right now my ladder record is kinda messed up, as I played a bunch of Protoss games and lost...almost all of them ^^. The Replays are coming, as I said! what makes people think this is viable vs mutalisks? it's not. What makes you think it is not? @Everhate I honestly have never thought about adding in Marines if the Mutalisk count gets to high. Sounds like a great idea though, I will definitely try it out and post the replays here . I don't think being ranked 57 in your league with a less than 50% winrate can be considered "high masters", any way you put it... Lets be realistic here: there is no way this build can handle mass banelings, with mass ghosts. Using snipe as a substitute for siege tanks and marines just doesn't work. Somewhere in this post, you say that "sniping 30 banelings isn't hard to do", which I think is a complete lie. If you post a replay of you sniping 30 banelings, that have speed, that are a-moved into your army, then I'll belive you, but I don't think anyone can snipe 30 fast banelings that are coming at you.
Or 70 Lings, 40 Banes and 25 Mutas, for that matter.
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yes there is no way to "apply pressure" with this build because of muta flocks shutting down hellion harass/drops. i tried this and im 750 point master at the moment. when i took my third and moved out with 150 supply of ghost/hellion/maurder i got butchered so bad 15ish mutas and about 75 ling/30 blings completely destroyed this it wasnt even funny
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you will still need marines (if ur going bio) or thors (if ur going mech)
Ghosts do great against Mutalisks, but if he switches to a very heavy muta composition, your ghosts won't be able to cover and protect all the rest of the marauder/hellion army that can't shoot up
and obviously you can stack up on like 8 snipes per ghost but really who is going to be able to press snipe 100 or so times in a couple seconds?
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On August 27 2011 01:52 ToastieNL wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2011 01:45 rmAmnesiac wrote:
what makes people think this is viable vs mutalisks? it's not. My point, which I have proven twice already. You cannot say Ghost have high normal damage and Lings are nullified upon engagement. You need every hit to be right on the Mutalisk. Which you won't achieve. YOu are going to miss. Often. There's only so many Snipes you can do. Next to that, a well flanked (means, instant surround) Ling/Baneling army with Mutalisk overhead will thrash the ground army, no matter how well you micro, you are going to be blasted to pieces by the Banelings which require multiple hellion shots and will detonate before dieing. Once Hellions are down (3 Banelings/Hellion, and you are going to be clumped up as that is the best way for this army to fight vs Lings and abuse the splash), you will have Lings on the ground and Mutalisk in the air, with only a couple of ghost. I have no faith in this build. MutaLingBaneling > MarauderHellionGhost unless Ursadak Bot is playing. EDIT: Show nested quote +On August 27 2011 01:50 Ballbreaker wrote:what makes people think this is viable vs mutalisks? it's not. What makes you think it is not? @Everhate I honestly have never thought about adding in Marines if the Mutalisk count gets to high. Sounds like a great idea though, I will definitely try it out and post the replays here . What makes me think it is not is the complete lack of AA out of Snipe, which you can only use so much in a limited time. Mutalisk will rape your butt of, unless you find some way to prove to us that it won't. Show a replay of you beating Mass Mutalisk/Zergling or MutaLingBaneling with this build, in which Zerg is having a good flank and surround, and you have no time to shift- queue Mutalisk with Snipe. I just don't see any way this could work with. Marines lose to Ling Surrounds/Banelings too, and will autotarget Zerglings over Mutalisk. Kind Regards
ghosts can't catch mutalisks. turrets don't cut it vs muta play, they are there to delay for marine or thors to defend. mutalisks are either to produce en masse. and mutalisks can kill your ghostts far faster than you can possibly snipe those tiny little things,
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EPT
