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[G]Ghost/Marauder/Helion - The key to TvZ?

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Ballbreaker
Profile Joined January 2011
Germany97 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-29 00:08:34
August 26 2011 08:25 GMT
#1
Hi there folks!

You might know me from my Terran blog ( http://www.ballbreakertv.wordpress.com. I am writing guides on the Terran race to help fellow players become a better player.

I am here to provide you a detailed analysis of a rather unknown unit composition in the Terran vs Zerg matchup. I hope you enjoy the guide !
Here...we...go!



----- ----- ----- ----- -----

Many Terran players seem to have lots of problems when playing against a Zerg opponent. Marine/Tank strongly relies on Positioning and Harassment. Mech is quite immobile and relies on the synergy between Tanks/Thors and Helions. No matter if you play Mech or BioMech, Tier 3 units and especially Infestors are units that give Terrans a hard time.

So…what is good against Tier 3 units AND Infestors? Ghosts!
With it’s ability to snipe units over an enormous range and making Infestors useless with the EMP round, the Ghost seems to be the key unit to win a Terran vs Zerg match.

You might say that the Ghost is rather a lategame unit and access to it is quite hard, as producing Ghosts early on vastly cuts into Tank or Thor production. This is of course true, so we have to figure out units that would support early ghost production. We all know that Helions are great versus Zerg, especially against Lings and Workers (haha). As they don’t cost any gas we will use them as our main harassment unit. What happens if the Zerg build Roaches? Well…Terran unfortunately does not have a unit that is good against armored targets and does not cost any gas, but we have the Marauder. It is still pretty cheap in gas and, once Stimpack is researched, has a higher damage output than unsieged Tanks have.

We now have a unit that kills armored targets, the Marauder.
A unit that kills light targets and is great for harassment, the Helion.
And we of course have our core unit, to kill Zerg’s tech units and keep him limited in options, the Ghost.

This is the unit composition that might revolutionize the Terran vs Zerg match-up. I will explain to you it’s strengths and weaknesses and show you how to handle these units properly and use them to great effect.


Early Game
+ Show Spoiler +
It does not matter what opening you would like to play. As long as it grants a fast expansion and is relatively safe, you are good to go. Try to pressure your opponent while getting an expansion on your own. Once your expansion is done, you should start working on your Ghosts, so we are going to get a Ghost Academy now.


Mid Game
+ Show Spoiler +
Get as many Ghosts as you can, but don’t waste production time by waiting for another 100 Gas. If you can’t afford a Ghost, get a Marauder instead. Just make sure to have about 5 Ghosts at the 11 Minute Mark in case of possible Muta-play (I will describe this later on in more detail).
Helions should be built until you have about 10 of them. You really don’t need more, because, once in big enough numbers, Ghosts are a pretty good counter to Massive Amounts of Lings. If you loose some, while harassing, rebuild them.
A great threat to this composition is a mid-game roach attack. In order to survive such an attack, build 2-3 bunkers at your natural expansion and repair them if needed.
You should start building your third if you have about 5-6 Ghosts (that is at the 11 Minute Mark, as stated above). If you like, you can do the first push. If you don’t, keep pressuring your opponent with Helions and Dropships. Also, spot his third base as soon as you can and try to deny it (a drop with 4 Marauders is great to do so).
Start both of your infantry upgrades at this time!


Late Game (time to shine)
+ Show Spoiler +
Usually Zerg becomes really really strong in the late stages of the game, because of Broodlords, Infestors and Ultralisks (maybe in Patch 1.4, as their build time might be reduced).
Unfortunately for Zerg players, the Ghost counters all of these units. If your opponent is at Hive tech, you should at least have about 20 Ghosts, most of them with full energy, which leaves you with almost infinite sniper rounds to quickly kill Broodlords/Infestors and Ultralisks. Let us take a closer look at this late-game scenario.
You have 20 Ghosts. Each of them can snipe about 8 times, assuming they all have full energy. That would result in 240 snipes. Each snipe does 45 damage. That would mean that we could quickly deal about 10000 damage.
The Marauders are there to back your Ghosts up and your Helions will quickly take out Lings and Broodlings.
If you attack a Zerg, make sure to first focus on Mutalisks or Broodlords with your Ghosts. Only your Ghosts are able to kill Air units, so these are the most precious targets!
Taking a lot of Bases is pretty easy with this tactic, as you will be pressuring the Zerg quite a lot. Just make sure to have enough Barracks at home, to quickly reproduce Ghosts and Marauders (although you should really keep an eye on your Ghosts and make sure they don’t die unnecessarily).


Late late late Game
+ Show Spoiler +
Battlecruisers and Thors are great against Zerg, so it is good to add them to your Ghosts once you are on 4 or more bases. If you decide to do so, you should halt all Helion production. Harassment is not as important anymore as destroying the Zerg’s many bases, so you should focus on units that have a high damage output.



Mutalisks
+ Show Spoiler +
Mutalisks are pretty common in TvT, to secure Mapcontrol for the Zerg player and harass undefended mineral lines. If you don’t react to Mutalisks accordingly, you might loose a fair amount of SCVs, which would set you far behind against a Zerg player that is usually already ahead in workers!
Usually you see the first Mutalisks at the 10:30 to 11 minute mark. In order to make his Mutalisks almost useless, you should start building two Engineering Bays at the 9 to 10 Minute Mark and build one or two turrets at each mineral line once you are able to do so!
Also, you would like to have a couple of Ghosts (about 5 or 6) when the Mutalisks hit, in order to secure your production facilities and further expansions. Use the Snipe ability to quickly get rid of Mutalisks (3 Snipes per Mutalisk are sufficient, so you should be able to kill 2 Mutas every time he makes a harassment attempt, assuming that you have 6 Ghosts).
Once Mutalisks hit a critical number (around the 15 minute mark, assuming he did not neglect upgrades for his ground troops), you should start building some Thors from two Factories! Do not overproduce Thors, 3 to 4 should be more than enough to punish Zergs who try to counter this strategy with massive amounts of Mutalisks (which is, honestly, a pretty good counter, as described in this post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=259174#13


Burrowed Roaches
+ Show Spoiler +
Burrowed Roaches are rather rarely seen and don’t really provide a great threat to this unit composition. However, the Roaches can burrow, making them invisible for you and making them regenerate health rapidly. In order to compensate for that, place a turret at your natural expansion and start getting a Raven to detect Roaches underground. You should swap your Starport with one of your Barrack’s tech-labs to buy some time and be more resource-efficient!


Banelings
+ Show Spoiler +
The Baneling is probably the unit that is the hardest to deal with. They are great against Helions and ok against clumped Marauders and Ghosts, once in big enough numbers. Sniping them is difficult, due to their small unit model.
You should still try to keep your Marauders in the front when engaging Banelings. Spread them out a little, to negate the Baneling’s splash damage. The Helions will quickly clean up Zerglings and your Ghosts should try to snipe as many Banelings as possible.


Infestors
+ Show Spoiler +
Hehe, good one :p.
*EMP them and laugh at the Zerg!*



The Ghost – Terran’s most versatile unit?
+ Show Spoiler +
Everyone knows that more and more Zergs use the Infestor as their core unit. They use them to harass (fungal on the mineral line), to achieve map control and to win fights. Why can’t Terrans do the same with the Ghost?, I asked myself. Well…they could, but no one seems to do this yet.
Harassment: Harassing with Ghosts is probably the easiest and most fun part when using them. The cloak ability will be our best friend. Just take 2 to 3 Ghosts, cloak them and attack a mineral line. As they do bonus damage to light, they already two-shot Drones, but their snipe ability is faster and more efficient. 3 Ghosts with full energy would be able to kill up to 18 Drones in no time (each Ghost looses about 50 energy because of the cloaking, therefore each has 6 snipes left), this is far superior than Infestors using fungal growth! 18 Drones dead results in 18 Larva the Zerg has to spend on stuff he usually does not want to. Also 18 Drones cost 900(!) minerals.
Map control: Ghosts don’t really provide as much map control as Infestors do. However, building them grants the same advantage. Detection! EMP detects cloaked units, but unfortunately NOT burrowed units. A Raven is still needed against Zerg and can be a great addition to this composition, when fighting a lot of Mutalisks (the PDD blocks Mutalisk shots, minimizing their threat!
Winning battles: Killing units wins a battle and maybe the game. Ghosts are good at killing units, because of their snipe ability, so we build them ! They make enemy casters useless, can deal enormous damage and don’t take bonus damage from anything, as they are no armored, nor light unit (they are biological and psyonic).



How to: Snipe
+ Show Spoiler +
The Snipe-ability is of course essential when using this type of Ghost-heavy strategy. I am aware that a lot of players have issues using the Snipe ability in quick succession, so I will show you the most efficient way to do so and provide you useful tips when engaging!
There is basically only one way to use the Snipe-ability effectively.
When engaging, you keep the Snipe Hotkey (R) pressed and left-click the unit you would like to attack a couple of times. You keep doing this until the engagement is over, or the key Zerg units (Mutalisks, Banelings, Broodlords…) are dead. Wasting Snipes on units like Zerglings and Roaches is usually not a good idea!
Another way to use the Snipe ability is to put all of your Ghosts on “Hold Fire” and “Hold position”. This way, you queue Snipe commands with the Shift key, as no attack or move commands are executed when the user actually wants the Ghost to use the Sniper round. However, I do not recommend this version, as your Ghosts won’t attack with their normal attack – less damage is dealt in the end!


Snipe Chart
+ Show Spoiler +
I will show you how many snipes you need to kill each Zerg unit (hint: Snipe ignores the target’s armor). Also I will indicate if the unit is a good target to use the Snipe ability on or not!

- Zergling: 1 Snipe; Sniping is not advised at all!
- Baneling: 1 Snipe; Sniping is advised
- Roach: 4 Snipes; Sniping is not advised
- Hydralisk: 2 Snipes; Sniping is (sometimes) advised
- Mutalisk: 3 Snipes; Sniping is advised
- Corrupter: 5 Snipes; Sniping is not advised
- Broodlord: 6 Snipes; Sniping is advised
- Ultralisk: 13 Snipes; Sniping is advised
- Infestor: 2 Snipes; Sniping is advised
- Drones: 1 Snipe; Sniping is (sometimes) advised


----- ----- ----- ----- -----
The same guide can be found here: http://ballbreakertv.wordpress.com/guides/terran-vs-zerg/798-2/ (printable, editable version).


REPLAYS
http://www.file-upload.net/download-3695761/Ghost-Marauder-Helion---Muta-Ling-Baneling.SC2Replay.html

http://www.file-upload.net/download-3695759/Ghost-Marauder-Helion---Roach-Baneling-Infestor.SC2Replay.html
HINT: In both games I played pretty sloppy. I just came back from my vacation and was pretty tired when I played those games.
More replays are going to come soon .
"Life is like a box of chocolate. You never know what you are going to get." -Forest Gump
askTeivospy
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
1525 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-26 08:36:23
August 26 2011 08:36 GMT
#2
suggestion: for banelings you can just run a cloaked ghost into a group of them and uncloak him and it'll be cost efficient

I do this with DTs and morphing them into an archon in a group of banelings so i'd imagine it would work with ghosts
hihihi
Rixxe
Profile Joined July 2011
United Kingdom136 Posts
August 26 2011 08:37 GMT
#3
Really like this idea of using one of the most versitile units a bit more.
Ghosts are rarely seen till late game, guess they cost a fair amount, and you need to rely on more than just a few.

Nice guide, cheers
*bleep* you up in a gangsta style!
merlin101
Profile Joined July 2010
Switzerland194 Posts
August 26 2011 08:40 GMT
#4
On August 26 2011 17:36 askTeivospy wrote:
suggestion: for banelings you can just run a cloaked ghost into a group of them and uncloak him and it'll be cost efficient

I do this with DTs and morphing them into an archon in a group of banelings so i'd imagine it would work with ghosts

Before uncloaking you could snipe all your energy empty to be even more cost efficient!
gejfsyd
Profile Joined September 2009
Poland156 Posts
August 26 2011 08:44 GMT
#5
I was wondering why none came up with marauder/hellion/ghost before. Its an obvious counter to infestor play. But i dont think its good against mutas. Sure you have ghosts, but zerg can just outmass you and once your ghosts are gone, all your army dies. Ever thought about adding thors when you see mutas?
-Dustin-
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States718 Posts
August 26 2011 08:48 GMT
#6
Very nice guide, I never reliazed why people didn't use Ghosts more often! They are an amazing unit, Snipe is a beautiful spell. Its actually always bothered me about Ghosts I have played vs T using Ghosts and they null my Festors, Broods, AND Ultras. Thats 1 unit type to counter 3? Throw in Hellions and Marauders like you suggest sounds powerful!.

I'm not really sure how I would go about stopping this? I guess the best chance would be to NP a Ghost and EMP the rest but I'm sure you have decent spread going on your Ghosts is that wouldn't be very effective, Also do you mix in medivacs? I know you said harrass with and Hellions but do you continue to produce after the harass?

I don't see being able to beat this when you get to that Ghost count, however my standard in ZvT is a 2 base Burrow Roach with Tunnel +1 timing, It gives me full Sat on 2 base and 4 early Roaches to pressure/defend from Hellions, How would you react to this timing? The Roaches are done with upgrades around 9:30 I believe, and push out. If I recall thats befor you have your Ghost amount, It really depends on your Marauder count at the time of the push if it would work.

I'm not a T but I will try this in 2v2s it sounds like a pretty fun and effective build.

Also I found a typo in your guide. "Mutalisks are pretty common in TvT" in the Mutalisk tab (Pretty obvious).

Will be waiting for the replays.
Mixxx
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany6 Posts
August 26 2011 08:50 GMT
#7
Hi Ballbreaker,

I'm not quite sure if I'm correct at this but afaik 2 snipes don't kill a infestor since one snipe does 45 dmg and a Infestor has 90HP plus the amount of health it regenerates over time. So a Infestor doesn't die from 2 snipes if you don't hit him with another normal shot afterwards.
cptjoe
Profile Joined November 2010
United States78 Posts
August 26 2011 09:21 GMT
#8
On August 26 2011 17:50 Mixxx wrote:
Hi Ballbreaker,

I'm not quite sure if I'm correct at this but afaik 2 snipes don't kill a infestor since one snipe does 45 dmg and a Infestor has 90HP plus the amount of health it regenerates over time. So a Infestor doesn't die from 2 snipes if you don't hit him with another normal shot afterwards.


I'm fairly sure that the idea is to rapid snipe them before the health regenerates. With sufficient APM snipes can land quick enough to accomplish this, especially with multiple ghosts selected. Weirdly the episode of Kings of Tin with Day9 shows how rapid sniping can be; there's a point in the first game where Day9 drops so many snipes so quickly that the opposing team calls him quick-draw mcgraw.
:-P
"Gl hf, foot foot"
Tppz!
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany1449 Posts
August 26 2011 09:27 GMT
#9
Could you explai why ppl should snipe Ultralisks? You need 13 of them and you have Marauders, which kill 100 Ultralisk in less than 1 second.

Another question:
Do we have to much Energy that sniping should be spammed so hard? i dont see me sniping an Infestor when i can EMP them and kinish them off with Marauders + Hellions
cptjoe
Profile Joined November 2010
United States78 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-26 09:44:29
August 26 2011 09:44 GMT
#10
On August 26 2011 18:27 Tppz! wrote:
Could you explai why ppl should snipe Ultralisks? You need 13 of them and you have Marauders, which kill 100 Ultralisk in less than 1 second.

Another question:
Do we have to much Energy that sniping should be spammed so hard? i dont see me sniping an Infestor when i can EMP them and kinish them off with Marauders + Hellions


As far as ultras go, you're not going to only snipe them to death. The 45-90 damage of two snipes is a great addition to marauder fire and can help a lot when there are multiple ultras on the field as it gets around the insane 6 armor fully upgraded ultras have. Mixing in a few is pretty great.

As for infestors, sniping 2 or 3 out of position infestors is really where the 2 snipe kill rule is useful. In large engagements you'd of course emp, but catching 1 or 2 and insta-sniping them is better than using emp and having other units engage them. The amount of time it takes to kill 1 or 2 infestors with snipes is around 5 seconds with solid apm, which is quicker and useful for getting around the speed creep can provide or a burrow for escape.

Snipe is, if of course, situational. Used in the right spots, it's pretty nuts, but it's not always the correct choice.
"Gl hf, foot foot"
godulous
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States337 Posts
August 26 2011 09:45 GMT
#11
On August 26 2011 18:27 Tppz! wrote:
Could you explai why ppl should snipe Ultralisks? You need 13 of them and you have Marauders, which kill 100 Ultralisk in less than 1 second.


Because with a small group of ghosts and shift-queue snipes you can essentially one shot half a dozen ultralisks before they even reach your army. Same goes for brood lords, which ghosts slightly out range.
Playhem.com | Ben.477 US | Ben.1125 EU
ToastieNL
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Netherlands845 Posts
August 26 2011 09:51 GMT
#12
So... How do you deal wiht a Mid/late game flock of mutalisk? Next to it being Extraordinarilly hard to mass enough Snipes, what do you do against someone who makes Overlords and Mutalisk and via Micro keeps them extremely tightly packed so that you can't aim Snipe, and waste a lot on overlords??
Zerg lategame is imbalanced as shit. Also: "Protoss is really strong recently. Perhaps, it's time for there to be some changes for Terran." -MMA. Even MMA asks for buffs. Srsly Blizzard. Srsly.
ToastieNL
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Netherlands845 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-26 10:05:12
August 26 2011 10:02 GMT
#13
You might want to add this to the First Post, to show a potential counter. Namely, MutaLing.

What I'm talking about, how will you deal with this:
[image loading]

Zerg Army:
24 Mutalisk
114 Zergling
18 Overlord
8100m/3000g/105s
+2/+1 Ground
+2/+0 Air
Metabolic Boost, Overlord Speed, Overlord Drop.
+ Show Spoiler [Overview] +
[image loading]


Terran Army:
25 Marauder
12 Hellion
13 Ghost
7300m/3025g/100s
Upgrades
+2/+1 Infantry
+2/+0 Vehicle
Concussive, Stim, Pre-Igniter, Mobius.
+ Show Spoiler [Overview] +
[image loading]


No buildings calculated in.

I'm not completely sure about these numbers, but they seem right. At least, from the Zerg POV, I could say this is where I'd be if I went MutaLing with a Baneling Nest waiting.
So... How do you deal with this?

The outcome; I shift- clicked the Ghost and Sniped to the best of my ability. Which isn't that good, but the outcome is pretty clear...
[image loading]
Zerg lategame is imbalanced as shit. Also: "Protoss is really strong recently. Perhaps, it's time for there to be some changes for Terran." -MMA. Even MMA asks for buffs. Srsly Blizzard. Srsly.
Severus_
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
759 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-26 10:08:31
August 26 2011 10:07 GMT
#14
You will die long time before any T3 if the zerg is smart he will dump all his gas on banes have some zergling and fast upgrades because lack of mutas.No matter how good your splits are you can't stop 25-30 banes without tanks they just roll your army.He can get mutas or infestors later in the game and will be even more sad.
ToastieNL
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Netherlands845 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-26 10:07:58
August 26 2011 10:07 GMT
#15
BAnes wont work. Snipe 1hits, Hellions do splash and still kill them quite fast, Marauders take 20 banelings to kill, you can wall? Banelings are not the answer.
Zerg lategame is imbalanced as shit. Also: "Protoss is really strong recently. Perhaps, it's time for there to be some changes for Terran." -MMA. Even MMA asks for buffs. Srsly Blizzard. Srsly.
evils_death
Profile Joined August 2010
77 Posts
August 26 2011 10:08 GMT
#16
A bit off-topic, but I remember considering something similar to this after reading this: http://www.banelingbbq.com/?comic=11
Severus_
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
759 Posts
August 26 2011 10:09 GMT
#17
On August 26 2011 19:07 ToastieNL wrote:
BAnes wont work. Snipe 1hits, Hellions do splash and still kill them quite fast, Marauders take 20 banelings to kill, you can wall? Banelings are not the answer.

You can tell the same for Marine,Medivac,Hellion they kill everything in the game man nothing can stop them but IT REQUIERS so much micro that nobody can do it so my point still stays.
Skwid1g
Profile Joined April 2011
United States953 Posts
August 26 2011 10:22 GMT
#18
I prefer GhostMech (ghost+tanks mostly) honestly. This seems like it'd be a little weak to BLs/Mass muta switch as a lot of supply will be invested into marauders/tanks.

On August 26 2011 19:09 Severus_ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 26 2011 19:07 ToastieNL wrote:
BAnes wont work. Snipe 1hits, Hellions do splash and still kill them quite fast, Marauders take 20 banelings to kill, you can wall? Banelings are not the answer.

You can tell the same for Marine,Medivac,Hellion they kill everything in the game man nothing can stop them but IT REQUIERS so much micro that nobody can do it so my point still stays.


Wall off + hellions will make it really, REALLY cost inefficient. Plus, that would basically mean the Zerg would be sacrificing a lot of tech/drones if the attack failed. It could definitely work, but it's not a 100% kill for something like this.

NaDa/Fantasy/Zero/Soulkey pls
Ripzone
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany12 Posts
August 26 2011 11:49 GMT
#19
In theory this unit composition sounds pretty good. I have also tried this. The problem is that you cant counter mass Mutas with mass Ghosts, unless they have full energy. Im curious if you have a replay against a heavy Muta composition, because starting ghost production after epanding might be too late. Sure you can build turrets and be safe, but you cant move out, the Zerg will outmacro you.

Maybe switch the Factory at the 9:00 minutes mark to a techleb and build 1-2 Thors against mutas, you could also get blueflame this way.
Ballbreaker
Profile Joined January 2011
Germany97 Posts
August 26 2011 12:51 GMT
#20
On August 26 2011 17:36 askTeivospy wrote:
suggestion: for banelings you can just run a cloaked ghost into a group of them and uncloak him and it'll be cost efficient

I do this with DTs and morphing them into an archon in a group of banelings so i'd imagine it would work with ghosts


Heh that is a pretty good idea. Could kill a lot of Banelings if the Zerg is distracted by a drop or something like that !



Against Mutalisks
In the first post I only described how to react to the first Mutas in the game. If you see your opponent going for mass Muta (which is pretty good against this composition if microed correctly), you should throw down a second Factory, an amory and start pumping a couple of Thors. You still do not want to get too many Thors, as they are rather an immobile unit.
You should start building Thors maybe around the 15 minute mark. Before that, the Zerg will most likely not have a threatening amount of Mutalisks, unless he neglected Upgrades/Tech.



You will die long time before any T3 if the zerg is smart he will dump all his gas on banes have some zergling and fast upgrades because lack of mutas.No matter how good your splits are you can't stop 25-30 banes without tanks they just roll your army.He can get mutas or infestors later in the game and will be even more sad.

Believe me, sniping 30 Banelings is not that hard. Also, if you position your Marauders in the front, Banelings will not do that much damage, as they have a big unit model and are armored.


I will add some Replays once I get home, right now I am in an Airport in the US, waiting for my plane to bring me home .
"Life is like a box of chocolate. You never know what you are going to get." -Forest Gump
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