|
Hi there folks!
You might know me from my Terran blog ( http://www.ballbreakertv.wordpress.com. I am writing guides on the Terran race to help fellow players become a better player.
I am here to provide you a detailed analysis of a rather unknown unit composition in the Terran vs Zerg matchup. I hope you enjoy the guide  !
Here...we...go!
----- ----- ----- ----- -----
Many Terran players seem to have lots of problems when playing against a Zerg opponent. Marine/Tank strongly relies on Positioning and Harassment. Mech is quite immobile and relies on the synergy between Tanks/Thors and Helions. No matter if you play Mech or BioMech, Tier 3 units and especially Infestors are units that give Terrans a hard time.
So…what is good against Tier 3 units AND Infestors? Ghosts! With it’s ability to snipe units over an enormous range and making Infestors useless with the EMP round, the Ghost seems to be the key unit to win a Terran vs Zerg match.
You might say that the Ghost is rather a lategame unit and access to it is quite hard, as producing Ghosts early on vastly cuts into Tank or Thor production. This is of course true, so we have to figure out units that would support early ghost production. We all know that Helions are great versus Zerg, especially against Lings and Workers (haha). As they don’t cost any gas we will use them as our main harassment unit. What happens if the Zerg build Roaches? Well…Terran unfortunately does not have a unit that is good against armored targets and does not cost any gas, but we have the Marauder. It is still pretty cheap in gas and, once Stimpack is researched, has a higher damage output than unsieged Tanks have.
We now have a unit that kills armored targets, the Marauder.
A unit that kills light targets and is great for harassment, the Helion.
And we of course have our core unit, to kill Zerg’s tech units and keep him limited in options, the Ghost.
This is the unit composition that might revolutionize the Terran vs Zerg match-up. I will explain to you it’s strengths and weaknesses and show you how to handle these units properly and use them to great effect.
Early Game
+ Show Spoiler +It does not matter what opening you would like to play. As long as it grants a fast expansion and is relatively safe, you are good to go. Try to pressure your opponent while getting an expansion on your own. Once your expansion is done, you should start working on your Ghosts, so we are going to get a Ghost Academy now.
Mid Game
+ Show Spoiler +Get as many Ghosts as you can, but don’t waste production time by waiting for another 100 Gas. If you can’t afford a Ghost, get a Marauder instead. Just make sure to have about 5 Ghosts at the 11 Minute Mark in case of possible Muta-play (I will describe this later on in more detail).
Helions should be built until you have about 10 of them. You really don’t need more, because, once in big enough numbers, Ghosts are a pretty good counter to Massive Amounts of Lings. If you loose some, while harassing, rebuild them.
A great threat to this composition is a mid-game roach attack. In order to survive such an attack, build 2-3 bunkers at your natural expansion and repair them if needed.
You should start building your third if you have about 5-6 Ghosts (that is at the 11 Minute Mark, as stated above). If you like, you can do the first push. If you don’t, keep pressuring your opponent with Helions and Dropships. Also, spot his third base as soon as you can and try to deny it (a drop with 4 Marauders is great to do so).
Start both of your infantry upgrades at this time!
Late Game (time to shine)
+ Show Spoiler +Usually Zerg becomes really really strong in the late stages of the game, because of Broodlords, Infestors and Ultralisks (maybe in Patch 1.4, as their build time might be reduced).
Unfortunately for Zerg players, the Ghost counters all of these units. If your opponent is at Hive tech, you should at least have about 20 Ghosts, most of them with full energy, which leaves you with almost infinite sniper rounds to quickly kill Broodlords/Infestors and Ultralisks. Let us take a closer look at this late-game scenario.
You have 20 Ghosts. Each of them can snipe about 8 times, assuming they all have full energy. That would result in 240 snipes. Each snipe does 45 damage. That would mean that we could quickly deal about 10000 damage.
The Marauders are there to back your Ghosts up and your Helions will quickly take out Lings and Broodlings.
If you attack a Zerg, make sure to first focus on Mutalisks or Broodlords with your Ghosts. Only your Ghosts are able to kill Air units, so these are the most precious targets!
Taking a lot of Bases is pretty easy with this tactic, as you will be pressuring the Zerg quite a lot. Just make sure to have enough Barracks at home, to quickly reproduce Ghosts and Marauders (although you should really keep an eye on your Ghosts and make sure they don’t die unnecessarily).
Late late late Game
+ Show Spoiler +Battlecruisers and Thors are great against Zerg, so it is good to add them to your Ghosts once you are on 4 or more bases. If you decide to do so, you should halt all Helion production. Harassment is not as important anymore as destroying the Zerg’s many bases, so you should focus on units that have a high damage output.
Mutalisks
+ Show Spoiler +Mutalisks are pretty common in TvT, to secure Mapcontrol for the Zerg player and harass undefended mineral lines. If you don’t react to Mutalisks accordingly, you might loose a fair amount of SCVs, which would set you far behind against a Zerg player that is usually already ahead in workers! Usually you see the first Mutalisks at the 10:30 to 11 minute mark. In order to make his Mutalisks almost useless, you should start building two Engineering Bays at the 9 to 10 Minute Mark and build one or two turrets at each mineral line once you are able to do so! Also, you would like to have a couple of Ghosts (about 5 or 6) when the Mutalisks hit, in order to secure your production facilities and further expansions. Use the Snipe ability to quickly get rid of Mutalisks (3 Snipes per Mutalisk are sufficient, so you should be able to kill 2 Mutas every time he makes a harassment attempt, assuming that you have 6 Ghosts). Once Mutalisks hit a critical number (around the 15 minute mark, assuming he did not neglect upgrades for his ground troops), you should start building some Thors from two Factories! Do not overproduce Thors, 3 to 4 should be more than enough to punish Zergs who try to counter this strategy with massive amounts of Mutalisks (which is, honestly, a pretty good counter, as described in this post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=259174#13
Burrowed Roaches
+ Show Spoiler +Burrowed Roaches are rather rarely seen and don’t really provide a great threat to this unit composition. However, the Roaches can burrow, making them invisible for you and making them regenerate health rapidly. In order to compensate for that, place a turret at your natural expansion and start getting a Raven to detect Roaches underground. You should swap your Starport with one of your Barrack’s tech-labs to buy some time and be more resource-efficient!
Banelings
+ Show Spoiler +The Baneling is probably the unit that is the hardest to deal with. They are great against Helions and ok against clumped Marauders and Ghosts, once in big enough numbers. Sniping them is difficult, due to their small unit model.
You should still try to keep your Marauders in the front when engaging Banelings. Spread them out a little, to negate the Baneling’s splash damage. The Helions will quickly clean up Zerglings and your Ghosts should try to snipe as many Banelings as possible.
Infestors
+ Show Spoiler +Hehe, good one :p.
*EMP them and laugh at the Zerg!*
The Ghost – Terran’s most versatile unit?
+ Show Spoiler +Everyone knows that more and more Zergs use the Infestor as their core unit. They use them to harass (fungal on the mineral line), to achieve map control and to win fights. Why can’t Terrans do the same with the Ghost?, I asked myself. Well…they could, but no one seems to do this yet.
Harassment: Harassing with Ghosts is probably the easiest and most fun part when using them. The cloak ability will be our best friend. Just take 2 to 3 Ghosts, cloak them and attack a mineral line. As they do bonus damage to light, they already two-shot Drones, but their snipe ability is faster and more efficient. 3 Ghosts with full energy would be able to kill up to 18 Drones in no time (each Ghost looses about 50 energy because of the cloaking, therefore each has 6 snipes left), this is far superior than Infestors using fungal growth! 18 Drones dead results in 18 Larva the Zerg has to spend on stuff he usually does not want to. Also 18 Drones cost 900(!) minerals.
Map control: Ghosts don’t really provide as much map control as Infestors do. However, building them grants the same advantage. Detection! EMP detects cloaked units, but unfortunately NOT burrowed units. A Raven is still needed against Zerg and can be a great addition to this composition, when fighting a lot of Mutalisks (the PDD blocks Mutalisk shots, minimizing their threat!
Winning battles: Killing units wins a battle and maybe the game. Ghosts are good at killing units, because of their snipe ability, so we build them ! They make enemy casters useless, can deal enormous damage and don’t take bonus damage from anything, as they are no armored, nor light unit (they are biological and psyonic).
How to: Snipe
+ Show Spoiler +The Snipe-ability is of course essential when using this type of Ghost-heavy strategy. I am aware that a lot of players have issues using the Snipe ability in quick succession, so I will show you the most efficient way to do so and provide you useful tips when engaging!
There is basically only one way to use the Snipe-ability effectively.
When engaging, you keep the Snipe Hotkey (R) pressed and left-click the unit you would like to attack a couple of times. You keep doing this until the engagement is over, or the key Zerg units (Mutalisks, Banelings, Broodlords…) are dead. Wasting Snipes on units like Zerglings and Roaches is usually not a good idea!
Another way to use the Snipe ability is to put all of your Ghosts on “Hold Fire” and “Hold position”. This way, you queue Snipe commands with the Shift key, as no attack or move commands are executed when the user actually wants the Ghost to use the Sniper round. However, I do not recommend this version, as your Ghosts won’t attack with their normal attack – less damage is dealt in the end!
Snipe Chart
+ Show Spoiler +I will show you how many snipes you need to kill each Zerg unit (hint: Snipe ignores the target’s armor). Also I will indicate if the unit is a good target to use the Snipe ability on or not!
- Zergling: 1 Snipe; Sniping is not advised at all!
- Baneling: 1 Snipe; Sniping is advised
- Roach: 4 Snipes; Sniping is not advised
- Hydralisk: 2 Snipes; Sniping is (sometimes) advised
- Mutalisk: 3 Snipes; Sniping is advised
- Corrupter: 5 Snipes; Sniping is not advised
- Broodlord: 6 Snipes; Sniping is advised
- Ultralisk: 13 Snipes; Sniping is advised
- Infestor: 2 Snipes; Sniping is advised
- Drones: 1 Snipe; Sniping is (sometimes) advised
----- ----- ----- ----- -----
The same guide can be found here: http://ballbreakertv.wordpress.com/guides/terran-vs-zerg/798-2/ (printable, editable version).
REPLAYS
http://www.file-upload.net/download-3695761/Ghost-Marauder-Helion---Muta-Ling-Baneling.SC2Replay.html
http://www.file-upload.net/download-3695759/Ghost-Marauder-Helion---Roach-Baneling-Infestor.SC2Replay.html
HINT: In both games I played pretty sloppy. I just came back from my vacation and was pretty tired when I played those games.
More replays are going to come soon .
|
suggestion: for banelings you can just run a cloaked ghost into a group of them and uncloak him and it'll be cost efficient
I do this with DTs and morphing them into an archon in a group of banelings so i'd imagine it would work with ghosts
|
Really like this idea of using one of the most versitile units a bit more.
Ghosts are rarely seen till late game, guess they cost a fair amount, and you need to rely on more than just a few.
Nice guide, cheers
|
On August 26 2011 17:36 askTeivospy wrote:
suggestion: for banelings you can just run a cloaked ghost into a group of them and uncloak him and it'll be cost efficient
I do this with DTs and morphing them into an archon in a group of banelings so i'd imagine it would work with ghosts
Before uncloaking you could snipe all your energy empty to be even more cost efficient!
|
I was wondering why none came up with marauder/hellion/ghost before. Its an obvious counter to infestor play. But i dont think its good against mutas. Sure you have ghosts, but zerg can just outmass you and once your ghosts are gone, all your army dies. Ever thought about adding thors when you see mutas?
|
Very nice guide, I never reliazed why people didn't use Ghosts more often! They are an amazing unit, Snipe is a beautiful spell. Its actually always bothered me about Ghosts I have played vs T using Ghosts and they null my Festors, Broods, AND Ultras. Thats 1 unit type to counter 3? Throw in Hellions and Marauders like you suggest sounds powerful!.
I'm not really sure how I would go about stopping this? I guess the best chance would be to NP a Ghost and EMP the rest but I'm sure you have decent spread going on your Ghosts is that wouldn't be very effective, Also do you mix in medivacs? I know you said harrass with and Hellions but do you continue to produce after the harass?
I don't see being able to beat this when you get to that Ghost count, however my standard in ZvT is a 2 base Burrow Roach with Tunnel +1 timing, It gives me full Sat on 2 base and 4 early Roaches to pressure/defend from Hellions, How would you react to this timing? The Roaches are done with upgrades around 9:30 I believe, and push out. If I recall thats befor you have your Ghost amount, It really depends on your Marauder count at the time of the push if it would work.
I'm not a T but I will try this in 2v2s it sounds like a pretty fun and effective build.
Also I found a typo in your guide. "Mutalisks are pretty common in TvT" in the Mutalisk tab (Pretty obvious).
Will be waiting for the replays.
|
Hi Ballbreaker,
I'm not quite sure if I'm correct at this but afaik 2 snipes don't kill a infestor since one snipe does 45 dmg and a Infestor has 90HP plus the amount of health it regenerates over time. So a Infestor doesn't die from 2 snipes if you don't hit him with another normal shot afterwards.
|
On August 26 2011 17:50 Mixxx wrote:
Hi Ballbreaker,
I'm not quite sure if I'm correct at this but afaik 2 snipes don't kill a infestor since one snipe does 45 dmg and a Infestor has 90HP plus the amount of health it regenerates over time. So a Infestor doesn't die from 2 snipes if you don't hit him with another normal shot afterwards.
I'm fairly sure that the idea is to rapid snipe them before the health regenerates. With sufficient APM snipes can land quick enough to accomplish this, especially with multiple ghosts selected. Weirdly the episode of Kings of Tin with Day9 shows how rapid sniping can be; there's a point in the first game where Day9 drops so many snipes so quickly that the opposing team calls him quick-draw mcgraw.
:-P
|
Could you explai why ppl should snipe Ultralisks? You need 13 of them and you have Marauders, which kill 100 Ultralisk in less than 1 second.
Another question:
Do we have to much Energy that sniping should be spammed so hard? i dont see me sniping an Infestor when i can EMP them and kinish them off with Marauders + Hellions
|
On August 26 2011 18:27 Tppz! wrote:
Could you explai why ppl should snipe Ultralisks? You need 13 of them and you have Marauders, which kill 100 Ultralisk in less than 1 second.
Another question:
Do we have to much Energy that sniping should be spammed so hard? i dont see me sniping an Infestor when i can EMP them and kinish them off with Marauders + Hellions
As far as ultras go, you're not going to only snipe them to death. The 45-90 damage of two snipes is a great addition to marauder fire and can help a lot when there are multiple ultras on the field as it gets around the insane 6 armor fully upgraded ultras have. Mixing in a few is pretty great.
As for infestors, sniping 2 or 3 out of position infestors is really where the 2 snipe kill rule is useful. In large engagements you'd of course emp, but catching 1 or 2 and insta-sniping them is better than using emp and having other units engage them. The amount of time it takes to kill 1 or 2 infestors with snipes is around 5 seconds with solid apm, which is quicker and useful for getting around the speed creep can provide or a burrow for escape.
Snipe is, if of course, situational. Used in the right spots, it's pretty nuts, but it's not always the correct choice.
|
On August 26 2011 18:27 Tppz! wrote:
Could you explai why ppl should snipe Ultralisks? You need 13 of them and you have Marauders, which kill 100 Ultralisk in less than 1 second.
Because with a small group of ghosts and shift-queue snipes you can essentially one shot half a dozen ultralisks before they even reach your army. Same goes for brood lords, which ghosts slightly out range.
|
So... How do you deal wiht a Mid/late game flock of mutalisk? Next to it being Extraordinarilly hard to mass enough Snipes, what do you do against someone who makes Overlords and Mutalisk and via Micro keeps them extremely tightly packed so that you can't aim Snipe, and waste a lot on overlords??
|
You might want to add this to the First Post, to show a potential counter. Namely, MutaLing.
What I'm talking about, how will you deal with this:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/YKdX7.jpg)
Zerg Army:
24 Mutalisk
114 Zergling
18 Overlord
8100m/3000g/105s
+2/+1 Ground
+2/+0 Air
Metabolic Boost, Overlord Speed, Overlord Drop.
+ Show Spoiler [Overview] +
Terran Army:
25 Marauder
12 Hellion
13 Ghost
7300m/3025g/100s
Upgrades
+2/+1 Infantry
+2/+0 Vehicle
Concussive, Stim, Pre-Igniter, Mobius.
+ Show Spoiler [Overview] +
No buildings calculated in.
I'm not completely sure about these numbers, but they seem right. At least, from the Zerg POV, I could say this is where I'd be if I went MutaLing with a Baneling Nest waiting.
So... How do you deal with this?
The outcome; I shift- clicked the Ghost and Sniped to the best of my ability. Which isn't that good, but the outcome is pretty clear...
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/712zz.jpg)
|
You will die long time before any T3 if the zerg is smart he will dump all his gas on banes have some zergling and fast upgrades because lack of mutas.No matter how good your splits are you can't stop 25-30 banes without tanks they just roll your army.He can get mutas or infestors later in the game and will be even more sad.
|
BAnes wont work. Snipe 1hits, Hellions do splash and still kill them quite fast, Marauders take 20 banelings to kill, you can wall? Banelings are not the answer.
|
|
|
On August 26 2011 19:07 ToastieNL wrote:
BAnes wont work. Snipe 1hits, Hellions do splash and still kill them quite fast, Marauders take 20 banelings to kill, you can wall? Banelings are not the answer.
You can tell the same for Marine,Medivac,Hellion they kill everything in the game man nothing can stop them but IT REQUIERS so much micro that nobody can do it so my point still stays.
|
I prefer GhostMech (ghost+tanks mostly) honestly. This seems like it'd be a little weak to BLs/Mass muta switch as a lot of supply will be invested into marauders/tanks.
On August 26 2011 19:09 Severus_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 19:07 ToastieNL wrote:
BAnes wont work. Snipe 1hits, Hellions do splash and still kill them quite fast, Marauders take 20 banelings to kill, you can wall? Banelings are not the answer. You can tell the same for Marine,Medivac,Hellion they kill everything in the game man nothing can stop them but IT REQUIERS so much micro that nobody can do it so my point still stays.
Wall off + hellions will make it really, REALLY cost inefficient. Plus, that would basically mean the Zerg would be sacrificing a lot of tech/drones if the attack failed. It could definitely work, but it's not a 100% kill for something like this.
|
In theory this unit composition sounds pretty good. I have also tried this. The problem is that you cant counter mass Mutas with mass Ghosts, unless they have full energy. Im curious if you have a replay against a heavy Muta composition, because starting ghost production after epanding might be too late. Sure you can build turrets and be safe, but you cant move out, the Zerg will outmacro you.
Maybe switch the Factory at the 9:00 minutes mark to a techleb and build 1-2 Thors against mutas, you could also get blueflame this way.
|
On August 26 2011 17:36 askTeivospy wrote:
suggestion: for banelings you can just run a cloaked ghost into a group of them and uncloak him and it'll be cost efficient
I do this with DTs and morphing them into an archon in a group of banelings so i'd imagine it would work with ghosts
Heh that is a pretty good idea. Could kill a lot of Banelings if the Zerg is distracted by a drop or something like that !
Against Mutalisks
In the first post I only described how to react to the first Mutas in the game. If you see your opponent going for mass Muta (which is pretty good against this composition if microed correctly), you should throw down a second Factory, an amory and start pumping a couple of Thors. You still do not want to get too many Thors, as they are rather an immobile unit.
You should start building Thors maybe around the 15 minute mark. Before that, the Zerg will most likely not have a threatening amount of Mutalisks, unless he neglected Upgrades/Tech.
You will die long time before any T3 if the zerg is smart he will dump all his gas on banes have some zergling and fast upgrades because lack of mutas.No matter how good your splits are you can't stop 25-30 banes without tanks they just roll your army.He can get mutas or infestors later in the game and will be even more sad.
Believe me, sniping 30 Banelings is not that hard. Also, if you position your Marauders in the front, Banelings will not do that much damage, as they have a big unit model and are armored.
I will add some Replays once I get home, right now I am in an Airport in the US, waiting for my plane to bring me home .
|
Burrowed Roaches are rather rarely seen and don’t really provide a great threat to this unit composition. However, the Roaches can burrow, making them invisible for you and making them regenerate health rapidly. In order to compensate for that, EMP the location you suspect Roaches to be in, once and attack the, now revealed, Roaches. He has to either engage or draw back. Regardless what he goes for in the end, he will use units.
I'm sure that EMP doesn't have the ability to reveal burrowed units, only the cloaked units
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/EMP_Round
edit: messed up the liquipedia link
|
On August 26 2011 22:05 frignr wrote:Show nested quote +Burrowed Roaches are rather rarely seen and don’t really provide a great threat to this unit composition. However, the Roaches can burrow, making them invisible for you and making them regenerate health rapidly. In order to compensate for that, EMP the location you suspect Roaches to be in, once and attack the, now revealed, Roaches. He has to either engage or draw back. Regardless what he goes for in the end, he will use units. I'm sure that EMP doesn't have the ability to reveal burrowed units, only the cloaked units http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/EMP_Roundedit: messed up the liquipedia link
True, I did not know that, I thought cloaked and burrowed units would be equally affected by the EMP round. Thanks for the link, though, I will edit the first post .
|
|
|
i have a hard time seeing how this will ever work. i just tried it @ masters lvl, once mutas are out u cannot hellion harass very much at all. and u cannot bring out a few ghosts to fight the mutas in the middle of the map. with ghosts being 200 minerals it is hard to keep hellion count up unless ur talking about turtling until 3 base then maxing and attacking. i moved out while taking my3rd @ 150ish supply and got completely rolled by mass baneling/ ling
|
On August 26 2011 21:51 Ballbreaker wrote:
Against Mutalisks
In the first post I only described how to react to the first Mutas in the game. If you see your opponent going for mass Muta (which is pretty good against this composition if microed correctly), you should throw down a second Factory, an amory and start pumping a couple of Thors. You still do not want to get too many Thors, as they are rather an immobile unit.
You should start building Thors maybe around the 15 minute mark. Before that, the Zerg will most likely not have a threatening amount of Mutalisks, unless he neglected Upgrades/Tech.
I'm fairly certain getting out 20 mutalisk before 15 minute mark takes no skill. At all. Assuming you get Spire at 10.00, you have 5 minutes on 3/4 base gas, which means 5*6 or 5*8 = 30 or 40 Mutalisk, if you invest only in Mutas.
This is without the probably saving of gas up to 800 before Spire pops.
And, my question still remains; how are you going to snipe 25 Mutalisk that are not clumped, but when there's 100 Lings around. If they surround and flank well, the Hellions shouldn't instakill everything, meaning that your mouse accuracy is going to have to be top notch, especially if the Zerg player micros with his mutas still moving while magic boxed, so you have to kill moving targets with snipe.
I honestly think Mass Muta is the answer.
|
On August 27 2011 00:36 ToastieNL wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 21:51 Ballbreaker wrote:
Against Mutalisks
In the first post I only described how to react to the first Mutas in the game. If you see your opponent going for mass Muta (which is pretty good against this composition if microed correctly), you should throw down a second Factory, an amory and start pumping a couple of Thors. You still do not want to get too many Thors, as they are rather an immobile unit.
You should start building Thors maybe around the 15 minute mark. Before that, the Zerg will most likely not have a threatening amount of Mutalisks, unless he neglected Upgrades/Tech. I'm fairly certain getting out 20 mutalisk before 15 minute mark takes no skill. At all. Assuming you get Spire at 10.00, you have 5 minutes on 3/4 base gas, which means 5*6 or 5*8 = 30 or 40 Mutalisk, if you invest only in Mutas. This is without the probably saving of gas up to 800 before Spire pops. And, my question still remains; how are you going to snipe 25 Mutalisk that are not clumped, but when there's 100 Lings around. If they surround and flank well, the Hellions shouldn't instakill everything, meaning that your mouse accuracy is going to have to be top notch, especially if the Zerg player micros with his mutas still moving while magic boxed, so you have to kill moving targets with snipe. I honestly think Mass Muta is the answer.
Well, if a terran starts seeing 40 mutalisks, I'm pretty sure they'll have enough sense to make a few thors to counter them.
mutalisks are clumped= thor kills
mutalisks are separated= ghosts snipe them
|
On August 27 2011 00:45 frignr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2011 00:36 ToastieNL wrote:On August 26 2011 21:51 Ballbreaker wrote:
Against Mutalisks
In the first post I only described how to react to the first Mutas in the game. If you see your opponent going for mass Muta (which is pretty good against this composition if microed correctly), you should throw down a second Factory, an amory and start pumping a couple of Thors. You still do not want to get too many Thors, as they are rather an immobile unit.
You should start building Thors maybe around the 15 minute mark. Before that, the Zerg will most likely not have a threatening amount of Mutalisks, unless he neglected Upgrades/Tech. I'm fairly certain getting out 20 mutalisk before 15 minute mark takes no skill. At all. Assuming you get Spire at 10.00, you have 5 minutes on 3/4 base gas, which means 5*6 or 5*8 = 30 or 40 Mutalisk, if you invest only in Mutas. This is without the probably saving of gas up to 800 before Spire pops. And, my question still remains; how are you going to snipe 25 Mutalisk that are not clumped, but when there's 100 Lings around. If they surround and flank well, the Hellions shouldn't instakill everything, meaning that your mouse accuracy is going to have to be top notch, especially if the Zerg player micros with his mutas still moving while magic boxed, so you have to kill moving targets with snipe. I honestly think Mass Muta is the answer. Well, if a terran starts seeing 40 mutalisks, I'm pretty sure they'll have enough sense to make a few thors to counter them. mutalisks are clumped= thor kills mutalisks are separated= ghosts snipe them
You have to keep in mind that the Ghosting player can only snipe so much. Especially with Overlord/Zerglings all around, your accuracy is going to be significantly lower.
|
And, my question still remains; how are you going to snipe 25 Mutalisk that are not clumped, but when there's 100 Lings around. If they surround and flank well, the Hellions shouldn't instakill everything, meaning that your mouse accuracy is going to have to be top notch, especially if the Zerg player micros with his mutas still moving while magic boxed, so you have to kill moving targets with snipe.
Of course, sniping moving Mutalisks isn't that easy, but manageable. You just have to be accurate with your mouse movement and leftclick every Mutalisk three times to kill it. Also, the normal Ghost damage is pretty high against Mutalisks too (20), so once the Lings are gone you will have a pretty easy time against the Mutas.
10 Hellions with Blueflame roast at least 30 Lings when the Lings run in. The Marauders tank a lot of damage and allow the Hellions to keep killing the lings.Also, Ghosts are great against Lings :p.
I would suggest lower league players to start Thor production a little earlier, as it makes a lot of things easier. If you feel like you are confident about your sniping skills, build Thors later and rely on your Micro for a little longer .
Also, if you see 40 Mutalisks at the 15 minute mark (which is hardly doable), there is nothing against camping in your own base and waiting for Thors and more Ghosts to be produced. If he invests that much in Mutalisks, his Tech will be late and his ling upgrades will be worse than your Infantry upgrades.
Edit: As I said, I am going to upload some replays showing the strategy, once I get home and played some games on my computer (replays are stored on a computer of a friend I visited here in the US).
|
Seems like a great composition
But im concerned about the micro
Constant sniping means other units goes unmicroed
How'd u kite with hellion and marauder while u constant sniping
Assuming mid game muta ling bling engagement
And mineral also being my concern
As ghost cost a lot at 200 min
How many production u will have in 2 bases ?
And thors means additional fac
Which again will cut prod facility
Oh sorry if i asked again
How to snipe properly ?
Holding R and mass clicking the target ? Do we have to click one target multiple time
Coz i read somewhere to hold shift and just click once for each target
|
The best way to snipe is to keep the Snipe hotkey ("R") pressed and then clicking the target as often as necessary (this is why I included the sniping chart). This should be pretty fast.
Microing the other units is of course a little tricky. Just make sure to keep your Helions in the back of your Marauders and micro them away from Banelings.
And mineral also being my concern
As ghost cost a lot at 200 min
How many production u will have in 2 bases ?
And thors means additional fac
Which again will cut prod facility
As I said in the guide, you might want to consider getting a quick third base. This unit composition still lets you apply pressure, although you are taking a "greedy" third base!
On 2 Bases I usually have 4 Barracks, each with a tech-lab, one Factory with a reactor for double Helion production and a Starport. Once I get my third base up, I tend to throw down another factory and get a tech-lab for both, to start double Thor production .
On 2 Bases you will roughly have an income of 1200 Minerals and 400 Gas every minute. Let's say that you build one Ghost (takes about a minute to complete - little less, but let's assume it does) to six Marauders (takes roughly 30 seconds to complete). That would be 800 Minerals and 250 Gas already. Then you would produce 2 Hellions a minute, which would result in another 200 Minerals. Also, you might want to get a Medivac (100/100). This all would result in 1100 Minerals and 350 Gas spend, therefore there is still enough left to upgrade your troops and take an expansion if you cut production a little .
|
Will definitely check the replays once they're up.
On the topic of vs mass muta/ling, I assume you've got a reactor on your factory by this point and 3-5 barracks (not entirely sure how much the mineral income can support since I haven't tried this out). Would it be reasonable to respond to scouting mass muta by (in addition to making 1-2 thors) moving one of the barracks onto the reactor to pump marines + research combat shield from one of the other tech'd barracks? (Particularly since your mid-game indicates 10 or so hellions, it may be worth using marines in the later 2-base into 3-base transition, since this can be the scary time for mutas)
Granted, marines are much less effective with the (relatively) low medivac count, but the combination of 1-2thors + 8-10 marines + 5-6 ghosts should be scary enough to deter overboard muta production, at least until you can get into the snowball phase of crazy ghost numbers (and 3-4 bases)
I could also potentially see a raven or 2 in the late game being very solid to compliment the army (I mean, what else are you going to use the starport for at this point? :p) since PDD helps buffer your army against air and autoturrets mess with ultra pathing.
Couple of thoughts that occurred to me reading through this. Looking forward to replays and seeing this more 'fleshed out' so to speak.
|
I don't mean to be a wet blanket, but this thread is a little sus with a) no replays b) no league listed from OP.
|
what makes people think this is viable vs mutalisks? it's not.
|
I don't mean to be a wet blanket, but this thread is a little sus with a) no replays b) no league listed from OP.
I am a high Master league Terran. This season I have mostly played custom and practice games with a couple of my friends to further improve. Right now my ladder record is kinda messed up, as I played a bunch of Protoss games and lost...almost all of them ^^.
The Replays are coming, as I said!
what makes people think this is viable vs mutalisks? it's not.
What makes you think it is not?
@Everhate
I honestly have never thought about adding in Marines if the Mutalisk count gets to high. Sounds like a great idea though, I will definitely try it out and post the replays here .
|
On August 27 2011 01:45 rmAmnesiac wrote:
what makes people think this is viable vs mutalisks? it's not.
My point, which I have proven twice already. You cannot say Ghost have high normal damage and Lings are nullified upon engagement. You need every hit to be right on the Mutalisk. Which you won't achieve. YOu are going to miss. Often. There's only so many Snipes you can do.
Next to that, a well flanked (means, instant surround) Ling/Baneling army with Mutalisk overhead will thrash the ground army, no matter how well you micro, you are going to be blasted to pieces by the Banelings which require multiple hellion shots and will detonate before dieing. Once Hellions are down (3 Banelings/Hellion, and you are going to be clumped up as that is the best way for this army to fight vs Lings and abuse the splash), you will have Lings on the ground and Mutalisk in the air, with only a couple of ghost.
I have no faith in this build. MutaLingBaneling > MarauderHellionGhost unless Ursadak Bot is playing.
EDIT:
On August 27 2011 01:50 Ballbreaker wrote:What makes you think it is not? @Everhate I honestly have never thought about adding in Marines if the Mutalisk count gets to high. Sounds like a great idea though, I will definitely try it out and post the replays here .
What makes me think it is not is the complete lack of AA out of Snipe, which you can only use so much in a limited time. Mutalisk will rape your butt of, unless you find some way to prove to us that it won't. Show a replay of you beating Mass Mutalisk/Zergling or MutaLingBaneling with this build, in which Zerg is having a good flank and surround, and you have no time to shift- queue Mutalisk with Snipe. I just don't see any way this could work with.
Marines lose to Ling Surrounds/Banelings too, and will autotarget Zerglings over Mutalisk.
Kind Regards
|
On August 27 2011 01:50 Ballbreaker wrote:Show nested quote +I don't mean to be a wet blanket, but this thread is a little sus with a) no replays b) no league listed from OP. I am a high Master league Terran. This season I have mostly played custom and practice games with a couple of my friends to further improve. Right now my ladder record is kinda messed up, as I played a bunch of Protoss games and lost...almost all of them ^^. The Replays are coming, as I said! What makes you think it is not? @Everhate I honestly have never thought about adding in Marines if the Mutalisk count gets to high. Sounds like a great idea though, I will definitely try it out and post the replays here .
I don't think being ranked 57 in your league with a less than 50% winrate can be considered "high masters", any way you put it...
Lets be realistic here: there is no way this build can handle mass banelings, with mass ghosts. Using snipe as a substitute for siege tanks and marines just doesn't work. Somewhere in this post, you say that "sniping 30 banelings isn't hard to do", which I think is a complete lie. If you post a replay of you sniping 30 banelings, that have speed, that are a-moved into your army, then I'll belive you, but I don't think anyone can snipe 30 fast banelings that are coming at you.
|
On August 27 2011 02:08 kofman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2011 01:50 Ballbreaker wrote:I don't mean to be a wet blanket, but this thread is a little sus with a) no replays b) no league listed from OP. I am a high Master league Terran. This season I have mostly played custom and practice games with a couple of my friends to further improve. Right now my ladder record is kinda messed up, as I played a bunch of Protoss games and lost...almost all of them ^^. The Replays are coming, as I said! what makes people think this is viable vs mutalisks? it's not. What makes you think it is not? @Everhate I honestly have never thought about adding in Marines if the Mutalisk count gets to high. Sounds like a great idea though, I will definitely try it out and post the replays here . I don't think being ranked 57 in your league with a less than 50% winrate can be considered "high masters", any way you put it... Lets be realistic here: there is no way this build can handle mass banelings, with mass ghosts. Using snipe as a substitute for siege tanks and marines just doesn't work. Somewhere in this post, you say that "sniping 30 banelings isn't hard to do", which I think is a complete lie. If you post a replay of you sniping 30 banelings, that have speed, that are a-moved into your army, then I'll belive you, but I don't think anyone can snipe 30 fast banelings that are coming at you.
Or 70 Lings, 40 Banes and 25 Mutas, for that matter.
|
yes there is no way to "apply pressure" with this build because of muta flocks shutting down hellion harass/drops. i tried this and im 750 point master at the moment. when i took my third and moved out with 150 supply of ghost/hellion/maurder i got butchered so bad 15ish mutas and about 75 ling/30 blings completely destroyed this it wasnt even funny
|
you will still need marines (if ur going bio) or thors (if ur going mech)
Ghosts do great against Mutalisks, but if he switches to a very heavy muta composition, your ghosts won't be able to cover and protect all the rest of the marauder/hellion army that can't shoot up
and obviously you can stack up on like 8 snipes per ghost but really who is going to be able to press snipe 100 or so times in a couple seconds?
|
On August 27 2011 01:52 ToastieNL wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2011 01:45 rmAmnesiac wrote:
what makes people think this is viable vs mutalisks? it's not. My point, which I have proven twice already. You cannot say Ghost have high normal damage and Lings are nullified upon engagement. You need every hit to be right on the Mutalisk. Which you won't achieve. YOu are going to miss. Often. There's only so many Snipes you can do. Next to that, a well flanked (means, instant surround) Ling/Baneling army with Mutalisk overhead will thrash the ground army, no matter how well you micro, you are going to be blasted to pieces by the Banelings which require multiple hellion shots and will detonate before dieing. Once Hellions are down (3 Banelings/Hellion, and you are going to be clumped up as that is the best way for this army to fight vs Lings and abuse the splash), you will have Lings on the ground and Mutalisk in the air, with only a couple of ghost. I have no faith in this build. MutaLingBaneling > MarauderHellionGhost unless Ursadak Bot is playing. EDIT: Show nested quote +On August 27 2011 01:50 Ballbreaker wrote:what makes people think this is viable vs mutalisks? it's not. What makes you think it is not? @Everhate I honestly have never thought about adding in Marines if the Mutalisk count gets to high. Sounds like a great idea though, I will definitely try it out and post the replays here . What makes me think it is not is the complete lack of AA out of Snipe, which you can only use so much in a limited time. Mutalisk will rape your butt of, unless you find some way to prove to us that it won't. Show a replay of you beating Mass Mutalisk/Zergling or MutaLingBaneling with this build, in which Zerg is having a good flank and surround, and you have no time to shift- queue Mutalisk with Snipe. I just don't see any way this could work with. Marines lose to Ling Surrounds/Banelings too, and will autotarget Zerglings over Mutalisk. Kind Regards
ghosts can't catch mutalisks. turrets don't cut it vs muta play, they are there to delay for marine or thors to defend. mutalisks are either to produce en masse. and mutalisks can kill your ghostts far faster than you can possibly snipe those tiny little things,
|
This must require immense micro but I absolutely want to try it out!
|
I think that this strategy, while it has potential, would require at least one thor at all times once the zerg gets a decent number of mutalisks.
One thor would nullify mutalisk stacking and would also help against mutalisk harass as one of the best strengths of the marine is how mobile it is with stim and forgoing marines could leave a large vulnerability to mutalisk harass as ghosts are so slow.
|
There's so many flaws;
- No pressure
- Weak in an ArmyvArmy battle
- To microintensive to work
- No proof/replays
- Standard Zerg composition beats it
|
It works but you can't open Marauder/Hellion or it can quickly become an all in. You have to get ghosts fast which may allow a timing for Zerg to murder you with air or just murder you because you went for too much tech too fast. So you really have to do marine bio->hellion->marauder+ghost instead of marauder+hellion->ghost.
|
For some reason people vastly underrate ghosts vs. mutalisk, I guess partly due to the fact that you rarely see ghosts.
It's not hard to snipe mutas and ghosts are REALLY good against mutas, especially with upgrades. 20+ damage AA and snipe makes mutas just melt.
|
On August 26 2011 19:22 Skwid1g wrote:I prefer GhostMech (ghost+tanks mostly) honestly. This seems like it'd be a little weak to BLs/Mass muta switch as a lot of supply will be invested into marauders/tanks. Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 19:09 Severus_ wrote:On August 26 2011 19:07 ToastieNL wrote:
BAnes wont work. Snipe 1hits, Hellions do splash and still kill them quite fast, Marauders take 20 banelings to kill, you can wall? Banelings are not the answer. You can tell the same for Marine,Medivac,Hellion they kill everything in the game man nothing can stop them but IT REQUIERS so much micro that nobody can do it so my point still stays. Wall off + hellions will make it really, REALLY cost inefficient. Plus, that would basically mean the Zerg would be sacrificing a lot of tech/drones if the attack failed. It could definitely work, but it's not a 100% kill for something like this.
Wall off ? what are you talking about you can't wall off on open field....with this comp you have no map control zerg can counter attack you,expand all over the map. You have no way to stop benling drops on your army or any drops at your main without any AA only ghosts witch sux because their fire rate is slow comepre to marines. For this to work you need APM cloes to the automaton movies....can't see it working vs any decent player.
|
On August 27 2011 03:33 Skwid1g wrote:
For some reason people vastly underrate ghosts vs. mutalisk, I guess partly due to the fact that you rarely see ghosts.
It's not hard to snipe mutas and ghosts are REALLY good against mutas, especially with upgrades. 20+ damage AA and snipe makes mutas just melt.
It's not hard to snipe mutas when they are harassing your base.
It is, however, ridiculously hard to snipe them enough to make a giant difference in a large battle, and it's hard to justify using apm on snipe when using apm on something like marine splitting/tank target firing/stutter stepping makes a much bigger difference.
|
On August 27 2011 02:43 rmAmnesiac wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2011 01:52 ToastieNL wrote:On August 27 2011 01:45 rmAmnesiac wrote:
what makes people think this is viable vs mutalisks? it's not. My point, which I have proven twice already. You cannot say Ghost have high normal damage and Lings are nullified upon engagement. You need every hit to be right on the Mutalisk. Which you won't achieve. YOu are going to miss. Often. There's only so many Snipes you can do. Next to that, a well flanked (means, instant surround) Ling/Baneling army with Mutalisk overhead will thrash the ground army, no matter how well you micro, you are going to be blasted to pieces by the Banelings which require multiple hellion shots and will detonate before dieing. Once Hellions are down (3 Banelings/Hellion, and you are going to be clumped up as that is the best way for this army to fight vs Lings and abuse the splash), you will have Lings on the ground and Mutalisk in the air, with only a couple of ghost. I have no faith in this build. MutaLingBaneling > MarauderHellionGhost unless Ursadak Bot is playing. EDIT: On August 27 2011 01:50 Ballbreaker wrote:what makes people think this is viable vs mutalisks? it's not. What makes you think it is not? @Everhate I honestly have never thought about adding in Marines if the Mutalisk count gets to high. Sounds like a great idea though, I will definitely try it out and post the replays here . What makes me think it is not is the complete lack of AA out of Snipe, which you can only use so much in a limited time. Mutalisk will rape your butt of, unless you find some way to prove to us that it won't. Show a replay of you beating Mass Mutalisk/Zergling or MutaLingBaneling with this build, in which Zerg is having a good flank and surround, and you have no time to shift- queue Mutalisk with Snipe. I just don't see any way this could work with. Marines lose to Ling Surrounds/Banelings too, and will autotarget Zerglings over Mutalisk. Kind Regards ghosts can't catch mutalisks. turrets don't cut it vs muta play, they are there to delay for marine or thors to defend. mutalisks are either to produce en masse. and mutalisks can kill your ghostts far faster than you can possibly snipe those tiny little things,
if you're playing mech, and depending on the map, you can heavily turret the 1-2 sides that lead into your main/base(s), so that you don't need to worry about going back home, instead of spreading turrets here and there which just get picked off over and over again (you're just gonna sink that money into hellions anyways, so sometimes it is worth it)
On August 27 2011 03:57 Validity wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2011 03:33 Skwid1g wrote:
For some reason people vastly underrate ghosts vs. mutalisk, I guess partly due to the fact that you rarely see ghosts.
It's not hard to snipe mutas and ghosts are REALLY good against mutas, especially with upgrades. 20+ damage AA and snipe makes mutas just melt. It's not hard to snipe mutas when they are harassing your base. It is, however, ridiculously hard to snipe them enough to make a giant difference in a large battle, and it's hard to justify using apm on snipe when using apm on something like marine splitting/tank target firing/stutter stepping makes a much bigger difference.
Good point, and because of the added micro via snipe, that also helps ghosts synergize with mech (since you don't need to micro much, unlike you do with tanks and marines where u split the marines and snipe infestors/blings with tanks, etc etc...)
|
This is a viable composition against anything, it's getting there that is a problem.
You kind of have to be smart with your resource distribution and unit composition, that's a big thing. Ghosts should always be extremely high in numbers, and they must be retained.
In even numbers, Ghosts will destroy mutas. Ghosts are mutas are even when there are less Ghosts, especially with snipe.
The only problem I foresee is the mobility of the mutas, and this composition is very mineral heavy, so turrets will HEAVILY take away from your main army...
|
United States15275 Posts
Question:
This unit composition sounds rather dependent on medivacs. How will you secure the necessary gas to make them?
|
On August 27 2011 05:23 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Question:
This unit composition sounds rather dependent on medivacs. How will you secure the necessary gas to make them?
Why would it be dependent on medivac? They wouldnt be bad at all and i would say add them as well since you will have surplus of gas anyways considering all your money is distributed into mineral and none in the gas area.
You will die to banelings and lings and mutas. I also dont believe you are in high master. No way such unit mix can work in high master. Post a replay and your ranking and stuff to prove your credibility.
How are you going to split your marauders, snipe and control hellion so they dont die to banelings. How are you going to deal with the surplus of gas? If you add thor in there then it nothing new. Marauder hellion thor was semi popular 7 month back but then people found infestor rapes that and banelings are cost efficient vs that as well.
People saying hellion are good vs banelings, you have no idea how bad they are vs banelings. They are pretty terrible because banelings are not LIGHT so even if you kill them, banelings splash kill kill your hellion. Hellion are light so they die too. \
Let me ask you, WHAT is the purpose of the marauders? They are there to do nothing but die vs lings banelings mutas.
|
United States15275 Posts
On August 27 2011 05:42 SheaR619 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2011 05:23 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Question:
This unit composition sounds rather dependent on medivacs. How will you secure the necessary gas to make them? Why would it be dependent on medivac? They wouldnt be bad at all and i would say add them as well since you will have surplus of gas anyways considering all your money is distributed into mineral and none in the gas area. You will die to banelings and lings and mutas. I also dont believe you are in high master. No way such build can work in high master. Post a replay and your ranking and stuff. How are you going to split your marauders, snipe and control hellion so they dont die to banelings. How are you going to deal with the surplus of gas? If you add thor in there then it nothing new. Marauder hellion thor was semi popular 7 month back but then people found infestor rapes that and banelings are cost efficient vs that as well. People saying hellion are good vs banelings, you have no idea how bad they are vs banelings. They are pretty terrible because banelings are not LIGHT so even if you kill them, banelings splash kill kill your hellion. Hellion are light so they die too.
Because it's an infantry-heavy composition. Without medivacs you cannot slowly advance with it, so all attacks would be reduced to timing pushes or 200/200 engagments.
|
Well, can this composition handle 40 mutas? If it can't, then it's not going to work because a lot of zergs literally just mass muta.
|
Why does everybody try to stray away from the Marine so hard?
The Marine is the single hardest unit for Zerg to deal with in the MU considering there is no mass-marine killing unit.
Fungal takes energy and Banelings die on attack.
The hardest part about late-game ZvT is managing the 10+ marines that are popping out of Ts base every 25 seconds.
Please by all means, do ANYTHING but mass marines in late-game ZvT. It only makes things easier on Zerg.
|
Definitely can work and want to see some replays of that. But before that, this is nothing but theory craft. Out of curiosity, which league are you in OP? Or i am just too blind to find it in it >.>
|
On August 27 2011 06:03 Jermstuddog wrote:
Why does everybody try to stray away from the Marine so hard?
The Marine is the single hardest unit for Zerg to deal with in the MU considering there is no mass-marine killing unit.
Fungal takes energy and Banelings die on attack.
The hardest part about late-game ZvT is managing the 10+ marines that are popping out of Ts base every 25 seconds.
Please by all means, do ANYTHING but mass marines in late-game ZvT. It only makes things easier on Zerg.
Probably because 9 broodlords + 10+infestors can take out infinite numbers of marines.
|
theres no way this will work. Standard ling bling muta wrecks this build so hard, since you don't have tanks to deal with the critical mass of banelings flooding in. They'll wreck bio so hard regardless of armor property since the full splash AoE compensates for it
|
On August 27 2011 06:19 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2011 06:03 Jermstuddog wrote:
Why does everybody try to stray away from the Marine so hard?
The Marine is the single hardest unit for Zerg to deal with in the MU considering there is no mass-marine killing unit.
Fungal takes energy and Banelings die on attack.
The hardest part about late-game ZvT is managing the 10+ marines that are popping out of Ts base every 25 seconds.
Please by all means, do ANYTHING but mass marines in late-game ZvT. It only makes things easier on Zerg. Probably because 9 broodlords + 10+infestors can take out infinite numbers of marines.
That's also 3750+ gas. Imagine what 20 tanks and 16+ vikings can do to a Zerg!
|
I expressed doubt in my earlier post, and you really shouldn't have posted the thread without at least one replay demonstrating the concept...but I'm also not here to shit on you with theorycraft.
To all you guys who say it's total bullshit:
* From my experience, base ghost damage is really good against muta. With the addition of snipe, you can decimate the ranks of a typical mid-game muta ball (12-15 mutas) in a couple of seconds.
* Ghosts and Marauders are both extremely hard to kill with banelings, and so you don't need to snipe all of them to prevent your army from dying.
That said, it won't hold up to MASS muta - but then, so do a lot of standard compositions, like stalkers.
|
United Kingdom1439 Posts
And if your opponent goes Baneling or muta heavy? Ghosts are in too limited amounts by the midgame to snipe every single mutalisk, plus as good as hellions are at dealing damage to light units and as good as marauders are at soaking Baneling splash like a sponge, I feel like one good bust can end you.
|
On August 27 2011 01:52 ToastieNL wrote:
What makes me think it is not is the complete lack of AA out of Snipe, which you can only use so much in a limited time. Mutalisk will rape your butt of, unless you find some way to prove to us that it won't. Show a replay of you beating Mass Mutalisk/Zergling or MutaLingBaneling with this build, in which Zerg is having a good flank and surround, and you have no time to shift- queue Mutalisk with Snipe. I just don't see any way this could work with.
Marines lose to Ling Surrounds/Banelings too, and will autotarget Zerglings over Mutalisk.
Kind Regards
Please stop spouting such utter nonsense. You're asking people to prove that the Terran army can win a fight while giving Zerg every possible advantage in the engagement. A good flank AND surround? ANY Terran army will die to that. It's a downright stupid requirement for "proof". Next thing you know we'll be judging ZvT builds on Zerg's ability to attack straight into a narrow Terran-controlled chokepoint with masses of sieged Tanks & PF's waiting and if it fails (gee I wonder?) it's a fail build. Get real.
Now back to reality, Ghosts actually own Mutas pretty hard and in fact own them even harder the larger the armies get. I managed to get ~15 Ghosts to kiIl 30 Mutas (both at 1/1, Ghosts had ~100 energy). It's impossible to miss Snipes against a massive Muta ball. Clicking ANYWHERE will result in hits on Mutas. That's absurdly cost efficient any way you slice it. I'm pretty sure pure Muta/Ling would get annihilated since the Terran could simply skimp on Marauders for more Ghosts and Helions. Muta/Ling/Bane would probably be more troublesome since you would have to control the Marauders to soak Banelings while focusing the Ghosts on the Mutas. I'd actually be most scared of MASS banelings since then Marauders can't soak all of that, helions don't kill them fast enough, and there's way too many to snipe.
|
On August 27 2011 07:13 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2011 06:19 avilo wrote:On August 27 2011 06:03 Jermstuddog wrote:
Why does everybody try to stray away from the Marine so hard?
The Marine is the single hardest unit for Zerg to deal with in the MU considering there is no mass-marine killing unit.
Fungal takes energy and Banelings die on attack.
The hardest part about late-game ZvT is managing the 10+ marines that are popping out of Ts base every 25 seconds.
Please by all means, do ANYTHING but mass marines in late-game ZvT. It only makes things easier on Zerg. Probably because 9 broodlords + 10+infestors can take out infinite numbers of marines. That's also 3750+ gas. Imagine what 20 tanks and 16+ vikings can do to a Zerg!
Against broodlord infestor not much.
|
I check his ranking on sc2 ranking. He looks like a low master possible mid master at the most considering he says he is on vacation. So ya.....doesnt seem to high to me. He also has a 12win 15 lost ratio atm too.
http://sc2ranks.com/eu/1185470/Ballbreaker
|
Just tried using this composition after doing a reactor hellion expand, sadly it is obvious that this build is rather unrefined but in these games it worked pretty well. I don't know how it will work out for and against good players, but it might have potential.
Game 1
Game 2
Game 3
p.s. i watched mlg while playing those games so forgive my slipups in terms of hellion harass
|
Have you tested this against straight muta? if a player starts out with muta ling, trades with your army, and then magic boxes 40 over your ghost/thor remains, what do you do?
|
I think that might be a problem, but if you harass well and maybe refine your build in a way that you can push right before mutas are done (i assume u mean 2base muta), so around 9 minutes, you can punish the zerg pretty hard for teching straight to mutas, and with like 2 turrets at each base and a few ghosts you should be in a great position defensively. It remains to be tested though. And 40 mutas are like 4000/4000 which is a pretty large amount of ressources, so i do not think that many mutas will be out fast.
|
On August 27 2011 07:13 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2011 06:19 avilo wrote:On August 27 2011 06:03 Jermstuddog wrote:
Why does everybody try to stray away from the Marine so hard?
The Marine is the single hardest unit for Zerg to deal with in the MU considering there is no mass-marine killing unit.
Fungal takes energy and Banelings die on attack.
The hardest part about late-game ZvT is managing the 10+ marines that are popping out of Ts base every 25 seconds.
Please by all means, do ANYTHING but mass marines in late-game ZvT. It only makes things easier on Zerg. Probably because 9 broodlords + 10+infestors can take out infinite numbers of marines. That's also 3750+ gas. Imagine what 20 tanks and 16+ vikings can do to a Zerg!
Good point. I think most people forget how expensive Broodlords are. 10 or so BLs with an army and infestors is very scary, but it's so expensive.
Anyway, better to use 15 thors and 7 ghosts as an example xD.
|
On August 27 2011 14:34 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2011 07:13 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 27 2011 06:19 avilo wrote:On August 27 2011 06:03 Jermstuddog wrote:
Why does everybody try to stray away from the Marine so hard?
The Marine is the single hardest unit for Zerg to deal with in the MU considering there is no mass-marine killing unit.
Fungal takes energy and Banelings die on attack.
The hardest part about late-game ZvT is managing the 10+ marines that are popping out of Ts base every 25 seconds.
Please by all means, do ANYTHING but mass marines in late-game ZvT. It only makes things easier on Zerg. Probably because 9 broodlords + 10+infestors can take out infinite numbers of marines. That's also 3750+ gas. Imagine what 20 tanks and 16+ vikings can do to a Zerg! Good point. I think most people forget how expensive Broodlords are. 10 or so BLs with an army and infestors is very scary, but it's so expensive. Anyway, better to use 15 thors and 7 ghosts as an example xD.
True, but infestor broodlord is a mega death ball. It almost invincible with good infestor fungal control.
|
Not exactly a composition you want to start off, early enough in game, you won't have the mineral income to support all 3 mineral heavy units. (with so much tech and time invested in it) It definitely can work, but early in the game, muta timing can be a nightmare for you, and roach broodlord infestor is not that bad against a ghost mixed in composition, but of course, Ghost is all around anti-everything unit that terran used against protoss in almost every situation, i am sure it can also work in T v Z. Now, only if they make EMP a research or make ghost cost 150 gas again 
Would love to see some high master players try this out against equally matched zerg player.
EDIT: As players previously mentioned, bling drop and 1. just 1 well placed fungal can be the end of you.
|
just got someone in ladder do this to me...
he was low masters or top8 diamond, cant remember (it was on my friends acc).
he got crushed badly by roachling early game, then once infestors and ultras kicked in it was easy.
only dangerous thing was taking care of his ghosts while not having my overseers sniped. but it was easy.
|
On August 27 2011 09:46 Sevenofnines wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2011 01:52 ToastieNL wrote:
What makes me think it is not is the complete lack of AA out of Snipe, which you can only use so much in a limited time. Mutalisk will rape your butt of, unless you find some way to prove to us that it won't. Show a replay of you beating Mass Mutalisk/Zergling or MutaLingBaneling with this build, in which Zerg is having a good flank and surround, and you have no time to shift- queue Mutalisk with Snipe. I just don't see any way this could work with.
Marines lose to Ling Surrounds/Banelings too, and will autotarget Zerglings over Mutalisk.
Kind Regards Please stop spouting such utter nonsense. You're asking people to prove that the Terran army can win a fight while giving Zerg every possible advantage in the engagement. A good flank AND surround? ANY Terran army will die to that. It's a downright stupid requirement for "proof". Next thing you know we'll be judging ZvT builds on Zerg's ability to attack straight into a narrow Terran-controlled chokepoint with masses of sieged Tanks & PF's waiting and if it fails (gee I wonder?) it's a fail build. Get real. Now back to reality, Ghosts actually own Mutas pretty hard and in fact own them even harder the larger the armies get. I managed to get ~15 Ghosts to kiIl 30 Mutas (both at 1/1, Ghosts had ~100 energy). It's impossible to miss Snipes against a massive Muta ball. Clicking ANYWHERE will result in hits on Mutas. That's absurdly cost efficient any way you slice it. I'm pretty sure pure Muta/Ling would get annihilated since the Terran could simply skimp on Marauders for more Ghosts and Helions. Muta/Ling/Bane would probably be more troublesome since you would have to control the Marauders to soak Banelings while focusing the Ghosts on the Mutas. I'd actually be most scared of MASS banelings since then Marauders can't soak all of that, helions don't kill them fast enough, and there's way too many to snipe.
imho the problem is ghost's energy dont replenish faster than muta's production
i doubt ghost won against mass muta without snipe
|
It does take 5 bane hits to take down a ghost you know...
I have no idea how this is meant to play out, none of the criticism in this thread seems valid other than WHERE ARE THE REPLAYS.
Comparing a mid-game style to "HOW DOES IT BEAT ZERGS END GAME TIER 3.5 ARMY" - not valid argument.
Saying a build with hellions and ghosts can't harass - not a valid argument.
Saying weird extreme muta builds may stop a composition that can probaby adapt to keep pace - not really valid theorycraft.
That said...WHERE ARE THE REPLAYS. I'm starting to think the OP might have ninja posted this and isn't coming back now.
|
Zergs lately have been switching to teir 3 to early lately, and this build would work for zergs who operate like that. But if a zerg starts seeing ghosts and mauraders, whats the point in switching from ling bling muta to infestor brood/ultra when the counters are already being used by the terran
|
On August 26 2011 17:25 Ballbreaker wrote:
Mutalisks
Mutalisks are pretty common in TvT
Just something I noticed you don't usually see mutas in TvT
|
30 muta = you can't defend harrassment without groups of 10 marines around your base
|
On August 28 2011 01:42 Vertical wrote:
imho the problem is ghost's energy dont replenish faster than muta's production
i doubt ghost won against mass muta without snipe
Like I mentioned, the Ghosts had ~100 energy and of course I used Snipe. I consistently had 4-5 Ghosts surviving. You won't rebuild 30 Mutas before the energy regens well over 100, and any new Ghosts made would start with 75 energy with Mobius. Bottomline is that Mutas are the least of your worries. Some kind of mass Baneling/Roach would probably be the most dangerous.
|
On August 28 2011 03:20 Sevenofnines wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 01:42 Vertical wrote:
imho the problem is ghost's energy dont replenish faster than muta's production
i doubt ghost won against mass muta without snipe
Like I mentioned, the Ghosts had ~100 energy and of course I used Snipe. I consistently had 4-5 Ghosts surviving. You won't rebuild 30 Mutas before the energy regens well over 100, and any new Ghosts made would start with 75 energy with Mobius. Bottomline is that Mutas are the least of your worries. Some kind of mass Baneling/Roach would probably be the most dangerous.
I think what he is trying to say is that zerg can spawn 12 mutas at once while you will have a hard time just producing 2 ghost at once. Considering that you need to keep your ghost together, because if you dont then they will get pick off, you need to make turrets. Making turrets will cut down on ghost counts too. Ghost arent like marine and are much slower so it harder to defend from mutas too. I am pretty sure when zerg has about 15 mutas you will only have about 3 ghost at the most and you will be stuck in your base for a while until you have enough and your giving him free map control. But i wana see replay on how well this build fairs against certain timings.
|
On August 28 2011 02:14 Glon wrote:
30 muta = you can't defend harrassment without groups of 10 marines around your base
Turrets w/ range + 1 Thor. No amount of muta can break it.
|
On August 29 2011 02:12 DaemonX wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 02:14 Glon wrote:
30 muta = you can't defend harrassment without groups of 10 marines around your base Turrets w/ range + 1 Thor. No amount of muta can break it.
30 mutas vs a thor and turrets? I'd take those odds. Kill the thor, leave, kill the turrets, kill everything.
Mutalisks are pretty common in TvT
I think this is a cool strategy to play against but I'd definitely want to get out thors a minute or so faster. You don't want to be making your first thors when mutalisk numbers are hitting 40 O.O
|
I remember when i saw a qxc's replay using this army composition. Although that match was a loooong time ago.
Really i don't know if this "build" is viable/safe to do in ladder.... but anyways it looks awesome.
Is necessary to share replays to see it in action in the current ladder.
Anyone wanna share replays with us? :p
|
Hi there
I just uploaded some replays.
Please note that I was pretty tired when I played the games, so I did not use the game to its greatest potential!
I hope the replays give you a little better insight on how the composition works!
|
Well i guess this wouldn't be good against mutas, but really. who has the money for mutas when you're going infestors. So you should only build ghosts against infestors. otherwise get thors. though the problem with thors is that your army becomes really hard to manage with all the different speeds of the units. hellions-marauders-thors. either way, I don't think you'd want to attack with mutas and all you have are a couple of thors. thors without marines equals very susceptible to the magic box trick.
|
On August 29 2011 09:00 Ballbreaker wrote:Hi there I just uploaded some replays. Please note that I was pretty tired when I played the games, so I did not use the game to its greatest potential! I hope the replays give you a little better insight on how the composition works!
Hi dude, i'm sorry i didn't see your replays posted previously LOL
Ok, i'm gonna see your replays :D thank you a lot!
Regards!
|
On August 29 2011 09:00 Ballbreaker wrote:Hi there I just uploaded some replays. Please note that I was pretty tired when I played the games, so I did not use the game to its greatest potential! I hope the replays give you a little better insight on how the composition works!
gonna check it out later on tonight
i hope you play against the much maligned muta's
|
On August 27 2011 03:37 Severus_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 19:22 Skwid1g wrote:I prefer GhostMech (ghost+tanks mostly) honestly. This seems like it'd be a little weak to BLs/Mass muta switch as a lot of supply will be invested into marauders/tanks. On August 26 2011 19:09 Severus_ wrote:On August 26 2011 19:07 ToastieNL wrote:
BAnes wont work. Snipe 1hits, Hellions do splash and still kill them quite fast, Marauders take 20 banelings to kill, you can wall? Banelings are not the answer. You can tell the same for Marine,Medivac,Hellion they kill everything in the game man nothing can stop them but IT REQUIERS so much micro that nobody can do it so my point still stays. Wall off + hellions will make it really, REALLY cost inefficient. Plus, that would basically mean the Zerg would be sacrificing a lot of tech/drones if the attack failed. It could definitely work, but it's not a 100% kill for something like this. Wall off ? what are you talking about you can't wall off on open field....with this comp you have no map control zerg can counter attack you,expand all over the map. You have no way to stop benling drops on your army or any drops at your main without any AA only ghosts witch sux because their fire rate is slow comepre to marines. For this to work you need APM cloes to the automaton movies....can't see it working vs any decent player.
Oh, I thought you meant a huge baneling bust, but instead you mean a Zerg not teching at all and sitting on 2/3 bases (you're NOT holding a 4th with no infestors or mutas against a terran that can drop) which is just dumb.
And ghost's AA is bad? What? They shoot relatively slow but hit pretty damn hard and snipe is ridiculous against mutas.
|
I was going to make my own thread but decided to see if something like this existed yet or not... turns out something similar does exist so ill post it here
So, I main as zerg, and I recently decided to get another account for terran/screwing around and started playing with heavy ghosts (like constantly having 20 ghosts). My first one last week was ghost/hellion/reaper (which still crushed but ate too much gas and the reapers were too fragile) and today I was trying another method... ghost/hellion/medivac leading into (optimally) ghost/hellion/medivac/tank (dropping medivac production for tanks once you have enough of them). Because my terran is absolutely horrible, I ended up not getting tanks until late and had way too many medivacs due to my habit of always having production (and still macroing bad with not enough buildings >.>). However, regardless of that... it dominated a roach/infestor zerg.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/NuMm9.jpg)
http://drop.sc/29780
Really though, what CAN zerg do against an endgame composition of ghost/hellion/tank/medivac? Hell, I dont know why I am contributing to the death of my main race...
|
With the new patch...would ravens be a succesful addition to this composition? HSM etc good against banes and mutas. My worry is the gas intensity ;s
|
On August 29 2011 16:44 Blind86 wrote:
With the new patch...would ravens be a succesful addition to this composition? HSM etc good against banes and mutas. My worry is the gas intensity ;s
I imagine after the patch getting a raven or two will be good in all matchups, but I dont think it would really be necessary.
Honestly, I think Ghost/Hellion/Tank/Medivac is so good it could break the matchup
|
I think very viable for a roach/infestor or ling/bling infestor player, but I really can't see this working all too well for a mutaling player. I know you said it works well early game and if a player is committed to muta you should get a few thors, but i'm fearful of the transition. committing to marauders against a composition full of lings doesn't seem like a good idea, and that gas eats away at thor production since you're already getting ghosts. Would love to see some more replays against a mutaling player, as I'm skeptical about the composition as well as your ability to put on pressure against a zerg.Really diggin the mobility aspect of it though. I always thought it'd be interesting to put off the ghosts for a bit and go viking marauder hellion. If you start viking production early (which you absolutely can do no problem) you'll be fine against mutalisks, and vikings get the extra bonus from air upgrades as well.
|
With the new patch...would ravens be a succesful addition to this composition? HSM etc good against banes and mutas. My worry is the gas intensity ;s
Adding Ravens to this composition could be really helpful after the patch once you are on three or more bases. I wouldn't try this on only two bases though, as it cuts dramatically into your Ghost production!
I think very viable for a roach/infestor or ling/bling infestor player, but I really can't see this working all too well for a mutaling player. I know you said it works well early game and if a player is committed to muta you should get a few thors, but i'm fearful of the transition. committing to marauders against a composition full of lings doesn't seem like a good idea, and that gas eats away at thor production since you're already getting ghosts. Would love to see some more replays against a mutaling player, as I'm skeptical about the composition as well as your ability to put on pressure against a zerg.Really diggin the mobility aspect of it though. I always thought it'd be interesting to put off the ghosts for a bit and go viking marauder hellion. If you start viking production early (which you absolutely can do no problem) you'll be fine against mutalisks, and vikings get the extra bonus from air upgrades as well.
You basically try to build as many Ghosts as you can with this composition. If you don't have the gas to build one, get a Marauder instead to have a constant production cycle. This is great against Mutaling players. You will reach 20 Ghosts really really fast.
However, if you scout a lot of Roaches, you should definitely build more Marauders than Ghosts and get a faster third base (as it is easier to secure with Bunkers/Planetary Fortresses, etc...). Of course, getting no Ghosts is not beneficial as well, as Infestors will probably give you a hard time if you only have Marauders and a couple of Hellions!
|
this will only work with seige. if u go straight bio and hellions mutas will clean up ur hellions as well as lings. it is just too much work and so many scenarios where this isnt viable. hence why it is not in the meta game. it seems the only tricky new builds incorporate the early game harass. as you move to tier 3 ghosts are a mere support unit. however with thors splash damage ghosts are great at picking off mutas in the red. tanks, thors, 15 ghosts, and mm composition is very deadly. with turrets in the middle of the map and cloak you can emp the infestors and move in for the win with tanks and army.
|
I really cant understand how you hope to survive without marines. The real reason marines are so good TvZ is because they are good against everything thus they nullify tech switches. Hellion marauder ghost might survive 30+ mutalisk if you make 20 ghosts but will die to the next batch of zergling/roach/bling where your ghosts dont count for shit.
|
As a platinum random who hates (i.e. sucks at) marine/tank play, thank you for this! this has brought fun back into my TvZs, I won all my TvZs tonight and had a good time doing it. I went with a 1rax expand into 3 rax, adding on the eng bays and factory when i could afford it.
I also find this build is great for newbie macro practice. I only switched to playing random recently and I still have a lot of problems keeping constant scv and army production. but this seems to make me focus. I think because ghosts are so mineral hungry early game and I notice that i'm low on minerals all the time and am reminded to build scvs, then I notice later that I suddenly stop getting "you require more minerals" messages which triggers me to build more production facilities.
I'm definitely no expert, but I love ghosts in TvZ. watching the zergs muta ball disappear over the 'pew pew pew' sounds brings a smile to my face and makes me hope I never run into it in ZvT!
|
I watched the replays, thanks for finally posting...but they weren't really that helpful in showing how to execute this build.
In first game, you already won the game when you killed 50 (!) drones with a BFH drop. The transition you made to win was merely a formality - you could have killed him with marines or battlecruisers at that point.
The other game, you badly out-macrod your zerg opponent who left your naked, orbital command 3rd/4th totally untouched. Again, playing such an inferior opponent doesn't really show how to safely pull this off, you could have killed have killed him with anything at all when your economy was was triple his.
I tried this vs a decent opponent (low masters practice partner) and after opening bunker pressure, he smashed it with 80 drones by the 10 minute mark. I held off mutas comfortably, and my ghost harass killed 10-15 workers, but it wasn't enough and I lost 3 ghosts which I probably needed later - then he happily morphed 4 overseers when I tried to snipe off the first few, and counterattacked with 120 supply of baneling ling and cracked my natural by 13mins. 3 bunkers of stuff didn't start to hold him off.
Please, more replays showing the transition, or post a working build order as I'd like this to work.
|
i feel like mutas would actually do pretty well, even with the thors out. mutas, once they get to that critical amount of ~10 become very hard to deal with ghosts, as mutas are more cost efficient then ghosts, more mobile, and their splash is pretty good once they get in large numbers. and once the thors come out all the zerg has to do is magic box the thors
(http://www.youtube.com/user/PsyStarcraft?blend=1&ob=5#p/search/0/68H8FeZHkWg
and
http://www.youtube.com/user/remembertomorrow0#p/c/428377145DE3B169/2/TjO7gPmUqlo)
which means that thors isnt necessarily the best response. i doubt that even keeping ghosts with your thors worud help as ghosts are pretty fragile and the splash from that many mutas would be doing terrible, terrible damage. once the thors and ghosts are dealt with then the marauders and helions are easy pickings. all the zerg player has to do is mass enough of a unit to be able to hold the marauder/ helion force long enough for the mutas to finish the thors.
the only way i could see a terran dealing with this is one of two routes.
the first one: mass viking. although not as fast as mutas, they are tankier and are able to dish out some good damage if the are massed fast enough.
the second one would be to constantly harass the zerg (which is viable considering the hellions) into specifically delaying their gas. however, it is semi easy for some zerg players to deal with harassment. the roach range means that if the terran player wants to do enough damage he has to mass enough hellions that he can sack a few of them or suicide them in groups of ~4. and if he tries to bring in marauders it is fairly easy to get a flank on marauders with speedlings. i know that some of you would argue that losing a few hellions to kill a few drones is a good thing, but if you think about it, a hellion only costs 100 minerals, meaning that if you want to come out of this exchange even then you have to atleast kill two drones for every hellion you lose (which is why suiciding 4 is good. a fully saturated base for 400 minerals worth of troops is pretty good.) however, once you factor in the blue flame upgrade, it means that each hellion now costs 250 minerals and 150 gas (100 cost + the 150 minerals and the 150 gas) meaning that all the zerg player has to do to make the exchange even is kill 1 blue flame hellion for every 5 drones, which is pretty easy since you can run your drones away while running your army in. and you will probably only ever be able to harass a good zerg player once.
personally, i would opt for the mass vikings. its harder to counter unless the zerg was already going hydra in which case marauders will eat them alive
|
On August 26 2011 17:48 -Dustin- wrote:
Its actually always bothered me about Ghosts I have played vs T using Ghosts and they null my Festors, Broods, AND Ultras.
they don't actually null them, they just make them beatable. infestors, broods, and ultras are still incredibly incredibly strong.
|
hellion harass will get shut down and by the time u can safely take ur 3rd zerg will have 80drones and u are screwed. he can pretty much spread creep at will and when u move out you have to walk onto the creep to clear it and ling/baneling alone will rape this composition so hard its not even funny
|
On August 30 2011 08:50 DaemonX wrote:
In first game, you already won the game when you killed 50 (!) drones with a BFH drop. The transition you made to win was merely a formality - you could have killed him with marines or battlecruisers at that point.
The other game, you badly out-macrod your zerg opponent who left your naked, orbital command 3rd/4th totally untouched. Again, playing such an inferior opponent doesn't really show how to safely pull this off, you could have killed have killed him with anything at all when your economy was was triple his.
This. Your build is unconventional, but that doesn't necessarily make it good. In both of the example replays you posted, the zerg player was severely outplayed.
There is a lot of theorycrafting going on in this thread, which I don't think is very useful.
At most, this seems like an "insult build", something clumsy and unwieldy you do on purpose to humiliate a lesser opponent. Unless you can provide replays with competent zergs fighting against this, I don't think most people (myself included) will take this seriously.
|
I think that as zerg, if you tech drop and ovi speed, and maybe drop banelings on hellions/ghosts, you cant go sniping overlords as they come in as you just bring loads 90% are empty.
Without marines you have no way to kill the OLs and bane drops will just kill everything.
Mid masters Zerg on EU, would like to play some games with someone practicing this strat?
|
it's nice theorycraft but marines do too much dps to be ignored
in zergling vs hellion, because it's such a micro dependent battle, 4 hellions will do good vs 12 zerglings, but 20 hellions won't do so good against 60 zerglings
the bigger problem is that if you're making ghosts, you have less gas for medivacs
marines are good because they have nice range and with stim are essentially a ranged zergling on dps, so they plow through everything before it can close the gap. the same principle applies to mutas
|
I tried experimenting with this a couple of weeks ago myself...it has potential but I couldn't get it to work against good Zs
|
|
|
in my opinion this isn't really a guide at all we need some sort of timings and a refined build order or way to transition into the play...
|
On August 30 2011 23:39 ozeake wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 08:50 DaemonX wrote:
In first game, you already won the game when you killed 50 (!) drones with a BFH drop. The transition you made to win was merely a formality - you could have killed him with marines or battlecruisers at that point.
The other game, you badly out-macrod your zerg opponent who left your naked, orbital command 3rd/4th totally untouched. Again, playing such an inferior opponent doesn't really show how to safely pull this off, you could have killed have killed him with anything at all when your economy was was triple his.
This. Your build is unconventional, but that doesn't necessarily make it good. In both of the example replays you posted, the zerg player was severely outplayed. There is a lot of theorycrafting going on in this thread, which I don't think is very useful. At most, this seems like an "insult build", something clumsy and unwieldy you do on purpose to humiliate a lesser opponent. Unless you can provide replays with competent zergs fighting against this, I don't think most people (myself included) will take this seriously.
I feel the same after watching the replay as well. You were just clearly better than the zerg. The zerg handled the hellion drop really really poorly and didnt spread his overlord well at all like any good zerg would. Until a good replay is shown purely showing the power of this build and in different situation and timing, it not convincing enough.
|
Best way for snipe is to hit 'Snipe' on the target, then after that, hold shift and repeat 'Snipe' on all targets. You won't overkill anything, and as long as you don't hit Shift+Snipe first (which will queue as the last command in a set, so if they were moving or a-moving somewhere, they will run to that location first, meaning they'll suicide into the army before sniping)and hit regular Snipe first (which will override any existing cmomands and make snipe the priority), it'll kill things faster than regeneration.
|
I just saw the replays and as i said before, this strategy has great potential... it would be nice if you can post more replays to see a lot of variations for this opening/strategy.
Can't find those qxc's replays to post here. >.<
Regards!!
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GzgVk.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/hIW1I.jpg)
