EPT[G] StimmedProbe's TvP 1-1-1 All-in/Contain - Page 4
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tainted muffin
United States158 Posts
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kckkryptonite
1126 Posts
On August 11 2011 03:58 Blazinghand wrote: It's not an issue of Protoss "breaking" this contain. Once you've arrived at the protoss base, he has about 30 seconds before you're unbreakable, and he has to attack then. Once you have a bunch of bunkers and wall pieces laying around, it becomes impossible for the short-ranged protoss units to fight tanks effectively. This was kind of my point, every 1-1-1 all-in pulls SCVs and has the potential to turn into a contain (which happens a ton in the GSL) and when you're building two/three bunkers, he's either going to break you then or he isn't - most likely. | ||
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epicanthic
Hong Kong295 Posts
Jokes aside, this variation of the 1/1/1's interesting, but I'm still going to stick with the 2base version of it. If you 1base, protoss is instantly going to know that an allin's on its way, with how the current metagame is going. If I'm going to allin, I prefer make it even a little bit unexpected rather than completely prepared for. Great writeup though! | ||
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DaemonX
545 Posts
Questions: 1) How do you deal with a hard 4-gate? I don't see how 5 marines and maybe a bunker can keep you alive. I mean you may see the initial force move out with the hellion, but you have less than the 45 seconds required to get bunkers up to respond. Normally you survive 4-gates by using marauders to keep you alive long enough for bunkers to get up... 2) What do you do if he uses early gateway aggression ie pokes your ramp with stalker at 4 mins, picks off marines and micros, then when you push, stalker kites you ALL THE WAY back to his natural? That shit is what put me back onto bio in the first place. | ||
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juw
76 Posts
On August 10 2011 21:03 greggy wrote: You obviously put some time into this so I guess it's only fair that I put some time to pick your guide apart. Firstly, this isn't the strongest 111 allin possible. The (well-known) 4tanks 3 banshess no raven or hellions or cloak or any other nonsense (a la boxer v incontrol @mlg anaheim) is much stronger than this. This gets to my base - as you said at around 9:40 and I'm pretty sure that with some stalker harassment I could delay you to about 10:00. The allin I'm describing is at my base at 9:00 or so. Secondly, 1gate fe (robo before or after the nexus) IS the correct response to this allin. See QTIP's or L3g3nd's guides to stopping it. Many other pro protosses counter this allin with expand. Thirdly, the counters to this build you mention are somewhat laughable. Thermal lance colossi? Not a chance if the build - even as imperfect as yours - is executed well. You'll have 1 colossus with second on the way when this push hits and it's nowhere near enough, so the terran will just 1a you. Charge doesn't finish in time either. I also find it laughable that you describe your build as "unstoppable", "strongest", "insane", etc. In addition to these statements being simply untrue, you'd expect the replays to show you win each time against the direct counter - namely mass zealot/1-2 sentries/some stalkers to kill banshees/immortals - but in none of your replays did the protoss go for the BO that wins against this. High Masters here and yeah I agree. This is mostly standard composition (minus the hellions which IMO makes your push weaker). I have been countering reliably with FE and zealot heavy army. Unstoppable? More like a free win. And all those who don't understand the matchup, please don't post just to say the guide is "well written". I know you like pretty pictures and formatting but you are not adding anything useful. | ||
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Jesushooves
Canada553 Posts
On August 11 2011 09:57 tainted muffin wrote: I'm pretty sure this is the original Tasteless build. Agreed, please change title to "Tasteless 1/1/1 allin" | ||
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chipman
United States139 Posts
But I might just add a disadvantage of this build. If you get a raven instead of banshee you will have aprox 1 less banshee and 1 less tank, and probably be floating some extra minerals. I suppose you can use these to use an offensive scan for good positioning or get a random backup command or something... It probably won't be that many minerals being floated/not a big deal. Also the moment the observer sees a raven the protoss knows he doesn't need a second observer, he doesn't need to make more than his initial stalkers (additional should only be warped in after the tank/marine army is dead). I have seen 1/1/1 lose straight up to 1 offensive dt 1 defensive dt without raven though so there's that for a positive, but you already mentioned that. Dt's easily come in time, even with an expand in the time it takes for a 9 minute push to cross the map. | ||
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rfoster
United States1005 Posts
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RoboBob
United States798 Posts
The 1 base SCV/Marine/Tank/Raven/Banshee has been around ever since the first season of GSL. The first player I saw use it was PoltPrime, and its a big reason why his TvP winrate is so high. Either his opponents fear it so he outmacros, or they don't prepare sufficiently and he crushes. MVP also used relatively the same build recently in the GSL. I'm sure plenty of foreigners have done similar builds. I understand that if you haven't seen those games and you came up with this build on your own, you might be mistaken into thinking that your build is unique. But if you're going to write a guide and claim credit for the idea, please do some research before posting. The fact that it has been so successful in the GSL adds to the guides' credibility, and mentioning speciic GSL matches would really help readers understand the different variations. | ||
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Th1rdEye
United States1074 Posts
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vicml21
Canada165 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25560 Posts
On August 13 2011 01:13 RoboBob wrote: This is a great guide. My only complaint, like most great guides, is slapping your name onto the build like you own it. The 1 base SCV/Marine/Tank/Raven/Banshee has been around ever since the first season of GSL. The first player I saw use it was PoltPrime, and its a big reason why his TvP winrate is so high. Either his opponents fear it so he outmacros, or they don't prepare sufficiently and he crushes. MVP also used relatively the same build recently in the GSL. I'm sure plenty of foreigners have done similar builds. I understand that if you haven't seen those games and you came up with this build on your own, you might be mistaken into thinking that your build is unique. But if you're going to write a guide and claim credit for the idea, please do some research before posting. The fact that it has been so successful in the GSL adds to the guides' credibility, and mentioning speciic GSL matches would really help readers understand the different variations. I'm fairly sure this isn't a guide to 1-1-1 in general, or the more specific  Polt Timing Attack (named after Polt) but rather a variation that gets siege mode and builds statics and walls in/near the protoss natural to make a contain. | ||
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DaemonX
545 Posts
Specifically: - the relatively late banshee means you don't harass as much with it, but - the early raven to cancel scouting, and just the general emphasis on information denial. - Bringing a high scv count to the push and - skipping cloak, - fast siege mode and - an odd 9 minute timing that comes after most 1-1-1 move outs but well before 2-base 1-1-1 pushes. I quite enjoy it, it handles a large variety of protoss compositions and isn't answerable by cheese. | ||
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itkovian
United States1763 Posts
I'll be practicing this, with some other new builds, against cpus next week since I won't have internet in my apt lol | ||
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StimmedProbe
Hong Kong98 Posts
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wheelchairs
United States145 Posts
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Squigly
United Kingdom629 Posts
On August 11 2011 02:46 eieio wrote: Thank you for this guide. I really appreciate the effort on what to do when you push out and the advice on getting a contain. However, I do not think that your build is optimal for getting the composition you talk about. Here is the fastest way I know of to obtain your desired composition (20 marines, 3 hellions, 2 tanks, siege tech, raven (before banshees), 2 banshees): + Show Spoiler + 10 Supply Depot 11 Refinery 14 Barracks 18 Supply Depot 18 Factory 19 Barracks (begin to cut scvs unless you see it specified) 19 Orbital Command 19 Marine 20 Starport 20 Marine 21 Refinery 21 SCV 22 Marine 23 Marine 24 Supply Depot 24 Factory Tech Lab 24 Starport Tech Lab 24 Marine 25 Marine 26 Marine 27 Hellion 29 Raven 31 Supply Depot 31 Marine 32 SCV 33 Marine 34 Hellion 36 Marine 37 Supply Depot 37 Marine 38 Marine 39 Banshee 42 Hellion 44 Marine 45 Marine 46 Siege Tank 49 Supply Depot 49 Siege Tech 49 Marine 50 Marine 51 Marine 52 Banshee 55 Calldown Supplies 55 Marine 56 Siege Tank 59 SCV 60 Marine 61 Marine 62 SCV This gives you 23 scvs, 20 marines, 3 hellions, 2 tanks, siege tech, raven, and 2 banshees at about 8:29, which seems significantly faster than your build. (The main differences are that it cuts scvs, goes gas first, and gets 2 rax instead of a reactor) edit: That being said, I'm not convinced that the build I posted is optimal either; it's just a faster way to get the exact composition you discussed. With riskier play and fewer marines I think you can push out closer to the 8 minute mark, which could be very very brutal. Could you comment on this? Also im worried about the hard 4 gate owning this | ||
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Hydrox911
United Kingdom261 Posts
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Tonem
Australia91 Posts
On August 23 2011 01:10 Squigly wrote: Could you comment on this? Also im worried about the hard 4 gate owning this Although faster, I don't think this would be optimal for the 1-1-1 variation stimmedprobe is going for. An important part of the strategy is being able to bring those 12+ scvs, and still having scvs left home mining allowing you to continue constant production. Cutting scvs would either force you to bring a lot less scvs or pretty much halt your reinforcement capabilities. Also as for raven vs extra banshee, there's definitely pros for both, however I think getting the raven first is slightly better. The first pro is that it blind hard counters any dt play (this has happened twice for me using this build - admittedly if you normally get an extra banshee you could probably just get a raven instead if you scout fast double gas). If the Protoss sees the Raven when they scout with obs (or other) they are probably less likely to build as many stalkers as they might have. This will allow your banshees that you have to dominate even more as they can take out the stalkers and they are free to wreck terror. And I've found that just generally the PDD is much better then having an extra banshee because it soaks up so much damage. Seriously if you keep rallying banshees while you contain, the opponent can literally not beat you for AA if you have 2 PDD's up, and the occasional damage stalkers will take from walking into tank range. Edit: @4gate comments, the 4 gate is pretty easy to scout, tbh. If you aren't scouting the 4 gate in time to get up bunkers then you will lose with pretty much any build, i think this is a non factor. I have faced a 4 gate with this build my self and honestly all you need is a couple (or 3 to be safe) bunkers +wall + scvs. By the time the 4 gate hits you should have enough units to fill up the 2 bunkers (or at least mostly fill them - Thank-you 4gate nerf). Usually I will build my 3rd bunker after i've already started my first two, this means if one of them goes down I have another bunker to fall back into. Get seige tank + seige as fast as possible if they try to set up a contain, then just seige up and it will force them to back away, now you proceed to kill them once you've got your raven/couple banshees. Remember you are on one base and only have one small narrow choke to defend so bunkers do very well. This is free win once you hold off the 4 gate (Protoss cannot support 4 gates for extended time for 1), and 2) will probably cut units to get their economy back after the failed 4 gate - unless of course they are expecting you to all-in them, in which case it still doesn't matter because you will roll them  ). | ||
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Kevincible
Canada70 Posts
Could it be because he wants to harass MC's mineral line ASAP？ | ||
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