Greetings TL! It’s StimmedProbe back again with another extremely strong TvP strategy which I have been trying out and tweaking the last few weeks. As you may know if you have been laddering or browsing TL the last few weeks, the 1-1-1 all-in has become the ‘flavor of the month’. There are many variations of this build out there, but below I will detail the strongest way I have found to do the build. In addition to the extremely optimized and crisp build order, I will also detail how to execute the attack properly, which may include an insane contain at his natural. The nickname my friends and I have given this style of play is “The boa constrictor” style, you’ll see why in a bit.
Traditional 1-1-1 builds are strong and often times can win a game straight off if the Protoss makes mistakes or has the wrong army composition. However extremely good players can hold it off to some degree so it is often better to setup a contain and slowly kill him. I found out that it is often better to just use the units to force yourself to a good position on the map and setup a wicked contain instead. If you can plant some supply depots, bunkers and maybe even a barracks or engineering bay, the chance of the Protoss breaking it goes down to virtually 0.
The build order needs to be crisp. A very crisp build order can get you to diamond/masters league without much effort. In order to beat higher level people though you will need to execute the attack and contain properly. I have experimented with a bunch of tweaks and this is the strongest build I have found. Practice with an AI for a game or two to get the flow of the build down, it is not very hard to do properly in my opinion. It requires about 50-60 apm, if you don’t poke with the hellion too much and don’t harass with the initial banshee.
Make sure you patrol with the raven/marines around the edge to prevent scouting. Also make sure the factory and starport are next to each other to swap add-ons quickly. Do not lose any units if you can help it. If the initial hellion gets hurt repair it. A final note is that if you get your gas stolen or see a void ray, you will need to skip the raven and/or build a Viking. In total you will have 3 air units when it is time to push out, the exact air composition you have will vary from game to game, but the ground composition will remain exactly the same. A final note, if you suspect a 4 gate/early pressure build 3 marines, then a bunker then a reactor. Without any further ado here is the build order:
Constant SCV Production Assumed* 10 Supply Depot 12 Barracks -> Constant Marines till you have 5 13 Refinery 15 Orbital Command 16 Supply Depot 18 Factory 20 Refinery 22 Supply 25 Starport 25 Hellion 28 Reactor on Rax -> Constant marines once done 29 Supply 29 Tech lab on factory -> send hellion to scout 31 Swap Starport onto Tech lab and make a Raven -> Make two banshees once done 35 Tech lab on factory 36 Depot 39 Seige tank from factory -> Make another once done -> Two hellions after Keep up with depots here 66 siege mode (8 minutes) Push at around 80 food (9 minutes)
I personally hate food numbers, and learn quicker through watching someone do it so here is a video of me performing the build. A replay of the build is located below in the replay section of this guide if you need further reference.
Push with 20 marines, 3 hellions, 2 seige tanks, 2 banshees and 1 raven and 12-16 scvs. Rally reinforcements in, make sure you shift que through the meaty units so your rally points don’t get reset or messed up. You should leave your base before 9 minutes and arrive at around 9:40.
Scout ahead with the hellions to clear out towers and get a good sense of where the enemy army is at. Do not use PDD, your army is stronger than his no matter what and you can just force your way across the map. If your army is significantly stronger just “go fucking kill him” as day9 would say. However there is a chance that your opponent either a.) is much better than you and has macroed better (unlikely if you follow the build order guide/video) OR b.) went for a good counter to this all in (chargelot /immortal namely) OR c.) went for fast thermal-lance colo so you can’t exactly push into his base Leroy Jenkins style.
If you can’t directly kill him off, simply move into range of your opponent’s natural. Once you are within range of the natural siege up, and start building 3 bunkers.
You can bring the banshees along to force your way across the map, or you can use them to harass the back of the Protoss base. This sort of depends on your mechanics and your opponent’s army composition and size, this is something you just gotta figure out on the fly.
Once you setup your contain, make sure you rally reinforcements to there and setup everything in a good position. Once you got an iron contain setup, send one hellion around to look for hidden expos and use your banshees actively if you can as well. The main point is by now you have either won already or you are forcing one base vs. one base.
Your opponent will react in one of two ways. He might go for a base trade, in which you just lol and lift your buildings towards your contain and send your army up to go kill his main. Base trading is heavily in the Terran’s favor, so just go for it.
Alternatively he may try to break out, which is more likely. After you setup a super strong contain, they can’t get out basically. When they attempt to get out, you should have a good laugh.
If you have made an engineering bay, research building armor, if you have a barracks use it to block ground movement or scout the high ground. Try to wall-in and build as much stuff as you can to mess with the zealot ai and stalker firing. Try to make it look something like this:
If your main runs out of minerals, just lift your cc and move down to your natural. When the protoss runs out, they are basically dead because they will have to long range mine (assuming they can even do that). They will be behind 400 minerals and the 60 seconds it takes to build a nexus. Another point to note is that one base vs one base you earn roughly 1000 minerals because of mules, whereas your opponent earns roughly 800. Just sit tight until your opponent either base trades with you, or attempts to run into the meat grinder.
I have been getting a lot of comments about why I think my army composition is the strongest. I will elaborate here a little bit.
The army composition I have is as follows: 20 marines, 3 hellions, 2 siege tanks, 2 banshees, 1 raven, 12-16 scvs @8:45. No cloak, no stim/shield, only siege mode.
1.) Why siege mode? -> You may get forcefielded into your base, and having siege mode will help you break out more efficiently. In addition you will need siege mode to contain properly.
2.) Why no cloak? -> Cloak is useless and eats up a tremendous amount of gas.
3.) Why get a raven? -> The raven protects you from DTs and helps your banshees survive the battle. The raven also allows you to instantly wall in with three auto turrets if you need to (offensively or defensively!). You get 3 air units from the starport before it is time to push, I believe 1 raven + 2 banshees is stronger than 3 banshees, especially if you build the raven first.
4.) Why no infantry upgrades? -> Gas constraints, plus you need a reactor on your rax to have a decent amount of marines.
5.) Why use the factory to get hellion/tank/tank/hellion/hellion -> The first hellion is used to scout for proxy pylons and to get a little bit of map control. The two tanks after are to use the gas optimally. You will notice after you make two tanks, you will be gas broke and in order to afford siege mode and keep up with banshee production you will need to cut siege tanks after you get two of them.
6.) Why bring SCVs -> Because BitByBit does. Just kidding =] They can tank, repair, construct and mess with the zealot AI. They are a critical part of the army composition. You need them to ensure victory.
I hope you enjoy the slight twist on the traditional 1-1-1 build that I have come up with. This style of play is quite fun and really reminded me of some old school Brood War builds I used to use. Have fun!
Here are five replays to illustrate the 5 main possibilities that can happen in a game when you attempt the strategy above. I also attached a replay of the build order.
Here are the 5 possibilities: 1.) You just ‘go fucking kill him’ 2.) He engages you before you get your contain up 3.) He attempts a base trade 4.) He tries to break the contain 5.) Hybrid of the above
1.) In this game I tell my practice partner what I am going to do, and he decides to go for a one gate expand into fast robo tech. Seeing as he powered too hard and his army size is small I just decide to ‘go fucking kill him’ directly, the game ends quite quickly after his army evaporates to mine. (Masters level opponent)
2.) This is a game from the semi-finals of a tournament I recently won. In this game my opponent expands relatively quickly and when he sees my push coming attempts to stop it with all his units and some probes. He tries twice before giving up. (GM level opponent)
3.) This is a game from the grand finals of the same tournament as above. In this game I push across the map and my opponent attempts to stop me. After trading armies, I have a few tanks and a few marines left and setup a contain. My opponent then decides to build up a bit then go for a base trade. Classic example of why you shouldn’t attempt a base trade with terran. (GM level opponent)
4.) In this game my clan mate and good friend goes 3gate robo for a gateway/immortal break. I am able to push towards his base but I am not able to push directly up into his main, so I setup a contain instead. I continue to strengthen the contain and for the luls I float my main CC over his main and land at his natural. He attempts to break the contain and dies. Good illustration of how to setup a good contain. (Masters level opponent)
5.) This is another game from the grand finals, in this game my opponent gets out very fast thermal lance colossus. This makes pushing quite difficult, I am able to setup half of a contain before he goes for a break. I barely hold and decide to push up the ramp. He is able to break the contain, but another wave of units allows me to setup another contain, which he attempts to break. (GM level opponent)
6.) Here is a replay of me against an AI executing the normal standard build for reference.
Slapping your name in the title when you're just describing one version of a well-known and widely-used build is pretty poor form.
I'm also not too clear on what you feel is unique about your build, other than that you include a couple of unupgraded hellions and advocate researching building armour(?).
@Jumbled Its a twist on the really popular 1-1-1 build (I have no idea who first came up with this build, i think it was PoltPrime in season 1?), basically the unit composition allows you to setup something like this: http://www.freeimagehosting.net/newuploads/1e303.jpg Really good players I have found, don't directly die to this all-in anymore, so after playing around a bit I found that contains are the best way to kill off your opponent.
@ch33psh33p Oh what build did MVP do? I didn't watch the GSL yesterday sorry.
Especially when MVP did a better version just yesterday.
This. Doesn't make sense to make such a thread when the world's (arguably) best terran just showed us how yesterday. You could at least make mention of where it's been seen and take your name out. It's nice to want to help people though
Edit: Shouldnt be too harsh then if you didn't watch + Show Spoiler +
It doesnt matter what he calls it, we all know that its the most common and most effective TvP allin
All the terrans should be grateful that he wrote up a solid guide so those that don't know how to do it do, and all the protoss should be quaking in fear as now everybody will do this to you on Xel'Naga
Thank you for writing up a great looking guide with replays. This is the kind of stuff that needs to be in the strategy forum.
I was going to point out why I think your build is inferior to others I have seen/encountered but to be honest I would prefer that the Terrans out there did your version. Nice work!
On August 10 2011 14:24 Myrddraal wrote: I was going to point out why I think your build is inferior to others I have seen/encountered but to be honest I would prefer that the Terrans out there did your version. Nice work!
Wow, man, way to subtly BM, but without any pretense of a legitimate criticism ._.
I think this is a great build! It's hard to use tanks in TvP, and by using buildings, bunkers, etc you can set up a solid contain and force a very unusual game-- a 1 base TvP. The only thing I would be worried about would be some sort of counterattack harass, but in the event that protoss overinvests in something techie and tries to take our your base (like, say, DTs) you can always just go kill him, as StimmedProbe has noted.
Nonstandard and very interesting! I'll try it on ladder and return with more replays
would be great if you would further explain what exacly triggers you to stop pushing and starting a contain instead. because from my expirience (and im doing the 1-1-1 style vs protoss alot) its might get really hard to know if u can 1-A or not.
On August 10 2011 14:33 Lemonerer wrote: would be great if you would further explain what exacly triggers you to stop pushing and starting a contain instead. because from my expirience (and im doing the 1-1-1 style vs protoss alot) its might get really hard to know if u can 1-A or not.
Very good question. Normally I try to feel it out with my first hellion and what I can tell about their army composition. Generally I just push as far as I can then setup a contain. I recommend being careful in just 'trying to directly kill him' if you don't know much about his army composition. Better safe than sorry basically. The main point of the strategy is to just hold his natural till he does something.
isn't this just another version of the standard marine banshee tank raven all in popular? I see the only difference is it doesn't incorporate expoing at all while you push, so if in fact it does fail, there really is no way to come back...
On August 10 2011 14:24 Myrddraal wrote: I was going to point out why I think your build is inferior to others I have seen/encountered but to be honest I would prefer that the Terrans out there did your version. Nice work!
Wow, man, way to subtly BM, but without any pretense of a legitimate criticism ._.
I think this is a great build! It's hard to use tanks in TvP, and by using buildings, bunkers, etc you can set up a solid contain and force a very unusual game-- a 1 base TvP. The only thing I would be worried about would be some sort of counterattack harass, but in the event that protoss overinvests in something techie and tries to take our your base (like, say, DTs) you can always just go kill him, as StimmedProbe has noted.
Nonstandard and very interesting! I'll try it on ladder and return with more replays
Any criticism would just be assisting my opponents in pulling off an all-in that is already way too easy to do. I guess it doesn't really matter, every Terran on SEA has already been pulling off similar builds for months now.
I'm sorry, but in what way does this force 1-base vs 1-base? I might be going crazy here but, as far as I know, the 1-1-1 all-in has ALWAYS been defendable with a 1-gate expo build. In fact, 1-gate expo is probably the preferable way to deal with this.
I don't care what others say but this is interesting and not all people know about the 1/1/1 all in. In fact, i knew there were some builds but this is the first good written build i read here.
So, thanks for posting this. I am very intrigued to try it.
So far, I have been fixing my TvZ and neglected my other matchups which I suck so hopefully this build might help me a bit in the process of becoming a better gamer!!
On August 10 2011 15:25 RaE21 wrote: isn't this just another version of the standard marine banshee tank raven all in popular? I see the only difference is it doesn't incorporate expoing at all while you push, so if in fact it does fail, there really is no way to come back...
On August 10 2011 15:52 wrathchild_78 wrote: I don't care what others say but this is interesting and not all people know about the 1/1/1 all in. In fact, i knew there were some builds but this is the first good written build i read here.
So, thanks for posting this. I am very intrigued to try it.
So far, I have been fixing my TvZ and neglected my other matchups which I suck so hopefully this build might help me a bit in the process of becoming a better gamer!!
I think it would help you become a better all-in-er and win more matches yes. Builds like this take a lot out of the game in my opinion. Where is the decision making? You have one decision to make; kill or contain.
On second thoughts, I don't see the point of this build at all. The standard Protoss response to this should be a 1-gate expo into gateway/immortal (which he can easily crush this build with - assuming he has good micro). The contain should really only be a knee-jerk reaction when your push fails to perhaps buy some time for your own expo to get up (although, good luck with that because you should be behind by a reasonable margin).
Spamming more units at the contain just seems to be playing into the Protoss' hands when he already has an expo up on you.
On August 10 2011 16:07 Crysack wrote: On second thoughts, I don't see the point of this build at all. The standard Protoss response to this should be a 1-gate expo into gateway/immortal (which he can easily crush this build with - assuming he has good micro). The contain should really only be a knee-jerk reaction when your push fails to perhaps buy some time for your own expo to get up (although, good luck with that because you should be behind by a reasonable margin).
Spamming more units at the contain just seems to be playing into the Protoss' hands when he already has an expo up on you.
The 1/1/1 style all-in is pretty much specifically intended to beat a 1 gate expo build, so I don't see how that's the proper response nor 'easy to hold' o_o.
On second thoughts, I don't see the point of this build at all. The standard Protoss response to this should be a 1-gate expo into gateway/immortal (which he can easily crush this build with - assuming he has good micro). The contain should really only be a knee-jerk reaction when your push fails to perhaps buy some time for your own expo to get up (although, good luck with that because you should be behind by a reasonable margin).
Spamming more units at the contain just seems to be playing into the Protoss' hands when he already has an expo up on you.
Pushing out at 9 minutes punishes a 1 gate expo hard.
This is basically the 1-1-1 contain that korean all terrans have started to use against Protoss now. The only difference is that you're bringing SCVs and making 2 hellions... Build is shamelessly ripped off other players??
On August 10 2011 16:07 Crysack wrote: On second thoughts, I don't see the point of this build at all. The standard Protoss response to this should be a 1-gate expo into gateway/immortal (which he can easily crush this build with - assuming he has good micro). The contain should really only be a knee-jerk reaction when your push fails to perhaps buy some time for your own expo to get up (although, good luck with that because you should be behind by a reasonable margin).
Spamming more units at the contain just seems to be playing into the Protoss' hands when he already has an expo up on you.
The 1/1/1 style all-in is pretty much specifically intended to beat a 1 gate expo build, so I don't see how that's the proper response nor 'easy to hold' o_o.
There are also a number of replays of Huk that you may want to dig up from Dreamhack. He faced this build several times over the course of the tournament and he defended it with 1 gate expo every single time.
Soooo... questions: Do you ever stop SCV produciton? If so at what point? Do you leave all 16 SCVs at your contain? If not, how many? If he takes a warp prism of 4 zealots to your main, how do you respond?
Thanks for this guide. I've been offracing Terran lately and wanted to try 1-1-1ing a bit on ladder, but I wasn't too sure of a good build order so I was just winging it and... to say the least, it turned out less than optimal
I'm sorry, but in what way does this force 1-base vs 1-base? I might be going crazy here but, as far as I know, the 1-1-1 all-in has ALWAYS been defendable with a 1-gate expo build. In fact, 1-gate expo is probably the preferable way to deal with this.
lolol what, this is like almost the direct counter to the 1 gate FE, similar skill level the protoss can almost never hold it doing it
On August 10 2011 17:11 spbelky wrote: If he takes a warp prism of 4 zealots to your main, how do you respond?
1. Lift your base. 2. Go fucking kill him.
lol and he just FF's the ramp and techs to colossi
the best was to respond to that is the second he warps in zealots just amove all the scvs and use the next few marines that spawn to kill the warp prisim
I think the correct response to this is pheonix, just 4-5, to lift the 3 tanks and help with banshees, but it require good micro to manage the marines, immortals are not a good solution since the number of marines. But i prefer the thor version of this push, the push is delayed by 2-2,5 min but this push is stronger : 3 Thors 3 banshees 1 Raven and marines
On August 10 2011 17:11 spbelky wrote: If he takes a warp prism of 4 zealots to your main, how do you respond?
1. Lift your base. 2. Go fucking kill him.
lol and he just FF's the ramp and techs to colossi
the best was to respond to that is the second he warps in zealots just amove all the scvs and use the next few marines that spawn to kill the warp prisim
Nah you can still go kill him. Siege tank contain ftw. Protoss will have no units because of the investment in the stupid drop.
On August 10 2011 17:11 spbelky wrote: If he takes a warp prism of 4 zealots to your main, how do you respond?
1. Lift your base. 2. Go fucking kill him.
lol and he just FF's the ramp and techs to colossi
the best was to respond to that is the second he warps in zealots just amove all the scvs and use the next few marines that spawn to kill the warp prisim
Nah you can still go kill him. Siege tank contain ftw. Protoss will have no units because of the investment in the stupid drop.
Don't even have to kill him. Just contain his ramp because there's no way he can hold his natural, and once there with siege tanks, it's impossible to break out.
The key to beating this is +1 armor and mass zealots. Do a 1 or 2 gate FE with 1 gas. Get a zealot and stalker and go poke with it. If you see only marines or a bunker with only marines, assume this is coming. Get 4-5 gates and forge ASAP after your expo is up, chain boost +1 armor, and just make nothing but spam zealots after you have 5 stalkers. The +1 armor is key, it will keep your zealots alive far, far longer against his unupgraded marines. You do not need to get a robo or ever take a second gas. The robo is just a waste of money. Put a cannon in the middle of both mineral lines, with two stalkers next to each. This will save you from cloaked banshees. Sure he can go shoot at random buildings if he gets cloak but your economy is safe, he has a limited supply of cloak, and you have an expansion so you can easily eat this loss. It will also save you from a blueflame hellion drop if he does that instead off his tech build.
If he does the thor variant, the key to beating that is +2 armor. The attack with thors instead of tanks comes much later so you can get out +2 armor. If he's smart, he will have his thors in front of his marines so your zealots attack them first and let the marines get in free damage. This is where +2 armor comes in. If you see Thors, make a council so you can start +2 as soon as +1 finishes, and chain boost it as well. This build is gas heavy so he's unlikely to have any upgrades, and if he does it will be the thors that are upgraded. 0/0 marines don't do anything to +2 armor zealots so they'll easily be able to chop down all the thors and then finish off at least most of the marines. If he waits until he has like 4 thors to attack you could probably finish Charge research and really crush him.
Remember, the key is just lots and lots of zealots. Just keep pumping them out as fast as you can while making probes and pylons. Don't supply cap. You don't ever need more than 1 gas. It might seem like it's impossible to get +2 armor on 1 gas but it really isn't, you get 110 gas/minute from a single geyser and you're only spending a total 250 gas on combat units, you will have the 425 extra gas needed in time for +1, council, and +2. 5 stalkers is enough. If you kill all his stuff and he still has banshees alive you can just warp in 5 stalkers at home and be fine, you have the two cannons protecting your economy. You don't need to make a robo unless you see him actually cloak his banshees, and making one reactively to this is perfectly fine. The only way you'll be in trouble is if he actually went 2 port banshee, but this is pretty rare.
You obviously put some time into this so I guess it's only fair that I put some time to pick your guide apart.
Firstly, this isn't the strongest 111 allin possible. The (well-known) 4tanks 3 banshess no raven or hellions or cloak or any other nonsense (a la boxer v incontrol @mlg anaheim) is much stronger than this. This gets to my base - as you said at around 9:40 and I'm pretty sure that with some stalker harassment I could delay you to about 10:00. The allin I'm describing is at my base at 9:00 or so.
Secondly, 1gate fe (robo before or after the nexus) IS the correct response to this allin. See QTIP's or L3g3nd's guides to stopping it. Many other pro protosses counter this allin with expand.
Thirdly, the counters to this build you mention are somewhat laughable. Thermal lance colossi? Not a chance if the build - even as imperfect as yours - is executed well. You'll have 1 colossus with second on the way when this push hits and it's nowhere near enough, so the terran will just 1a you. Charge doesn't finish in time either.
I also find it laughable that you describe your build as "unstoppable", "strongest", "insane", etc. In addition to these statements being simply untrue, you'd expect the replays to show you win each time against the direct counter - namely mass zealot/1-2 sentries/some stalkers to kill banshees/immortals - but in none of your replays did the protoss go for the BO that wins against this.
On August 10 2011 13:18 Jumbled wrote: Slapping your name in the title when you're just describing one version of a well-known and widely-used build is pretty poor form.
I'm also not too clear on what you feel is unique about your build, other than that you include a couple of unupgraded hellions and advocate researching building armour(?).
This. The 1-1-1 all-in has a ton of variants, this is just one of them, but not nearly as innovative or new as having its own thread would lead one to believe asssuming they watch any tournaments. I mean, the Protoss either breaks it or he doesn't, if he's letting you build CC's and Ebays at his natural while he sits on one base while not doing anything - he knows he lost. this is like a guide on how to drag out a victory when a Protoss thinks he can win by letting a ridiculous contain happen. tl;dr of it is build stuff to contain him. That said I dislike getting the Helions since that means you will have slower tank production and Marines are most certainly a better investment.
On August 10 2011 20:57 Sated wrote: This is all good advice. You forget to mention that if you're doing this, you need sentries to help your zealots kill marines efficiently otherwise the marines can kite them.
You don't need sentries. He technically can kite with his marines, but without stim or shells, you can just disengage and he can't do anything. He can't chase you down. If he tries kiting, just kill his tanks and disengage. If he actually comes to your base you can handle the marines by just having your zealots in front and you stalkers chasing after shooting the marines as they try to kite.
I would add a bunker in your buildorder... only marines in early. Every single protossplayer will just poke with a zealot/stalker or multiple stalker at your front, and if he see no bunker and only marines he will just overroll you...
btw. whats the name of the song in your replay in which you play on shakuras against that npc?
this happens to me in TvP always and due siege tank+raven high ground vision forcefields are useless TT So I got 5 koloss and could clear it, but he took expo after that and had the same army again, no way for P to def.
On August 10 2011 22:43 Amoment wrote: this happens to me in TvP always and due siege tank+raven high ground vision forcefields are useless TT So I got 5 koloss and could clear it, but he took expo after that and had the same army again, no way for P to def.
Hm, if you have a worker/stalker at your opponents choke, which you need if he 1 base techs, you see it coming. Get mass Stalkers and kite him over the map, which delays a lot for terran. Due to stalkerspeed which is higher then all units terran has in his mix you will only loose some shieldpoints.
If he nearly reached your natural just pull workers and catch him unsieged.
Im terran, but i would try this. I sometimes play this BO and thats the nightmare for me. Fucking kiting stalker which lower my units while he only loose shieldspoints, and getting attacked offguard mostly means gg. If he drop down pdd pull back into your natural, so he wont have one in the next fight.
2 base contain can be just as strong, like MVP showed against MC, but requires a lot more thinking and more solid execution to work. If you sit on 1 base your opponent is 100% going to be preparing for this sort of contain whether he scouts your base or not, assuming he's any good. Guess I'll try it anyway, thanks for posting
Thank you for this guide. I really appreciate the effort on what to do when you push out and the advice on getting a contain. However, I do not think that your build is optimal for getting the composition you talk about. Here is the fastest way I know of to obtain your desired composition (20 marines, 3 hellions, 2 tanks, siege tech, raven (before banshees), 2 banshees):
This gives you 23 scvs, 20 marines, 3 hellions, 2 tanks, siege tech, raven, and 2 banshees at about 8:29, which seems significantly faster than your build. (The main differences are that it cuts scvs, goes gas first, and gets 2 rax instead of a reactor)
edit: That being said, I'm not convinced that the build I posted is optimal either; it's just a faster way to get the exact composition you discussed. With riskier play and fewer marines I think you can push out closer to the 8 minute mark, which could be very very brutal.
I enjoyed the guide but I'm also worried about being hit with 4-gate just before you leave your base. I suppose that's what the scouting hellion is for - to check the dark corners for any proxy pylons.
I also notice that in the video, you didn't wall in. I suppose for a map with a ramp, you won't need to(?) but what about the maps where there's no ramp?
Guides like this make we want to proxy 2-gate every PvT. I feel like P can only really hold this if he's a better player than T, but I suppose that's the idea behind most one-base all-ins.
Anyway, thanks for writing it up (and thereby stimulating a bunch of discussion on how to beat it.)
Well, I'm a big fan of StimmedProbe for his work on Million Man Marine, so I thought I would take some time to address the haters who are hating, as well as people offering legitimate criticisms. I hope to help spark an interesting and fruitful discussion of this build.
On August 10 2011 17:11 spbelky wrote: If he takes a warp prism of 4 zealots to your main, how do you respond?
1. Lift your base. 2. Go fucking kill him.
lol and he just FF's the ramp and techs to colossi
the best was to respond to that is the second he warps in zealots just amove all the scvs and use the next few marines that spawn to kill the warp prisim
Nah you can still go kill him. Siege tank contain ftw. Protoss will have no units because of the investment in the stupid drop.
Warp prisming 4 zealots to the main is actually a smart move by the protoss player. I think that drop play is a good, if rarely used, answer to a siege tank contain in TvP. Protoss isn't gonna "just FF the ramp and tech to colossi, but tanks are definitely much better at defending than attacking, and without the benefits of your statics, and walking up the ramp against a guy who may have sentries makes it a very dangerous proposition to actually kill him.
This is the primary distinction between, say, a 4 zealot drop and a base trade is that in the case of a 4 zealot drop, he hasn't committed any GAS to attacking you, just some robo time and some minerals/food. If he ferries his entire army to the lowground in secret and tries to base trade, you'll win because you're terran and terran is good at base trades-- but if he tries to drop you, even with a fairly small number of zealots, and conserves his gas for sentries and immortals at home, he MIGHT be able to hold a doom push from your contain, and slow down mining enough or force enough at-home units that he could make something happen with a bust.
If he has a full energy sentry at home, or even 2 or 3, he can try to forcefield you out, but then it becomes the most dangerous game, where the 10.7 effective range of the forcefield is pitted up against the 13 range of the Siege tank.
Really, though, when we ask "what does Protoss do in this situation, when he is contained and up against many bunkers and tanks?", we are asking the wrong question. If you bear with me for a moment, I will offer a quotation from economist Brad Delong:
Professor Delong wrote: My great uncle Phil from Marblehead Massachusetts used to talk about a question on a sailing safety examination he once took: "What should you do if you are caught on a lee shore in a hurricane?" The correct answer was: "You never get caught on a lee shore in a hurricane!" The answer to the question of what you should do when conventional monetary policy is tapped out and you are at the zero interest rate nominal bound is that you should never get in such a situation in the first place.
Applied to this situation, asking what to do when a bunker-tank contain goes up in your natural is the wrong question; the correct question is "what can I do to prevent this from happening?" and the answer is basically to attack before the bunkers get up or the tanks are sieged or whatever defense you can muster when doing a safe FE. If you have to pull 20ish probes or something, do what you have to-- the terran player has pulled 15 scvs, and you have an extra nexus, so it might not be a bad idea to bring some workers to the fight.
On August 10 2011 19:41 gejfsyd wrote: Why do you say its unstoppable? Why do you assume protoss will stay on 1 base? Why do you call it "StimmedProbe's 1-1-1"? WHY???
But its still a well written guide for an already existing build that many people didnt know before.
1) He says it's unstoppable because if it gets up, it's unbelievably difficult to break. 2) He doesn't; he actually assumes that protoss fast expands. But regardless of the protoss play, this sort of contain is brutal and will usually take down the nexus. 3) Because there are a lot of 1-1-1s out there, and he needs to specify it. This is a pretty specific unit composition, and push. There's even a lot of 1-1-1 tank contains out there, and this si a specific one among them.
On August 10 2011 19:27 Xequecal wrote: The key to beating this is +1 armor and mass zealots. Do a 1 or 2 gate FE with 1 gas. Get a zealot and stalker and go poke with it. If you see only marines or a bunker with only marines, assume this is coming. Get 4-5 gates and forge ASAP after your expo is up, chain boost +1 armor, and just make nothing but spam zealots after you have 5 stalkers. The +1 armor is key, it will keep your zealots alive far, far longer against his unupgraded marines. You do not need to get a robo or ever take a second gas. The robo is just a waste of money. Put a cannon in the middle of both mineral lines, with two stalkers next to each. This will save you from cloaked banshees. Sure he can go shoot at random buildings if he gets cloak but your economy is safe, he has a limited supply of cloak, and you have an expansion so you can easily eat this loss. It will also save you from a blueflame hellion drop if he does that instead off his tech build.
If he does the thor variant, the key to beating that is +2 armor. The attack with thors instead of tanks comes much later so you can get out +2 armor. If he's smart, he will have his thors in front of his marines so your zealots attack them first and let the marines get in free damage. This is where +2 armor comes in. If you see Thors, make a council so you can start +2 as soon as +1 finishes, and chain boost it as well. This build is gas heavy so he's unlikely to have any upgrades, and if he does it will be the thors that are upgraded. 0/0 marines don't do anything to +2 armor zealots so they'll easily be able to chop down all the thors and then finish off at least most of the marines. If he waits until he has like 4 thors to attack you could probably finish Charge research and really crush him.
Remember, the key is just lots and lots of zealots. Just keep pumping them out as fast as you can while making probes and pylons. Don't supply cap. You don't ever need more than 1 gas. It might seem like it's impossible to get +2 armor on 1 gas but it really isn't, you get 110 gas/minute from a single geyser and you're only spending a total 250 gas on combat units, you will have the 425 extra gas needed in time for +1, council, and +2. 5 stalkers is enough. If you kill all his stuff and he still has banshees alive you can just warp in 5 stalkers at home and be fine, you have the two cannons protecting your economy. You don't need to make a robo unless you see him actually cloak his banshees, and making one reactively to this is perfectly fine. The only way you'll be in trouble is if he actually went 2 port banshee, but this is pretty rare.
This is all good advice. You forget to mention that if you're doing this, you need sentries to help your zealots kill marines efficiently otherwise the marines can kite them.
Again, I think the key to stopping this is to just not let the contain get up. If you pull probes or make a lot of units and engage when/where the dude has no bunkers, you'll do pretty well-- or at least better than you will once he was a heroic wall of buildings and bunkers in front of repairscvs to eat your attacks.
On August 10 2011 21:03 greggy wrote: You obviously put some time into this so I guess it's only fair that I put some time to pick your guide apart.
Firstly, this isn't the strongest 111 allin possible. The (well-known) 4tanks 3 banshess no raven or hellions or cloak or any other nonsense (a la boxer v incontrol @mlg anaheim) is much stronger than this. This gets to my base - as you said at around 9:40 and I'm pretty sure that with some stalker harassment I could delay you to about 10:00. The allin I'm describing is at my base at 9:00 or so.
Secondly, 1gate fe (robo before or after the nexus) IS the correct response to this allin. See QTIP's or L3g3nd's guides to stopping it. Many other pro protosses counter this allin with expand.
Thirdly, the counters to this build you mention are somewhat laughable. Thermal lance colossi? Not a chance if the build - even as imperfect as yours - is executed well. You'll have 1 colossus with second on the way when this push hits and it's nowhere near enough, so the terran will just 1a you. Charge doesn't finish in time either.
I also find it laughable that you describe your build as "unstoppable", "strongest", "insane", etc. In addition to these statements being simply untrue, you'd expect the replays to show you win each time against the direct counter - namely mass zealot/1-2 sentries/some stalkers to kill banshees/immortals - but in none of your replays did the protoss go for the BO that wins against this.
When he says this is the strongest all-in possible, he's not saying it has the most units-- it just has the most tanks and the best amount of scvs to set up statics and walls.
A big thing to note is that unlike MOST marine tank banshee allins, this one pulls 15 scvs. That's actually really huge, and the fact that they can repair and screw up the AI, as well as build statics, meshes really well with the siege tanks and marines.
There was a time when 2 gate robo expand into super fast colossus rush was totally a thing. There was a time when 1 base colossus was also totally a thing. Unupgraded marines are amazingly bad against even non-lance colossi, since there's no stim, no combat shields, and no marauders.
The request for replays against certain BOs is reasonable-- but ALSO NOTE that this build specifically denies scouting, using raven and marines, making it difficult for protoss to find a BO win. It's hard to go for a mass immortal chargelot build when you're blind.
On August 10 2011 13:18 Jumbled wrote: Slapping your name in the title when you're just describing one version of a well-known and widely-used build is pretty poor form.
I'm also not too clear on what you feel is unique about your build, other than that you include a couple of unupgraded hellions and advocate researching building armour(?).
This. The 1-1-1 all-in has a ton of variants, this is just one of them, but not nearly as innovative or new as having its own thread would lead one to believe asssuming they watch any tournaments. I mean, the Protoss either breaks it or he doesn't, if he's letting you build CC's and Ebays at his natural while he sits on one base while not doing anything - he knows he lost. this is like a guide on how to drag out a victory when a Protoss thinks he can win by letting a ridiculous contain happen. tl;dr of it is build stuff to contain him. That said I dislike getting the Helions since that means you will have slower tank production and Marines are most certainly a better investment.
I think that this build order is pretty specific and doesn't have an entry in liquipedia or an existing thread on TL. Warden's TvP, for example, is "go 1-1-1 and make every unit" which doesn't sound that innovative either until you give it a try.
Stimmedprobe also wrote the Million Man Marine guide, which is hilarious and excellent. The 1-1-1 all in has a tone of varients, and this is just one of them, but it's not just a push-- it's a contain. There are a lot oftank-based1-1-1 style contain plays, but the idea of pulling this many scvs and making these buildings is pretty smart. The guide includes information that you can't find easily on TL, which is, how to muscle your way to the protoss front and spam some buildings to really get the contain going-- and how the 1-base play favors terran.
It's not an issue of Protoss "breaking" this contain. Once you've arrived at the protoss base, he has about 30 seconds before you're unbreakable, and he has to attack then. Once you have a bunch of bunkers and wall pieces laying around, it becomes impossible for the short-ranged protoss units to fight tanks effectively.
For those of you wanting to have fun with the 2 base version, this is the (rough) bo MVP used vs MC. I've been having quite a bit of fun with it on maps that only have 1 exit out of the natural.
10 depot 12 rax 15 oc 15 marine (1) 16 CC 17 depot (and throughout) 18 marine (and throughout) 20 refinery x2 22 bunker @ nat 25 oc 26 fact 26 reactor on rax 29 refinery @ nat 34 techlab @ fact (tanks + siege when finished, and tanks throughout) 34 starport 45 lab @ port (banshee when finished, followed by raven, followed by banshee) 53 rax x3 (add lab x2 and reactor x1 when done, marines from all of them)
hit about a 100 food, move out (with 5ish SCV's) and contain. From thereon out, adapt your contain to what your opponent has. Generally, try and transition into infantry upgrades, add vikings if there's colossi, ghosts aren't a neccesity against storm due to bunkers and the ineffectiveness of 2 base templar play in the first place, but they're awesome to have incase of archons.
Sorry for slightly hijacking the thread, but it can't hurt to have another option out there, plus it's similar in a lot of ways as many have pointed out.
On August 10 2011 17:11 spbelky wrote: If he takes a warp prism of 4 zealots to your main, how do you respond?
1. Lift your base. 2. Go fucking kill him.
lol and he just FF's the ramp and techs to colossi
the best was to respond to that is the second he warps in zealots just amove all the scvs and use the next few marines that spawn to kill the warp prisim
There are alot of variations of powerful 2base timing pushes on TvP I use one myself all the time.
I definitely feel like in masters alot of toss have got this one figured out. Obviosuly once the contain is up they are screwed, and this is a great description of a good FAST push that gets you there. When I do this strategy, I try to do it with just 2 tanks and no starport asap. I find most protoss try to go for some robo tech units to defend it. I definitely think the guy talking about the mass zealot armor ups FE has the best counter figured out, but that would definitely not put you in a great spot for my 2base timing push.
On August 10 2011 21:03 greggy wrote: You obviously put some time into this so I guess it's only fair that I put some time to pick your guide apart.
Firstly, this isn't the strongest 111 allin possible. The (well-known) 4tanks 3 banshess no raven or hellions or cloak or any other nonsense (a la boxer v incontrol @mlg anaheim) is much stronger than this. This gets to my base - as you said at around 9:40 and I'm pretty sure that with some stalker harassment I could delay you to about 10:00. The allin I'm describing is at my base at 9:00 or so.
Secondly, 1gate fe (robo before or after the nexus) IS the correct response to this allin. See QTIP's or L3g3nd's guides to stopping it. Many other pro protosses counter this allin with expand.
Thirdly, the counters to this build you mention are somewhat laughable. Thermal lance colossi? Not a chance if the build - even as imperfect as yours - is executed well. You'll have 1 colossus with second on the way when this push hits and it's nowhere near enough, so the terran will just 1a you. Charge doesn't finish in time either.
I also find it laughable that you describe your build as "unstoppable", "strongest", "insane", etc. In addition to these statements being simply untrue, you'd expect the replays to show you win each time against the direct counter - namely mass zealot/1-2 sentries/some stalkers to kill banshees/immortals - but in none of your replays did the protoss go for the BO that wins against this.
When he says this is the strongest all-in possible, he's not saying it has the most units-- it just has the most tanks and the best amount of scvs to set up statics and walls.
A big thing to note is that unlike MOST marine tank banshee allins, this one pulls 15 scvs. That's actually really huge, and the fact that they can repair and screw up the AI, as well as build statics, meshes really well with the siege tanks and marines.
There was a time when 2 gate robo expand into super fast colossus rush was totally a thing. There was a time when 1 base colossus was also totally a thing. Unupgraded marines are amazingly bad against even non-lance colossi, since there's no stim, no combat shields, and no marauders.
The request for replays against certain BOs is reasonable-- but ALSO NOTE that this build specifically denies scouting, using raven and marines, making it difficult for protoss to find a BO win. It's hard to go for a mass immortal chargelot build when you're blind.
None of your points are actually valid I'm afraid. This isn't the strongest allin possible not because it has most tanks (and the reason it might have most tanks, which I'm not even particularly sure about, is because it is delayed by up to a minute, as I mentioned previously), but because a) it hits later; b) raven and particularly hellions just aren't all that useful. They're both 'ok', as in, yeah, hellion does extra to zealots and raven sorta nullifies stalkers (and provides detection vs obs), but they use up valuable factory/starport time which could be used to make tanks and banshees. Marines are really rather good anyway so you might as well make them instead of hellions.
Pretty much every 111 allin pulls some amount of scvs. Usually it's between 10 and all, I've seen less but I feel T needs quite a few to do fast repairs.
Colossi have less range than tanks and take bonus damage from them. Unless you get caught with your pants down, colossus shouldn't do that much damage. You have banshees to spot high ground.
There isn't that much scouting that needs to be done against this build. If I see bunker with marines when I poke with repeatedly probe/first stalker (esp if I scouted gas before), I know something's up. Yes, raven might deny obs, but this already tells me this isn't, for example, thor allin. Moreover, pretty much every variation of 111 does banshee harassment. It's not hard to put 2+2 and deduce that since there's no expo, he's allining.
Any variation of 111 is damn hard to hold as P, make no mistake. But if you're making a guide about it, you might as well make the guide to be about the best one.
I am working on a more macro style version of this build (1-1-FE-1 instead of 1-1-1) that relies on also getting stim and a few marauders, and pushing at around the 12 minute mark while getting a third base. I am having huge success with it. Anyone interested in learning more about it ?
On August 11 2011 03:58 Blazinghand wrote: It's not an issue of Protoss "breaking" this contain. Once you've arrived at the protoss base, he has about 30 seconds before you're unbreakable, and he has to attack then. Once you have a bunch of bunkers and wall pieces laying around, it becomes impossible for the short-ranged protoss units to fight tanks effectively.
This was kind of my point, every 1-1-1 all-in pulls SCVs and has the potential to turn into a contain (which happens a ton in the GSL) and when you're building two/three bunkers, he's either going to break you then or he isn't - most likely.
The tank in the image has got the cannon of a PF. That's probably another way to win TvP.
Jokes aside, this variation of the 1/1/1's interesting, but I'm still going to stick with the 2base version of it. If you 1base, protoss is instantly going to know that an allin's on its way, with how the current metagame is going. If I'm going to allin, I prefer make it even a little bit unexpected rather than completely prepared for. Great writeup though!
Good guide, haters shush - his build is specific, it's a slightly different style from other 1-1-1's.
Questions:
1) How do you deal with a hard 4-gate? I don't see how 5 marines and maybe a bunker can keep you alive. I mean you may see the initial force move out with the hellion, but you have less than the 45 seconds required to get bunkers up to respond. Normally you survive 4-gates by using marauders to keep you alive long enough for bunkers to get up...
2) What do you do if he uses early gateway aggression ie pokes your ramp with stalker at 4 mins, picks off marines and micros, then when you push, stalker kites you ALL THE WAY back to his natural? That shit is what put me back onto bio in the first place.
On August 10 2011 21:03 greggy wrote: You obviously put some time into this so I guess it's only fair that I put some time to pick your guide apart.
Firstly, this isn't the strongest 111 allin possible. The (well-known) 4tanks 3 banshess no raven or hellions or cloak or any other nonsense (a la boxer v incontrol @mlg anaheim) is much stronger than this. This gets to my base - as you said at around 9:40 and I'm pretty sure that with some stalker harassment I could delay you to about 10:00. The allin I'm describing is at my base at 9:00 or so.
Secondly, 1gate fe (robo before or after the nexus) IS the correct response to this allin. See QTIP's or L3g3nd's guides to stopping it. Many other pro protosses counter this allin with expand.
Thirdly, the counters to this build you mention are somewhat laughable. Thermal lance colossi? Not a chance if the build - even as imperfect as yours - is executed well. You'll have 1 colossus with second on the way when this push hits and it's nowhere near enough, so the terran will just 1a you. Charge doesn't finish in time either.
I also find it laughable that you describe your build as "unstoppable", "strongest", "insane", etc. In addition to these statements being simply untrue, you'd expect the replays to show you win each time against the direct counter - namely mass zealot/1-2 sentries/some stalkers to kill banshees/immortals - but in none of your replays did the protoss go for the BO that wins against this.
High Masters here and yeah I agree. This is mostly standard composition (minus the hellions which IMO makes your push weaker). I have been countering reliably with FE and zealot heavy army. Unstoppable? More like a free win.
And all those who don't understand the matchup, please don't post just to say the guide is "well written". I know you like pretty pictures and formatting but you are not adding anything useful.
Lol, pretty much. Not sure about the specifics of the old "tasteless" build, if they got the reactor back then or not etc...
But I might just add a disadvantage of this build. If you get a raven instead of banshee you will have aprox 1 less banshee and 1 less tank, and probably be floating some extra minerals. I suppose you can use these to use an offensive scan for good positioning or get a random backup command or something... It probably won't be that many minerals being floated/not a big deal.
Also the moment the observer sees a raven the protoss knows he doesn't need a second observer, he doesn't need to make more than his initial stalkers (additional should only be warped in after the tank/marine army is dead). I have seen 1/1/1 lose straight up to 1 offensive dt 1 defensive dt without raven though so there's that for a positive, but you already mentioned that. Dt's easily come in time, even with an expand in the time it takes for a 9 minute push to cross the map.
I really like this build, its really refined and specific, but one problem with that is that there is no bunker worked in. A 4-gate would kill this build if you followed the video/food count exactly. Perhaps you could add a bunker into the build, or how to alter the build if you scout a 4-gate coming.
This is a great guide. My only complaint, like most great guides, is slapping your name onto the build like you own it.
The 1 base SCV/Marine/Tank/Raven/Banshee has been around ever since the first season of GSL. The first player I saw use it was PoltPrime, and its a big reason why his TvP winrate is so high. Either his opponents fear it so he outmacros, or they don't prepare sufficiently and he crushes. MVP also used relatively the same build recently in the GSL. I'm sure plenty of foreigners have done similar builds.
I understand that if you haven't seen those games and you came up with this build on your own, you might be mistaken into thinking that your build is unique. But if you're going to write a guide and claim credit for the idea, please do some research before posting. The fact that it has been so successful in the GSL adds to the guides' credibility, and mentioning speciic GSL matches would really help readers understand the different variations.
On August 13 2011 01:13 RoboBob wrote: This is a great guide. My only complaint, like most great guides, is slapping your name onto the build like you own it.
The 1 base SCV/Marine/Tank/Raven/Banshee has been around ever since the first season of GSL. The first player I saw use it was PoltPrime, and its a big reason why his TvP winrate is so high. Either his opponents fear it so he outmacros, or they don't prepare sufficiently and he crushes. MVP also used relatively the same build recently in the GSL. I'm sure plenty of foreigners have done similar builds.
I understand that if you haven't seen those games and you came up with this build on your own, you might be mistaken into thinking that your build is unique. But if you're going to write a guide and claim credit for the idea, please do some research before posting. The fact that it has been so successful in the GSL adds to the guides' credibility, and mentioning speciic GSL matches would really help readers understand the different variations.
I'm fairly sure this isn't a guide to 1-1-1 in general, or the more specific Polt Timing Attack (named after Polt) but rather a variation that gets siege mode and builds statics and walls in/near the protoss natural to make a contain.
Having experimented with this build quite a bit in the last few days, I can definitely state that it is stylistically distinguishable from other 1-1-1 variants.
Specifically: - the relatively late banshee means you don't harass as much with it, but - the early raven to cancel scouting, and just the general emphasis on information denial. - Bringing a high scv count to the push and - skipping cloak, - fast siege mode and - an odd 9 minute timing that comes after most 1-1-1 move outs but well before 2-base 1-1-1 pushes.
I quite enjoy it, it handles a large variety of protoss compositions and isn't answerable by cheese.
When a protoss determines that a 1-1-1 pressure/contain is coming and they choose to FE and go with a zealot heavy army, I prefer to swap the factory to reactor hellions, maybe that is why stimmedprobe incorporates some hellions. Although, i normally would not add hellions unless i had scouted heavy zealot + expand.
On August 11 2011 02:46 eieio wrote: Thank you for this guide. I really appreciate the effort on what to do when you push out and the advice on getting a contain. However, I do not think that your build is optimal for getting the composition you talk about. Here is the fastest way I know of to obtain your desired composition (20 marines, 3 hellions, 2 tanks, siege tech, raven (before banshees), 2 banshees):
This gives you 23 scvs, 20 marines, 3 hellions, 2 tanks, siege tech, raven, and 2 banshees at about 8:29, which seems significantly faster than your build. (The main differences are that it cuts scvs, goes gas first, and gets 2 rax instead of a reactor)
edit: That being said, I'm not convinced that the build I posted is optimal either; it's just a faster way to get the exact composition you discussed. With riskier play and fewer marines I think you can push out closer to the 8 minute mark, which could be very very brutal.
Could you comment on this? Also im worried about the hard 4 gate owning this
Thanks for the excellently well written out guides. Yes this isn't so "new" in terms of the current TvP, but its guides like this that allows most of the Teamliquid population to play better and learn a build easily.
On August 11 2011 02:46 eieio wrote: Thank you for this guide. I really appreciate the effort on what to do when you push out and the advice on getting a contain. However, I do not think that your build is optimal for getting the composition you talk about. Here is the fastest way I know of to obtain your desired composition (20 marines, 3 hellions, 2 tanks, siege tech, raven (before banshees), 2 banshees):
This gives you 23 scvs, 20 marines, 3 hellions, 2 tanks, siege tech, raven, and 2 banshees at about 8:29, which seems significantly faster than your build. (The main differences are that it cuts scvs, goes gas first, and gets 2 rax instead of a reactor)
edit: That being said, I'm not convinced that the build I posted is optimal either; it's just a faster way to get the exact composition you discussed. With riskier play and fewer marines I think you can push out closer to the 8 minute mark, which could be very very brutal.
Could you comment on this? Also im worried about the hard 4 gate owning this
Although faster, I don't think this would be optimal for the 1-1-1 variation stimmedprobe is going for. An important part of the strategy is being able to bring those 12+ scvs, and still having scvs left home mining allowing you to continue constant production. Cutting scvs would either force you to bring a lot less scvs or pretty much halt your reinforcement capabilities.
Also as for raven vs extra banshee, there's definitely pros for both, however I think getting the raven first is slightly better. The first pro is that it blind hard counters any dt play (this has happened twice for me using this build - admittedly if you normally get an extra banshee you could probably just get a raven instead if you scout fast double gas). If the Protoss sees the Raven when they scout with obs (or other) they are probably less likely to build as many stalkers as they might have. This will allow your banshees that you have to dominate even more as they can take out the stalkers and they are free to wreck terror. And I've found that just generally the PDD is much better then having an extra banshee because it soaks up so much damage. Seriously if you keep rallying banshees while you contain, the opponent can literally not beat you for AA if you have 2 PDD's up, and the occasional damage stalkers will take from walking into tank range.
Edit:
@4gate comments, the 4 gate is pretty easy to scout, tbh. If you aren't scouting the 4 gate in time to get up bunkers then you will lose with pretty much any build, i think this is a non factor. I have faced a 4 gate with this build my self and honestly all you need is a couple (or 3 to be safe) bunkers +wall + scvs. By the time the 4 gate hits you should have enough units to fill up the 2 bunkers (or at least mostly fill them - Thank-you 4gate nerf). Usually I will build my 3rd bunker after i've already started my first two, this means if one of them goes down I have another bunker to fall back into. Get seige tank + seige as fast as possible if they try to set up a contain, then just seige up and it will force them to back away, now you proceed to kill them once you've got your raven/couple banshees. Remember you are on one base and only have one small narrow choke to defend so bunkers do very well. This is free win once you hold off the 4 gate (Protoss cannot support 4 gates for extended time for 1), and 2) will probably cut units to get their economy back after the failed 4 gate - unless of course they are expecting you to all-in them, in which case it still doesn't matter because you will roll them ).
This is one of the best Tvp guides I ever read. Very well written to, Nice! I'm only gold but after practicing this build a few times I'm starting to beat platinum and even low diamond protoss. I'm finding this strategy even works vs zerg, or at least the gold/platinum zergs I play vs.
But I have a question, what do I do vs warp prism harass? This protoss dropped 4 zealots in my main as soon as I moved out, and I was forced to retreat and defend. He then did this happened again, etc. I ended up losing the game because he got 2 colosuses out by the time I got to his base.
On August 24 2011 09:12 MMXMoto-X17 wrote: This is one of the best Tvp guides I ever read. Very well written to, Nice! I'm only gold but after practicing this build a few times I'm starting to beat platinum and even low diamond protoss. I'm finding this strategy even works vs zerg, or at least the gold/platinum zergs I play vs.
But I have a question, what do I do vs warp prism harass? This protoss dropped 4 zealots in my main as soon as I moved out, and I was forced to retreat and defend. He then did this happened again, etc. I ended up losing the game because he got 2 colosuses out by the time I got to his base.
thanks
If he drops 4 zealots in your main you just take your army + all your base scvs and go kill him. Lift your CC towards your army, and pump out one last round of units from your rax/fact/starport, then lift those too towards your army. If they invest 600 in 4zealots/warp prism they will have much less stuff at home to deal with your push.
On August 24 2011 02:12 Kevincible wrote: In IEM finals.. I saw Puma getting out a banshee first then a raven against MC.
Could it be because he wants to harass MC's mineral line ASAP？
yes, that allows for harassment, if youre careful u dont lose anything except 50 energy on your raven, and ull still have enough for pdd if u go raven 2nd so the only thing that really means is some harassment + stalker force for 1 auto turret
On August 24 2011 09:12 MMXMoto-X17 wrote: This is one of the best Tvp guides I ever read. Very well written to, Nice! I'm only gold but after practicing this build a few times I'm starting to beat platinum and even low diamond protoss. I'm finding this strategy even works vs zerg, or at least the gold/platinum zergs I play vs.
But I have a question, what do I do vs warp prism harass? This protoss dropped 4 zealots in my main as soon as I moved out, and I was forced to retreat and defend. He then did this happened again, etc. I ended up losing the game because he got 2 colosuses out by the time I got to his base.
thanks
If he drops 4 zealots in your main you just take your army + all your base scvs and go kill him. Lift your CC towards your army, and pump out one last round of units from your rax/fact/starport, then lift those too towards your army. If they invest 600 in 4zealots/warp prism they will have much less stuff at home to deal with your push.
With all respect, this is not valid in masters Stimmed. 4-zeal warp prism - or more likely, hidden-pylon-and-he-just-runs-them-over-to-your-ramp-zeals don't invest enough that a good player that isn't losing too much stuff will let you break in suddenly. He can force a base-swap with very little investment indeed sometimes, leaving you in a very uncomfortable position.
The best example I can think of is a protoss that forced a lift-off with zealot warp ins into my main (he had a probe and observer out on the map when I established contain, did a low-ground pylon warp-in), and had a single voidray that took out my Orbital and barracks on-route! I was forced to try and crack him and ended up pushing into 3 colossi which picked off all my marines. I wasn't dead but neither was I mining - nasty game. I'll try and dig up the replay.
On August 24 2011 09:12 MMXMoto-X17 wrote: This is one of the best Tvp guides I ever read. Very well written to, Nice! I'm only gold but after practicing this build a few times I'm starting to beat platinum and even low diamond protoss. I'm finding this strategy even works vs zerg, or at least the gold/platinum zergs I play vs.
But I have a question, what do I do vs warp prism harass? This protoss dropped 4 zealots in my main as soon as I moved out, and I was forced to retreat and defend. He then did this happened again, etc. I ended up losing the game because he got 2 colosuses out by the time I got to his base.
thanks
If he drops 4 zealots in your main you just take your army + all your base scvs and go kill him. Lift your CC towards your army, and pump out one last round of units from your rax/fact/starport, then lift those too towards your army. If they invest 600 in 4zealots/warp prism they will have much less stuff at home to deal with your push.
With all respect, this is not valid in masters Stimmed. 4-zeal warp prism - or more likely, hidden-pylon-and-he-just-runs-them-over-to-your-ramp-zeals don't invest enough that a good player that isn't losing too much stuff will let you break in suddenly. He can force a base-swap with very little investment indeed sometimes, leaving you in a very uncomfortable position.
The best example I can think of is a protoss that forced a lift-off with zealot warp ins into my main (he had a probe and observer out on the map when I established contain, did a low-ground pylon warp-in), and had a single voidray that took out my Orbital and barracks on-route! I was forced to try and crack him and ended up pushing into 3 colossi which picked off all my marines. I wasn't dead but neither was I mining - nasty game. I'll try and dig up the replay.
Just for reference, I'm in grandmasters =] Anyways at the highest level of play if you waste 600 minerals on an attack that doesn't do much, you will lose. In addition that warp prism eats up robo build time. The first hellion should poke around for these pylons anyways.
I have never had problems with 4 zealot drops with this build. Yes it is extremely annoying to get 4 zealot dropped, but you just simply send all your scvs now instead of just 12-16 of them. It's sorta how in TvZ, if 20+ mutas keep poking your base, you just say 'ok i've had it, and take your whole army and march across the map and force him to come back to defend your push'.
edit: Terran's almost always win base trades btw =]
On August 24 2011 09:12 MMXMoto-X17 wrote: This is one of the best Tvp guides I ever read. Very well written to, Nice! I'm only gold but after practicing this build a few times I'm starting to beat platinum and even low diamond protoss. I'm finding this strategy even works vs zerg, or at least the gold/platinum zergs I play vs.
But I have a question, what do I do vs warp prism harass? This protoss dropped 4 zealots in my main as soon as I moved out, and I was forced to retreat and defend. He then did this happened again, etc. I ended up losing the game because he got 2 colosuses out by the time I got to his base.
thanks
If he drops 4 zealots in your main you just take your army + all your base scvs and go kill him. Lift your CC towards your army, and pump out one last round of units from your rax/fact/starport, then lift those too towards your army. If they invest 600 in 4zealots/warp prism they will have much less stuff at home to deal with your push.
With all respect, this is not valid in masters Stimmed. 4-zeal warp prism - or more likely, hidden-pylon-and-he-just-runs-them-over-to-your-ramp-zeals don't invest enough that a good player that isn't losing too much stuff will let you break in suddenly. He can force a base-swap with very little investment indeed sometimes, leaving you in a very uncomfortable position.
The best example I can think of is a protoss that forced a lift-off with zealot warp ins into my main (he had a probe and observer out on the map when I established contain, did a low-ground pylon warp-in), and had a single voidray that took out my Orbital and barracks on-route! I was forced to try and crack him and ended up pushing into 3 colossi which picked off all my marines. I wasn't dead but neither was I mining - nasty game. I'll try and dig up the replay.
Just for reference, I'm in grandmasters =] Anyways at the highest level of play if you waste 600 minerals on an attack that doesn't do much, you will lose. In addition that warp prism eats up robo build time. The first hellion should poke around for these pylons anyways.
I have never had problems with 4 zealot drops with this build. Yes it is extremely annoying to get 4 zealot dropped, but you just simply send all your scvs now instead of just 12-16 of them. It's sorta how in TvZ, if 20+ mutas keep poking your base, you just say 'ok i've had it, and take your whole army and march across the map and force him to come back to defend your push'.
edit: Terran's almost always win base trades btw =]
I'm sorry if I'm trolling, but could you tell me what server you're grandmasters? All your replays are from SEA, but you have played 5 games total on that account, and I can't find you anywhere else.
I bring this up because I've talked to a few of my practice partners about this build before (as well as your last guide), and they don't feel like it's a legitimate strategy beyond maybe low masters. When you throw around the term "grandmaster" it means you know what you are doing and people should listen. In logical reasoning terminology, it's known as an appeal to authority--that we should believe you because you're a high level player.
However, this isn't a build you've refined in ladder play (and if it is, you haven't posted any of those replays), and I don't see any evidence that you've ever been in GM league on any server. If I'm gravely mistaken then I sincerely do apologize for calling you out, but if indeed you aren't, I hope that you'll stop trying to mislead lower players into working on a build like this that many people have already stated is not very solid at higher level play. (here's a list of the current GM rankings on SEA http://www.playxp.com/sc2/ladder/1v1/sea.php )
And even that's okay, but please don't hype it to be some unbeatable build when it is untested and many good terran players openly disagree and have already left their comments in this thread.
Personally, at my level (diamond) I find the 1-1-1 to really be a coin flip as to whether it's going to work or not, and is highly reliant on proper micro. I see how it works for the pros, especially with a Raven - but even there, I think it's a risk. I think there are other safer less "all-in" methods to punish your opponent.
I'm sure there are a ton of terrans winning a bunch of games on ladder with this at all levels, but I think most of them will eventually fall back on other standard builds as Protoss figures it out, and starts to figure it out.
1.4 will also help greatly with the Guardian Shield against tanks, immortals not doing the pee-pee dance in the back of the army and the scary thought of more people using warp prisms. Or...maybe terrans will include the HSM in the 1-1-1 and Protoss will have an even harder time! lol
All this being said, I think having this build in your back pocket in a tournament situation is amazing. It puts the fear into your opponent, and you can use that to your advantage. I don't believe in cheese, I think every build is good if designed to win, same goes for this one!
On August 24 2011 09:12 MMXMoto-X17 wrote: This is one of the best Tvp guides I ever read. Very well written to, Nice! I'm only gold but after practicing this build a few times I'm starting to beat platinum and even low diamond protoss. I'm finding this strategy even works vs zerg, or at least the gold/platinum zergs I play vs.
But I have a question, what do I do vs warp prism harass? This protoss dropped 4 zealots in my main as soon as I moved out, and I was forced to retreat and defend. He then did this happened again, etc. I ended up losing the game because he got 2 colosuses out by the time I got to his base.
thanks
If he drops 4 zealots in your main you just take your army + all your base scvs and go kill him. Lift your CC towards your army, and pump out one last round of units from your rax/fact/starport, then lift those too towards your army. If they invest 600 in 4zealots/warp prism they will have much less stuff at home to deal with your push.
With all respect, this is not valid in masters Stimmed. 4-zeal warp prism - or more likely, hidden-pylon-and-he-just-runs-them-over-to-your-ramp-zeals don't invest enough that a good player that isn't losing too much stuff will let you break in suddenly. He can force a base-swap with very little investment indeed sometimes, leaving you in a very uncomfortable position.
The best example I can think of is a protoss that forced a lift-off with zealot warp ins into my main (he had a probe and observer out on the map when I established contain, did a low-ground pylon warp-in), and had a single voidray that took out my Orbital and barracks on-route! I was forced to try and crack him and ended up pushing into 3 colossi which picked off all my marines. I wasn't dead but neither was I mining - nasty game. I'll try and dig up the replay.
Just for reference, I'm in grandmasters =] Anyways at the highest level of play if you waste 600 minerals on an attack that doesn't do much, you will lose. In addition that warp prism eats up robo build time. The first hellion should poke around for these pylons anyways.
I have never had problems with 4 zealot drops with this build. Yes it is extremely annoying to get 4 zealot dropped, but you just simply send all your scvs now instead of just 12-16 of them. It's sorta how in TvZ, if 20+ mutas keep poking your base, you just say 'ok i've had it, and take your whole army and march across the map and force him to come back to defend your push'.
edit: Terran's almost always win base trades btw =]
I'm sorry if I'm trolling, but could you tell me what server you're grandmasters? All your replays are from SEA, but you have played 5 games total on that account, and I can't find you anywhere else.
I bring this up because I've talked to a few of my practice partners about this build before (as well as your last guide), and they don't feel like it's a legitimate strategy beyond maybe low masters. When you throw around the term "grandmaster" it means you know what you are doing and people should listen. In logical reasoning terminology, it's known as an appeal to authority--that we should believe you because you're a high level player.
However, this isn't a build you've refined in ladder play (and if it is, you haven't posted any of those replays), and I don't see any evidence that you've ever been in GM league on any server. If I'm gravely mistaken then I sincerely do apologize for calling you out, but if indeed you aren't, I hope that you'll stop trying to mislead lower players into working on a build like this that many people have already stated is not very solid at higher level play. (here's a list of the current GM rankings on SEA http://www.playxp.com/sc2/ladder/1v1/sea.php )
And even that's okay, but please don't hype it to be some unbeatable build when it is untested and many good terran players openly disagree and have already left their comments in this thread.
I recently got sponsored so my new name is CGFatal. Just got it recently so I haven't played too many games on there, but it is in masters. I have a smurf account which is in GM on SEA, I get recognized with my StimmedProbe on SEA too easily and ppl stalk me lol... Anyways since I don't wanna tell everyone the smurf name here is some proof for you:
1.) Recently won an HK tournament and I played a guy named inFiRoz 12 times in the tournament and my overall record vs him was 7:5. He is a rank 44 grandmaster. http://www.sc2ranks.com/sea/19519/inFiRoz Below is a highlight video I made of our winners bracket finals.
2.) Season 2 promotion picture, the guy I beat in that picture (YoonYJ) was at the time ranked #4 in SEA, currently ranked #39. http://i.imgur.com/6jqhi.jpg
3.) Season 2 sc2ranks.com SEA server grandmaster stats sorted by winrate. 75%, behind moonglade who had 82%. My MMR had me constantly matched against the top 50 players in the region. http://i.imgur.com/WLS63.jpg
Hopefully that is enough to prove that I know what I'm talking about. Anyways about build doubts, I have done the build over 35 times, and crushed face with it every time. It was so effective it got boring after awhile to be really honest. Most of the replays were just me microing a bit and overpowering my opponent, or setting up an insane contain which lead to a victory a few minutes later. If the terran knows how to abuse zealot AI with SCVs, you are really really screwed trust me.... esp with a crisp build order like mine... the only times I have lost with this were when I skipped a bunker and got 4gated (greedy).
On September 16 2011 11:43 DjRetro wrote: This build looks awesome however like many others have said i think it's very risky if your opponent goes 4gate or any other stalker agression.
How do you deal against 4gate? i thank you a lot for sharing
Very funny replays as well ^^
I found this (and the million man march) build really useful as terran, and i have used it quite a bit (Thanks StimmedProbe!) on the ladder too, its almost my main TvP build :D (Mid-High diamond) I like to start with a wall off, (2 supply, 1 rax standard wall off) and then lift the rax away and put a bunker there really helps to defend a 4gate, also when they send in the initial Zealot and Stalker+probe, you can run your marines in to snipe the probe (you have quite a number anyways :D), and the helion keeps map awareness too. Once you have siege mode, protoss can't touch you w/o either sacrificing their whole army and loose, or they have to expand and then loose later anways because you have such a large army. :D. When i feel pressured, i just add a bit more barracks and that usually helps defending 3 gate voidray warp ins :D
There have been MAJOR balance and metagame changes since this thread was last active.
Many of these would appear to directly affect the viablility of a play like this all-in - especially improved warp prisms, immortal range and guardian shield stacking, along with generally increased immortal usage.
However, from what I can see, the build seems to still work - albeit less aggresively. You can't push into an over-prepared protoss natural anymore or immortals WILL shut you down hard, but the contain aspect still works great.
1) Does anyone else think this specific style (raven-banshee-banshee starport play + siege contain with all-in scvs and structures) can cope with today's improved metagame - esp w/ fast prism counter attacks? The OP's suggestion of "LOL just lift to their natural" just doesn't cut it anymore.
2) Could there be a viable divergance point into macro in this build (either more 1-1-1 or modern mech play) - you 1 base up to the push, and if toss is overprepared, you banshee harass while setting up a contain back at his natural third line and take your own bases?
On January 29 2012 12:59 DaemonX wrote: Good reason to bump:
There have been MAJOR balance and metagame changes since this thread was last active.
Many of these would appear to directly affect the viablility of a play like this all-in - especially improved warp prisms, immortal range and guardian shield stacking, along with generally increased immortal usage.
However, from what I can see, the build seems to still work - albeit less aggresively. You can't push into an over-prepared protoss natural anymore or immortals WILL shut you down hard, but the contain aspect still works great.
1) Does anyone else think this specific style (raven-banshee-banshee starport play + siege contain with all-in scvs and structures) can cope with today's improved metagame - esp w/ fast prism counter attacks? The OP's suggestion of "LOL just lift to their natural" just doesn't cut it anymore.
2) Could there be a viable divergance point into macro in this build (either more 1-1-1 or modern mech play) - you 1 base up to the push, and if toss is overprepared, you banshee harass while setting up a contain back at his natural third line and take your own bases?
This style does still work, I've been playing around with a 1/1/1 expand into contain with a high marine/tank count while setting up sensor towers/turrets to deny all warp prism play. I use cloak banshees and a mobile force to deny any proxy expansions and get heavy upgrades for my marines/tanks. It works very well on maps that have a choke at the natural. 1/1/1 in general is still very powerful, it comes down to whoever has better micro and decision making skills.
Its good to have this build in ur kitty as terran, however a Protoss who FE's into 5gate robo and cuts probes at 38 will crush you every single time unless he slips on macro. This build has no harrasment therefore a good toss will always have what he needs to beat you.
What Im saying is a good toss won't lose if he scouts this and prepares which is how it should be. No more "WTF I knew it was coming and I still lost" from toss I'm afraid.
However if you manage to "trick" ur oponent into thinking you are going 2rax of FE then this build will work alot better, but if you wanna be that kind of player then thats up to you.
On August 24 2011 09:12 MMXMoto-X17 wrote: This is one of the best Tvp guides I ever read. Very well written to, Nice! I'm only gold but after practicing this build a few times I'm starting to beat platinum and even low diamond protoss. I'm finding this strategy even works vs zerg, or at least the gold/platinum zergs I play vs.
But I have a question, what do I do vs warp prism harass? This protoss dropped 4 zealots in my main as soon as I moved out, and I was forced to retreat and defend. He then did this happened again, etc. I ended up losing the game because he got 2 colosuses out by the time I got to his base.
thanks
If he drops 4 zealots in your main you just take your army + all your base scvs and go kill him. Lift your CC towards your army, and pump out one last round of units from your rax/fact/starport, then lift those too towards your army. If they invest 600 in 4zealots/warp prism they will have much less stuff at home to deal with your push.
With all respect, this is not valid in masters Stimmed. 4-zeal warp prism - or more likely, hidden-pylon-and-he-just-runs-them-over-to-your-ramp-zeals don't invest enough that a good player that isn't losing too much stuff will let you break in suddenly. He can force a base-swap with very little investment indeed sometimes, leaving you in a very uncomfortable position.
The best example I can think of is a protoss that forced a lift-off with zealot warp ins into my main (he had a probe and observer out on the map when I established contain, did a low-ground pylon warp-in), and had a single voidray that took out my Orbital and barracks on-route! I was forced to try and crack him and ended up pushing into 3 colossi which picked off all my marines. I wasn't dead but neither was I mining - nasty game. I'll try and dig up the replay.
Just for reference, I'm in grandmasters =] Anyways at the highest level of play if you waste 600 minerals on an attack that doesn't do much, you will lose. In addition that warp prism eats up robo build time. The first hellion should poke around for these pylons anyways.
I have never had problems with 4 zealot drops with this build. Yes it is extremely annoying to get 4 zealot dropped, but you just simply send all your scvs now instead of just 12-16 of them. It's sorta how in TvZ, if 20+ mutas keep poking your base, you just say 'ok i've had it, and take your whole army and march across the map and force him to come back to defend your push'.
edit: Terran's almost always win base trades btw =]
I'm sorry if I'm trolling, but could you tell me what server you're grandmasters? All your replays are from SEA, but you have played 5 games total on that account, and I can't find you anywhere else.
I bring this up because I've talked to a few of my practice partners about this build before (as well as your last guide), and they don't feel like it's a legitimate strategy beyond maybe low masters. When you throw around the term "grandmaster" it means you know what you are doing and people should listen. In logical reasoning terminology, it's known as an appeal to authority--that we should believe you because you're a high level player.
However, this isn't a build you've refined in ladder play (and if it is, you haven't posted any of those replays), and I don't see any evidence that you've ever been in GM league on any server. If I'm gravely mistaken then I sincerely do apologize for calling you out, but if indeed you aren't, I hope that you'll stop trying to mislead lower players into working on a build like this that many people have already stated is not very solid at higher level play. (here's a list of the current GM rankings on SEA http://www.playxp.com/sc2/ladder/1v1/sea.php )
And even that's okay, but please don't hype it to be some unbeatable build when it is untested and many good terran players openly disagree and have already left their comments in this thread.
I recently got sponsored so my new name is CGFatal. Just got it recently so I haven't played too many games on there, but it is in masters. I have a smurf account which is in GM on SEA, I get recognized with my StimmedProbe on SEA too easily and ppl stalk me lol... Anyways since I don't wanna tell everyone the smurf name here is some proof for you:
1.) Recently won an HK tournament and I played a guy named inFiRoz 12 times in the tournament and my overall record vs him was 7:5. He is a rank 44 grandmaster. http://www.sc2ranks.com/sea/19519/inFiRoz Below is a highlight video I made of our winners bracket finals.
2.) Season 2 promotion picture, the guy I beat in that picture (YoonYJ) was at the time ranked #4 in SEA, currently ranked #39. http://i.imgur.com/6jqhi.jpg
3.) Season 2 sc2ranks.com SEA server grandmaster stats sorted by winrate. 75%, behind moonglade who had 82%. My MMR had me constantly matched against the top 50 players in the region. http://i.imgur.com/WLS63.jpg
Hopefully that is enough to prove that I know what I'm talking about. Anyways about build doubts, I have done the build over 35 times, and crushed face with it every time. It was so effective it got boring after awhile to be really honest. Most of the replays were just me microing a bit and overpowering my opponent, or setting up an insane contain which lead to a victory a few minutes later. If the terran knows how to abuse zealot AI with SCVs, you are really really screwed trust me.... esp with a crisp build order like mine... the only times I have lost with this were when I skipped a bunker and got 4gated (greedy).
111 and marine still SCV works at GM even after you play the guy several times, ima go play terran!!!
On August 24 2011 09:12 MMXMoto-X17 wrote: This is one of the best Tvp guides I ever read. Very well written to, Nice! I'm only gold but after practicing this build a few times I'm starting to beat platinum and even low diamond protoss. I'm finding this strategy even works vs zerg, or at least the gold/platinum zergs I play vs.
But I have a question, what do I do vs warp prism harass? This protoss dropped 4 zealots in my main as soon as I moved out, and I was forced to retreat and defend. He then did this happened again, etc. I ended up losing the game because he got 2 colosuses out by the time I got to his base.
thanks
If he drops 4 zealots in your main you just take your army + all your base scvs and go kill him. Lift your CC towards your army, and pump out one last round of units from your rax/fact/starport, then lift those too towards your army. If they invest 600 in 4zealots/warp prism they will have much less stuff at home to deal with your push.
With all respect, this is not valid in masters Stimmed. 4-zeal warp prism - or more likely, hidden-pylon-and-he-just-runs-them-over-to-your-ramp-zeals don't invest enough that a good player that isn't losing too much stuff will let you break in suddenly. He can force a base-swap with very little investment indeed sometimes, leaving you in a very uncomfortable position.
The best example I can think of is a protoss that forced a lift-off with zealot warp ins into my main (he had a probe and observer out on the map when I established contain, did a low-ground pylon warp-in), and had a single voidray that took out my Orbital and barracks on-route! I was forced to try and crack him and ended up pushing into 3 colossi which picked off all my marines. I wasn't dead but neither was I mining - nasty game. I'll try and dig up the replay.
Just for reference, I'm in grandmasters =] Anyways at the highest level of play if you waste 600 minerals on an attack that doesn't do much, you will lose. In addition that warp prism eats up robo build time. The first hellion should poke around for these pylons anyways.
I have never had problems with 4 zealot drops with this build. Yes it is extremely annoying to get 4 zealot dropped, but you just simply send all your scvs now instead of just 12-16 of them. It's sorta how in TvZ, if 20+ mutas keep poking your base, you just say 'ok i've had it, and take your whole army and march across the map and force him to come back to defend your push'.
edit: Terran's almost always win base trades btw =]
I'm sorry if I'm trolling, but could you tell me what server you're grandmasters? All your replays are from SEA, but you have played 5 games total on that account, and I can't find you anywhere else.
I bring this up because I've talked to a few of my practice partners about this build before (as well as your last guide), and they don't feel like it's a legitimate strategy beyond maybe low masters. When you throw around the term "grandmaster" it means you know what you are doing and people should listen. In logical reasoning terminology, it's known as an appeal to authority--that we should believe you because you're a high level player.
However, this isn't a build you've refined in ladder play (and if it is, you haven't posted any of those replays), and I don't see any evidence that you've ever been in GM league on any server. If I'm gravely mistaken then I sincerely do apologize for calling you out, but if indeed you aren't, I hope that you'll stop trying to mislead lower players into working on a build like this that many people have already stated is not very solid at higher level play. (here's a list of the current GM rankings on SEA http://www.playxp.com/sc2/ladder/1v1/sea.php )
And even that's okay, but please don't hype it to be some unbeatable build when it is untested and many good terran players openly disagree and have already left their comments in this thread.
I recently got sponsored so my new name is CGFatal. Just got it recently so I haven't played too many games on there, but it is in masters. I have a smurf account which is in GM on SEA, I get recognized with my StimmedProbe on SEA too easily and ppl stalk me lol... Anyways since I don't wanna tell everyone the smurf name here is some proof for you:
1.) Recently won an HK tournament and I played a guy named inFiRoz 12 times in the tournament and my overall record vs him was 7:5. He is a rank 44 grandmaster. http://www.sc2ranks.com/sea/19519/inFiRoz Below is a highlight video I made of our winners bracket finals.
2.) Season 2 promotion picture, the guy I beat in that picture (YoonYJ) was at the time ranked #4 in SEA, currently ranked #39. http://i.imgur.com/6jqhi.jpg
3.) Season 2 sc2ranks.com SEA server grandmaster stats sorted by winrate. 75%, behind moonglade who had 82%. My MMR had me constantly matched against the top 50 players in the region. http://i.imgur.com/WLS63.jpg
Hopefully that is enough to prove that I know what I'm talking about. Anyways about build doubts, I have done the build over 35 times, and crushed face with it every time. It was so effective it got boring after awhile to be really honest. Most of the replays were just me microing a bit and overpowering my opponent, or setting up an insane contain which lead to a victory a few minutes later. If the terran knows how to abuse zealot AI with SCVs, you are really really screwed trust me.... esp with a crisp build order like mine... the only times I have lost with this were when I skipped a bunker and got 4gated (greedy).
111 and marine still SCV works at GM even after you play the guy several times, ima go play terran!!!
Um he didn't the same build several times. The 3 rax cheese was a one-off, the 1-1-1 all-in was a one-off, the others were all strange cool mech variants or 2-base 1-1-1. What exactly is your point?
On August 24 2011 09:12 MMXMoto-X17 wrote: This is one of the best Tvp guides I ever read. Very well written to, Nice! I'm only gold but after practicing this build a few times I'm starting to beat platinum and even low diamond protoss. I'm finding this strategy even works vs zerg, or at least the gold/platinum zergs I play vs.
But I have a question, what do I do vs warp prism harass? This protoss dropped 4 zealots in my main as soon as I moved out, and I was forced to retreat and defend. He then did this happened again, etc. I ended up losing the game because he got 2 colosuses out by the time I got to his base.
thanks
If he drops 4 zealots in your main you just take your army + all your base scvs and go kill him. Lift your CC towards your army, and pump out one last round of units from your rax/fact/starport, then lift those too towards your army. If they invest 600 in 4zealots/warp prism they will have much less stuff at home to deal with your push.
With all respect, this is not valid in masters Stimmed. 4-zeal warp prism - or more likely, hidden-pylon-and-he-just-runs-them-over-to-your-ramp-zeals don't invest enough that a good player that isn't losing too much stuff will let you break in suddenly. He can force a base-swap with very little investment indeed sometimes, leaving you in a very uncomfortable position.
The best example I can think of is a protoss that forced a lift-off with zealot warp ins into my main (he had a probe and observer out on the map when I established contain, did a low-ground pylon warp-in), and had a single voidray that took out my Orbital and barracks on-route! I was forced to try and crack him and ended up pushing into 3 colossi which picked off all my marines. I wasn't dead but neither was I mining - nasty game. I'll try and dig up the replay.
Just for reference, I'm in grandmasters =] Anyways at the highest level of play if you waste 600 minerals on an attack that doesn't do much, you will lose. In addition that warp prism eats up robo build time. The first hellion should poke around for these pylons anyways.
I have never had problems with 4 zealot drops with this build. Yes it is extremely annoying to get 4 zealot dropped, but you just simply send all your scvs now instead of just 12-16 of them. It's sorta how in TvZ, if 20+ mutas keep poking your base, you just say 'ok i've had it, and take your whole army and march across the map and force him to come back to defend your push'.
edit: Terran's almost always win base trades btw =]
Well, low econ TvP is the ONE situation I'd even consider basetrading.
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Polt Timing Attack
