EPT[G] StimmedProbe's TvP 1-1-1 All-in/Contain - Page 3
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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greggy
United Kingdom1483 Posts
Firstly, this isn't the strongest 111 allin possible. The (well-known) 4tanks 3 banshess no raven or hellions or cloak or any other nonsense (a la boxer v incontrol @mlg anaheim) is much stronger than this. This gets to my base - as you said at around 9:40 and I'm pretty sure that with some stalker harassment I could delay you to about 10:00. The allin I'm describing is at my base at 9:00 or so. Secondly, 1gate fe (robo before or after the nexus) IS the correct response to this allin. See QTIP's or L3g3nd's guides to stopping it. Many other pro protosses counter this allin with expand. Thirdly, the counters to this build you mention are somewhat laughable. Thermal lance colossi? Not a chance if the build - even as imperfect as yours - is executed well. You'll have 1 colossus with second on the way when this push hits and it's nowhere near enough, so the terran will just 1a you. Charge doesn't finish in time either. I also find it laughable that you describe your build as "unstoppable", "strongest", "insane", etc. In addition to these statements being simply untrue, you'd expect the replays to show you win each time against the direct counter - namely mass zealot/1-2 sentries/some stalkers to kill banshees/immortals - but in none of your replays did the protoss go for the BO that wins against this. | ||
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kckkryptonite
1126 Posts
On August 10 2011 13:18 Jumbled wrote: Slapping your name in the title when you're just describing one version of a well-known and widely-used build is pretty poor form. I'm also not too clear on what you feel is unique about your build, other than that you include a couple of unupgraded hellions and advocate researching building armour(?). This. The 1-1-1 all-in has a ton of variants, this is just one of them, but not nearly as innovative or new as having its own thread would lead one to believe asssuming they watch any tournaments. I mean, the Protoss either breaks it or he doesn't, if he's letting you build CC's and Ebays at his natural while he sits on one base while not doing anything - he knows he lost. this is like a guide on how to drag out a victory when a Protoss thinks he can win by letting a ridiculous contain happen. tl;dr of it is build stuff to contain him. That said I dislike getting the Helions since that means you will have slower tank production and Marines are most certainly a better investment. | ||
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
On August 10 2011 20:57 Sated wrote: This is all good advice. You forget to mention that if you're doing this, you need sentries to help your zealots kill marines efficiently otherwise the marines can kite them. You don't need sentries. He technically can kite with his marines, but without stim or shells, you can just disengage and he can't do anything. He can't chase you down. If he tries kiting, just kill his tanks and disengage. If he actually comes to your base you can handle the marines by just having your zealots in front and you stalkers chasing after shooting the marines as they try to kite. | ||
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Crytch
Germany135 Posts
Every single protossplayer will just poke with a zealot/stalker or multiple stalker at your front, and if he see no bunker and only marines he will just overroll you... btw. whats the name of the song in your replay in which you play on shakuras against that npc? | ||
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Amoment
Germany175 Posts
So I got 5 koloss and could clear it, but he took expo after that and had the same army again, no way for P to def. | ||
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Crytch
Germany135 Posts
On August 10 2011 22:43 Amoment wrote: this happens to me in TvP always and due siege tank+raven high ground vision forcefields are useless TT So I got 5 koloss and could clear it, but he took expo after that and had the same army again, no way for P to def. Hm, if you have a worker/stalker at your opponents choke, which you need if he 1 base techs, you see it coming. Get mass Stalkers and kite him over the map, which delays a lot for terran. Due to stalkerspeed which is higher then all units terran has in his mix you will only loose some shieldpoints. If he nearly reached your natural just pull workers and catch him unsieged. Im terran, but i would try this. I sometimes play this BO and thats the nightmare for me. Fucking kiting stalker which lower my units while he only loose shieldspoints, and getting attacked offguard mostly means gg. If he drop down pdd pull back into your natural, so he wont have one in the next fight. | ||
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Huggerz
Great Britain919 Posts
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p1cKLes
United States342 Posts
I think it's a great post thank you! | ||
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eieio
United States14512 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + 10 Supply Depot 11 Refinery 14 Barracks 18 Supply Depot 18 Factory 19 Barracks (begin to cut scvs unless you see it specified) 19 Orbital Command 19 Marine 20 Starport 20 Marine 21 Refinery 21 SCV 22 Marine 23 Marine 24 Supply Depot 24 Factory Tech Lab 24 Starport Tech Lab 24 Marine 25 Marine 26 Marine 27 Hellion 29 Raven 31 Supply Depot 31 Marine 32 SCV 33 Marine 34 Hellion 36 Marine 37 Supply Depot 37 Marine 38 Marine 39 Banshee 42 Hellion 44 Marine 45 Marine 46 Siege Tank 49 Supply Depot 49 Siege Tech 49 Marine 50 Marine 51 Marine 52 Banshee 55 Calldown Supplies 55 Marine 56 Siege Tank 59 SCV 60 Marine 61 Marine 62 SCV This gives you 23 scvs, 20 marines, 3 hellions, 2 tanks, siege tech, raven, and 2 banshees at about 8:29, which seems significantly faster than your build. (The main differences are that it cuts scvs, goes gas first, and gets 2 rax instead of a reactor) edit: That being said, I'm not convinced that the build I posted is optimal either; it's just a faster way to get the exact composition you discussed. With riskier play and fewer marines I think you can push out closer to the 8 minute mark, which could be very very brutal. | ||
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D_K_night
Canada615 Posts
I also notice that in the video, you didn't wall in. I suppose for a map with a ramp, you won't need to(?) but what about the maps where there's no ramp? | ||
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Bonham
Canada655 Posts
Anyway, thanks for writing it up (and thereby stimulating a bunch of discussion on how to beat it.) | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On August 10 2011 19:10 Micket wrote: Nah you can still go kill him. Siege tank contain ftw. Protoss will have no units because of the investment in the stupid drop. Warp prisming 4 zealots to the main is actually a smart move by the protoss player. I think that drop play is a good, if rarely used, answer to a siege tank contain in TvP. Protoss isn't gonna "just FF the ramp and tech to colossi, but tanks are definitely much better at defending than attacking, and without the benefits of your statics, and walking up the ramp against a guy who may have sentries makes it a very dangerous proposition to actually kill him. This is the primary distinction between, say, a 4 zealot drop and a base trade is that in the case of a 4 zealot drop, he hasn't committed any GAS to attacking you, just some robo time and some minerals/food. If he ferries his entire army to the lowground in secret and tries to base trade, you'll win because you're terran and terran is good at base trades-- but if he tries to drop you, even with a fairly small number of zealots, and conserves his gas for sentries and immortals at home, he MIGHT be able to hold a doom push from your contain, and slow down mining enough or force enough at-home units that he could make something happen with a bust. If he has a full energy sentry at home, or even 2 or 3, he can try to forcefield you out, but then it becomes the most dangerous game, where the 10.7 effective range of the forcefield is pitted up against the 13 range of the Siege tank. Really, though, when we ask "what does Protoss do in this situation, when he is contained and up against many bunkers and tanks?", we are asking the wrong question. If you bear with me for a moment, I will offer a quotation from economist Brad Delong: Professor Delong wrote: My great uncle Phil from Marblehead Massachusetts used to talk about a question on a sailing safety examination he once took: "What should you do if you are caught on a lee shore in a hurricane?" The correct answer was: "You never get caught on a lee shore in a hurricane!" The answer to the question of what you should do when conventional monetary policy is tapped out and you are at the zero interest rate nominal bound is that you should never get in such a situation in the first place. Applied to this situation, asking what to do when a bunker-tank contain goes up in your natural is the wrong question; the correct question is "what can I do to prevent this from happening?" and the answer is basically to attack before the bunkers get up or the tanks are sieged or whatever defense you can muster when doing a safe FE. If you have to pull 20ish probes or something, do what you have to-- the terran player has pulled 15 scvs, and you have an extra nexus, so it might not be a bad idea to bring some workers to the fight.On August 10 2011 19:41 gejfsyd wrote: Why do you say its unstoppable? Why do you assume protoss will stay on 1 base? Why do you call it "StimmedProbe's 1-1-1"? WHY??? But its still a well written guide for an already existing build that many people didnt know before. 1) He says it's unstoppable because if it gets up, it's unbelievably difficult to break. 2) He doesn't; he actually assumes that protoss fast expands. But regardless of the protoss play, this sort of contain is brutal and will usually take down the nexus. 3) Because there are a lot of 1-1-1s out there, and he needs to specify it. This is a pretty specific unit composition, and push. There's even a lot of 1-1-1 tank contains out there, and this si a specific one among them. On August 10 2011 20:57 Sated wrote: This is all good advice. You forget to mention that if you're doing this, you need sentries to help your zealots kill marines efficiently otherwise the marines can kite them. Again, I think the key to stopping this is to just not let the contain get up. If you pull probes or make a lot of units and engage when/where the dude has no bunkers, you'll do pretty well-- or at least better than you will once he was a heroic wall of buildings and bunkers in front of repairscvs to eat your attacks. On August 10 2011 21:03 greggy wrote: You obviously put some time into this so I guess it's only fair that I put some time to pick your guide apart. Firstly, this isn't the strongest 111 allin possible. The (well-known) 4tanks 3 banshess no raven or hellions or cloak or any other nonsense (a la boxer v incontrol @mlg anaheim) is much stronger than this. This gets to my base - as you said at around 9:40 and I'm pretty sure that with some stalker harassment I could delay you to about 10:00. The allin I'm describing is at my base at 9:00 or so. Secondly, 1gate fe (robo before or after the nexus) IS the correct response to this allin. See QTIP's or L3g3nd's guides to stopping it. Many other pro protosses counter this allin with expand. Thirdly, the counters to this build you mention are somewhat laughable. Thermal lance colossi? Not a chance if the build - even as imperfect as yours - is executed well. You'll have 1 colossus with second on the way when this push hits and it's nowhere near enough, so the terran will just 1a you. Charge doesn't finish in time either. I also find it laughable that you describe your build as "unstoppable", "strongest", "insane", etc. In addition to these statements being simply untrue, you'd expect the replays to show you win each time against the direct counter - namely mass zealot/1-2 sentries/some stalkers to kill banshees/immortals - but in none of your replays did the protoss go for the BO that wins against this. When he says this is the strongest all-in possible, he's not saying it has the most units-- it just has the most tanks and the best amount of scvs to set up statics and walls. A big thing to note is that unlike MOST marine tank banshee allins, this one pulls 15 scvs. That's actually really huge, and the fact that they can repair and screw up the AI, as well as build statics, meshes really well with the siege tanks and marines. There was a time when 2 gate robo expand into super fast colossus rush was totally a thing. There was a time when 1 base colossus was also totally a thing. Unupgraded marines are amazingly bad against even non-lance colossi, since there's no stim, no combat shields, and no marauders. The request for replays against certain BOs is reasonable-- but ALSO NOTE that this build specifically denies scouting, using raven and marines, making it difficult for protoss to find a BO win. It's hard to go for a mass immortal chargelot build when you're blind. On August 10 2011 21:22 kckkryptonite wrote: This. The 1-1-1 all-in has a ton of variants, this is just one of them, but not nearly as innovative or new as having its own thread would lead one to believe asssuming they watch any tournaments. I mean, the Protoss either breaks it or he doesn't, if he's letting you build CC's and Ebays at his natural while he sits on one base while not doing anything - he knows he lost. this is like a guide on how to drag out a victory when a Protoss thinks he can win by letting a ridiculous contain happen. tl;dr of it is build stuff to contain him. That said I dislike getting the Helions since that means you will have slower tank production and Marines are most certainly a better investment. I think that this build order is pretty specific and doesn't have an entry in liquipedia or an existing thread on TL. Warden's TvP, for example, is "go 1-1-1 and make every unit" which doesn't sound that innovative either until you give it a try. Stimmedprobe also wrote the Million Man Marine guide, which is hilarious and excellent. The 1-1-1 all in has a tone of varients, and this is just one of them, but it's not just a push-- it's a contain. There are a lot of tank-based 1-1-1 style contain plays, but the idea of pulling this many scvs and making these buildings is pretty smart. The guide includes information that you can't find easily on TL, which is, how to muscle your way to the protoss front and spam some buildings to really get the contain going-- and how the 1-base play favors terran. It's not an issue of Protoss "breaking" this contain. Once you've arrived at the protoss base, he has about 30 seconds before you're unbreakable, and he has to attack then. Once you have a bunch of bunkers and wall pieces laying around, it becomes impossible for the short-ranged protoss units to fight tanks effectively. | ||
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Derez
Netherlands6068 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + 10 depot 12 rax 15 oc 15 marine (1) 16 CC 17 depot (and throughout) 18 marine (and throughout) 20 refinery x2 22 bunker @ nat 25 oc 26 fact 26 reactor on rax 29 refinery @ nat 34 techlab @ fact (tanks + siege when finished, and tanks throughout) 34 starport 45 lab @ port (banshee when finished, followed by raven, followed by banshee) 53 rax x3 (add lab x2 and reactor x1 when done, marines from all of them) hit about a 100 food, move out (with 5ish SCV's) and contain. From thereon out, adapt your contain to what your opponent has. Generally, try and transition into infantry upgrades, add vikings if there's colossi, ghosts aren't a neccesity against storm due to bunkers and the ineffectiveness of 2 base templar play in the first place, but they're awesome to have incase of archons. Sorry for slightly hijacking the thread, but it can't hurt to have another option out there, plus it's similar in a lot of ways as many have pointed out. | ||
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iChau
United States1210 Posts
On August 10 2011 18:38 cilinder007 wrote: lol and he just FF's the ramp and techs to colossi the best was to respond to that is the second he warps in zealots just amove all the scvs and use the next few marines that spawn to kill the warp prisim There is a reason why this build has siege mode. | ||
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statikg
Canada930 Posts
I definitely feel like in masters alot of toss have got this one figured out. Obviosuly once the contain is up they are screwed, and this is a great description of a good FAST push that gets you there. When I do this strategy, I try to do it with just 2 tanks and no starport asap. I find most protoss try to go for some robo tech units to defend it. I definitely think the guy talking about the mass zealot armor ups FE has the best counter figured out, but that would definitely not put you in a great spot for my 2base timing push. | ||
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greggy
United Kingdom1483 Posts
On August 11 2011 03:58 Blazinghand wrote: When he says this is the strongest all-in possible, he's not saying it has the most units-- it just has the most tanks and the best amount of scvs to set up statics and walls. A big thing to note is that unlike MOST marine tank banshee allins, this one pulls 15 scvs. That's actually really huge, and the fact that they can repair and screw up the AI, as well as build statics, meshes really well with the siege tanks and marines. There was a time when 2 gate robo expand into super fast colossus rush was totally a thing. There was a time when 1 base colossus was also totally a thing. Unupgraded marines are amazingly bad against even non-lance colossi, since there's no stim, no combat shields, and no marauders. The request for replays against certain BOs is reasonable-- but ALSO NOTE that this build specifically denies scouting, using raven and marines, making it difficult for protoss to find a BO win. It's hard to go for a mass immortal chargelot build when you're blind. None of your points are actually valid I'm afraid. This isn't the strongest allin possible not because it has most tanks (and the reason it might have most tanks, which I'm not even particularly sure about, is because it is delayed by up to a minute, as I mentioned previously), but because a) it hits later; b) raven and particularly hellions just aren't all that useful. They're both 'ok', as in, yeah, hellion does extra to zealots and raven sorta nullifies stalkers (and provides detection vs obs), but they use up valuable factory/starport time which could be used to make tanks and banshees. Marines are really rather good anyway so you might as well make them instead of hellions. Pretty much every 111 allin pulls some amount of scvs. Usually it's between 10 and all, I've seen less but I feel T needs quite a few to do fast repairs. Colossi have less range than tanks and take bonus damage from them. Unless you get caught with your pants down, colossus shouldn't do that much damage. You have banshees to spot high ground. There isn't that much scouting that needs to be done against this build. If I see bunker with marines when I poke with repeatedly probe/first stalker (esp if I scouted gas before), I know something's up. Yes, raven might deny obs, but this already tells me this isn't, for example, thor allin. Moreover, pretty much every variation of 111 does banshee harassment. It's not hard to put 2+2 and deduce that since there's no expo, he's allining. Any variation of 111 is damn hard to hold as P, make no mistake. But if you're making a guide about it, you might as well make the guide to be about the best one. | ||
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Theeakoz
United States1114 Posts
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IMLyte
Canada714 Posts
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drcatellino
Canada346 Posts
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