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On November 23 2011 03:23 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2011 02:12 Lazerlike42 wrote:Well, even 5 colossus is just something I have a hard time with. The micro required is just too much for me at times, even though I practice it a great deal.
And yes, I know that the easy answer is to not allow a Protoss to get that many colossus. The problem is that some games you have the edge and are able to control things, whereas in other games you really can't control things just because you get slightly behind somewhere along the line or in general he has you on the ropes. The most common scenario that leads to this is that I scout colossus, but do not have enough vikings to engage what he already has. Thus I need to delay, which gives him time to make more, and eventually it gets out of hand. I try to drop to set him back economically or to kill the robotics bay, but this does not work nearly consistently enough. In the end it leads to either my army size going down from losing the drop, or to him immediately attacking when I still am not prepared for even a relatively small colossus number. You do not necessarily have to engage as soon as you see Colossi. Consider getting a second Starport, with Reactor if necessary (lift one of your Reactor Barracks and build Starport), if you scout Colossi "too late" or if he makes more than, say, 4 Colossi. It's difficult to be more specific without replay, but if you're losing because your opponent goes Colossi after securing an advantage, the problem is not so much Colossi as how he got that (early ?) advantage. Bear in mind that assuming perfect Chronoboosts, each Robotics builds one Colossus every 50 seconds, whereas you can get one Viking every 21 / 14 / 7 seconds with one Reactor Starport / one RStarport + one naked Starport / two Reactor Starports.If he's slowly building his Colossus army, you should have time to react.
Just wanted to point out that this kind of logic wouldn't really work. Reactors double production, but they don't halve the production time of each Viking. It's only accurate to say that you'll get 2 Vikings every 42 seconds with one reactored Starport. You can't divide both sides by the lowest common denominator like that.
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On November 23 2011 04:35 sOm wrote:Can you give me more detail on the 21/14/7 every seconds definition? Is that just a number factored down to avg?
Ups, mistake, it was 10,5* and not 7. Well, it's just 42/2, 42/3 and 42/4, so yes it's on average. Of course, when you actually get them depends on when you started to build them.
On November 23 2011 05:38 S_SienZ wrote:It's only accurate to say that you'll get 2 Vikings every 42 seconds with one reactored Starport.
Because you have a Reactor does not mean that you started to produce your 2 Vikings at the same second. What I said was indeed a simplification, but Reactor do not necessarily synchronize production.
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Hey guys i don't know who's been seeing things but i've been playing zerg players that have been doing 2 base ban bust plays and from a terran's point of view how does one go about stopping this aggression cause it seems like the more i'm stuck on one base the more he'll and it seems like a never ending ban bust
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On November 23 2011 06:48 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2011 05:38 S_SienZ wrote:It's only accurate to say that you'll get 2 Vikings every 42 seconds with one reactored Starport. Because you have a Reactor does not mean that you started to produce your 2 Vikings at the same second. What I said was indeed a simplification, but Reactor do not necessarily synchronize production.
Noted. The more accurate version would be: at best you'll have 2 Vikings every 42 seconds with a reactored Starport, since building 2 together asap would be the optimal production. If the 2nd one were delayed you would have 1 Viking by 42 seconds and 2 within 42< x < 84 seconds, x being the time.
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Blazinghand
United States25560 Posts
On November 23 2011 06:48 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2011 04:35 sOm wrote:Can you give me more detail on the 21/14/7 every seconds definition? Is that just a number factored down to avg? Ups, mistake, it was 10,5* and not 7. Well, it's just 42/2, 42/3 and 42/4, so yes it's on average. Of course, when you actually get them depends on when you started to build them. Show nested quote +On November 23 2011 05:38 S_SienZ wrote:It's only accurate to say that you'll get 2 Vikings every 42 seconds with one reactored Starport. Because you have a Reactor does not mean that you started to produce your 2 Vikings at the same second. What I said was indeed a simplification, but Reactor do not necessarily synchronize production.
There IS in fact one other difference-- when producing three vikings out of a reactor, all 6 food, 225 vespenes, etc, are "banked" inside the starport. It's different than building one viking every 10.5s-- you're legitimately building several vikings at once, and have a certain amount of resources and food that are in the starport, but not on the field or in your coffers, as a result. It's a minor difference, but one worth noting.
Also, since most people tend to produce units in waves, and usually both units coming out of a reactor will be synchronized, I think it's more accurate to say you produce 3x as many vikings rather than that you produce them 3x as fast even if in the long run this means the same thing. Just a thought.
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On November 23 2011 06:49 Blackknight232 wrote:
Hey guys i don't know who's been seeing things but i've been playing zerg players that have been doing 2 base ban bust plays and from a terran's point of view how does one go about stopping this aggression cause it seems like the more i'm stuck on one base the more he'll and it seems like a never ending ban bust
A replay would be nice so we can see how you could have seen and defended this with your opening (you may or may not have access to Tanks depending on how you opened / at which time they hit). I guess Zerg harvesting gas after 2400 on his first geyser might be a sign, though.
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On November 23 2011 06:49 Blackknight232 wrote:
Hey guys i don't know who's been seeing things but i've been playing zerg players that have been doing 2 base ban bust plays and from a terran's point of view how does one go about stopping this aggression cause it seems like the more i'm stuck on one base the more he'll and it seems like a never ending ban bust
Get tanks? Also, if you manage to find their banelings pre-bust a great way to mess around with them is to load up a medivac and drop on them. If they are on A-move it forces the most inefficient exchange for them. Also, if you have godlike micro, dropping using Marauders with Concussive Shells it's possible to kill all their banelings without losses.
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Blazinghand
United States25560 Posts
On November 23 2011 06:54 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2011 06:49 Blackknight232 wrote:
Hey guys i don't know who's been seeing things but i've been playing zerg players that have been doing 2 base ban bust plays and from a terran's point of view how does one go about stopping this aggression cause it seems like the more i'm stuck on one base the more he'll and it seems like a never ending ban bust A replay would be nice so we can see how you could have seen and defended this with your opening. I guess Zerg harvesting gas after 2400 on his first geyser might be a sign, though.
I agree that a replay would be good. From the somewhat brief description it's difficult to tell exactly what's going on- there's a lot of different ways zerg can use banelings, and when it happens, etc, varies.
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lol i would upload it but my replay file got so big i had to delete some of them but i'm just asking what would be a general idea on what to do though? should i go for banshee play or what?
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On November 23 2011 07:08 Blackknight232 wrote:
lol i would upload it but my replay file got so big i had to delete some of them but i'm just asking what would be a general idea on what to do though? should i go for banshee play or what?
Use e. g. http://drop.sc/ to upload them. Banshees are not necessary, spread Marines with one or more bunkers and Tanks (if you can, depends on your opening) should be able to handle it. What's your league, by the way ?
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i'm in gold right now been trying to get plat for a very long time. I've missed plat in the last two seasons
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On November 23 2011 07:41 Blackknight232 wrote:
i'm in gold right now been trying to get plat for a very long time. I've missed plat in the last two seasons
OK. How do you open against Z (Reactor Hellion, 2 rax, Siege expand...) ? Did you try to upload a replay at http://drop.sc/ ?
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i don't have the replay from it but this is the one i did when i won:
http://drop.sc/63111
anyway i do a 1 rax/1 factory no add on(or try too.) i'm a heavy mech player so maybe that helps a lot
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On November 23 2011 09:33 Blackknight232 wrote:i don't have the replay from it but this is the one i did when i won: http://drop.sc/63111anyway i do a 1 rax/1 factory no add on(or try too.) i'm a heavy mech player so maybe that helps a lot
OK, about the game :
First sign, he does not hatch 15 expand. 14gas/14pool (well, he went something weird like 12/13, but it should be 14/14) means he might be up to something tricky like this. 14/14 without expand most likely means baneling bust, so try to sneak a second SCV around the map to see if he went for a delayed expand. If not, assume baneling bust and set proper defence (see below).
Second sign, he keeps harvesting gas after 2400. Don't forget to click on his gas to see the count. Since he does not stop harvesting gas, it means he will invest it in either roaches or banes.
About defence: if you scout one-base baneling bust like you did with your first scan, don't bother with Hellions, go straight for Siege tanks; siege them on the edge of your main base cliff, shoot banes when you see them, and it should be OK. Make some additional Marines, you may have to use some to clean the lings which entered your base. You can resume Hellion production after to scout what he's up to after his failed attempt.
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If I go reactor first 2rax against a Protoss and he 3gate expands instead of being greedy am I better off taking an expand and throwing down a bunker or two or pulling a few scvs and pushing the attack with some bunkers?
I've had moderate success with both, It's kind of map dependent as to how successful the bunkers will be and even if they get up at all. I think both are kinda "viable" but which one do you guys think is *better* and why?
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I seriously need some micro tips for late game TVP maxed battles. I have major trouble against storms and alot of upgraded zealots. How do the top pros make ghost usage look so easy?
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On November 23 2011 13:55 Crankenstein wrote:
If I go reactor first 2rax against a Protoss and he 3gate expands instead of being greedy am I better off taking an expand and throwing down a bunker or two or pulling a few scvs and pushing the attack with some bunkers?
I've had moderate success with both, It's kind of map dependent as to how successful the bunkers will be and even if they get up at all. I think both are kinda "viable" but which one do you guys think is *better* and why?
2 rax is a build designed to punish relatively fast expanding protoss. You have no business trying to punish 3 gate builds and the safe bet would be to expo and tech to medivacs.
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Hi there to whom is reading this post,
I'm a high diamond Terran regularly being matched with master level opponents, and for the longest time now TvP has been my worst match-up. While there's a lot of things i know i need to work on, I have a few specific questions that I'm not quite sure about and would like to get some answers:
1) What are the best responses to common Protoss 2 base timing attacks such as 6 gate colossus timings, 7 gateway timings, etc. And what are the common tells for being able to scout such timings/what time should i be scouting for them?
For clarification I'm talking about the timing attacks where Protoss cuts probes, as these are particularly difficult to stop. I understand I should cut scvs myself, but when should i cut them? and how many bunkers should i be building? 4? 5?
2) Should i start viking production after 2 medivacs or 4 after scouting colossus? And should my instant response to seeing 2 robotics be to drop a 2nd reactor starport? Also should i be getting another starport for vikings to hold 2 base colossus timings like mentioned above?
3) After going a 1 rax FE vs 1 gate FE (or similar) is it best to try and trade armies early? It always seems as when i go for the standard 11 minute medivac push/harass timing that my army would get crushed by forcefields in a straight up fight. I see players like TLO trading ridiculously cost effectively in the early game vs Protoss but without that kind of micro it feels as if i will lose my army and then lose the game to the follow-up counterattack. Any tips for engaging the protoss early game/what my mindset should be?
Thanks for your help 
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Hey Tonem,
1) Saved chrono to dump into warp gate and initial gateway units, and quick second gas are 2 decent tells for some sort of all-in. If you see one of these and they chase away your probe before you see their tech path, scan at between 5:30-6:30 and you should be able to get an idea of what they're doing.
Number of bunkers is totally situational, based on your opening and their attack. Experiment and see; anywhere between 2 and 5 can be an appropriate response to an all-in.
2) My opinion is, unless your army is quite injured and your medivacs are fairly late, you can get by with only 2 for quite a while. Against colossus, your medivacs aren't there to heal during the battle, they're there to make sure what survives is still valuable for the next fight. You really need that magic number of vikings out ASAP (somewhere between 6-8; I think 6 vikings can 3-shot a colossus without upgrades, and 8 vikings can 2-shot with +1)
3) Early engagements, especially before warpgate, will generally be in your favor. Don't overcommit, just try to draw some forcefields and see if you can use them to get yourself in a good position to do damage. Always leave yourself in a position where you can just run away if things go wrong.
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On November 23 2011 15:46 upperbound wrote:
Hey Tonem,
1) Saved chrono to dump into warp gate and initial gateway units, and quick second gas are 2 decent tells for some sort of all-in. If you see one of these and they chase away your probe before you see their tech path, scan at between 5:30-6:30 and you should be able to get an idea of what they're doing.
Number of bunkers is totally situational, based on your opening and their attack. Experiment and see; anywhere between 2 and 5 can be an appropriate response to an all-in.
2) My opinion is, unless your army is quite injured and your medivacs are fairly late, you can get by with only 2 for quite a while. Against colossus, your medivacs aren't there to heal during the battle, they're there to make sure what survives is still valuable for the next fight. You really need that magic number of vikings out ASAP (somewhere between 6-8; I think 6 vikings can 3-shot a colossus without upgrades, and 8 vikings can 2-shot with +1)
3) Early engagements, especially before warpgate, will generally be in your favor. Don't overcommit, just try to draw some forcefields and see if you can use them to get yourself in a good position to do damage. Always leave yourself in a position where you can just run away if things go wrong.
Thanks for your help, I'm still a bit unsure on a couple of things though. Like scanning for their tech between 5:30-6:30 is great but often times with these 2 base timing attacks they might add the last couple of gates a bit later, and in a completely different position to where you might scan. Are there any other tells or do i just have to waste multiple scans to be sure? I just feel it's so hard to know if your opponent has cut probes and is going for a committed 2 base timing, since if you guess that he is and turns out he wasn't, you get way behind.
And so my mindset with early game medivac timings after a fast expand should be just to draw forcefields and keep in a position i can run away? This is generally what i tend to do, usually accompanied with a drop if i see his units are out of position, usually at this point with forcefields it feels like his army is stronger however i feel if i don't do damage at this point he goes to the lategame easily where it seems to be protoss favoured, or he crushes me with the 2 base timing. Is it sometimes better to throw away your army to get his sentries and maybe a colossus that just popped out w/out range?
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EPT
