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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions.
Corridor
Profile Joined June 2011
Malaysia32 Posts
November 23 2011 21:10 GMT
#1501
Hi, I've been hearing a few people brag about this unbeatable TvZ strat:

-8 minute blue flame timing harass with 5-6 hellions.
-12 minute 1+mech armor attack with 3-4 thors with marine and hellion support
-win

Is this even possible? Also, what should I be expecting to do with this two pushes? What can the Zerg to in defense?
Adrenalinz
Profile Joined September 2011
30 Posts
November 23 2011 21:41 GMT
#1502
What is a really good guide for winning in TvP?

For the last two days, I have faced mostly protoss and have lost all of my games to them. Not a single victory against protoss.

I'm plat. I love TvT and TvZ, but Protoss is the one race that I just don't have a clue about. Where can I learn to change this?
RoboBob
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States798 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-23 22:57:02
November 23 2011 22:43 GMT
#1503
On November 24 2011 06:10 Corridor wrote:
Hi, I've been hearing a few people brag about this unbeatable TvZ strat:

-8 minute blue flame timing harass with 5-6 hellions.
-12 minute 1+mech armor attack with 3-4 thors with marine and hellion support
-win

Is this even possible? Also, what should I be expecting to do with this two pushes? What can the Zerg to in defense?

Honestly that sounds terrible to me. By the time Blue Flame finishes, the Zerg is going to have ample defense ready to repel the harass. Blue flame only helps you kill Zerglings faster, you need +1 Vehicle attack in order to 2 shot drones. Those 5 Hellions are going to be the Terran's entire army. He's not going to have anything at home to defend against a counter while the Armory+first Thor is building.

If the opponent decides to defend the BFH with either Queens or Roaches, the Terran is screwed. 5 Hellions will need to kill at least 10-15 drones in order to be cost effective. Simply don't put that any more drones at your natural expo than that. And if he decides to drop the BFH in your main? Well you should have creep and overlord spread to spot the drop coming ahead of time, so you can pre-pull drones.

That build will simply flat-out die to any early Roach/Ling agression, or a Baneling Bust for that matter. In order to get 3 Thors that quickly with that quick of a BF with +1 armor, the Terran is not going to have any Infantry, Bunkers, Starport, Turrets, or even Scan. And forget about an expo. If you kill the first 5 Hellions I sincerely doubt he could afford to produce more than 3-4 new ones, which lings can handle easily.

Even if you decide to play a macro game instead of going for the quick win, just be smart and flank the army in the open while its walking towards your base. Don't a-move a gazillion lings straight into BFH fire. Thor-based armies move even slower than Tank-based armies. You can't catch them unsieged, but they give you more time to set up flanks.
RoboBob
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States798 Posts
November 23 2011 23:37 GMT
#1504
On November 24 2011 06:41 Adrenalinz wrote:
What is a really good guide for winning in TvP?

For the last two days, I have faced mostly protoss and have lost all of my games to them. Not a single victory against protoss.

I'm plat. I love TvT and TvZ, but Protoss is the one race that I just don't have a clue about. Where can I learn to change this?

The easy answer is 1-1-1. Marine/Tank/Banshee + 1 Raven. Pull about 16 SCVs on autorepair and expand behind the push. Drop PDD, micro your Banshees, and win. Even if you don't kill your opponent you'll usually take out their expo and still have some army leftover. From there, just pull back and play macro, the Protoss won't be able to catch up with double mule after losing their expo.

Other than that, the standard is 1 or 2 Rax FE into MMM + either Ghosts or Vikings depending upon the Protoss' tech choices. It's very important to scout which route the P is going because choosing the wrong one will autolose you the game. Unfortunately it's a very apm-intensive way to play so I don't think it's the best idea for lower level players like you.

I've seen Goody do some jaw-dropping things with Tank-heavy Ghostmech in TvP. I like the idea of it, because my apm is terribad. So far I haven't been able to replicate his success, but I'm still trying. I think the key is to mix in Starport tech. Unfortunately its impossible to go pure Factory units in TvP like you can in TvT and TvZ.

MVP showed off some awesome fast Marine+Tank pushes vs Protoss FEs in MLG. They're definitely worth checking out, the nice thing is that they work decent in TvZ too so those are builds you can practice in multiple matchups at once. I don't think they're worth doing vs 1 basing Protoss though.
Adrenalinz
Profile Joined September 2011
30 Posts
November 23 2011 23:50 GMT
#1505
On November 24 2011 08:37 RoboBob wrote:
The easy answer is 1-1-1. Marine/Tank/Banshee + 1 Raven. Pull about 16 SCVs on autorepair and expand behind the push. Drop PDD, micro your Banshees, and win. Even if you don't kill your opponent you'll usually take out their expo and still have some army leftover. From there, just pull back and play macro, the Protoss won't be able to catch up with double mule after losing their expo.

Other than that, the standard is 1 or 2 Rax FE into MMM + either Ghosts or Vikings depending upon the Protoss' tech choices. It's very important to scout which route the P is going because choosing the wrong one will autolose you the game. Unfortunately it's a very apm-intensive way to play so I don't think it's the best idea for lower level players like you.

I've seen Goody do some jaw-dropping things with Tank-heavy Ghostmech in TvP. I like the idea of it, because my apm is terribad. So far I haven't been able to replicate his success, but I'm still trying. I think the key is to mix in Starport tech. Unfortunately its impossible to go pure Factory units in TvP like you can in TvT and TvZ.

MVP showed off some awesome fast Marine+Tank pushes vs Protoss FEs in MLG. They're definitely worth checking out, the nice thing is that they work decent in TvZ too so those are builds you can practice in multiple matchups at once. I don't think they're worth doing vs 1 basing Protoss though.


I'll give the 1/1/1 another try, but for now I'm going to try this:

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/3595344150

Just found it and it's awesome!
Blackknight232
Profile Joined July 2011
United States169 Posts
November 24 2011 15:52 GMT
#1506
Hey guys i've been wondering on what type of openers i should do cause i've looked in Liquipedia and stuff and none really seem to fancy my taste and i want something i can use to build around my unit comp/army which i will post replays of. Anyway feedback and pointers are much appreciated:

http://drop.sc/64450
http://drop.sc/64453
http://drop.sc/64455
MooSlapper
Profile Joined November 2011
United States113 Posts
November 24 2011 23:16 GMT
#1507
Yo!! Help a moo out..


When I play toss, I hotkey a probe for all my quick building/macroing.

With Terran, an SCV can only build one thing at a time and often you want to biuld a few items (like in battle when mineral piles up a little). Unlike Toss, I find this hard to do with Terran. One time I hot keyed like 6 SCVS and figured I could build 2-3 things then rally them home, and only the ones who were building would come. however, the rally points at some point made all 6 of them go squirrely.

Did I just do something wrong? (Like, rally somewhere other than building/minerals) or can you do it like this? How do pros do? click dragging a bunch of SCVS just seems so primitive and time confuming =-|
MooSlap OP
kofman
Profile Joined August 2011
Andorra698 Posts
November 25 2011 02:01 GMT
#1508
On November 25 2011 00:52 Blackknight232 wrote:
Hey guys i've been wondering on what type of openers i should do cause i've looked in Liquipedia and stuff and none really seem to fancy my taste and i want something i can use to build around my unit comp/army which i will post replays of. Anyway feedback and pointers are much appreciated:

http://drop.sc/64450
http://drop.sc/64453
http://drop.sc/64455

TvT: 1 rax FE
TvP: 3-rax stim
TvZ: Reactored hellion expand
kofman
Profile Joined August 2011
Andorra698 Posts
November 25 2011 02:02 GMT
#1509
On November 24 2011 06:41 Adrenalinz wrote:
What is a really good guide for winning in TvP?

For the last two days, I have faced mostly protoss and have lost all of my games to them. Not a single victory against protoss.

I'm plat. I love TvT and TvZ, but Protoss is the one race that I just don't have a clue about. Where can I learn to change this?

3-rax stim. Make sure to send about 10 scvs with your push.
kofman
Profile Joined August 2011
Andorra698 Posts
November 25 2011 02:03 GMT
#1510
On November 24 2011 06:10 Corridor wrote:
Hi, I've been hearing a few people brag about this unbeatable TvZ strat:

-8 minute blue flame timing harass with 5-6 hellions.
-12 minute 1+mech armor attack with 3-4 thors with marine and hellion support
-win

Is this even possible? Also, what should I be expecting to do with this two pushes? What can the Zerg to in defense?

This build seems really weak. You will die to roaches. Reactored hellion expand into 3 tank push is a much better build.
kofman
Profile Joined August 2011
Andorra698 Posts
November 25 2011 02:05 GMT
#1511
On November 19 2011 02:20 Blazinghand wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 19 2011 02:11 kORALIE wrote:
On November 18 2011 23:24 TheDwf wrote:
On November 18 2011 22:39 kORALIE wrote:So i've been doing that 2 rax 3 bunker expand.

This is your first problem. There is no point in opening 12/14 while going that defensive. 12/14 is a pressure opening, you should start constructing a bunker with your scouting SCV when his Hatchery is morphing at his natural and rally Marines here. This will not likely kill him, but it will force lings and thus slow down his economy will you set up your own expand. I'd suggest teching Siege Tanks faster ; since he went fast Lair, you could have made some damages or even killed him with a Marine/Tank timing push. Even with your all-Marine army, you could have killed him at this point.

You played your 12/14 like a 1 rax FE, which means you had the drawbacks (no map control, no scouting) but not the advantages (economically speaking).



Whatca mean with 12/14?


He's referring to when you build your barracks. The 2 rax 3 bunker FE builds its first barracks at 12 food, and its second barracks at 14 food. Certain highly aggressive builds stop making scvs to make more or earlier barracks, the most notorious being the 11/11, which cuts an scv to make the first barracks, then cuts a couple more to make the second barracks extremely quickly, both of them on 11 food.

TheDwf's critique of the 2 Rax 3 Bunker FE (a variation of the 12/14) is entirely valid at higher levels of play-- skilled zerg players will aggressively produce drones against this kind of build. But, until you've moved beyond bronze league, I'd advise focusing on macroing up a big army as quickly as possible using the 2 Rax 3 Bunker FE, and experimenting to see how you can adapt that build to work for you.

The 2 rax 3 bunker FE is overly cautious. Instead, open 1 rax FE, scout your opponent, and then decide whether you need bunkers or not. Getting 3 bunkers whether they are being aggresive or not is not smart. Do a more advanced build like the 1 rax FE, so you will learn to scout, and its also a better build.
RoboBob
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States798 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-25 06:25:44
November 25 2011 06:24 GMT
#1512
On November 25 2011 08:16 MooSlapper wrote:
Yo!! Help a moo out..


When I play toss, I hotkey a probe for all my quick building/macroing.

With Terran, an SCV can only build one thing at a time and often you want to biuld a few items (like in battle when mineral piles up a little). Unlike Toss, I find this hard to do with Terran. One time I hot keyed like 6 SCVS and figured I could build 2-3 things then rally them home, and only the ones who were building would come. however, the rally points at some point made all 6 of them go squirrely.

Did I just do something wrong? (Like, rally somewhere other than building/minerals) or can you do it like this? How do pros do? click dragging a bunch of SCVS just seems so primitive and time confuming =-|

Personally what I do is use the "idle worker" key actively. I intentionally do not shift-queue my 1-2 SCVs building depots back to minerals. So whenever the "idle worker" icon pops up its kinda a reminder to keep building depots.

It's bad to have too many idle workers though, so I manually select workers to construct other buildings. When you're building multiple buildings at once, remember to issue a move command all before actually placing the buildings on the map. That way all the units all start moving towards the construction point at the same time. You don't want them running to the site one-by-one. And don't use 1 SCV to build 4 Rax in a row in the mid-lategame, wait until you get enough money to slam down 4 Rax at once, and do it with 4 SCVs.

That way if for some reason that site comes under attack, you can cancel all the buildings at once, instead of lifting some and canceling others. It's also really important to keep all your production cycles synched up as terran. You want all your Marines to pop at the same time, so they can ball up to defend against a counterattack in case of emergency. The best way to accomplish that is to build your infastructure in groups and then continuously produce out of everything. If you let your units stream out continuously, then it's really easy for the enemy to pick off your reinforcements one at a time.
S_SienZ
Profile Joined September 2011
1878 Posts
November 25 2011 12:33 GMT
#1513
I have a question about what mindset I should have when it comes to making SCVs. When I first started playing, all I did was make SCVs non-stop. However, recently after watching some streams like Polt's it seems like he only makes just enough SCVs to saturate his bases and makes more after he expands. Is this the way to go about it to get more army?
AssyrianKing
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Australia2111 Posts
November 25 2011 12:51 GMT
#1514
Is it possible to play Tank-Hellion vs Protoss (Vikings incase of Collosus)
I was interested in Thorzain's fake 1/1/1 build into thor/hellion, but instead of mass thors my idea is to put 3/4 tanks and 1/4 thors, and BFH as mineral sink, gradually including Ghosts as well.

As a excellent emp with Hellions acting as meatshield, Tanks to then destory Protoss units (thors cannon ability against Immortals/Colossus) (Vikings vs Collosi, IMO can be very effective
John 15:13
Blackknight232
Profile Joined July 2011
United States169 Posts
November 25 2011 17:30 GMT
#1515
TvP: 3-rax stim

yeah not doing that again. i would rather do a hellion drop and go to mech rather than having three rax and no mech units.
zmansman17
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2567 Posts
November 25 2011 18:12 GMT
#1516
For the record 2 rax play does not guarantee any damage versus nexus first Toss. I have practiced this build with adroit micro v high master toss friend several times. If he plays conservatively (chronos to gateways, cuts probe production to defend early timings) on a relatively large map, you can't do much.
♞ - His EKG is flattening get me a defib stat! Prepped and Ready! - ♞
kofman
Profile Joined August 2011
Andorra698 Posts
November 25 2011 18:26 GMT
#1517
On November 26 2011 02:30 Blackknight232 wrote:
Show nested quote +
TvP: 3-rax stim

yeah not doing that again. i would rather do a hellion drop and go to mech rather than having three rax and no mech units.

Mech is terrible in TvP... if you want to get anywhere, you will have to play bio. Mech is also out of style in TvT. The only MU where mech is good is TvZ.
Willzzz
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom774 Posts
November 25 2011 18:45 GMT
#1518
I've seen several high level pro games where a meching terran has demolished a protoss player. Having said that I can't get it to work at all, and I suspect others would also find it difficult.
MysteryHours
Profile Joined September 2010
United States168 Posts
November 25 2011 18:53 GMT
#1519
On November 26 2011 03:12 zmansman17 wrote:
For the record 2 rax play does not guarantee any damage versus nexus first Toss. I have practiced this build with adroit micro v high master toss friend several times. If he plays conservatively (chronos to gateways, cuts probe production to defend early timings) on a relatively large map, you can't do much.

So on a large map is there any way to punish a Nexus first or should you just 1 rax FE?
kofman
Profile Joined August 2011
Andorra698 Posts
November 25 2011 18:56 GMT
#1520
On November 26 2011 03:53 MysteryHours wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 26 2011 03:12 zmansman17 wrote:
For the record 2 rax play does not guarantee any damage versus nexus first Toss. I have practiced this build with adroit micro v high master toss friend several times. If he plays conservatively (chronos to gateways, cuts probe production to defend early timings) on a relatively large map, you can't do much.

So on a large map is there any way to punish a Nexus first or should you just 1 rax FE?

3-rax stim is autowin vs nexus first.
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