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Corridor
Malaysia32 Posts
-8 minute blue flame timing harass with 5-6 hellions. -12 minute 1+mech armor attack with 3-4 thors with marine and hellion support -win Is this even possible? Also, what should I be expecting to do with this two pushes? What can the Zerg to in defense? | ||
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Adrenalinz
30 Posts
For the last two days, I have faced mostly protoss and have lost all of my games to them. Not a single victory against protoss. I'm plat. I love TvT and TvZ, but Protoss is the one race that I just don't have a clue about. Where can I learn to change this? | ||
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RoboBob
United States798 Posts
On November 24 2011 06:10 Corridor wrote: Hi, I've been hearing a few people brag about this unbeatable TvZ strat: -8 minute blue flame timing harass with 5-6 hellions. -12 minute 1+mech armor attack with 3-4 thors with marine and hellion support -win Is this even possible? Also, what should I be expecting to do with this two pushes? What can the Zerg to in defense? Honestly that sounds terrible to me. By the time Blue Flame finishes, the Zerg is going to have ample defense ready to repel the harass. Blue flame only helps you kill Zerglings faster, you need +1 Vehicle attack in order to 2 shot drones. Those 5 Hellions are going to be the Terran's entire army. He's not going to have anything at home to defend against a counter while the Armory+first Thor is building. If the opponent decides to defend the BFH with either Queens or Roaches, the Terran is screwed. 5 Hellions will need to kill at least 10-15 drones in order to be cost effective. Simply don't put that any more drones at your natural expo than that. And if he decides to drop the BFH in your main? Well you should have creep and overlord spread to spot the drop coming ahead of time, so you can pre-pull drones. That build will simply flat-out die to any early Roach/Ling agression, or a Baneling Bust for that matter. In order to get 3 Thors that quickly with that quick of a BF with +1 armor, the Terran is not going to have any Infantry, Bunkers, Starport, Turrets, or even Scan. And forget about an expo. If you kill the first 5 Hellions I sincerely doubt he could afford to produce more than 3-4 new ones, which lings can handle easily. Even if you decide to play a macro game instead of going for the quick win, just be smart and flank the army in the open while its walking towards your base. Don't a-move a gazillion lings straight into BFH fire. Thor-based armies move even slower than Tank-based armies. You can't catch them unsieged, but they give you more time to set up flanks. | ||
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RoboBob
United States798 Posts
On November 24 2011 06:41 Adrenalinz wrote: What is a really good guide for winning in TvP? For the last two days, I have faced mostly protoss and have lost all of my games to them. Not a single victory against protoss. I'm plat. I love TvT and TvZ, but Protoss is the one race that I just don't have a clue about. Where can I learn to change this? The easy answer is 1-1-1. Marine/Tank/Banshee + 1 Raven. Pull about 16 SCVs on autorepair and expand behind the push. Drop PDD, micro your Banshees, and win. Even if you don't kill your opponent you'll usually take out their expo and still have some army leftover. From there, just pull back and play macro, the Protoss won't be able to catch up with double mule after losing their expo. Other than that, the standard is 1 or 2 Rax FE into MMM + either Ghosts or Vikings depending upon the Protoss' tech choices. It's very important to scout which route the P is going because choosing the wrong one will autolose you the game. Unfortunately it's a very apm-intensive way to play so I don't think it's the best idea for lower level players like you. I've seen Goody do some jaw-dropping things with Tank-heavy Ghostmech in TvP. I like the idea of it, because my apm is terribad. So far I haven't been able to replicate his success, but I'm still trying. I think the key is to mix in Starport tech. Unfortunately its impossible to go pure Factory units in TvP like you can in TvT and TvZ. MVP showed off some awesome fast Marine+Tank pushes vs Protoss FEs in MLG. They're definitely worth checking out, the nice thing is that they work decent in TvZ too so those are builds you can practice in multiple matchups at once. I don't think they're worth doing vs 1 basing Protoss though. | ||
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Adrenalinz
30 Posts
On November 24 2011 08:37 RoboBob wrote: The easy answer is 1-1-1. Marine/Tank/Banshee + 1 Raven. Pull about 16 SCVs on autorepair and expand behind the push. Drop PDD, micro your Banshees, and win. Even if you don't kill your opponent you'll usually take out their expo and still have some army leftover. From there, just pull back and play macro, the Protoss won't be able to catch up with double mule after losing their expo. Other than that, the standard is 1 or 2 Rax FE into MMM + either Ghosts or Vikings depending upon the Protoss' tech choices. It's very important to scout which route the P is going because choosing the wrong one will autolose you the game. Unfortunately it's a very apm-intensive way to play so I don't think it's the best idea for lower level players like you. I've seen Goody do some jaw-dropping things with Tank-heavy Ghostmech in TvP. I like the idea of it, because my apm is terribad. So far I haven't been able to replicate his success, but I'm still trying. I think the key is to mix in Starport tech. Unfortunately its impossible to go pure Factory units in TvP like you can in TvT and TvZ. MVP showed off some awesome fast Marine+Tank pushes vs Protoss FEs in MLG. They're definitely worth checking out, the nice thing is that they work decent in TvZ too so those are builds you can practice in multiple matchups at once. I don't think they're worth doing vs 1 basing Protoss though. I'll give the 1/1/1 another try, but for now I'm going to try this: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/3595344150 Just found it and it's awesome! | ||
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Blackknight232
United States169 Posts
http://drop.sc/64450 http://drop.sc/64453 http://drop.sc/64455 | ||
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MooSlapper
United States113 Posts
When I play toss, I hotkey a probe for all my quick building/macroing. With Terran, an SCV can only build one thing at a time and often you want to biuld a few items (like in battle when mineral piles up a little). Unlike Toss, I find this hard to do with Terran. One time I hot keyed like 6 SCVS and figured I could build 2-3 things then rally them home, and only the ones who were building would come. however, the rally points at some point made all 6 of them go squirrely. Did I just do something wrong? (Like, rally somewhere other than building/minerals) or can you do it like this? How do pros do? click dragging a bunch of SCVS just seems so primitive and time confuming =-| | ||
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kofman
Andorra698 Posts
On November 25 2011 00:52 Blackknight232 wrote: Hey guys i've been wondering on what type of openers i should do cause i've looked in Liquipedia and stuff and none really seem to fancy my taste and i want something i can use to build around my unit comp/army which i will post replays of. Anyway feedback and pointers are much appreciated: http://drop.sc/64450 http://drop.sc/64453 http://drop.sc/64455 TvT: 1 rax FE TvP: 3-rax stim TvZ: Reactored hellion expand | ||
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kofman
Andorra698 Posts
On November 24 2011 06:41 Adrenalinz wrote: What is a really good guide for winning in TvP? For the last two days, I have faced mostly protoss and have lost all of my games to them. Not a single victory against protoss. I'm plat. I love TvT and TvZ, but Protoss is the one race that I just don't have a clue about. Where can I learn to change this? 3-rax stim. Make sure to send about 10 scvs with your push. | ||
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kofman
Andorra698 Posts
On November 24 2011 06:10 Corridor wrote: Hi, I've been hearing a few people brag about this unbeatable TvZ strat: -8 minute blue flame timing harass with 5-6 hellions. -12 minute 1+mech armor attack with 3-4 thors with marine and hellion support -win Is this even possible? Also, what should I be expecting to do with this two pushes? What can the Zerg to in defense? This build seems really weak. You will die to roaches. Reactored hellion expand into 3 tank push is a much better build. | ||
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kofman
Andorra698 Posts
On November 19 2011 02:20 Blazinghand wrote: He's referring to when you build your barracks. The 2 rax 3 bunker FE builds its first barracks at 12 food, and its second barracks at 14 food. Certain highly aggressive builds stop making scvs to make more or earlier barracks, the most notorious being the 11/11, which cuts an scv to make the first barracks, then cuts a couple more to make the second barracks extremely quickly, both of them on 11 food. TheDwf's critique of the 2 Rax 3 Bunker FE (a variation of the 12/14) is entirely valid at higher levels of play-- skilled zerg players will aggressively produce drones against this kind of build. But, until you've moved beyond bronze league, I'd advise focusing on macroing up a big army as quickly as possible using the 2 Rax 3 Bunker FE, and experimenting to see how you can adapt that build to work for you. The 2 rax 3 bunker FE is overly cautious. Instead, open 1 rax FE, scout your opponent, and then decide whether you need bunkers or not. Getting 3 bunkers whether they are being aggresive or not is not smart. Do a more advanced build like the 1 rax FE, so you will learn to scout, and its also a better build. | ||
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RoboBob
United States798 Posts
On November 25 2011 08:16 MooSlapper wrote: Yo!! Help a moo out.. When I play toss, I hotkey a probe for all my quick building/macroing. With Terran, an SCV can only build one thing at a time and often you want to biuld a few items (like in battle when mineral piles up a little). Unlike Toss, I find this hard to do with Terran. One time I hot keyed like 6 SCVS and figured I could build 2-3 things then rally them home, and only the ones who were building would come. however, the rally points at some point made all 6 of them go squirrely. Did I just do something wrong? (Like, rally somewhere other than building/minerals) or can you do it like this? How do pros do? click dragging a bunch of SCVS just seems so primitive and time confuming =-| Personally what I do is use the "idle worker" key actively. I intentionally do not shift-queue my 1-2 SCVs building depots back to minerals. So whenever the "idle worker" icon pops up its kinda a reminder to keep building depots. It's bad to have too many idle workers though, so I manually select workers to construct other buildings. When you're building multiple buildings at once, remember to issue a move command all before actually placing the buildings on the map. That way all the units all start moving towards the construction point at the same time. You don't want them running to the site one-by-one. And don't use 1 SCV to build 4 Rax in a row in the mid-lategame, wait until you get enough money to slam down 4 Rax at once, and do it with 4 SCVs. That way if for some reason that site comes under attack, you can cancel all the buildings at once, instead of lifting some and canceling others. It's also really important to keep all your production cycles synched up as terran. You want all your Marines to pop at the same time, so they can ball up to defend against a counterattack in case of emergency. The best way to accomplish that is to build your infastructure in groups and then continuously produce out of everything. If you let your units stream out continuously, then it's really easy for the enemy to pick off your reinforcements one at a time. | ||
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S_SienZ
1878 Posts
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AssyrianKing
Australia2127 Posts
I was interested in Thorzain's fake 1/1/1 build into thor/hellion, but instead of mass thors my idea is to put 3/4 tanks and 1/4 thors, and BFH as mineral sink, gradually including Ghosts as well. As a excellent emp with Hellions acting as meatshield, Tanks to then destory Protoss units (thors cannon ability against Immortals/Colossus) (Vikings vs Collosi, IMO can be very effective | ||
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Blackknight232
United States169 Posts
TvP: 3-rax stim yeah not doing that again. i would rather do a hellion drop and go to mech rather than having three rax and no mech units. | ||
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zmansman17
United States2567 Posts
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kofman
Andorra698 Posts
On November 26 2011 02:30 Blackknight232 wrote: yeah not doing that again. i would rather do a hellion drop and go to mech rather than having three rax and no mech units. Mech is terrible in TvP... if you want to get anywhere, you will have to play bio. Mech is also out of style in TvT. The only MU where mech is good is TvZ. | ||
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Willzzz
United Kingdom774 Posts
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MysteryHours
United States168 Posts
On November 26 2011 03:12 zmansman17 wrote: For the record 2 rax play does not guarantee any damage versus nexus first Toss. I have practiced this build with adroit micro v high master toss friend several times. If he plays conservatively (chronos to gateways, cuts probe production to defend early timings) on a relatively large map, you can't do much. So on a large map is there any way to punish a Nexus first or should you just 1 rax FE? | ||
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kofman
Andorra698 Posts
On November 26 2011 03:53 MysteryHours wrote: So on a large map is there any way to punish a Nexus first or should you just 1 rax FE? 3-rax stim is autowin vs nexus first. | ||
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