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On November 18 2011 22:39 kORALIE wrote:So i've been doing that 2 rax 3 bunker expand.
This is your first problem. There is no point in opening 12/14 while going that defensive. 12/14 is a pressure opening, you should start constructing a bunker with your scouting SCV when his Hatchery is morphing at his natural and rally Marines here. This will not likely kill him, but it will force lings and thus slow down his economy will you set up your own expand. I'd suggest teching Siege Tanks faster ; since he went fast Lair, you could have made some damages or even killed him with a Marine/Tank timing push. Even with your all-Marine army, you could have killed him at this point.
You played your 12/14 like a 1 rax FE, which means you had the drawbacks (no map control, no scouting) but not the advantages (economically speaking).
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In dealing with 4gate, does it make a difference when placing bunkers on top ramp instead of the bottom ramp?
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Blazinghand
United States25555 Posts
On November 18 2011 23:44 jayman wrote:
In dealing with 4gate, does it make a difference when placing bunkers on top ramp instead of the bottom ramp?
Bunkers at the top of the ramp will be safer and will force your opponent to move units up the ramp before shooting. As a general rule, use bunkers at the top of the ramp until you're ready to fly out to your natural; don't salvage your high-ground bunkers until your low ground bunkers have finished constructing.
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On November 18 2011 23:44 jayman wrote:
In dealing with 4gate, does it make a difference when placing bunkers on top ramp instead of the bottom ramp?
Depends, if you're a boss and you 1rax fe on the lowground you'll build on the lowground. If you're hiding behind your wally wally then obviously on top.
If you do expand lowground and see that 4 gate immediatly pull scvs (vs toss you need to transfer a fair number of scvs to your nat as soon as its operational so you can pull enough scvs in time to repair, not transfering cost me quite a few games^^) and throw down extra bunkers. In my experience a 4 gate can break 1-2 bunkers but if he lets you get up 3 bunkers without doing too much dmg you've basically won.
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How do you deal with a zerg that relies on mass lings until infestors and then ultras or broodlords? ie DIMAGA style. Whenever i face this kind of play i lose to HORRIBLE players because you simply cannot be aggressive, drops get shut down by a billion lings everywhere so you have to turtle and let the zerg take the map in which case you'll get outmacroed...
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On November 19 2011 02:00 Pulimuli wrote:
How do you deal with a zerg that relies on mass lings until infestors and then ultras or broodlords? ie DIMAGA style. Whenever i face this kind of play i lose to HORRIBLE players because you simply cannot be aggressive, drops get shut down by a billion lings everywhere so you have to turtle and let the zerg take the map in which case you'll get outmacroed...
Hard to tell what exactly was your problem without replay, but as a general tip you want to get a fast third since they can't really pressure you. You may also switch to pure bio against this style.
Provide replays for further help.
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On November 18 2011 23:24 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2011 22:39 kORALIE wrote:So i've been doing that 2 rax 3 bunker expand. This is your first problem. There is no point in opening 12/14 while going that defensive. 12/14 is a pressure opening, you should start constructing a bunker with your scouting SCV when his Hatchery is morphing at his natural and rally Marines here. This will not likely kill him, but it will force lings and thus slow down his economy will you set up your own expand. I'd suggest teching Siege Tanks faster ; since he went fast Lair, you could have made some damages or even killed him with a Marine/Tank timing push. Even with your all-Marine army, you could have killed him at this point. You played your 12/14 like a 1 rax FE, which means you had the drawbacks (no map control, no scouting) but not the advantages (economically speaking).
Whatca mean with 12/14?
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On November 19 2011 02:11 kORALIE wrote:
Whatca mean with 12/14?
It means you built your first Barracks at 12 supply, and your second at 14. This is how you distinguish 2 rax openings : 11/11 means you built your Barracks at 11 supply (hence cutting SCVs), etc.
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Blazinghand
United States25555 Posts
On November 19 2011 02:11 kORALIE wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2011 23:24 TheDwf wrote:On November 18 2011 22:39 kORALIE wrote:So i've been doing that 2 rax 3 bunker expand. This is your first problem. There is no point in opening 12/14 while going that defensive. 12/14 is a pressure opening, you should start constructing a bunker with your scouting SCV when his Hatchery is morphing at his natural and rally Marines here. This will not likely kill him, but it will force lings and thus slow down his economy will you set up your own expand. I'd suggest teching Siege Tanks faster ; since he went fast Lair, you could have made some damages or even killed him with a Marine/Tank timing push. Even with your all-Marine army, you could have killed him at this point. You played your 12/14 like a 1 rax FE, which means you had the drawbacks (no map control, no scouting) but not the advantages (economically speaking). Whatca mean with 12/14?
He's referring to when you build your barracks. The 2 rax 3 bunker FE builds its first barracks at 12 food, and its second barracks at 14 food. Certain highly aggressive builds stop making scvs to make more or earlier barracks, the most notorious being the 11/11, which cuts an scv to make the first barracks, then cuts a couple more to make the second barracks extremely quickly, both of them on 11 food.
TheDwf's critique of the 2 Rax 3 Bunker FE (a variation of the 12/14) is entirely valid at higher levels of play-- skilled zerg players will aggressively produce drones against this kind of build. But, until you've moved beyond bronze league, I'd advise focusing on macroing up a big army as quickly as possible using the 2 Rax 3 Bunker FE, and experimenting to see how you can adapt that build to work for you.
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Yeah, when doing 2 Rax 3 Bunker it's very important to poke with your first 6 marines. 6 is the magic number that lets you 1 shot Zerglings, and force Queens to retreat.
Although sometimes you can go with as few as 5 if his speed is late (because the front Marine will be able to fire 2 volleys before the lings close)
Even after you fill your those 3 Bunkers, it's a good idea to send out another squad of 6 marines to clear out WTs and check the enemy's ling count. If the opponent made enough lings to massacre the 6 man squad, then you should be fine anyway because that means the Zerg sacrificed a lot of potential Drones.
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On November 19 2011 02:11 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2011 02:00 Pulimuli wrote:
How do you deal with a zerg that relies on mass lings until infestors and then ultras or broodlords? ie DIMAGA style. Whenever i face this kind of play i lose to HORRIBLE players because you simply cannot be aggressive, drops get shut down by a billion lings everywhere so you have to turtle and let the zerg take the map in which case you'll get outmacroed... Hard to tell what exactly was your problem without replay, but as a general tip you want to get a fast third since they can't really pressure you. You may also switch to pure bio against this style. Provide replays for further help.
pure bio gets ridiculously raped by this and they add in infestors as soon as they get their 3rd going. taking a fast third is out of the question since they just a-move 100 speedlings and rape everything you have if you try it.
This is vs top masters and GM's although i lose vs mid-masters who uses this kind of style
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Against Zerg, should I gas first or rax first if I'm going for a Reactor Hellion expand?
Have been trying out rax 1st with reactor asap after the 1st marine pops. But I usually don't have enough gas (I build factory as soon as I hit 100 gas, usually syncs up perfectly with 150 minerals. So it ends up with my factory being done with my reactor halfway done =.="'
Do you guys think a gas 1st opener would work better? The gas won't be a waste since I transition into [Hellion-Marauder > Marine-Tank] or Full out Mech anyway.
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On November 19 2011 03:40 Pulimuli wrote:pure bio gets ridiculously raped by this and they add in infestors as soon as they get their 3rd going. taking a fast third is out of the question since they just a-move 100 speedlings and rape everything you have if you try it.
This is vs top masters and GM's although i lose vs mid-masters who uses this kind of style
Well, talking out of thin air won't help anyway, so what about some replays in which you lose against this ?
On November 19 2011 03:52 S_SienZ wrote:
Against Zerg, should I gas first or rax first if I'm going for a Reactor Hellion expand?
Have been trying out rax 1st with reactor asap after the 1st marine pops. But I usually don't have enough gas (I build factory as soon as I hit 100 gas, usually syncs up perfectly with 150 minerals. So it ends up with my factory being done with my reactor halfway done =.="'
Do you guys think a gas 1st opener would work better? The gas won't be a waste since I transition into [Hellion-Marauder > Marine-Tank] or Full out Mech anyway.
You may get gas first, but as the Zerg will likely scout it, I'm not sure if it's worth it (or perhaps on bigger maps). If you go Barracks first, you make 2 Marines before getting Reactor on your Barracks. Your Factory should be ready some seconds before your Reactor, but this is no big deal.
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On November 19 2011 03:52 S_SienZ wrote:
Against Zerg, should I gas first or rax first if I'm going for a Reactor Hellion expand?
Have been trying out rax 1st with reactor asap after the 1st marine pops. But I usually don't have enough gas (I build factory as soon as I hit 100 gas, usually syncs up perfectly with 150 minerals. So it ends up with my factory being done with my reactor halfway done =.="'
Do you guys think a gas 1st opener would work better? The gas won't be a waste since I transition into [Hellion-Marauder > Marine-Tank] or Full out Mech anyway.
if you open gas first (11gas 13rax) the gas will line up so that you'll have 50 spare gas when you build your factory so that you may add on the reactor asap and skipping marines completely. Beware of droneblockes and such though 
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On November 19 2011 03:56 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2011 03:40 Pulimuli wrote:pure bio gets ridiculously raped by this and they add in infestors as soon as they get their 3rd going. taking a fast third is out of the question since they just a-move 100 speedlings and rape everything you have if you try it.
This is vs top masters and GM's although i lose vs mid-masters who uses this kind of style Well, talking out of thin air won't help anyway, so what about some replays in which you lose against this ?
ill upload some
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Blazinghand
United States25555 Posts
On November 19 2011 03:40 Pulimuli wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2011 02:11 TheDwf wrote:On November 19 2011 02:00 Pulimuli wrote:
How do you deal with a zerg that relies on mass lings until infestors and then ultras or broodlords? ie DIMAGA style. Whenever i face this kind of play i lose to HORRIBLE players because you simply cannot be aggressive, drops get shut down by a billion lings everywhere so you have to turtle and let the zerg take the map in which case you'll get outmacroed... Hard to tell what exactly was your problem without replay, but as a general tip you want to get a fast third since they can't really pressure you. You may also switch to pure bio against this style. Provide replays for further help. pure bio gets ridiculously raped by this and they add in infestors as soon as they get their 3rd going. taking a fast third is out of the question since they just a-move 100 speedlings and rape everything you have if you try it. This is vs top masters and GM's although i lose vs mid-masters who uses this kind of style
I actually have a lot of trouble, personally, fighting against Infestors using only bio units.
I usually find myself needing Tanks (with their superior range) or Ghosts (for snipe and EMP) to protect my marines and any marauders I might have from the Infestors, since Fungal Growth is a fairly powerful spell. I view Infestors as somewhat analogous to banelings-- bad against tanks, good against marines, burst rather than sustained damage.
Obviously, there are differences, but I've been OK using marine/tank against ling/infestor. One Pro Tip is to get a quick +1 vehicle weapons so your tanks 1-shot the zerglings. This is enormously helpful. Make sure to stay on the ball with your double infantry upgrades, too, since you know the zerg player's doing the same thing.
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On November 19 2011 04:02 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2011 03:40 Pulimuli wrote:On November 19 2011 02:11 TheDwf wrote:On November 19 2011 02:00 Pulimuli wrote:
How do you deal with a zerg that relies on mass lings until infestors and then ultras or broodlords? ie DIMAGA style. Whenever i face this kind of play i lose to HORRIBLE players because you simply cannot be aggressive, drops get shut down by a billion lings everywhere so you have to turtle and let the zerg take the map in which case you'll get outmacroed... Hard to tell what exactly was your problem without replay, but as a general tip you want to get a fast third since they can't really pressure you. You may also switch to pure bio against this style. Provide replays for further help. pure bio gets ridiculously raped by this and they add in infestors as soon as they get their 3rd going. taking a fast third is out of the question since they just a-move 100 speedlings and rape everything you have if you try it. This is vs top masters and GM's although i lose vs mid-masters who uses this kind of style I actually have a lot of trouble, personally, fighting against Infestors using only bio units. I usually find myself needing Tanks (with their superior range) or Ghosts (for snipe and EMP) to protect my marines and any marauders I might have from the Infestors, since Fungal Growth is a fairly powerful spell. I view Infestors as somewhat analogous to banelings-- bad against tanks, good against marines, burst rather than sustained damage. Obviously, there are differences, but I've been OK using marine/tank against ling/infestor. One Pro Tip is to get a quick +1 vehicle weapons so your tanks 1-shot the zerglings. This is enormously helpful. Make sure to stay on the ball with your double infantry upgrades, too, since you know the zerg player's doing the same thing.
Yeah i always go for a quick double ebay and armory to get 3-3 and +1 asap. My ghost usage is bad though ill admit. Im not exactly sure how/when to switch into ghost production
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Blazinghand
United States25555 Posts
On November 19 2011 04:27 Pulimuli wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2011 04:02 Blazinghand wrote:On November 19 2011 03:40 Pulimuli wrote:On November 19 2011 02:11 TheDwf wrote:On November 19 2011 02:00 Pulimuli wrote:
How do you deal with a zerg that relies on mass lings until infestors and then ultras or broodlords? ie DIMAGA style. Whenever i face this kind of play i lose to HORRIBLE players because you simply cannot be aggressive, drops get shut down by a billion lings everywhere so you have to turtle and let the zerg take the map in which case you'll get outmacroed... Hard to tell what exactly was your problem without replay, but as a general tip you want to get a fast third since they can't really pressure you. You may also switch to pure bio against this style. Provide replays for further help. pure bio gets ridiculously raped by this and they add in infestors as soon as they get their 3rd going. taking a fast third is out of the question since they just a-move 100 speedlings and rape everything you have if you try it. This is vs top masters and GM's although i lose vs mid-masters who uses this kind of style I actually have a lot of trouble, personally, fighting against Infestors using only bio units. I usually find myself needing Tanks (with their superior range) or Ghosts (for snipe and EMP) to protect my marines and any marauders I might have from the Infestors, since Fungal Growth is a fairly powerful spell. I view Infestors as somewhat analogous to banelings-- bad against tanks, good against marines, burst rather than sustained damage. Obviously, there are differences, but I've been OK using marine/tank against ling/infestor. One Pro Tip is to get a quick +1 vehicle weapons so your tanks 1-shot the zerglings. This is enormously helpful. Make sure to stay on the ball with your double infantry upgrades, too, since you know the zerg player's doing the same thing. Yeah i always go for a quick double ebay and armory to get 3-3 and +1 asap. My ghost usage is bad though ill admit. Im not exactly sure how/when to switch into ghost production
Traditionally I only start making ghosts once I see more than like 8 infestors-- if he's really massing them, I make ghosts. I also make ghosts when I see him going for a greater spire, both for extra emps to defend my vikings from fungal growth, and for snipes to support them against the broodlords. I have some difficulty snipe-spamming against broodlords, so I also use vikings.
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Is it possible to defend a no-scout proxy 2 gate (say, on shattered temple) if you don't wall off?
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On November 19 2011 10:31 upperbound wrote:
Is it possible to defend a no-scout proxy 2 gate (say, on shattered temple) if you don't wall off?
yes. You would need to have a good simcity. You should rally your 13th scv out to scout and if you do not see any buildings, throw up 1 bunker in your mineral line and should be fine
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EPT
