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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On October 26 2011 16:03 AeroEffect wrote:
im going to be very blunt about what I need help with: TvZ. I can win a fucking TvZ game to save my life. ever. And none of my friends want to help. They just say the same shit. I just dont know what to do. I was top 8 in plat earlier and then I played 5 zergs and lost too all of them. If nobody can help, its w/e. Im just sick of playing against zerg right now.
I'll be glad to help! However, given the information available, it will be very difficult for me to do so. I'd recommend you upload a replay here, and I'll take a look and offer some advice via video, as I do with most people in this thread. Try to keep your chin up-- keep on trying and don't give up. Every professional has a stumbling block somewhere in his career, and if you want to become the first African American Pro ScII player, you will have many challenges harder than this along the way.
Post a replay and I'll take a look.
On October 26 2011 16:34 Grndr101 wrote:
Hello everyone.
So I'm pretty much struggling tvp, and hearing Destiny troll about how terrans never use certain units got me to play around with the raven and hunter seeker missile in the unit terster.
I got an army for t of 10 ravens, 5 vikings and the rest MMM. (both armies were about 120 supply, which seemed appropriate)
For the protoss I went for a shitton of chargelots, a little less stalkers, 4 colossi and 5 archons(I figured I better take archons instead of templar since it would be harder to simmulate storm and feedback micro).
Anyway what I'm trying to say is 10 HSM can decimate a protoss deathball and the reaction time it would take for the protoss to split before the HSM's hit is pretty thin(i know speculation). After the HSM MMMV cleaned up the rest.
Now I KNOW this doesn't mean anything, but HSM seems like a good alternative to emp. And because of the gas cost (and since you're not spending your gas anyway in tvp), it would seem much better than MMMGV, leaving more minerals for MM and rax.
tl;dr
Has anyone tried HSM play in tvp? Do you actually have the time to set up a good raven contingent in a usual game?
Would love some replays or BO's. I will probably test this out on my own, but I'd love to not have to start from scratch.
I haven't seen a lot of HSM use in TvP, nor have I used it much, due to the gas investment combined with the need for tech lab starports. That said, I've seen raven play using PDDs to fight against stalkers. HSM is a great spell, but its short range exposes ravens to feedbacks-- sort of the reverse of the usual, which is the high-range EMP outranging feedback.
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On October 26 2011 16:37 Blazinghand wrote:
I haven't seen a lot of HSM use in TvP, nor have I used it much, due to the gas investment combined with the need for tech lab starports. That said, I've seen raven play using PDDs to fight against stalkers. HSM is a great spell, but its short range exposes ravens to feedbacks-- sort of the reverse of the usual, which is the high-range EMP outranging feedback.
The feedback thing isn't much of an issue cause you could just HSM your marine or something and run it to their army
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Ive been watching Goody and his mecha play. Now i cant wait for HoTS so i can lay down some REAL mech ownaj.
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On October 26 2011 20:38 Twistacles wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 16:37 Blazinghand wrote:
I haven't seen a lot of HSM use in TvP, nor have I used it much, due to the gas investment combined with the need for tech lab starports. That said, I've seen raven play using PDDs to fight against stalkers. HSM is a great spell, but its short range exposes ravens to feedbacks-- sort of the reverse of the usual, which is the high-range EMP outranging feedback. The feedback thing isn't much of an issue cause you could just HSM your marine or something and run it to their army
Tried this and even if there aren't any colossi on the field the marine/marauder gets gunned down before reaching a point where the splash does any damage at all.
Tried splitting for toss and it does reduce the damage to an extent(although it does wreck colossi and zealot masses even with split), but the great thing about toss deathballs is, if it is split it's much less scary.
Also tried out feedback, and it does wreck the ravens. If he goes the templar route I guess the sensible thing to do would be to get a couple of ghosts out first, for emping the templar.(ie: lure the templar with the ravens and snipe/emp with the ghosts.
Guess this would be 4 base play though.
Played some games but didn't get to use my ravens, the crucial timing gas-wise seems to be 3base. There you have to decide to either get ghosts out or ravens(2port seems reasonable), but if he's going heavy templar you should know by then.
If this is going to work I'll need to catch the templar out of position to beat the deathball, but it doesn't seem impossible.
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Some questions..
If I want to do a one rax expand against terran, how do I deal with a 1-1-1 build.
OR is it possible to go 1-1-1 get siege tech and be able to expand in a reasonable amount of time??
If I go barracks factory (reactor making hellions) and expand what should I transition to against a zerg. If they decide to go mutas or roach?
I am a gold level player and just got three different builds from watching pros and trying to get good at each so I can play against each race effectively.
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I need some new TvZ builds badly other than the elevator shit.
2 rax is so dead its not even funny. Hellions openings seem to be solved by the Z.
Halp. 
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On October 27 2011 15:42 XXXSmOke wrote:I need some new TvZ builds badly other than the elevator shit. 2 rax is so dead its not even funny. Hellions openings seem to be solved by the Z. Halp.
2 Rax ain't dead dog. People just stopped using it (only god knows why). It still crushes nerds all day when executed really well. It still has the opportunity to outright win the game for you if the zerg makes any micro mistake whatsoever. It comes at extremely little risk to your situation, one of the major downsides being not having map control for a little while. Of course, hellion transitions always help here.
Don't discount the 2rax, it's freaking scary. (from a zerg).
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On August 06 2011 05:02 bunnymuncher wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2011 04:54 ticktack wrote:
How do I deal with zergs who go Destiny-style infestor play? When they get the first few infestors out, I feel as if I can't push out and be aggressive anymore because he has too many lings and fungals to crush my push. The zerg will then proceed to make a ton more infestors and take the whole map. Then I lose.
Should I just turtle up and drop everywhere until I get 200/200 and 3/3 upgraded units? good zergs put spines on their expansions so sometimes this doesn't seem a good idea. Zergs are very squishy while they are transitioning into infestors. If you scout a finished lair and an infestation pit going down then i would push out. Splitting up your marines works well against a low infestor count. One tip is to poke in/out with your marines IF YOU HAVE MEDIVACS. Let the infestors waste their energy. I aim to have a few seige tanks, decent amount of marines, and a few medivacs for this push. I've always loved fast medicavs.
I'd actually advise against pushing early. The Destiny style play has Zerg turtle a little longer than standard on 2 bases, using the extra minerals not spent on an earlier hatchery and investing it instead on early upgrades and extra lings. Any marine tank timing that isn't an all in before the 10-11 minute mark will get shut down pretty handily, and if not the number of lings are more than enough to stall until infestors come out. Pushing is fine but try not to commit too hard once you see infestors. Put more focus on expanding more aggressively than usual (zerg generally have a much harder time moving out of their base with infestors than with mutas) and try to hit zerg's econ with multiple drops.
Infestor play is usually followed by a very quick transition into hive tech, usually broodlords but ultras are becoming more popular. If your macro is as good or better than the zerg (remember infestor play doesn't allow for aggressive expanding early on) you should eventually be able to overwhelm him with ghosts marine tank medivac before then, and if not have enough ghosts/marauders accumulated in the late game to shut down his gas units.
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I have a few questions:
1. (TvT) How do you break Marine Tank lines, assuming you don't have that many tanks?
2. (TvP) How do you handle Chargelots, assuming they FFed the back of your army?
3. I almost 2Rax FE in every match, but I (usually) get killed by early rushes and cheeses. (Cannon rushes, 2gate zealots, etc.) What should I do if my expo's killed? Is it over for me?
4. Can someone give me a replay of a progamer doing a 2Rax FE?
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On October 27 2011 04:43 opdomo wrote:
Some questions..
If I want to do a one rax expand against terran, how do I deal with a 1-1-1 build.
OR is it possible to go 1-1-1 get siege tech and be able to expand in a reasonable amount of time??
If I go barracks factory (reactor making hellions) and expand what should I transition to against a zerg. If they decide to go mutas or roach?
I am a gold level player and just got three different builds from watching pros and trying to get good at each so I can play against each race effectively.
A good build to defend against the 111 is getting a reactor barracks before you expand. Get 1 marine, get a reactor core, and then expand while pumping marines. With the extra marines you have you should be able to have map control for a while and know when the 111 is coming (i'm going to assume marine/tank/medivac or viking push). If the opponent pushes out with two siege tanks you should have your own siege tank to ward off a slow push. If he pushes earlier you need to take your higher marine count and try and meet him before he sieges up, your increased marine count should be able to overwhelm him; don't be afraid to pull a couple scvs to help. Another thing to watch out for is early banshee. I'd recommend making an engineering bay around the 5:45 mark; it should be finished making right before you have energy for your third scan; if you see the starport tech lab or any fishy business that might suggest banshees make a couple of turrets around your base. Banshees themselves shouldnt be a problem with your number of marines (you're pumping off of reactor rax very early), detection is. Just a couple of turrets to give you vision of cloaked banshee should be fine.
You generally shouldn't be making a bunker with this build; if you scan and see 3 or maybe 2 rax, make a couple bunkers. Other than that you shouldn't need to rely on it.
For the tvz matchup just transition into tank marine. It works well against both roaches and mutas. Make 4-8 hellions, switch factory into tank production, make 2-3 more barracks and a starport, push at 10-11 minutes.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On October 26 2011 21:26 Grndr101 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 20:38 Twistacles wrote:On October 26 2011 16:37 Blazinghand wrote:
I haven't seen a lot of HSM use in TvP, nor have I used it much, due to the gas investment combined with the need for tech lab starports. That said, I've seen raven play using PDDs to fight against stalkers. HSM is a great spell, but its short range exposes ravens to feedbacks-- sort of the reverse of the usual, which is the high-range EMP outranging feedback. The feedback thing isn't much of an issue cause you could just HSM your marine or something and run it to their army Tried this and even if there aren't any colossi on the field the marine/marauder gets gunned down before reaching a point where the splash does any damage at all. Tried splitting for toss and it does reduce the damage to an extent(although it does wreck colossi and zealot masses even with split), but the great thing about toss deathballs is, if it is split it's much less scary. Also tried out feedback, and it does wreck the ravens. If he goes the templar route I guess the sensible thing to do would be to get a couple of ghosts out first, for emping the templar.(ie: lure the templar with the ravens and snipe/emp with the ghosts. Guess this would be 4 base play though. Played some games but didn't get to use my ravens, the crucial timing gas-wise seems to be 3base. There you have to decide to either get ghosts out or ravens(2port seems reasonable), but if he's going heavy templar you should know by then. If this is going to work I'll need to catch the templar out of position to beat the deathball, but it doesn't seem impossible.
Oh, definitely-- I think Ravens are an important part of the "ideal" TvP composition, as a supplement to ghosts. I'm just not sure that there's a lot of opportunities to drop 1k gas on fleet of 5 ravens in TvP, since I'm usually pumping a lot of ghosts, medivacs, vikings in the late game. That being said, there's a place for HSM, but it's not the Raven that's the problem-- it's getting them out safely.
On October 27 2011 15:42 XXXSmOke wrote:I need some new TvZ builds badly other than the elevator shit. 2 rax is so dead its not even funny. Hellions openings seem to be solved by the Z. Halp.
2 rax is still workable. Just pull more or fewer scvs. If you found 11/11 was straight-up winning before (without any sort of expo/economy transition), you can achieve the same timing by cutting scvs earlier, going for 9 depot 10/10. You'll have less economy, but a marine/scv/bunker attack that's just as strong. Alternatively, you could go for an "eco 2 rax", which would be 12/14 or 12/12 and be very cautious, or open reactor hellions (which Mvp did against NesTea) and either make a LOT of hellions or make just 2 and hold towers and deny creep spread, expanding and transitioning quickly.
There's also the 1 rax fast expand.
All things considered, TvZ isn't dead. I recommend you grind out reactor hellion expos against a zerg practice partner when you get the chance. Practice making just 2 hellions before the reverse swap, and also practice making a butt ton of hellions as Mvp does.
On October 27 2011 19:05 halpimcat wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2011 05:02 bunnymuncher wrote:On August 06 2011 04:54 ticktack wrote:
How do I deal with zergs who go Destiny-style infestor play? When they get the first few infestors out, I feel as if I can't push out and be aggressive anymore because he has too many lings and fungals to crush my push. The zerg will then proceed to make a ton more infestors and take the whole map. Then I lose.
Should I just turtle up and drop everywhere until I get 200/200 and 3/3 upgraded units? good zergs put spines on their expansions so sometimes this doesn't seem a good idea. Zergs are very squishy while they are transitioning into infestors. If you scout a finished lair and an infestation pit going down then i would push out. Splitting up your marines works well against a low infestor count. One tip is to poke in/out with your marines IF YOU HAVE MEDIVACS. Let the infestors waste their energy. I aim to have a few seige tanks, decent amount of marines, and a few medivacs for this push. I've always loved fast medicavs. I'd actually advise against pushing early. The Destiny style play has Zerg turtle a little longer than standard on 2 bases, using the extra minerals not spent on an earlier hatchery and investing it instead on early upgrades and extra lings. Any marine tank timing that isn't an all in before the 10-11 minute mark will get shut down pretty handily, and if not the number of lings are more than enough to stall until infestors come out. Pushing is fine but try not to commit too hard once you see infestors. Put more focus on expanding more aggressively than usual (zerg generally have a much harder time moving out of their base with infestors than with mutas) and try to hit zerg's econ with multiple drops. Infestor play is usually followed by a very quick transition into hive tech, usually broodlords but ultras are becoming more popular. If your macro is as good or better than the zerg (remember infestor play doesn't allow for aggressive expanding early on) you should eventually be able to overwhelm him with ghosts marine tank medivac before then, and if not have enough ghosts/marauders accumulated in the late game to shut down his gas units.
That guy's post is nearly 3 months old... that being said, you make good points. Don't rush an infestor player; infestors are ground-holding units and are hard to deal with before ghosts or high tank counts. Use drops and expand aggressively.
On October 27 2011 19:18 neozxa wrote:
I have a few questions:
1. (TvT) How do you break Marine Tank lines, assuming you don't have that many tanks?
2. (TvP) How do you handle Chargelots, assuming they FFed the back of your army?
3. I almost 2Rax FE in every match, but I (usually) get killed by early rushes and cheeses. (Cannon rushes, 2gate zealots, etc.) What should I do if my expo's killed? Is it over for me?
4. Can someone give me a replay of a progamer doing a 2Rax FE?
1) Breaking a tank line is playing by his rules; drop him instead, or use vikings to gain spotting advantage so he can't shoot back.
2) you're asking about being on a lee shore in a hurricane; isntead, get in the harbor first or leave the area. Use medivacs to hop back, or just kite as well as you can... but ideally dont' get FFed like that and try to have ghosts against a twilight-tech protoss.
3) If you're being rushed, be terran and fly into the main 1 base with 2 mules > 1 base
4) + Show Spoiler +
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On October 27 2011 19:23 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 19:05 halpimcat wrote:
I'd actually advise against pushing early. The Destiny style play has Zerg turtle a little longer than standard on 2 bases, using the extra minerals not spent on an earlier hatchery and investing it instead on early upgrades and extra lings. Any marine tank timing that isn't an all in before the 10-11 minute mark will get shut down pretty handily, and if not the number of lings are more than enough to stall until infestors come out. Pushing is fine but try not to commit too hard once you see infestors. Put more focus on expanding more aggressively than usual (zerg generally have a much harder time moving out of their base with infestors than with mutas) and try to hit zerg's econ with multiple drops.
Infestor play is usually followed by a very quick transition into hive tech, usually broodlords but ultras are becoming more popular. If your macro is as good or better than the zerg (remember infestor play doesn't allow for aggressive expanding early on) you should eventually be able to overwhelm him with ghosts marine tank medivac before then, and if not have enough ghosts/marauders accumulated in the late game to shut down his gas units. That guy's post is nearly 3 months old... that being said, you make good points. Don't rush an infestor player; infestors are ground-holding units and are hard to deal with before ghosts or high tank counts. Use drops and expand aggressively.
Lawl I had no idea. I could've sworn I was on the most recent page when I just decided to respond to whatever I saw. It's late and I must be seeing things.
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I got in Silver league :D :D :D :D :D :D
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I am not good on my micro tvz and i don't know how to improve it - i feel its causing me losses. I get picked apart even when I feel my macro is pretty good.
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Basically I went for a cc first into a 4 barracks push, i came out ahead (kinda)- but i see most grandmasters just win.
but then I went to go kill creep and i lose my army. oh OK, ill just defend and get another, then I am unable to move out and I feel that if I had good micro i would win. how can i use macro to my advantage as terran???(v zerg)
e; didn't realize replay wasn't working re upload: http://drop.sc/49872
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Did you drop harass either with marines or with Hellions? Did you expand more than once? What unit comp did you have? What were you hit with?
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Guys.. I always 2 rax reactor first conc shell pressure in TvP, which works wonders in case the Toss expands...
If he doesnt, should I go pressure?? Should I get my exp? Make more rax?
Since I always go pressure and bring 2 scvs with me (in case I had no chance to scout his exp and if its there, bunkers are coming up) if there is no exp I just build a rax with one scv and float it to scout toss' 1-base tech...
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How should I deal with a Protoss as terran doing some sort of fast expand, and turtling with sentries until they tech to Collosi? From there they seem to just crush me with a 2-3 collosi push, and I can't seem to find a way to either punish that or just a good way to deal with it. Any help? I usually do (depending on map) a 2rax, first rax reactor second rax tech lab and push out with 1 marauder, and I expand behind that. Is that still effective to do? And in what situations? Any help appreciated...really having trouble with toss atm.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On October 28 2011 22:40 xTrim wrote:
Guys.. I always 2 rax reactor first conc shell pressure in TvP, which works wonders in case the Toss expands...
If he doesnt, should I go pressure?? Should I get my exp? Make more rax?
Since I always go pressure and bring 2 scvs with me (in case I had no chance to scout his exp and if its there, bunkers are coming up) if there is no exp I just build a rax with one scv and float it to scout toss' 1-base tech...
Against a 1-basing protoss, you need to be very careful. There's a variety of 1 base attacks protoss can make, but if he's not straight-up 4-gating you (which you'd know pretty fast), you're probably dealing with a protoss tech all-in. Without any further information, You'll want to bunker the top of your ramp, take your 2nd gas, make an engineering bay and a turret. Once you have a starport you're safe from tech allins.
On October 29 2011 01:13 spaZzNx-` wrote:
How should I deal with a Protoss as terran doing some sort of fast expand, and turtling with sentries until they tech to Collosi? From there they seem to just crush me with a 2-3 collosi push, and I can't seem to find a way to either punish that or just a good way to deal with it. Any help? I usually do (depending on map) a 2rax, first rax reactor second rax tech lab and push out with 1 marauder, and I expand behind that. Is that still effective to do? And in what situations? Any help appreciated...really having trouble with toss atm.
Against a 2-base protoss that goes for colossus, you'll want to make vikings for battle and use medivacs for map control to prevent him from attacking. Depending on how he expands and how you expanded, there might be some earlier timings as well, but I'd have to see a replay to be sure.
Don't try to attack into a turtled-up sentry-making protoss, as a general rule though. Drops and harass is probably how you'll have to do it.
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hi, got a question here:
TvP cross posi on temple: i open with 12 rax 14 gas ---> rine, tlab,reaper,concussive while keeping my scv in toss base. I see that he spent 1 chrono on nexus has 2 gas and chronos stalker and cyber. probecount looks decent.
i put a bunker at front and threw down a cc inbase
i made him chase my scouting scv, hop in my reaper on the other side and see a fast robo(with chrono) and no second gate
how should i react at this point? or was the fast cc already a bad idea? is there a timing i can use to just kill him? do i need to go rax heavy or should i tech?
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EPT
