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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On October 29 2011 05:38 alpenrahm wrote:
hi, got a question here:
TvP cross posi on temple: i open with 12 rax 14 gas ---> rine, tlab,reaper,concussive while keeping my scv in toss base. I see that he spent 1 chrono on nexus has 2 gas and chronos stalker and cyber. probecount looks decent.
i put a bunker at front and threw down a cc inbase
i made him chase my scouting scv, hop in my reaper on the other side and see a fast robo(with chrono) and no second gate
how should i react at this point? or was the fast cc already a bad idea? is there a timing i can use to just kill him? do i need to go rax heavy or should i tech?
With such incomplete scouting information, you can't really do anything. 1 rax Fe is fine, but you'll need to stay in your base with bunkers until you're sure what's going on.
I'd probably need timings on that scouting information to know what's going on, as well as how much energy he has stored on the nexus, where and how many pylons he has, and his assimilator timing which you can tell by how much gas he's mined out of each assimilator (check by clicking on it).
Given what you've told me, Here are my thoughts:
He's either all in with immortals / warp prism play, or he's all in with colossus, or he's all in with blink play and wants a robo or prism to spot the high-ground, or he's using an exceedingly safe expansion (gate robo gate expo) or an exceedingly tech-ey expansion (gate robo expo).
There's some possibility of robo/dt play or other weirdness, but all that this tells you so far is that he's not 4gating you and he's probably not VR allinning you (if he is, he's doing so exceedingly poorly).
Here's what a full scout should look for and what it means:
If he's banking a lot of chrono boost, he's probably all in. Any build that fast expands has most of its chrono boost spent fairly quickly on probes, since the Protoss wants to recover quickly.
If he's not banking a lot of chrono boost, he might still be all in. DT and warp prism based builds (or DT/prism based builds), as well as some blink play, either doesn't use much chrono boost or spends most of it quickly.
A 1 rax reaper expo is entirely acceptable. You need to continue to scout and build as many rax as you can to produce marines. Use a scan, a reaper or an scv to scout for an expo, and if you don't see one, you'll know he's all in. Continue to build up to 3 bunkers if you're feeling particularly worried about some enormous immortal all-in, but don't cut infrastructure, marines, or scvs to do so.
Assuming you fail to actually scout what he's doing, you'll need anti-colossus, anti-dt, anti-drop, anti-air, and anti-immortal defenses. Against a 1-base colossus attack without range, a turret or a marauder in a bunker is fine. Against DTs, a turret at your choke is fine, but try to build it so it covers part of your mineral line as well. Against drops, you just need lots of units, and eventually vikings. etc etc.
Basically, if you're expanding quickly and cutting 2.5 marines (tech lab, reaper) it needs to be worth it. Given that you went for marauders after the initial reaper, your build is vulnerable to void ray attacks and the like.
Most important is to scout for expo, then to scout for how he's using his resources.
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hi all,
Ever since the ultra buff, a lot of zerg players have been opting for a super fast ultra tech, often skipping infestors/mutas entirely. I'm having a lot of problems dealing with an ultra ball midgame. I thought tanks countered them fairly well, but they're getting decimated. Help?
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On October 29 2011 06:25 halpimcat wrote:
hi all,
Ever since the ultra buff, a lot of zerg players have been opting for a super fast ultra tech, often skipping infestors/mutas entirely. I'm having a lot of problems dealing with an ultra ball midgame. I thought tanks countered them fairly well, but they're getting decimated. Help?
Zerg players who cut mutas and infestors from their build make themselves extremely vulnerable to dropship play. I'd have to see a replay to be sure, but here are some general thoughts:
If zerg is on 2 bases, he will not easily be able to secure a third base without map control.
If he's on more than 2 bases, his ling/bane army can't be everywhere at once and can't realistically stop multi-pronged marine drops since he has very little that shoots up.
If he doesn't take a 3rd base and a 4th base, he won't be able to produce ultras in large numbers.
Against ultralisks, Siege Tanks lose their greatest strength: The ability to splash down multiple targets. Ultralisk are too large to be hit by splash. Traditionally, one fights ultras using Marauders (bonus vs armored) or ghosts (snipe spam). I use Marauders.
As a general rule, a zerg player who doesn't make any lair tech units deserves to be horribly abused by marine dropship play until he gets some lair tech units out though-- try not to let him tech straight to ultras so easily.
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So, we've all seen Day9 Daily 365, in which he talks about IMMVPs 2 fact reactor hellion into 2 fac tank 2 reactorrax marine style.
I'm looking for similar builds for tvp and tvt. Liquipedia seems outdated. Who could help me  ?
Ty!
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Hi, I'm a poor starcraft player trying to better understand the game so I can improve. Whew, that's out of the way. My question is about trying to understand MVP's build vs ToodMing at Blizzcon in Game 1 of their set on Xel'Naga Caverns (Replay Here). I'm looking at this game because it was recently featured in Day9 Daily : 365 as an interesting strategy.
+ Show Spoiler +In this game, MVP does 12rax, 13 gas > feints a bunker rush ->reactor hellion + C.C > 2x reactored hellion > marine + 2x factory tank. He wins rather handily.
As a new and rather not so hot player, I'm trying to follow the advice posted here and given by Mr. Plott, and that is to improve my ability to make scv's constantly, make depots, and be producing out of my structures, aka, macro better. Obviously, I don't do this perfectly, or I wouldn't be at gold level, but I watched MVP's replay, and he cuts or delays several scv's, gets supply blocked (~72 supply I think). When I tried this strategy in games, if I focus hard on not missing scv's or depots, I have trouble actually producing out of my structures. I just don't have the money. So I crunched some numbers, and I was somewhat surprised
+ Show Spoiler +
2x reactored hellion = 800 minerals per min (100/hellion, 30s build time)
SCV producton from 2 Orbitals = 353 minerals / min (2*50/17s build time * 60 s/min)
This generates 23 supply per min, requiring 288 minerals / min
The grand total is 1443 minerals / min, which is approximately the income you have from a saturated 2 base. But this strategy involves making these hellions well before his 2nd base is approaching saturation.
The transition out of quad hellion is just as expensive, so I never seem to get a 3rd CC. In the replay, MVP loses a bunch of his units to some roaches, so he gains some breathing room by not having to make depots, money he uses to build an ebay and turrets.
Obviously, if you lose a bunch of units when you fight, then you don't need to build depots, and your costs go down, but MVP is famous for not losing many units. My question is, while trying to improve my macro, is this an ok strat to keep focusing on and refining my mechanics? Should I focus on a more optimized build that doesn't require losing units or cutting scvs? Thanks for any help / advice.
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There's a build I have seen for the first time in tvt that left me wondering on how to defend.
The build was a gas-first double reactor with scv cutting. It got 2 medivacs dropping 8 hellions in my base when I had 1 raven, 1 tank, 1 hellion and a couple marines. Of course the raven could have been a banshee, or viking, but it seems to me that without the choke to help you you can't hold without opening reactor factory yourself. How would you go about that?
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I have a problem with one unit composition in TvP: Zealot/Archon/HT. I can handle colossi and air Protoss fine, just not this composition. What's the best composition to deal with that annoying chargelot/caster ball? Ghosts?
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Hi all,
I've finally figured out how to survive the TvP matchup into the lategame, but I'm having serious problems finishing them off. Whether or not I lose to the deathball is a matter of control and positioning, but often times when I do kill the deathball I still get raped by toss' instant remax. It isn't unusual for the protoss lategame to have 15+ gateways ready for the instant warp; should I be saving at least that many barracks up to reinforce as well?
And if you say yes to that that's fine (easy fix). I have another slightly more stressing problem. The toss lategame army is typically archons, colossus, ht, and the gateway mix. I can kill the first deathball fine, but the second army (after the instant remax) will typically be a chargelot archon compositon which absolutely demolishes my first army, since I was forced into making vikings (useless now) and all my emps were already used up in the first engagement. I can kill this composition if that was what the toss was gearing up for from the start, but it's the instant switch from a colossus ball that I can't beat. The problem gets even worse if he decides to add in 1-2 colossus after I stop vikings production (and lost them all) and catches me unawares. I've been trying to avoid the second army and snipe expansions as soon as I kill the first army, but the sheer power of zealot-archon and the speed it approaches me by leaves me at a loss.
Of course this last problem could be the result of me not making enough rax. I try, and often times fail, to have at least 10 rax by the late game ready to pump units. But any other hints and techniques I might have overlooked would definitely help.
My tvp has improved by leaps and bounds the past couple of weeks, but that doesn't mean I can actually beat them, just survive until the next set of challenges pop up. My winrate for october vs toss has been 22% so far. Honestly I feel like I'm playing a dated version of the game where whoever won the 200/200 battle just won the game. Now there's proper followups after that part of late game and I can't keep up.
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On October 30 2011 03:01 Grandpa_SC wrote:
Obviously, if you lose a bunch of units when you fight, then you don't need to build depots, and your costs go down, but MVP is famous for not losing many units. My question is, while trying to improve my macro, is this an ok strat to keep focusing on and refining my mechanics? Should I focus on a more optimized build that doesn't require losing units or cutting scvs? Thanks for any help / advice.
A good build will never be one that expects you to lose units, even if you have them "suicide" in game (scouting, harassing purposes). When making a build you want to base your order on best case scenarios, like never losing units. This way you won't run into problems like supply blocking yourself when your units actually survive. And I don't suggest cutting SCVs. Just focus on making scvs, keeping your money low, and being active with your units. If MVP's build has a little too much going on for you to be able to do that, you can try variations of the build, like skipping bunker pressure and just going straight to hellions.
On October 30 2011 09:21 dementrio wrote:
There's a build I have seen for the first time in tvt that left me wondering on how to defend.
The build was a gas-first double reactor with scv cutting. It got 2 medivacs dropping 8 hellions in my base when I had 1 raven, 1 tank, 1 hellion and a couple marines. Of course the raven could have been a banshee, or viking, but it seems to me that without the choke to help you you can't hold without opening reactor factory yourself. How would you go about that?
It sounds like a ridiculously cheesy build. If you pressured him in any way he probably would have died. Two tanks with marines and a medivac/viking would have killed it. If you scanned him and saw this 111 being unusually fast it should have made you even more wary and focus on defending. And going raven first is generally a bad idea imo. It's ridiculously expensive and it doesn't help against anything other than cloak banshee, which can be easily deterred with turret. And early game it' can't be used offensively, either.
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I have a question on the new Metalopolis that is in this season map pool. I open up a 1rax FE vs Zerg with a double 8 marine drop around 11 minutes with 1-1 marines. This usually works versus many zergs but I've been wondering if I shouldn't be doing that on this map. My current problem is the zerg usually expands away from me, and just gets ahead in econ and becomes somewhat unstoppable. Also I find it very hard to do a marine/tank push because of easy creep spread on this map, especially close air where they can spread creep down that single lane.
One idea I had was opening reactor/hellion expand, seeing as the natural is very open. So I ask you all, what do you usually do on this map? Any tips or tricks?
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On October 30 2011 20:41 iZenn wrote:
I have a question on the new Metalopolis that is in this season map pool. I open up a 1rax FE vs Zerg with a double 8 marine drop around 11 minutes with 1-1 marines. This usually works versus many zergs but I've been wondering if I shouldn't be doing that on this map. My current problem is the zerg usually expands away from me, and just gets ahead in econ and becomes somewhat unstoppable. Also I find it very hard to do a marine/tank push because of easy creep spread on this map, especially close air where they can spread creep down that single lane.
One idea I had was opening reactor/hellion expand, seeing as the natural is very open. So I ask you all, what do you usually do on this map? Any tips or tricks?
Going 1 Rax into FE is pretty risky on a Map with an open natural like Metalopolis - just way too much space to cover. U are vulnerabel to counter- attacks and baneling or roach all- ins thus u cant put up alot of pressure to his front door and the zerg is free to do whatever he likes. Better open with hellions on Maps like Meta or transition into mass rax after ur fe and make a timing
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On October 30 2011 20:31 halpimcat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 09:21 dementrio wrote:
There's a build I have seen for the first time in tvt that left me wondering on how to defend.
The build was a gas-first double reactor with scv cutting. It got 2 medivacs dropping 8 hellions in my base when I had 1 raven, 1 tank, 1 hellion and a couple marines. Of course the raven could have been a banshee, or viking, but it seems to me that without the choke to help you you can't hold without opening reactor factory yourself. How would you go about that? It sounds like a ridiculously cheesy build. If you pressured him in any way he probably would have died. Two tanks with marines and a medivac/viking would have killed it. If you scanned him and saw this 111 being unusually fast it should have made you even more wary and focus on defending. And going raven first is generally a bad idea imo. It's ridiculously expensive and it doesn't help against anything other than cloak banshee, which can be easily deterred with turret. And early game it' can't be used offensively, either.
He gets all that stuff much quicker than you can get two tanks. It's a rush, makes no sense to think "I should pressure". Focus on defense Ok. How? that was my question
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On October 30 2011 21:34 dementrio wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 20:31 halpimcat wrote:On October 30 2011 09:21 dementrio wrote:
There's a build I have seen for the first time in tvt that left me wondering on how to defend.
The build was a gas-first double reactor with scv cutting. It got 2 medivacs dropping 8 hellions in my base when I had 1 raven, 1 tank, 1 hellion and a couple marines. Of course the raven could have been a banshee, or viking, but it seems to me that without the choke to help you you can't hold without opening reactor factory yourself. How would you go about that? It sounds like a ridiculously cheesy build. If you pressured him in any way he probably would have died. Two tanks with marines and a medivac/viking would have killed it. If you scanned him and saw this 111 being unusually fast it should have made you even more wary and focus on defending. And going raven first is generally a bad idea imo. It's ridiculously expensive and it doesn't help against anything other than cloak banshee, which can be easily deterred with turret. And early game it' can't be used offensively, either. He gets all that stuff much quicker than you can get two tanks. It's a rush, makes no sense to think "I should pressure". Focus on defense Ok. How? that was my question
I'd like to help you out. However, without timings and other specific information, I can't offer super useful advice. If you post up a replay with this build I'd be glad to break it down though.
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Because I'm having trouble with protoss I wanted to learn a new build this weekend. Does anyone have a nice build that allows for good expo opportunities? I'm so scared of toss. Early game they have their heavy 4gate or 3gate robo all in.
I know the 2rax 3 bunkers FE is an okay build. But it leaves me with not enough units to be honest. So a good build would be very welcome if someone can help me out.
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On October 31 2011 03:54 KenDM wrote:
Because I'm having trouble with protoss I wanted to learn a new build this weekend. Does anyone have a nice build that allows for good expo opportunities? I'm so scared of toss. Early game they have their heavy 4gate or 3gate robo all in.
I know the 2rax 3 bunkers FE is an okay build. But it leaves me with not enough units to be honest. So a good build would be very welcome if someone can help me out.
You can actually survive both early attacks going 1rax expo. Just make sure you have scvs repairing those bunkers.
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1 rax expo? Are you serious? I'd get raped? :O Can you post a replay with that? :O How many bunkers and stuff?
Damn it, 1 rax expo sounds so easy and powerful, but it does sound weak to a 4gate to be honest... How to know how many SCV's to pull from the mineral line to repair Bunkers? How many SCV's per bunker?
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On October 31 2011 04:58 KenDM wrote:
1 rax expo? Are you serious? I'd get raped? :O Can you post a replay with that? :O How many bunkers and stuff?
Damn it, 1 rax expo sounds so easy and powerful, but it does sound weak to a 4gate to be honest... How to know how many SCV's to pull from the mineral line to repair Bunkers? How many SCV's per bunker?
1 rax expo can hold almost anything, as long as you pay attention to the warning signs. A good scouting technique is pushing up the toss ramp with 1-2 scvs, 1 marine, and 1-2 marauders w/ concussive ASAP (you'll be building your expo at this time too). Attacking and coming out ahead takes a bit of micro, scoot n shoot, and focus firing, preferably the more expensive stalkers and sentries. While doing the attack, pay attention to: 1. if he has an expo, 2. what his overall composition is, 3. how much gas he has, 4. what his buildings are, 5. nexus energy. If you don't see an expo by your push you should already be putting at least a bunker up in your base. If he has few units (maybe only a stalker and a sentry) the warning signs come out for some hardcore tech, either voids or dts. If you see 4 gate or 3 gate/robo, you know what to expect. If you're still not sure what he's going and are afraid of a timing push, another big indicator of a timing push is the toss aggressively taking the xelnaga towers. If he does that wit more that 1 stalker and/or if you see a probe with his army, immediately drop 3-4 bunkers in your base.
you want to position your bunkers so that as many scvs can repair as possible, and you want to be ready with your scvs BEFORE the toss tries to push. Once you see the xel'naga towers go black, immediately position your scvs IN FRONT of the bunkers. This will give te zealots a harder time getting to the bunker.
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On October 31 2011 06:12 halpimcat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2011 04:58 KenDM wrote:
1 rax expo? Are you serious? I'd get raped? :O Can you post a replay with that? :O How many bunkers and stuff?
Damn it, 1 rax expo sounds so easy and powerful, but it does sound weak to a 4gate to be honest... How to know how many SCV's to pull from the mineral line to repair Bunkers? How many SCV's per bunker? you want to position your bunkers so that as many scvs can repair as possible, and you want to be ready with your scvs BEFORE the toss tries to push. Once you see the xel'naga towers go black, immediately position your scvs IN FRONT of the bunkers. This will give te zealots a harder time getting to the bunker.
Bunker placement is based off of the type of 4 gate you are dealing with. If he takes both gasses, it is likely to be a sentry heavy 4gate that uses forcefields to deny repairing. In this case, you want maximum surface area around each of the bunkers so he has to blow more ff's to stop the repairing.
Also, you want the battle to be taking place as far away from your ramp as possible, so that he doesn't block reinforcements.
If he only took 1 gas, it is likely a zealot/stalker heavy build, and you want the bunkers close together and closer to your command center so that your scvs can quickly move to repair.
In both scenarios you want your scvs at your natural to be on a hotkey so you can respond instantly with a repair.
Having a marine outside the front of your nat will help you see when the army is coming so you can pull scvs.
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On October 30 2011 03:01 Grandpa_SC wrote:Hi, I'm a poor starcraft player trying to better understand the game so I can improve. Whew, that's out of the way. My question is about trying to understand MVP's build vs ToodMing at Blizzcon in Game 1 of their set on Xel'Naga Caverns ( Replay Here). I'm looking at this game because it was recently featured in Day9 Daily : 365 as an interesting strategy. + Show Spoiler +In this game, MVP does 12rax, 13 gas > feints a bunker rush ->reactor hellion + C.C > 2x reactored hellion > marine + 2x factory tank. He wins rather handily. As a new and rather not so hot player, I'm trying to follow the advice posted here and given by Mr. Plott, and that is to improve my ability to make scv's constantly, make depots, and be producing out of my structures, aka, macro better. Obviously, I don't do this perfectly, or I wouldn't be at gold level, but I watched MVP's replay, and he cuts or delays several scv's, gets supply blocked (~72 supply I think). When I tried this strategy in games, if I focus hard on not missing scv's or depots, I have trouble actually producing out of my structures. I just don't have the money. So I crunched some numbers, and I was somewhat surprised + Show Spoiler +
2x reactored hellion = 800 minerals per min (100/hellion, 30s build time)
SCV producton from 2 Orbitals = 353 minerals / min (2*50/17s build time * 60 s/min)
This generates 23 supply per min, requiring 288 minerals / min
The grand total is 1443 minerals / min, which is approximately the income you have from a saturated 2 base. But this strategy involves making these hellions well before his 2nd base is approaching saturation.
The transition out of quad hellion is just as expensive, so I never seem to get a 3rd CC. In the replay, MVP loses a bunch of his units to some roaches, so he gains some breathing room by not having to make depots, money he uses to build an ebay and turrets.
Obviously, if you lose a bunch of units when you fight, then you don't need to build depots, and your costs go down, but MVP is famous for not losing many units. My question is, while trying to improve my macro, is this an ok strat to keep focusing on and refining my mechanics? Should I focus on a more optimized build that doesn't require losing units or cutting scvs? Thanks for any help / advice.
pros will cut workers in order to squeeze out a few units in order to hit very specific timings. at the gold level you should not be worrying about timings and especially not cutting workers.
also don't worry too much about super optimized builds. the most important thing is constant workers, no supply blocks and low money (no queuing). If you cant quite keep all your buildings active 100% of the time its not a huge deal.
Up until ~diamond you can just feel out builds. know generally what kinda units you want and when you wanna get upgrades and tweak it as you ladder.
i would recommend against hellion openers just because they are so apm intensive they will most likely screw up your build. I would just work on a basic 1/2 rax FE into 3 barracks, factory, starport marine tank medivac push with stim seige and combat shield.
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Hey, I'm a zerg player switching to terran and I'm having a lot of trouble building the right amount of production facilities. I think I read somewhere that each mining base supports 4, but I'm never really sure when the right time is to start adding on more. Should I be getting reactors on my barracks, or does this delay production time too much? When is a good time to start upgrading?
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EPT
