EPTThe Terran Help Me Thread - Page 454
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | ||
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PeterHuynh
United States151 Posts
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ghostH27
15 Posts
On February 19 2013 10:00 DBS wrote: In Bio-mech vs Bio-mech it doesn't see much use because its bad vs. marines (no bonus damage). It is obviously not included in mech because it isn't mech and would require seperate upgrades. However, it is very important to have a good marauder count when playing w/ bio-mech vs mech because they are good vs tanks. tl;dr: It isn't bad in biomech vs. mech but otherwise it is. Thank you. | ||
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Willzzz
United Kingdom774 Posts
On February 20 2013 08:58 dynwar7 wrote: Ah, so you prefer to use minimap clicks instead of hotkeying drops? I guess its personal preference  Or you could do both  | ||
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SHODAN
United Kingdom1060 Posts
On February 05 2013 01:42 TheDwf wrote: With mech I always or very often get an early Raven if I can rule out 2-bases Roach agression; this Raven is needed later to prevent Tanks from being destroyed at minimal cost by burrowed Roaches/Infestors play, and I also use it to harass a bit: when this Raven has 100 energy I queue 2 Autoturrets behind a mineral line while attacking with Hellions and one Banshee at front. Not super deadly but it feels good to have the upper hand in the “attention war” for once since you have to micro only in one place while Zerg has to manage two. With Marines/Tanks I'm not as much convinced; the bio infrastructure (add-ons and upgrades) is as gas-intensive as the mech one, but I feel reaching 2/2 as soon as possible is more important with Marines/Tanks since 2/2 Zerglings slaughter 1/1 Marines while mech upgrades are less critical against Roaches (Tank count/position can compensate). Making a Raven delays bio upgrades and does not add as much: while IT engagements (Zerg throwing some eggs to absorb Tank damage before charging) are annoying, you can't lose all your troops because 7-8 Infestors shower your army with IT eggs; that being said, being caught unsieged because a burrowed Infestor sees all your movements is super annoying so a Raven can justify itself regarding this. Quad Autoturrets walls are very nice indeed, but once again I feel mech can better capitalize on this tactical possibility since you will likely face Roaches, and Autoturrets walls do better against short-ranged Roaches prone to overkill than against the stupidly fast (which means that most of the time you have to pre-cast the Autoturrets) and melee Speedlings. Ravens do not save as many Scans as you would think since you still have to scan ahead to see if Zerg is ready to charge as soon as you march on creep; plus Raven is 2.25 movement speed while stimmed Marines have 3.375, so using a Raven to clear creep forward is a bit impractical, not to mention the issues with protecting the Raven. I suppose you saw what happened in GuMiho vs Sniper, Neo Planet S, Code S RO32: GuMiho tries to clear creep with Marines + his Raven, Mutalisks immediately sniff fresh meat, come and snipe it. On top of the gas/infrastructure issue, the other problem with Ravens in Marines/Tanks play is that you cannot be sure to what extent they will be useful as some Zergs love Burrow tricks while others never use it; for instance in Baby/TY vs Action, Akilon Flats, SPL KT Rolster vs Team 8, Baby/TY's bio infrastructure was quite delayed by two Banshees + Ravens, though it did not matter in this game because his opponent's build order was not agressive and had late upgrades too. Still, the Raven did not add much: the two PDDs in the first main battle were undoubtedly nice, but Baby/TY was still forced to use several Scans to check Action's troops/reinforcements at his fourth, no Burrow play was used, etc. PDD does give extra tactical possibilities but they remain situational, depending on Overlord/creep spread and the map layout. An example of such a tactic can be found in SuperNova vs Killer, Daybreak, IEM Cologne VII: SuperNova launched a Banshee attack (he was playing mech) to snipe tech buildings in Killer's main, and PDD allowed his Banshees to have free reign against Spores/Queens' attacks. About build orders, I feel Hellions/Banshee(s) → third is the only one able to squeeze in a Raven without weighing too much on everything: basically since you use the 200 gas which were initially saved for Cloak, the choice comes down to Cloak vs Raven vs faster add-ons/upgrades. If you talk about Taeja's 1 rax double expand → 6 Hellions + bio infrastructure, Bomber's double expand → 2 Factories or the kind of double expand covered by Tanks / a single Banshee he played against Symbol @ IPL5 and IPL6 Qualifiers (Ohana), I'm afraid the Raven is once again too much of a liability gas-wise for the build order (again because of bio upgrades). Sorry if you meant other build orders, I did not know what exactly you referred to so I took the build orders they used in their RO32/recent matches. belated thank you for this. I have a word document dedicated to Dwf notes :p | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On February 17 2013 02:35 darkphantom wrote: no only reps so i can learn mech/see the builds etc :D You can see builds too on VODs though, as long as the Production tab is opened. when you say things like " Watch MMA vs Brave, Abyssal City..etc" , where can i actually find these VODs/Reps ? Depends on the source. In this case IPTL is an IGN event, and they upload VODs on their Youtube channel. On February 17 2013 03:43 Leagis wrote: I saw Flash doing several All-Ins from 3 Base e.g. vs. Life @mlg. He goes for 3 Bases and cut his upgrades after 2/2. On the first map, it was too messy to figure out a build order and the second map was way to greedy So I search a safety way to go for that 2/2 Push from 3 BasesAh yes. Don't remember exactly his series against Life but you can do that out of eco Hellions/Banshees (6/1) builds or greedier variants; alternatively you can try triple OC + Tanks openings à la Bomber, though they're questionable (see answer to IIIH below). Check his series against Stephano @ Lonestar Clash II and Bomber vs Symbol, Ohana and Daybreak, IPL6 Kor Qualifier. Bomber typically produces 15 Marines at once and does not intend to take a fourth while Flash's plan, from memory, is to go late fourth (e. g. Flash vs Revival, Ohana, SPL, and Flash vs Effort (?), Tal'darim, MvP) with 11-13 (not sure) Marines produced at once; basically greater emphasis on the pre-Broodlords timing than standard play, but not 100% all-in as Bomber's plan. On February 17 2013 04:14 darkphantom wrote: what is currently the standard build in TvZ ? hellion banshee ? and can i transition easily into mech from it ? If yes is there a good (not outdated) guide on it ? + is this guide good ? ( it's pretty old ) : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=308972 is there any parts that i should ignore ( don't follow ) in as they are not viable anymore ( eg: 2nd build order: reac helion ) Questions about standard play and mech transitions are answered in the OP. The ideal mech transition after Hellions/Banshees is third gas gas armory armory fact fact but it's obviously not possible against certain 2-bases openings from Zerg, so depending on what you scout you have to play something more modest i. e. getting earlier facts and/or skipping one armory. The guide was a valiant effort but from a quick read many things are just wrong/outdated. 2 fact BFH before third is bad, play Hellions/Banshees instead. On February 18 2013 22:12 llIH wrote: TheDwf: Can you give me a solid TvZ opener with CC first? As in getting siege tanks later. Do you recommend Mech or Bio vs Z when going tanks? (Tank+Marines or Tank + other mech units) Early Tanks are no good, but if you want to play this regardless go CC rax CC, wall natural with 3-4 rax (including the first one) depending on the width of the ramp, dual gas, fact, dual EB, bio tech, etc. To solve the total absence of map presence GuMiho makes one Hellion first when searching Siege and use it to scout Zerg's third. Watch GuMiho vs LosirA, Cloud Kingdom and Akilon Flats (done out of 2 rax in the latter but general order stands), Code S RO16; GuMiho vs Curious, Cloud Kingdom, RO16; Bomber vs DRG, Neo Planet S, Code S RO16. The latter shows the numerous problems of the build; you're hopelessly passive, so Zerg has full map control with creep everywhere and he can just backstab again and again and again using his superior mobility as soon as you move out; plus if Zerg has good creep spread (which should be the case since zero pressure/initiative = extra Queens are free to devote 100% of their energy to Tumors) you're virtually automatically 3-bases all-in on most maps because creep covers your fourth anyway. When going triple OC + early Tanks this way you transition into Marines/Tanks, mech is not at all interested in early Tanks. On February 19 2013 19:33 halpimcat wrote: What happened in this game? How should I have gone about it better? What happened is that Protoss was dumb enough to show you his 6g 40 seconds in advance in the Tower's sight yet you somehow failed to notice it, only starting Bunkers when he took the Tower after a short nap. Assuming a competent opponent you won't be blessed with as much time to prepare, so you should have used it to go 3 → 5 bunkers (+2 in front, the one you already have, then 2 behind; Daybreak's natural is awful so you don't have any room for more without feeding Sentries) while skipping reactor on rax since it takes 100 seconds for a reactor rax to produce as much as a naked rax, so if you're attacked before leaving the rax naked is better (and you badly need those extra Marines when he hits). Get SCVs in front (move them if he tries to snipe them with Stalkers before engaging) and on the sides of the Bunkers, not at the rear; this way Protoss has to spend more Forcefields and might block his own Zealots. Try to evacuate the Bunker shortly before it is destroyed, your Marines might appear behind the Forcefield on a lucky day depending if there is room or not. If you want to reliably scout 6/7g, scan his natural around 7'15 - 7'30; lack of units here (which means they're on the map), possible low Probe count and 0 gas should sound the alarm. Don't try to drop if you lift in your main and the attack is not fully stopped, because (a) Protoss might try to force his way up before the drop arrives and lacking 10 supply means death, (b) he can just warp 6 Zealots at home and leave them in autopilot while you have to micro in both screens, (c) a way to punish failed or semi-failed 6g is to overwhelm him with a critical mass of MMM before he gets extra tech, so you want to retain as much as possible. By the way on Daybreak you need a Marine patrolling at your third, or he can bypass the Tower sight and comes unseen from here. 100% Marines before Starport and getting add-ons only after starting it is fine, no need to change that. On February 19 2013 20:19 dynwar7 wrote: When you do drops especially 2x drops, do you use hotkeys? No, but it's up to you. | ||
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darkphantom
98 Posts
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SoulCapsule
France806 Posts
On February 22 2013 23:30 darkphantom wrote: when going mech sometimes ill have a lot off mineral excess... where should i spend those Add moaaaar CC and OC. | ||
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EyesOnMe
57 Posts
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halpimcat
215 Posts
On February 22 2013 22:58 TheDwf wrote: What happened is that Protoss was dumb enough to show you his 6g 40 seconds in advance in the Tower's sight yet you somehow failed to notice it, only starting Bunkers when he took the Tower after a short nap. Assuming a competent opponent you won't be blessed with as much time to prepare, so you should have used it to go 3 → 5 bunkers (+2 in front, the one you already have, then 2 behind; Daybreak's natural is awful so you don't have any room for more without feeding Sentries) while skipping reactor on rax since it takes 100 seconds for a reactor rax to produce as much as a naked rax, so if you're attacked before leaving the rax naked is better (and you badly need those extra Marines when he hits). Get SCVs in front (move them if he tries to snipe them with Stalkers before engaging) and on the sides of the Bunkers, not at the rear; this way Protoss has to spend more Forcefields and might block his own Zealots. Try to evacuate the Bunker shortly before it is destroyed, your Marines might appear behind the Forcefield on a lucky day depending if there is room or not. If you want to reliably scout 6/7g, scan his natural around 7'15 - 7'30; lack of units here (which means they're on the map), possible low Probe count and 0 gas should sound the alarm. Don't try to drop if you lift in your main and the attack is not fully stopped, because (a) Protoss might try to force his way up before the drop arrives and lacking 10 supply means death, (b) he can just warp 6 Zealots at home and leave them in autopilot while you have to micro in both screens, (c) a way to punish failed or semi-failed 6g is to overwhelm him with a critical mass of MMM before he gets extra tech, so you want to retain as much as possible. By the way on Daybreak you need a Marine patrolling at your third, or he can bypass the Tower sight and comes unseen from here. 100% Marines before Starport and getting add-ons only after starting it is fine, no need to change that. . So no marauders necessary to stop a 6 gate? Also a problem I have even when deflecting a two base push is losing a boatload of scvs. I might not even lose a couple bunkers; Protoss force fields the back of my bunkers so the repairing scvs in Front can't escape. He does this a couple times, I lose a bunch of scvs, and he goes home. Should I just carry on with regular 2 base aggression from there while trying to replenish my scv count? 1 more thing: could I have held that without scanning? | ||
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llIH
Norway2142 Posts
Early Tanks are no good, but if you want to play this regardless go CC rax CC, wall natural with 3-4 rax (including the first one) depending on the width of the ramp, dual gas, fact, dual EB, bio tech, etc. To solve the total absence of map presence GuMiho makes one Hellion first when searching Siege and use it to scout Zerg's third. Watch GuMiho vs LosirA, Cloud Kingdom and Akilon Flats (done out of 2 rax in the latter but general order stands), Code S RO16; GuMiho vs Curious, Cloud Kingdom, RO16; Bomber vs DRG, Neo Planet S, Code S RO16. The latter shows the numerous problems of the build; you're hopelessly passive, so Zerg has full map control with creep everywhere and he can just backstab again and again and again using his superior mobility as soon as you move out; plus if Zerg has good creep spread (which should be the case since zero pressure/initiative = extra Queens are free to devote 100% of their energy to Tumors) you're virtually automatically 3-bases all-in on most maps because creep covers your fourth anyway. When going triple OC + early Tanks this way you transition into Marines/Tanks, mech is not at all interested in early Tanks. @ TheDwf Thank you for your reply. How do you open if you want to go mech? What do you recommend? BioTank or Mech? (TvZ) For not getting early tanks that is. EDIT: I guess I should go back and read some of your OP points before you reply. Perhaps I forgot about some of them since it has been a long time I read it. | ||
Tyrannsaur
United States6 Posts
I have like a 150 apm, Please and thank you. | ||
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PinheadXXXXXX
United States897 Posts
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ILosethenOP
United States25 Posts
I literally have no idea how to engage a protoss who has more than a 2 collossi and/or high templar. I consistently get smashed by Protoss no matter if they go for HT or Collossi. I understand the basic "counter" for each but cannot seem to either approach the battle well or maybe it is just a micro problem. I often find myself with a upgrade lead and a small army lead. However, the AOE of protoss just absolutely destroys me. Please, please, please give me some tips and advice on how to approach playing protoss. | ||
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Aveng3r
United States2411 Posts
On February 22 2013 23:30 darkphantom wrote: when going mech sometimes ill have a lot off mineral excess... where should i spend those at what time in the game?? the answer could be to have another reactored fact to dump mins into hellions, other times you wanna add ccs.. | ||
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Firlefanz
Germany245 Posts
On February 24 2013 12:10 ILosethenOP wrote: http://drop.sc/306795 I literally have no idea how to engage a protoss who has more than a 2 collossi and/or high templar. I consistently get smashed by Protoss no matter if they go for HT or Collossi. I understand the basic "counter" for each but cannot seem to either approach the battle well or maybe it is just a micro problem. I often find myself with a upgrade lead and a small army lead. However, the AOE of protoss just absolutely destroys me. Please, please, please give me some tips and advice on how to approach playing protoss. I'm just a diamond terran, but i hope that my advice can still help you. Your general play/gameplan was good, but you had quite a few bumps in your play that made you lose the game. Most of the time TvP just looks terribly onesided regardless the outcome. 1. With the kind of build your enemy is doing your starport is probably the most important structure. It is idle a long time before you start building medivacs/vikings. 2. Scan his army, scout and/or move out with the first 2 medivacs. You have to know against what type of army you are going up against. 3. With that in mind you have to start producing vikings after the first 2 (maximum 4) medivacs to get a decent viking count. You had the resources available to constantly produce vikings (i think about 3 vikings per colossus are optimal). Your starport just sits there doing nothing - produce non-stop! 4. While watching the engagement: Try fighting in the open to get a good arch and try positioning your vikings so that they are safe against the stalkers. Use hotkeys, your bio army is not on a hotkey and micro your vikings in the fight (re-position, focus-fire). 5. Start 2/2 as early as your armory and ebay have finished and get the fourth gas a tiny bit earlier (but still after the 3rd CC of course). 6. After losing your third and a lot of your army you are really far behind. Unless you have godlike micro you couldn't have won the next engagement i feel. 7 Colossus are too much for 11 vikings and your opponent already has 3 archons while you don't have ghosts. Just try getting everything a bit sooner and you will win that engagement decisevly. Best of luck! | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On February 22 2013 23:30 darkphantom wrote: when going mech sometimes ill have a lot off mineral excess... where should i spend those
On February 23 2013 18:40 halpimcat wrote: So no marauders necessary to stop a 6 gate? Also a problem I have even when deflecting a two base push is losing a boatload of scvs. I might not even lose a couple bunkers; Protoss force fields the back of my bunkers so the repairing scvs in Front can't escape. He does this a couple times, I lose a bunch of scvs, and he goes home. Should I just carry on with regular 2 base aggression from there while trying to replenish my scv count? 1 more thing: could I have held that without scanning? Let us say that when going add-ons after Starport, having Marauders or no is not the most important thing regarding defending 6/7g. What matters is (a) being prepared with at least 3 bunkers when Protoss hits, (b) using 100% of your rax production time beforehand and (c) when the fight begins, focus the Sentry casting Guardian Shield with your bunker(s). I am unsure what the problem is just reading your description, do you have replays of this? Can be a problem with SCVs/bunkers positioning or an overraction. In this case yes, but it's not relevant as you can't expect every Protoss to stupidly reveal their hand this way in advance. That being said, if you're active on the map with a SCV and/or Marines parked at key locations (besides, on Daybreak you can hold the Tower thanks to the LoS blockers surrounding it), you can smell if something fishy is going on, for instance Stalkers reclaiming map control at suspicious timings, and prepare accordingly without scanning, but it takes good game sense. On February 23 2013 22:07 llIH wrote: What do you recommend? BioTank or Mech? (TvZ) Can't really answer as it's a matter of style/preference. On February 23 2013 22:07 llIH wrote: How do you open if you want to go mech? On February 24 2013 04:05 Tyrannsaur wrote: Hi I'm bronze level and am wondering some good mech openings in every matchup my biggest difficulty is tvz. Read the OP for TvZ. For TvT it's more complicated as many openings can transition to mech, and the way you play them depends on what your opponent is doing, but basically any kind of 1-1-1 (i. e. quickly teching Factory and Starport before or after expand) can be used as a mech opening. In TvP mech is bad. On February 24 2013 05:57 PinheadXXXXXX wrote: Is bomber's style of TvZ, where one goes for hellions but no banshees into a third, recommended? What do you mean, something like 1 rax CC depot gas gas fact reactor CC (or CC rax gas fact reactor CC for the CC first variant)? On February 24 2013 12:10 ILosethenOP wrote: http://drop.sc/306795 I literally have no idea how to engage a protoss who has more than a 2 collossi and/or high templar. I consistently get smashed by Protoss no matter if they go for HT or Collossi. I understand the basic "counter" for each but cannot seem to either approach the battle well or maybe it is just a micro problem. I often find myself with a upgrade lead and a small army lead. However, the AOE of protoss just absolutely destroys me. Please, please, please give me some tips and advice on how to approach playing protoss. On February 24 2013 20:43 Firlefanz wrote: 1. With the kind of build your enemy is doing your starport is probably the most important structure. It is idle a long time before you start building medivacs/vikings. 2. Scan his army, scout and/or move out with the first 2 medivacs. You have to know against what type of army you are going up against. 3. With that in mind you have to start producing vikings after the first 2 (maximum 4) medivacs to get a decent viking count. You had the resources available to constantly produce vikings (i think about 3 vikings per colossus are optimal). Your starport just sits there doing nothing - produce non-stop! 4. While watching the engagement: Try fighting in the open to get a good arch and try positioning your vikings so that they are safe against the stalkers. Use hotkeys, your bio army is not on a hotkey and micro your vikings in the fight (re-position, focus-fire). 6. After losing your third and a lot of your army you are really far behind. Unless you have godlike micro you couldn't have won the next engagement i feel. 7 Colossus are too much for 11 vikings and your opponent already has 3 archons while you don't have ghosts. This. You have only 4 Vikings against 4 Colossi when he hits with his awful disguised 2-bases all-in (which you could not scout because you did not move out at the normal timing), so naturally you can't do anything; and you have 9 Vikings (i. e. not even enough to one-shot one Colossus) vs 6 Colossi at the main engagement, so obviously you get stomped. Against 6 Colossi aim at around 20 Vikings. Oh, and you were too Marine-heavy. Against Stalkers/Colossi you want more Marauders. | ||
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Necosarius
Sweden4042 Posts
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PinheadXXXXXX
United States897 Posts
On February 24 2013 21:05 TheDwf wrote: What do you mean, something like 1 rax CC depot gas gas fact reactor CC (or CC rax gas fact reactor CC for the CC first variant)? Yes, that is what I mean. | ||
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nomyx
United States2205 Posts
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govie
9334 Posts
On February 25 2013 09:17 nomyx wrote: Does anyone have some good TvZ replays from recently? I just downloaded the Katowice and Iron Squid replay packs but the maps / replays are bugged. No ground visible at all, buildings / units just floating in the air. Im not gonna link to a rival website, but "Polt vs Coolman" is nice to watch, just type it in google In thirty minutes, Polt showcases everything that's awesome in the terran race: he splits, he double drops, he kites, he pushes and takes crushing positions while at the same time being the most efficient tumor removal tool known to man. Not that TheCoolMan didn't try hard, on the contrary. Yet all he got from Polt was the finger and a creep line shoved all the way back to his natural. | ||
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