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Crankenstein
Australia150 Posts
Does anyone have some replays of this opener or any experience with it etc? In TvT at the moment I am enjoying a 5 factory mech style I learnt from demuslim but I can't find an opener I like with which to transition into this. I'm thinking of using this reactored starport push to seize the positioning I want - be it a contain or the xel naga tower - and then using this dominant position to expand and go into the 5 factory tank style I like. | ||
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KenDM
Netherlands206 Posts
http://drop.sc/39218 Now this guy. He was high gold in his first two seasons. His APM was 184, which is very abnormal for a Bronze player. I reported the asshole. Why do high level players keep playing Bronze? Are achievements that important? Blizzard should just ignore quick losses :S I also had someone just quit the game before it started, free win he calls it ... Is winning that important? If so, how do they think all the Bronze players feel that are struggling just to get to Silver... or just continue playing the game for that matter ... | ||
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Dilheisha
Canada55 Posts
On September 30 2011 23:27 KenDM wrote: I lost a game to a very, very quick baneling bust today. And lings flowing in. All the while he was on one base. Can someone please take a look? I was even rushing tanks, so I think I had the right defenses for both Banelings and Roaches. Even called SCV's for repairs ... http://drop.sc/39218 Now this guy. He was high gold in his first two seasons. His APM was 184, which is very abnormal for a Bronze player. I reported the asshole. Why do high level players keep playing Bronze? Are achievements that important? Blizzard should just ignore quick losses :S I also had someone just quit the game before it started, free win he calls it ... Is winning that important? If so, how do they think all the Bronze players feel that are struggling just to get to Silver... or just continue playing the game for that matter ... 1) Try to rescout your oponent at the 5-6 min mark If zerg has no expand make a bunker up your ramp. 2) Maybe your Command Center was a little bit to soon with a second round of scouting you would have built more barrack and delayed CC. Maybe you could delay your first tank to make an Hellion and get him by a watch tower. In that case, you could get your second gaz a little bit later and afford a bunker. Hope it helps, EDIT( Added Quote) | ||
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Maxie
Sweden2653 Posts
...as for ghosts, as said I'm pretty bad at using them, but I guess their task should basically be to snipe any infestor or broodlord that gets in range, and EMP:ing infestors if they clump up. As said, though, i find it easier to make vikings against broodlords and just split them vs fungal growth. | ||
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Maxie
Sweden2653 Posts
On September 30 2011 09:09 Crankenstein wrote: In TvT at the moment I am enjoying a 5 factory mech style I learnt from demuslim but I can't find an opener I like with which to transition into this. I'm thinking of using this reactored starport push to seize the positioning I want - be it a contain or the xel naga tower - and then using this dominant position to expand and go into the 5 factory tank style I like. How about using Demuslim's 15 gas factory expand? It works great. TvT: DEMUSLIM MECH: gas @ 15 and a half cc @ ~3:46 factory @ ~4:03, second gas asap @100% factory: starport, hellion, tech lab on rax @100% tech lab, swap to factory, blue flame, 2x vikings reactor on rax, swap to factory when blue flame is done, reactor on starport add 2x factory, dump excess minerals on hellions (4 at a time bro!), claim natural + gases when safe, get tech labs on factories and start tank production + siege mode keep producing tank, hellion, viking, 1x medivac for drops, cc @ ~10-11 minutes (if safe/possible), + 1-2 fact when taken 3rd start upgrades around 13-14 minutes Sorry for the crudeness, it's taken straight from my notepad ;3 | ||
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teamamerica
United States958 Posts
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Boxxer
83 Posts
I always feel like I can't move out of my base to attack because if I use a small force the zerg intercepts me and kills it, if I take my whole army and slow push the zerg just goes and kills my base as soon as he realises I'm not there. Also, how do I deal with muta harass, I'm in the lower leagues and 1-2 turrets don't deter them like in pro games I see, they just suicide instead and kill half my scv's, I've tried keeping loads of marines in my base but then my natural always dies when the zerg sees this. I always feel like I'm behind vs zerg and I kinda just give up before the game has even started now because it feels hopeless to even try. | ||
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KenDM
Netherlands206 Posts
On October 01 2011 00:16 Dilheisha wrote: 1) Try to rescout your oponent at the 5-6 min mark If zerg has no expand make a bunker up your ramp. 2) Maybe your Command Center was a little bit to soon with a second round of scouting you would have built more barrack and delayed CC. Maybe you could delay your first tank to make an Hellion and get him by a watch tower. In that case, you could get your second gaz a little bit later and afford a bunker. Hope it helps, EDIT( Added Quote) Thanks! There was a player that Roach rushed me. I plumped down a Bunker but he destroyed the tech lab on my factory, so Siege mode was delayed a lot. Had to make another factory, with tech lab, with siege mode on again. All the while on 1 base. Had floating minerals so made a second CC. Finally he came with his muta's, and I already had prepared for that by EBaying it up, missile turrets and a lot of marines with stim and medivacs. Really helps getting feedback and recognizing situations! | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On October 01 2011 00:45 teamamerica wrote: Hey guys I was wondering about facing that mass ling off 2 base style (macro hatch lings) when in close pos on shattered and some of the other ladder maps that allow pretty close spawns. I've faced it a few times and lost too it - don't have the replays with me on hand though. I know I can't do the normal 10 minute push (I normally reactor hellion expo but maybe I should just always 11/11 or at least 12/14 in close pos?), but I find it impossible to take the 3rd I know I should be taking - I just get run over with lings. What's your experience playing against this style IN CLOSE POSITIONS? Shattered Temple Close Positions is a pretty unique spawn setup for TvZ. You're pretty safe on 1 base, and on 2 base you're still fine, and the short rush distance negates a lot of zerg map control play. The problem begins to arise when you try to take a 3rd. Taking the blue 3rd or the gold 3rd seems pretty hard to defend, but it's what you have to do-- it is very difficult to defend a cross-map 3rd from the zerg. Even worse, the zerg can pretty easily take and defend a cross-map 3rd due to the mobility of his units. I hate to say it, but for TvZ on Shattered Temple close spawns you might want to end the game on 1 or 2 bases. If you do need to go to three base, here's what I usually do: I wall off the front of my natural, like a full solid walloff with unaddoned rax and depots and stuff, and leave behind just enough dudes to stop him from busting it, like a tank and a bunker or something, then I break down my rocks and expo to the blue 3rd. From there I push into his natural, with bunkers, tanks, and turrets all the way, and a P Fort to fall back to if things get dicey. On October 01 2011 00:55 Boxxer wrote: Now the maps on the ladder are getting so big, particularly as a terran I'm finding it harder and harder to harass zerg. How do effectively attack expos without being intercepted or losing chunks of my base. I always feel like I can't move out of my base to attack because if I use a small force the zerg intercepts me and kills it, if I take my whole army and slow push the zerg just goes and kills my base as soon as he realises I'm not there. Also, how do I deal with muta harass, I'm in the lower leagues and 1-2 turrets don't deter them like in pro games I see, they just suicide instead and kill half my scv's, I've tried keeping loads of marines in my base but then my natural always dies when the zerg sees this. I always feel like I'm behind vs zerg and I kinda just give up before the game has even started now because it feels hopeless to even try. In TvZ, as a general rule, I have a full walloff made out off depots at my natural. I always leave a "skeleton crew" behind when doing a marine tank push, usually consisting of 1 tank and a bunker of marines. That plus a walloff prevents any sort of counter play into the natural. To keep the third and later bases from being counter-attacked, I make them all into planetary fortresses with a couple missile turrets to ward off mutalisks. Now, if he puts serious effort into any of these counter attacks, he can break a repaired P Fort or repaired wall-- but that means you're free to push heavily as well, and he doesn't want to do that. A combination of walling, forces left behind, and Terran statics should suffice. If you find yourself having trouble against mutalisk harass, you have a number of options. 1) Turret Armor: getting building armor reduces mutalisk damage output by like 25%. It's super ridiculous, and I highly recommend it if he's massing them up 2) Turret + Thor or Turret + Marines: supplementing turrets with other AA is very strong. Leave like 6-7 marines in each base (preferrably with a medivac). Once you know the locations of his mutas, you can use the marines+medivac to go drop, so it's not wasted supply. You can also leave an expensive Thor behind, but don't do this unless you really need to. 3) Controlling Muta positioning: you can force the zerg to move his mutalisks using tank pushes or marine drops. If you have a marine drop and you actively use it to kill the queen, he can't actually stop the drop without his mutalisks. If he sends a lot of lings and banes, just pick up your marines-- your marine/tank push is now free to move more quickly since his army is out of position, and your medivac can just hang out until his ling/bane leaves, then drop him again. Zerg isn't realistically able to stop drops without committing lair tech units to doing so, and if his lair tech is mutalisk, that means pulling his flock back, ceding a little bit of pressure and map control, and letting you move out onto the map. 4) Stick Together, Team: Once you've taken up an aggressive position with your marine/tank, don't rally your stuff across the map-- rallypoint your production facilities into your own base, then move out in groups so you don't get picked off by mutlaisks. In any case, if you're truly feeling helpless against zerg, try playing some custom games as a zerg player. It'll give you an idea for what zerg's capable and not capable of doing, and where the weak points of the race is. Do some ZvTs from Z perspective, and you'll understand it better as T. On October 01 2011 02:11 KenDM wrote: Thanks! There was a player that Roach rushed me. I plumped down a Bunker but he destroyed the tech lab on my factory, so Siege mode was delayed a lot. Had to make another factory, with tech lab, with siege mode on again. All the while on 1 base. Had floating minerals so made a second CC. Finally he came with his muta's, and I already had prepared for that by EBaying it up, missile turrets and a lot of marines with stim and medivacs. Really helps getting feedback and recognizing situations! As a general rule, any zerg that doesn't have an expo started by 4:00 is all-in. Some things to look for when scouting: 15 Hatch 14 pool gets hatchery at 2:00, and pool and hatch finish at the same time. Pool/Gas builds that start a hatchery before queen or speed will start hatchery before 3:00 Pool/Gas or Gas/Pool builds that start queen and speed before hatchery will start hatchery around 3:30 Also, try to keep your scouting worker alive as long as possible. Avoid walking inside his mineral line, going near the queen, and being on creep if there are zerglings afoot. As a general rule, you should be able to keep your initial scout alive long enough to tell if he's expanding or not. | ||
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BONE
United States176 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On October 01 2011 03:21 BONE wrote: Question about 5 factory mech style I learnt from demuslim... is there a replay of this somewhere? Is it 5 Facotrys off of 2 bases? Is his army mostly tanks? I don't know... where did you learn it from him? If you can show me where you learned it, I can take a look. Off hand, 5 factories has to be a 2-base play: probably 2 tech lab factories, and 3 naked factories, or maybe 3 tech lab factories and 2 naked factories if you're not worried about air units... It sounds like mostly tanks and hellions, maybe with a thor or two-- definitely a thor or two if your opponent has starport tech. That being said, this is a weird question given that you learned something and are asking me for advice. Do you have any resources related to it? | ||
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BONE
United States176 Posts
On October 01 2011 03:33 Blazinghand wrote: I don't know... where did you learn it from him? If you can show me where you learned it, I can take a look. Off hand, 5 factories has to be a 2-base play: probably 2 tech lab factories, and 3 naked factories, or maybe 3 tech lab factories and 2 naked factories if you're not worried about air units... It sounds like mostly tanks and hellions, maybe with a thor or two-- definitely a thor or two if your opponent has starport tech. That being said, this is a weird question given that you learned something and are asking me for advice. Do you have any resources related to it? Sorry i copied that from 3 or 4 post above | ||
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upperbound
United States2300 Posts
This strategy has been killing me lately and I was wondering if anyone has been particularly successful. | ||
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policymaker
Greece152 Posts
im in mid diamond and just recently started playing again after a summer pause. I favor mech play in tvz, particularly thor hellions for an early push and another supporting unit for the later game. The thing is, if I play a BoX game with some1, what build or mech style can I use so I stick with it for second, third, etc game, since my hellion suprise push is most of the times pointless after the first game? I dont want to switch to standard marine tank just yet, because I have no faith in my micro abilities(plus, im not patient with pushes). Thank you | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On October 01 2011 04:10 upperbound wrote: Any tips in TvZ against 2 base aggression (both roach and ling)? I've been running into this style a lot lately and trying to counter it with a quick in-base expo. By the end of the aggro I'm usually about even on harvesters, but I've been well behind on income due to the 1 base v. 2 base situation. This gets even worse when some zergs have used the contain to throw up a hatchery at my natural, which keeps my 2nd delayed even further while I wait for the creep to recede. This strategy has been killing me lately and I was wondering if anyone has been particularly successful. Hm. It sounds to me like you might not be making enough production facilities, or might be expanding too slowly. It's hard to tell without a replay, though. If you upload a replay to a site like drop.sc or star2.org and post it here I can take a look. What opening build order are you using? On October 01 2011 04:12 policymaker wrote: hello every1 im in mid diamond and just recently started playing again after a summer pause. I favor mech play in tvz, particularly thor hellions for an early push and another supporting unit for the later game. The thing is, if I play a BoX game with some1, what build or mech style can I use so I stick with it for second, third, etc game, since my hellion suprise push is most of the times pointless after the first game? I dont want to switch to standard marine tank just yet, because I have no faith in my micro abilities(plus, im not patient with pushes). Thank you If you have a strategy that relies on some sort of surprising timing and you have to face the same opponent in a Bo3 or something, you should probably change tactics in the 2nd game. If you're not willing to go with marine/tank and would rather stick with full mech, you have additional options such as getting some upgrades and making a later timing attack, getting a third and going for a 200/200 push, and changing your composition by adding siege tanks, and eventually ghosts and vikings to deal with zerg T3/infestor. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On October 01 2011 03:33 Blazinghand wrote: I don't know... where did you learn it from him? If you can show me where you learned it, I can take a look. Off hand, 5 factories has to be a 2-base play: probably 2 tech lab factories, and 3 naked factories, or maybe 3 tech lab factories and 2 naked factories if you're not worried about air units... It sounds like mostly tanks and hellions, maybe with a thor or two-- definitely a thor or two if your opponent has starport tech. That being said, this is a weird question given that you learned something and are asking me for advice. Do you have any resources related to it? I think he might be talking about a vod or something. Either way I've never seen 5 facts off 2 base. From the TvTs I've seen it's been 4 going 1R-4TL with pure tank hellion production and reactor starport. 5 off 2 base sounds highly inefficient. In fact I think the ideology is a bit iffy. You don't want to know what he mostly makes, you want to know why he makes what he makes. Just knowing what he makes won't help your play. Also I wouldn't go blue flame openings TvT anymore. Reactors seem better and safer. Blue flame opening you don't really have the firepower to deal with any kind of fast all in and it's not really worth it to rush up to blue flame. On October 01 2011 04:12 policymaker wrote: hello every1 im in mid diamond and just recently started playing again after a summer pause. I favor mech play in tvz, particularly thor hellions for an early push and another supporting unit for the later game. The thing is, if I play a BoX game with some1, what build or mech style can I use so I stick with it for second, third, etc game, since my hellion suprise push is most of the times pointless after the first game? I dont want to switch to standard marine tank just yet, because I have no faith in my micro abilities(plus, im not patient with pushes). Thank you I'd suggest finding a mech style that doesn't rely on a gimmick to work. That will solve all your BoX issues. You will have your plays that do have gimmicks but also have your solid standard to fall back on. EDIT: I see Blazinghand has taken over everything here, impressive. | ||
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MonDeW
Denmark369 Posts
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Adrenalinz
30 Posts
On October 01 2011 06:04 MonDeW wrote: In TvP, i don't really know the indicators for what build the opponent is going, lets say that he gets a second early gas, i know some of the options, but i can't really determine which build that he is going. Can anyone help me? Most of my opponents get a lot of sentries or colossi with their early second gas. Once they see me going tanks, they change to immortals or archons. This may not be true in all leagues, but my plat opponents like to go for colossi or archons when they get a second gas. If they are fast expanding, they tend to use sentries earlier on for defense. A second early gas can also indicate earlier blink research or high templars. Hope this helps. But I love scans so much that I never have to do this little guess-game. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On October 01 2011 06:04 MonDeW wrote: In TvP, i don't really know the indicators for what build the opponent is going, lets say that he gets a second early gas, i know some of the options, but i can't really determine which build that he is going. Can anyone help me? A 2nd early gas means 1 of 2 things: 1) He's going for a standard, "safe" expansion, like a sentry expand or a 2 gate robo expand. 2) He's 1 base all-inning you like the punk he is. If he's expanding, you should be able to tell with a a scout, just look for an expo at his natural. If he hasn't expanded, he's probably all-inning you. | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
On October 01 2011 06:04 MonDeW wrote: In TvP, i don't really know the indicators for what build the opponent is going, lets say that he gets a second early gas, i know some of the options, but i can't really determine which build that he is going. Can anyone help me? An example i can give you.. if he add a second gas early, save chronoboost but don't use it right away on his core, he might be Voidray all in you ( or Immortal push you, as i find out today :s ) | ||
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