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On September 28 2011 19:10 Maxie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 19:01 kenkou wrote:On September 28 2011 18:52 Maxie wrote:
@Kenkou, which matchup? All of them?
@Blazinghand, I was planning to take a closer look at my TvZ but my latest TvZ games have the same problem: I'm winning, and I'm winning because my opponent plays terribly (high diamond zerg that I use as my practice partner... he doesn't play that well when he has played 25 ladder games earlier the same day and is sick, lol).
What's your opinion of analyzing your victories? I see a ton of bad things even in the games I win, so... I feel like it's a decent idea. Oh, forgot to include the matchup sorry. It would be TvZ. Well, what I've seen Thorzain do is reactor hellion expand into double CC into sick spoon terran macro style with lots of upgrades. You're weak to early roach attacks by doing so, though... but if you react properly to that and then go into marine/tank/medivac 2base -> claim third -> macro like hell, you should be pretty strong in the midgame. I wouldn't do it on small maps, maps with hard to defend thirds, or possibly not on maps with a rock blocking the third (depends on how fast you want to claim the third). Just make sure that you have the army to take and hold that expansion though, no point in claiming it if you can't defend it. I'll try finding a sample match, don't know if its one of the free to watch ones though. Edit: http://www.gomtv.net/2011gstls1/vod/66016#loginPopFoucsI'm not 100% certain if its that game since I watched it during the two days you could watch everything for free... but it's a Thorzain TvZ on Antiga Shipyard where Thorzain spawns bottom left and the zerg either top right or top left.
This brings up an interesting question:
When do you decide it's okay to expand, and what do you do to keep this expo well defended?
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On September 28 2011 19:10 Maxie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 19:01 kenkou wrote:On September 28 2011 18:52 Maxie wrote:
@Kenkou, which matchup? All of them?
@Blazinghand, I was planning to take a closer look at my TvZ but my latest TvZ games have the same problem: I'm winning, and I'm winning because my opponent plays terribly (high diamond zerg that I use as my practice partner... he doesn't play that well when he has played 25 ladder games earlier the same day and is sick, lol).
What's your opinion of analyzing your victories? I see a ton of bad things even in the games I win, so... I feel like it's a decent idea. Oh, forgot to include the matchup sorry. It would be TvZ. Well, what I've seen Thorzain do is reactor hellion expand into double CC into sick spoon terran macro style with lots of upgrades. You're weak to early roach attacks by doing so, though... but if you react properly to that and then go into marine/tank/medivac 2base -> claim third -> macro like hell, you should be pretty strong in the midgame. I wouldn't do it on small maps, maps with hard to defend thirds, or possibly not on maps with a rock blocking the third (depends on how fast you want to claim the third). Just make sure that you have the army to take and hold that expansion though, no point in claiming it if you can't defend it. I'll try finding a sample match, don't know if its one of the free to watch ones though. Edit: http://www.gomtv.net/2011gstls1/vod/66016#loginPopFoucsI'm not 100% certain if its that game since I watched it during the two days you could watch everything for free... but it's a Thorzain TvZ on Antiga Shipyard where Thorzain spawns bottom left and the zerg either top right or top left.
Hmm... that sounds good. Only real threat to the build sounds like really early roaches but defending it should be the same as a normal reactor hellion build. I'm thinking a focus on seige tanks and combat shield marines should be enough to defend a zerg if properly walled off. A bit later starport + stim and stay on the defensive until you get your third up and running, then gain alot of map presence and shutdown zerg expo's. I think maybe an overreaction of turrets to defend muta's might not be a bad idea, as I should be able to have a surplus of mineral income.
Unfortunately the GSTL game isn't free, but I do recall watching that game. Antiga seems to be the perfect map to do it on.
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On September 28 2011 19:38 KenDM wrote:
This brings up an interesting question:
When do you decide it's okay to expand, and what do you do to keep this expo well defended?
I don't. When it comes to my third, I simply have a timing when I'm gonna build it, and when it's finished I'm gonna float that thing out to an expansion and start mining! Then again, I don't do double cc reactor hellion expands...
What I do is to have some units hanging out around it as it morphs into a planetary, and if they go for mutas I place turrets there right away.
Note: either scan or let the turret finish before you move all the scvs to mine there if its mid/lategame, some zergs like being sneaky with burrowed banelings in your mineral lines  .
In TvP I also have a timing for my 3rd.
In TvT I generally FE and then float it down to my natural when I deem it safe, which depends entirely on what your opponent is doing... you can take a risk by moving it down early, but as said, it's a risk.
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What timing do you use? Usually for me, my natural is inhabited when the 2nd OC is finished. I've been advised to make the third on 11 minutes. And a new expo every 4 minutes. But how do you defend the new expo site? The problem that I face is that when I have a good enough army to push out, I get distracted by harassment. And I try to manage it okay enough, but on big maps that harder than it sounds.
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On September 28 2011 20:03 KenDM wrote:
What timing do you use? Usually for me, my natural is inhabited when the 2nd OC is finished. I've been advised to make the third on 11 minutes. And a new expo every 4 minutes. But how do you defend the new expo site? The problem that I face is that when I have a good enough army to push out, I get distracted by harassment. And I try to manage it okay enough, but on big maps that harder than it sounds.
11 minutes sounds fine, for TvZ/TvP. TvT, I'd make it slightly later, but it depends on if you're ahead or not.
My TvZ is at the moment extremely planned for the first ~12 minutes. I open up with a reactor hellion expand, move down my cc to the nat as soon as it's an orbital command - which is safe because of the map control the hellions give me.
Then, I push at ~9:30-10:00 with a marine/tank army (stim finished, combat shield close to finished) with 3 tanks, and behind this, I expand. Unless my push gets absolutely roflstomped I should be able to safely take my third.
Turrets should certainly be enough to defend against mutas at that point in the game, place how ever many you are comfortable with without going too over board.
I find it far harder to secure a 4th/5th as they are often on hard to take positions, and at that point my army is most likely stuck doing the slowpush at the zerg... but it's the same concept as before - some units, planetary + turrets.
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Thanks. Can someone please help me with a better TvP than my siege expand? I tried winging a game up, but I had a really late expo, I had quite the army, but sentries cancelled the relevance of that. Anyone mind taking a look at this replay for me? I just don't want to use tanks anymore, because immortals are too good against them, and that leaves me with an army with just not enough infantry units. Does anyone have an inspiring replay for me? I'm getting sick of this game, because everything I practice becomes irrelevant at some point, and I just don't have that time left anymore... I'm seriously thinking of quitting as well. So some help would be appreciated.
http://drop.sc/38852
I wanted to go MMM, because someone advised me that. Keeping a big enough army and having the factory and starport going down all the while having your second CC is just so hard without a good build order. Anyone has anything that can help me?
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On September 28 2011 22:35 KenDM wrote:Thanks. Can someone please help me with a better TvP than my siege expand? http://drop.sc/38852I wanted to go MMM, because someone advised me that. Keeping a big enough army and having the factory and starport going down all the while having your second CC is just so hard without a good build order. Anyone has anything that can help me?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=262125
or if you want something safer:
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I need some help in TvT! I guess this is really a common situation: I was completely trapped inside my base by enemy tanks and couldnt expand which made me pretty much lose the game. I tried to drop as much as I could and while kinda effective, it didnt really save the game. What am I supposed to do when Im locked down in my base like this? Im mid/high diamond.
Replay: http://drop.sc/38857
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On September 28 2011 23:23 Maxie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 22:35 KenDM wrote:Thanks. Can someone please help me with a better TvP than my siege expand? http://drop.sc/38852I wanted to go MMM, because someone advised me that. Keeping a big enough army and having the factory and starport going down all the while having your second CC is just so hard without a good build order. Anyone has anything that can help me? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=262125or if you want something safer:
Haha how ironic! I started using the 2Rax 3Bunkers FE and that vid was made for me  I didn't like the fact it lacked serious firepower in the beginning though. That's why switched to a Siege expand build. Bunker management is too micro-intensive and it makes my macro go wrong so bad.
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On September 29 2011 03:52 KenDM wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 23:23 Maxie wrote:On September 28 2011 22:35 KenDM wrote:Thanks. Can someone please help me with a better TvP than my siege expand? http://drop.sc/38852I wanted to go MMM, because someone advised me that. Keeping a big enough army and having the factory and starport going down all the while having your second CC is just so hard without a good build order. Anyone has anything that can help me? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=262125or if you want something safer: Haha how ironic! I started using the 2Rax 3Bunkers FE and that vid was made for me I didn't like the fact it lacked serious firepower in the beginning though. That's why switched to a Siege expand build. Bunker management is too micro-intensive and it makes my macro go wrong so bad.
Too micro intensive? Build them, fill them, have scvs at nat hotkeyed to repair. That's all. Oh, and the best button in the world: salvage.
Edit:
@Blazinghand: since you've watched two decently long TvZ:s with me now, anything else you'd like to comment on? Mainly thinking about game 2. Except for "don't get half your siege tanks stuck in your base without noticing it" .
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Oh that's right, butthat wasn't my biggest problem. I didn't know how to transition into other tactics. It's 2 rax that's it. The siege expand tells me to build a factory, qnd even then I have troubles of knowing when to place the second rax or a starport. I'm really unsure about a lot of stuff. Maybe someone can take a look at a replay of mine and advise at what time to build a starport, or wether or not throwing a reactor on my 1st rax is useful or that I should make amsecond rax and a tech lab, or just go directly for that starport?
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Oh. Well, we were talking about TvP right? As bio?
Well, then I'd say that once your 2 raxes and your expansion is up, get the following:
-stim, combat shield, concussive shells
-go up to 3-4 raxes, add addons for these (2x-3x tech labs, 1x reactor)
-get an engineering bay and start upgrading
-get a factory -> reactored starport
You can do these in different orders, but when I play I generally go stim -> engineering bay. start +1->addons->combat shield/concussive shells-> factory -> reactored starport->(expansion/more rax)
Note: I do 1 rax gasless FE, so I add 2 raxes right after the command center, which brings me up to three. Then I start following the arrows. The () depends on your economy and if you can expand or not.
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On September 29 2011 06:56 Maxie wrote:
Oh. Well, we were talking about TvP right? As bio?
Well, then I'd say that once your 2 raxes and your expansion is up, get the following:
-stim, combat shield, concussive shells
-go up to 3-4 raxes, add addons for these (2x-3x tech labs, 1x reactor)
-get an engineering bay and start upgrading
-get a factory -> reactored starport
You can do these in different orders, but when I play I generally go stim -> engineering bay. start +1->addons->combat shield/concussive shells-> factory -> reactored starport->(expansion/more rax)
Note: I do 1 rax gasless FE, so I add 2 raxes right after the command center, which brings me up to three. Then I start following the arrows. The () depends on your economy and if you can expand or not.
I kind of get this order, but what my problem is: I can't figure out when exactly to throw down a new structure. For the longest time, I don't have enough minerals for them while producing 1-2 SCV's + 2 marines + 1 tank. then when I do have the money and I throw down structures, I don't have enough money to produce out of them. I'm making a fundamental mistake somewhere and I can't figure out what it is.
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On September 29 2011 07:11 KenDM wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2011 06:56 Maxie wrote:
Oh. Well, we were talking about TvP right? As bio?
Well, then I'd say that once your 2 raxes and your expansion is up, get the following:
-stim, combat shield, concussive shells
-go up to 3-4 raxes, add addons for these (2x-3x tech labs, 1x reactor)
-get an engineering bay and start upgrading
-get a factory -> reactored starport
You can do these in different orders, but when I play I generally go stim -> engineering bay. start +1->addons->combat shield/concussive shells-> factory -> reactored starport->(expansion/more rax)
Note: I do 1 rax gasless FE, so I add 2 raxes right after the command center, which brings me up to three. Then I start following the arrows. The () depends on your economy and if you can expand or not. I kind of get this order, but what my problem is: I can't figure out when exactly to throw down a new structure. For the longest time, I don't have enough minerals for them while producing 1-2 SCV's + 2 marines + 1 tank. then when I do have the money and I throw down structures, I don't have enough money to produce out of them. I'm making a fundamental mistake somewhere and I can't figure out what it is.
Get in the habit of every time you get a new base up and running, throw down ~3 new production facilities. Once you tie your production to your economy like that you get a much better feel for how much you can afford and when.
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On September 29 2011 07:20 Treadmill wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2011 07:11 KenDM wrote:On September 29 2011 06:56 Maxie wrote:
Oh. Well, we were talking about TvP right? As bio?
Well, then I'd say that once your 2 raxes and your expansion is up, get the following:
-stim, combat shield, concussive shells
-go up to 3-4 raxes, add addons for these (2x-3x tech labs, 1x reactor)
-get an engineering bay and start upgrading
-get a factory -> reactored starport
You can do these in different orders, but when I play I generally go stim -> engineering bay. start +1->addons->combat shield/concussive shells-> factory -> reactored starport->(expansion/more rax)
Note: I do 1 rax gasless FE, so I add 2 raxes right after the command center, which brings me up to three. Then I start following the arrows. The () depends on your economy and if you can expand or not. I kind of get this order, but what my problem is: I can't figure out when exactly to throw down a new structure. For the longest time, I don't have enough minerals for them while producing 1-2 SCV's + 2 marines + 1 tank. then when I do have the money and I throw down structures, I don't have enough money to produce out of them. I'm making a fundamental mistake somewhere and I can't figure out what it is. Get in the habit of every time you get a new base up and running, throw down ~3 new production facilities. Once you tie your production to your economy like that you get a much better feel for how much you can afford and when.
I get the general outline of that, but it's more important that the moment I throw down structures, they are idle when finished. It's like, I'd like vikings, but at the same time I won't have enough gas for tanks, or minerals for marines. In other words, I need to get that feeling where I make structures and produce off of them right away, without delay, no decay!
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On September 29 2011 07:58 KenDM wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2011 07:20 Treadmill wrote:On September 29 2011 07:11 KenDM wrote:On September 29 2011 06:56 Maxie wrote:
Oh. Well, we were talking about TvP right? As bio?
Well, then I'd say that once your 2 raxes and your expansion is up, get the following:
-stim, combat shield, concussive shells
-go up to 3-4 raxes, add addons for these (2x-3x tech labs, 1x reactor)
-get an engineering bay and start upgrading
-get a factory -> reactored starport
You can do these in different orders, but when I play I generally go stim -> engineering bay. start +1->addons->combat shield/concussive shells-> factory -> reactored starport->(expansion/more rax)
Note: I do 1 rax gasless FE, so I add 2 raxes right after the command center, which brings me up to three. Then I start following the arrows. The () depends on your economy and if you can expand or not. I kind of get this order, but what my problem is: I can't figure out when exactly to throw down a new structure. For the longest time, I don't have enough minerals for them while producing 1-2 SCV's + 2 marines + 1 tank. then when I do have the money and I throw down structures, I don't have enough money to produce out of them. I'm making a fundamental mistake somewhere and I can't figure out what it is. Get in the habit of every time you get a new base up and running, throw down ~3 new production facilities. Once you tie your production to your economy like that you get a much better feel for how much you can afford and when. I get the general outline of that, but it's more important that the moment I throw down structures, they are idle when finished. It's like, I'd like vikings, but at the same time I won't have enough gas for tanks, or minerals for marines. In other words, I need to get that feeling where I make structures and produce off of them right away, without delay, no decay!
Hmm. Sounds like maybe your build is off? Or you're building to many barracks/etc off too little economy. Post a replay in this thread I guess.
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Well see, that's the thing! The BO's dictate what to do at a certain point and that's it. The 2 Rax 3 bunkers FE doesn't go further than 2 raxes. The siege expand doesn't go beyond the factory. It's weird like that for me ^^''
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Just wanted to thank Blazinghand for those amazing vods! You pointed out my supply block and how that screwed up my macro which probably costed me the game more so then the terrible collosus force fields sandwich.
Very awesome show .
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On September 29 2011 07:58 KenDM wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2011 07:20 Treadmill wrote:On September 29 2011 07:11 KenDM wrote:On September 29 2011 06:56 Maxie wrote:
Oh. Well, we were talking about TvP right? As bio?
Well, then I'd say that once your 2 raxes and your expansion is up, get the following:
-stim, combat shield, concussive shells
-go up to 3-4 raxes, add addons for these (2x-3x tech labs, 1x reactor)
-get an engineering bay and start upgrading
-get a factory -> reactored starport
You can do these in different orders, but when I play I generally go stim -> engineering bay. start +1->addons->combat shield/concussive shells-> factory -> reactored starport->(expansion/more rax)
Note: I do 1 rax gasless FE, so I add 2 raxes right after the command center, which brings me up to three. Then I start following the arrows. The () depends on your economy and if you can expand or not. I kind of get this order, but what my problem is: I can't figure out when exactly to throw down a new structure. For the longest time, I don't have enough minerals for them while producing 1-2 SCV's + 2 marines + 1 tank. then when I do have the money and I throw down structures, I don't have enough money to produce out of them. I'm making a fundamental mistake somewhere and I can't figure out what it is. Get in the habit of every time you get a new base up and running, throw down ~3 new production facilities. Once you tie your production to your economy like that you get a much better feel for how much you can afford and when. I get the general outline of that, but it's more important that the moment I throw down structures, they are idle when finished. It's like, I'd like vikings, but at the same time I won't have enough gas for tanks, or minerals for marines. In other words, I need to get that feeling where I make structures and produce off of them right away, without delay, no decay!
On September 29 2011 10:08 KenDM wrote:
Well see, that's the thing! The BO's dictate what to do at a certain point and that's it. The 2 Rax 3 bunkers FE doesn't go further than 2 raxes. The siege expand doesn't go beyond the factory. It's weird like that for me ^^''
I think this might just be something that comes with experience and practice. Usually, battle plans for TvP go something like this:
- Some sort of build order with a fast expand, possibly some early pressure. Numbered with food counts, etc.
- Fly new CC to natural, numbered with a food count or a timing.
- Add new productions, take gasses 3 and 4, get medivacs, vikings ghosts, upgrades, and a third-- all mentioned sort of vaguely without food counts.
The reason it gets really vague at this point is that TvP is a "Reactive" matchup for Terran. So now, without further ado, I present you:
Blazinghand's Basic Bronze+ Beorycraft for BvP
I needed everything to start with Bs, ok?!
Core: Marines + Marauders + Medivacs
Coupled with stimpack, this composition is hugely effective against Zealots, Sentries and Stalkers. You can kite, you can run around, and you can deal a lot of damage. Everything comes out of barracks and life is simple. You can stim and then heal in between fights. Where your opponent get Sentries to support and vastly increase the effectiveness of his Stalkers and Zealots, you get Medivacs.
Eventually, barring a warpgate or a warpgate/immortal or warpgate/drops allin off of 2 bases, the Protoss player is going to start getting some splash damage. This means Colossi or HTs and/or Archons. This is where M+M+M starts to break down, and the Terran needs to be reactive.
Fighting the Splash: Ghosts and Vikings
Archons and High Templars are both weak to the same thing: EMP. It drains Templar Energy and does full damage to Archons, which are 95% shields. You can also use snipes on lone templars if that's your thing. When you see your opponent getting Twilight Tech splash damage, that means you need to make Ghosts. Ghosts will also be great against Immortals, Sentries, and um.. Phoenixes and Motherships. You can also use EMP to decloak DTs.
Colossi can be hit by anti-air attacks, like that of the Viking. The Viking's Range and burst damage make it a good anti-colossus unit when going standard. He will try to fight your vikings using stalkers, or in some cases Phoenixes. Regardless, keep your vikings close to your bio-ball and all will go well. You can also land them in certain situations, especially after most colossi are dead, to turn the tide in close fights.
Build these units to react to the Protoss splash units. Ghosts have more utility against standard gateway units than Vikings do, since EMP is a solid splash spell against all protoss units, so don't worry about over-making them. When making vikings, a 2nd starport (often without a reactor) is a good idea, since you still need medivacs.
So here's what this means, on 2 bases as Terran:
You want infrastructure that can support the production of your CORE, plus the option to switch into your ANTI-SPLASH. You want to be able to dump 2 bases worth' of minerals and vespene while also having enough left over for getting upgrades and taking a third at a reasonable time.
Infrastructure you always want:
3 Barracks (2 tech, 1 reactor)
1 Starport (1 Reactor)
1 Engineering Bay (constant upgrades)
Optional Infrastructure: (add if you want to all-in on 2 base, or he's allinning you hard-- this will delay your expansion)
1 Barracks (naked or with a tech lab)
2nd Engineering Bay, and an Armory so you can get your +2/+2 quickly
2nd Starport without addon for +50% medivacs and vikings
Supplemental Infrastructure: (add this every time you expo)
3 Barracks with addons
2nd engineering bay if you don't have one, as well as an armory.
You can support a 4th barracks with no addon, or a 4th barracks WITH an addon if you're willing to severely, severely delay your expo, or are expecting to have cost savings somewhere (you're trading army and don't need to make supply depots).
A 2nd engineering bay will eat into your gas pretty heartily, but won't actually delay your expo THAT much.
With this infrastructure, you have the ability to produce Core, Vikings or Ghosts as neccessary. Make it your Goal to get to 3 Barracks, 1 Starport, 1 Engi Bay (with appropriate addons) on 2 bases, and produce out of them constantly, then take a reasonable third.
On September 29 2011 16:57 Bojas wrote:Just wanted to thank Blazinghand for those amazing vods! You pointed out my supply block and how that screwed up my macro which probably costed me the game more so then the terrible collosus force fields sandwich. Very awesome show .
I'm glad I was able to help. Make sure to stop by if you have more questions.
On September 29 2011 04:46 Maxie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2011 03:52 KenDM wrote:On September 28 2011 23:23 Maxie wrote:On September 28 2011 22:35 KenDM wrote:Thanks. Can someone please help me with a better TvP than my siege expand? http://drop.sc/38852I wanted to go MMM, because someone advised me that. Keeping a big enough army and having the factory and starport going down all the while having your second CC is just so hard without a good build order. Anyone has anything that can help me? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=262125or if you want something safer: Haha how ironic! I started using the 2Rax 3Bunkers FE and that vid was made for me I didn't like the fact it lacked serious firepower in the beginning though. That's why switched to a Siege expand build. Bunker management is too micro-intensive and it makes my macro go wrong so bad. Too micro intensive? Build them, fill them, have scvs at nat hotkeyed to repair. That's all. Oh, and the best button in the world: salvage. Edit: @Blazinghand: since you've watched two decently long TvZ:s with me now, anything else you'd like to comment on? Mainly thinking about game 2. Except for "don't get half your siege tanks stuck in your base without noticing it" .
Um, It's somewhat hard to tell. The 2nd game was SO thrown off by the Siege Tank thing that I can't really offer any advice-- you had invested about 1500 minerals, 1200 gas, and 30 food into an enormous army that spent about 5 minutes trapped in your main-- and then you WON. I can't really add much to that until I see a close game or a game you lose in which you don't trap that many tanks in your main for so long. Still, I CAN tell you've improved quite a bit, and I like your aggressive tank pushing and good anti-muta-harass. The only thing I didn't see was effective use of lategame ghosts, which you should consider incorporating, especially against infestor/broodlord play.
OH MAN SYNYSTYR POSTED IN HERE! Although he edited his post, everyone should say "hi" to him-- he's the brilliant mind behind the 2 Rax 3 Bunker FE that I promote, as well as a neat anti-colossus build. <3
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