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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
On November 27 2012 07:52 Hero1 wrote:
How do you hold a (proxy) 3gate/immortal allin in TvP? I had perfect scouting info, 3 bunkers in line on cloud kingdom, and 2-3 SCVs on autorepair in front(!) of each bunker (and obviously some more to pull) but he can a. kill these SCVs from further away b. if I put them behind the bunker, he'll make two FFs and snipe one bunker after another c. he obviously doesn't let me rebuild them and I'll lose more and more stuff until he breaks through.
Go 5 rax mass marines pull SCVs. Or you can baserace him after he pushes out.
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On November 26 2012 06:55 TempestMaker wrote:
Thanks both. So essentially double hatch before pool is a good reaction to
my CC first build, and since I can't punish it the correct reaction is to get my own third CC asap.
I'll check the timings against one of my 1-rax FE replays to see if bunkering the third could work in that case.
Yes, double expand before pool is a reaction to CC first. With 1 rax FE it depends whether you scouted it in time or not; if yes you can keep producing Marines to attempt a Bunker rush on his third, otherwise if you already cut your second Marine your attack will be too weak, so you might as well go 1 rax double or even triple expand (e. g. Taeja vs LosirA on Antiga @ TAC3 Grand Finals).
On November 26 2012 23:55 RMonkeyF wrote:
Is it still more economical to go 16 oc or is it back to 15 cc now?
CC14 has better economy than 1 rax FE. If you refer to 16 vs 15 OC (not counting the Marine), the 16 variation is slightly better in the long term.
On November 27 2012 07:52 Hero1 wrote:
How do you hold a (proxy) 3gate/immortal allin in TvP? I had perfect scouting info, 3 bunkers in line on cloud kingdom, and 2-3 SCVs on autorepair in front(!) of each bunker (and obviously some more to pull) but he can a. kill these SCVs from further away b. if I put them behind the bunker, he'll make two FFs and snipe one bunker after another c. he obviously doesn't let me rebuild them and I'll lose more and more stuff until he breaks through.
On a map without a secondary ramp like CK it's probably better to retreat in your main, otherwise try 5 Bunkers in a concave if possible. Focus the Sentry casting Guardian Shield.
On November 27 2012 07:53 GARcher wrote:
1 rax FE against 4 gate. It's hard to hold a 4 gate on one base. Throw down a ton of bunkers and position your SCVs so they don't get forcefielded away. If possible, snipe sentries.
Most 4 gates don't even come with Sentries, 2-3 Bunkers with SCVs ready is enough.
On November 27 2012 07:53 GARcher wrote:
Warp prism 4 gates just scan at 5:20-5:40 then put down bunkers in main and send an SCV out to patrol. Pull SCVs back and lift orbital as he's pushing out.
No, scanning that early is horrible and it's not even guaranteed that you will have any valuable information since Gateways can be hidden / Robotics can be proxied.
On November 27 2012 07:53 GARcher wrote:
A much easier thing to do is when you suspect him of doing something cheesy, go 2 rax.
If you refer to Reactor first 2 rax, it holds 4 gate and 4 gate Prism without any problem but you're not in a particularly good spot against DT play and you might run into troubles against Blink Stalkers all-ins (especially the 4 gates variation) because of your weak production, so I would not recommend this as an “all-round anti-cheese build”. 1 rax expand with good scouting is better because the earlier expand pays off faster while the various follow-ups focusing on army (3 rax add-ons before Factory, 4 rax, 5 rax) can handle specific all-ins depending on what you scout.
On November 27 2012 08:04 GARcher wrote:
Go 5 rax mass marines pull SCVs. Or you can baserace him after he pushes out.
No. Just no. Marines without any tech are absolutely horrible against Zealots (and other units too) protected by Guardian Shield and FFs will separate your army in tiny bits which will die in a very inefficient way. Base races are not an option since he's quickly on the map with a better army than yours, physically preventing you from moving out. Not to mention going 5 rax is an early decision, and it's unlikely you know for sure what he's up to at this time.
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On November 27 2012 08:56 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 06:55 TempestMaker wrote:
Thanks both. So essentially double hatch before pool is a good reaction to
my CC first build, and since I can't punish it the correct reaction is to get my own third CC asap.
I'll check the timings against one of my 1-rax FE replays to see if bunkering the third could work in that case. Yes, double expand before pool is a reaction to CC first. With 1 rax FE it depends whether you scouted it in time or not; if yes you can keep producing Marines to attempt a Bunker rush on his third, otherwise if you already cut your second Marine your attack will be too weak, so you might as well go 1 rax double or even triple expand (e. g. Taeja vs LosirA on Antiga @ TAC3 Grand Finals). Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 23:55 RMonkeyF wrote:
Is it still more economical to go 16 oc or is it back to 15 cc now? CC14 has better economy than 1 rax FE. If you refer to 16 vs 15 OC (not counting the Marine), the 16 variation is slightly better in the long term. Show nested quote +On November 27 2012 07:52 Hero1 wrote:
How do you hold a (proxy) 3gate/immortal allin in TvP? I had perfect scouting info, 3 bunkers in line on cloud kingdom, and 2-3 SCVs on autorepair in front(!) of each bunker (and obviously some more to pull) but he can a. kill these SCVs from further away b. if I put them behind the bunker, he'll make two FFs and snipe one bunker after another c. he obviously doesn't let me rebuild them and I'll lose more and more stuff until he breaks through. On a map without a secondary ramp like CK it's probably better to retreat in your main, otherwise try 5 Bunkers in a concave if possible. Focus the Sentry casting Guardian Shield. Show nested quote +On November 27 2012 07:53 GARcher wrote:
1 rax FE against 4 gate. It's hard to hold a 4 gate on one base. Throw down a ton of bunkers and position your SCVs so they don't get forcefielded away. If possible, snipe sentries. Most 4 gates don't even come with Sentries, 2-3 Bunkers with SCVs ready is enough. Show nested quote +On November 27 2012 07:53 GARcher wrote:
Warp prism 4 gates just scan at 5:20-5:40 then put down bunkers in main and send an SCV out to patrol. Pull SCVs back and lift orbital as he's pushing out. No, scanning that early is horrible and it's not even guaranteed that you will have any valuable information since Gateways can be hidden / Robotics can be proxied. Show nested quote +On November 27 2012 07:53 GARcher wrote:
A much easier thing to do is when you suspect him of doing something cheesy, go 2 rax. If you refer to Reactor first 2 rax, it holds 4 gate and 4 gate Prism without any problem but you're not in a particularly good spot against DT play and you might run into troubles against Blink Stalkers all-ins (especially the 4 gates variation) because of your weak production, so I would not recommend this as an “all-round anti-cheese build”. 1 rax expand with good scouting is better because the earlier expand pays off faster while the various follow-ups focusing on army (3 rax add-ons before Factory, 4 rax, 5 rax) can handle specific all-ins depending on what you scout. Show nested quote +On November 27 2012 08:04 GARcher wrote:
Go 5 rax mass marines pull SCVs. Or you can baserace him after he pushes out. No. Just no. Marines without any tech are absolutely horrible against Zealots (and other units too) protected by Guardian Shield and FFs will separate your army in tiny bits which will die in a very inefficient way. Base races are not an option since he's quickly on the map with a better army than yours, physically preventing you from moving out. Not to mention going 5 rax is an early decision, and it's unlikely you know for sure what he's up to at this time.
So you are saying going 1rax fe is best way to hold off all kind cheez? i somehow always troubles agains blink stalkers/3gate void allins with it. How should scout and what should i do depending on what i see?
Even taeja lost to hero blink stalker allin and i wasnt that impressed with hero blink stalker micro, while taeja is arguable best terran in the world.
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Hello, I struggle a lot with T v P.
This particular game reflects a general problem I have with the match up - decision making
Replay - http://drop.sc/279055
I opened up with a standard 1 rax fe into drop harass which kills 15 probes at 11ish minutes, followed by killing off the 3rd base at 13minutes.
Furthermore, I won an engagement at 15 minutes and killed off all toss's HTs, including his 3rd base again. - He is left with 60 supply, while I have my third.
However, I do not press this lead head on and decide to drop 6 medviacs of units into the main, which is a bad decision, since my supply lead has dropped dramatically afterwards.
I establish my 4th as he gets his 3rd and 4th, he gets a bunch of HTs, zealots and I proceed to lose the game.
How do I end games decisively in this matchup? All too often I get ahead and proceed to lose it to toss AoE in a frustrating fashion. I did my best to avoid and waste storms and in this case, I was dealing with just 1-2 colos. I even had the supply lead in the last engagement.
I cant comprehend this matchup, and can no longer win by playing standard, I have to resort to all ins and be hopeful for a win.
Please help! Thanks!
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@Mia - At this point it is believed that any cheesy play can be held by 1 rax FE. Also if you hold a cheese with 1 base play you are not necessarily ahead.
Could you guys give me some pointers to handling ... probe/drone/SCV harass? It is rarely seen at pro level, as they value scouting much more and even if someone does it, pulling additional SCV always seems enough to scare the harasser off. What should I do when enemy scout starts attacking my SCV building barracks? Sometimes they are even as bold as to attack my mining SCVs and I am not sure what is the proper reaction here as well.
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So you are saying going 1rax fe is best way to hold off all kind cheez? i somehow always troubles agains blink stalkers/3gate void allins with it. How should scout and what should i do depending on what i see?
Even taeja lost to hero blink stalker allin and i wasnt that impressed with hero blink stalker micro, while taeja is arguable best terran in the world.
Cheese play can be held with a 1 rax fe. As for scouting and reaction:
1.) Use your scv scout to determine whether he has 1 or 2 gas before the first stalker pops out. Count and make sure he has 3 probes in each gas.
2.) Scout the natrual ~ 5:30, either with a hidden scv or with a scan(only if you scouted 2 gas). If there is no natural and he has 2 gas it´s definitly some sort of allin.
The best response is to evacuate the natrual and salvage your bunkers and rebuild them in your main. It´s really easy to hold those allins when you are in your main and have only 1 base to defend and you also have the choke. Then you wait until stim and medivacs are finished and you can take your natural and fly your main cc to your 3rd since your main will be mined out then.
Blink Stalker are only strong, when he has multiple corners to jump in and observers. While evacuating to 1 base you limit the number of entrances to your base and while safing your energy, you can use it to snipe observers or scan for dts.
Warpprism allins are only strong, when he can safely land in your base and warp in a round of units before getting attacked. So spread your depots around your base to see it comming and then pull scvs + units to crush it (remeber to focus fire the warpprism if possible).
Immortal pushes will also be weakend, since he needs to shoot up and his zealots and sentries will be blocked in the choke. By repairing your wall and the bunkers you can buy enough time until stim and medivacs are finished. The most important thing until then is to loose as less units as possible (loosing scvs doesn´t matter that much since you already have your 2 CCs to reproduce).
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On November 27 2012 20:39 Sianos wrote:Show nested quote +So you are saying going 1rax fe is best way to hold off all kind cheez? i somehow always troubles agains blink stalkers/3gate void allins with it. How should scout and what should i do depending on what i see?
Even taeja lost to hero blink stalker allin and i wasnt that impressed with hero blink stalker micro, while taeja is arguable best terran in the world. Cheese play can be held with a 1 rax fe. As for scouting and reaction: 1.) Use your scv scout to determine whether he has 1 or 2 gas before the first stalker pops out. Count and make sure he has 3 probes in each gas. 2.) Scout the natrual ~ 5:30, either with a hidden scv or with a scan(only if you scouted 2 gas). If there is no natural and he has 2 gas it´s definitly some sort of allin. The best response is to evacuate the natrual and salvage your bunkers and rebuild them in your main. It´s really easy to hold those allins when you are in your main and have only 1 base to defend and you also have the choke. Then you wait until stim and medivacs are finished and you can take your natural and fly your main cc to your 3rd since your main will be mined out then. Blink Stalker are only strong, when he has multiple corners to jump in and observers. While evacuating to 1 base you limit the number of entrances to your base and while safing your energy, you can use it to snipe observers or scan for dts. Warpprism allins are only strong, when he can safely land in your base and warp in a round of units before getting attacked. So spread your depots around your base to see it comming and then pull scvs + units to crush it (remeber to focus fire the warpprism if possible). Immortal pushes will also be weakend, since he needs to shoot up and his zealots and sentries will be blocked in the choke. By repairing your wall and the bunkers you can buy enough time until stim and medivacs are finished. The most important thing until then is to loose as less units as possible (loosing scvs doesn´t matter that much since you already have your 2 CCs to reproduce).
Scouting at 5:30 is too late vs 4 gate and 4 gate warp prism. Even if you react instantly, your bunkers will not be done
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How do you guys do stutter step micro with marines and marauders? I feel like when I do it I often miss a beat. I usually right click with mouse to make units move forward then quickly a-attack forward and so on.
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On November 28 2012 00:40 Poltergeist- wrote:
How do you guys do stutter step micro with marines and marauders? I feel like when I do it I often miss a beat. I usually right click with mouse to make units move forward then quickly a-attack forward and so on.
I used to do it like that all the time and it was a failure. I found that I had much better results with alternating right click and 's' button. For some reason (maybe key ergonomy) it worked better for me than alternating with 'h'.
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Guys please, please help me, I don't have any clue what to do vs Zerg...
I am mid diamond Terran player and I play mech. Mainly, my early agression are BFH runbys, which gives me over 60 drones kill per game. There I wasn't able to sneak 1 hellion! What I did wrong?
http://drop.sc/279543
When I wanted to do 2/2 timing push I saw GGlords and I said "I won't make any damage to him"
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When doing a double engineering bay bio build, how do you know when to start your armory so that you can being +2+2 right after +1+1 finishes? Do you have to watch the timing on the eng bays or is there a better rule of thumb?
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I'm a mid-master terran player (KR ladder) having trouble with aggressive zerg builds. Currently, I use a 1 expand build into hellion banshee and then eventually marine/tank/medivac. I'm having trouble with certain early speedling and roach attacks which hit around 6-6:30, which comes out when I have 2 hellions and 3 marines and a bunker at my nat. Has the metagame changed? I haven't been active since Oct and it seems that zergs have been playing very aggressive these days.
Some questions:
1) Should I retreat everything at the nat and build a bunker on top to hold it if he goes roaches till my banshee comes out? I've tried this option but I still end up losing 6-7 scvs.
2) Should I move out with the first 2 hellions? I've been caught a few times by speedlings which either surround my hellions or go in as I leave my base. However, this won't allow me to scout any incoming roaches.
3) Against the speedling attack, is it only possible to hold it if you hold position your SCVs at the bunker? It sounds difficult to execute since you have minimal reaction time.
4) Is it advisable to scout early on against zerg, even on 4 player ladder maps?
5) How does 1 rax CC CC fare against these attacks? If I'm not mistaken, you'll have 1 more marine in the bunker but delayed hellions, and the 3rd CC will help a bit to replenish lost SCVs.
I'm thinking of also sending an scv out at 6 minutes to give me some advance warning instead of the hellions.
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On November 27 2012 19:35 ThaSlayer wrote:Hello, I struggle a lot with T v P. This particular game reflects a general problem I have with the match up - decision making Replay - http://drop.sc/279055I opened up with a standard 1 rax fe into drop harass which kills 15 probes at 11ish minutes, followed by killing off the 3rd base at 13minutes. Furthermore, I won an engagement at 15 minutes and killed off all toss's HTs, including his 3rd base again. - He is left with 60 supply, while I have my third. However, I do not press this lead head on and decide to drop 6 medviacs of units into the main, which is a bad decision, since my supply lead has dropped dramatically afterwards. I establish my 4th as he gets his 3rd and 4th, he gets a bunch of HTs, zealots and I proceed to lose the game. How do I end games decisively in this matchup? All too often I get ahead and proceed to lose it to toss AoE in a frustrating fashion. I did my best to avoid and waste storms and in this case, I was dealing with just 1-2 colos. I even had the supply lead in the last engagement. I cant comprehend this matchup, and can no longer win by playing standard, I have to resort to all ins and be hopeful for a win. Please help! Thanks!
From 10 to 11 minutes was a horrific engagement concept, you took 2/3 of your force into 2 medis and dropped in his main workers and didnt hardly anything. During this u sacrificed the other third of your force into his exp workers. You lost out.
You had the holy grail of upgrades and failed to exploit them - stim, +1 weapons and combat shields. You had the bigger army AND medis, you should have simply marched up his ramp once those upgrades were done and straight engaged for the win. You had good rallying and good spending. Your engagement strategy didnt make sense.
17:00 You killed his 2nd exp well. U just need to keep popping that and strangle him for the win.
28:00 You lost due to unit composition. Marauders are no good vs immortals with speedlot assistance. You needed some mech in your force AND +1 ship weapons to pop his colossus quicker.
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Greetings.
I struggle alot versus Protoss (I'm Platinum Terran) and I have a feeling it is because I don't really know when to push an advantage versus them.
The following game (TvP loss) is a good example of it.
The game starts relatively uneventfull with both of us going Fast Expo. Then I tech to Medivacs and push the 3rd location while expanding myself.Since he haven't expanded yet I eventually backed away after losing a few Marines.
My question here is should I have kept pushing? Maybe lift to the main?
After a while I get back on the map but by this time he already has a few High Templars with his army so from now on I'm generally afraid to engage actively so I stand back and try a few drops (that go horribly) but still we just circle eachother and no major engagements. Here I know I have to be more carefull with the drops.
At the end when I'm with 4 bases, getting the 5th while Protoss already has his 5th (empty), he pushes killing a bunch of SCVs (intended to sacrifice them anyway) and my 5th, however I completely kill his army. Now here I aknow I completely botched my macro in remaking my lost army (and scv-free supply). However the Protoss basically makes something like 80 supply in Zealots and a-moves through my expantions, army and remaining SCVs.
My questions here are, if I didn't forget/miss remaking my army would it have been possible to hold this Zealot push? And is there any occasion where I can punish a Protoss losing his entire army after a certain point in the game (4/5 bases and lots of gates)? Or do I just defend from said point onward and make a few drops?
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Is there any chance to hold the proxy thor cheese with a 1rax expansion if I have no chance of scouting it? This was played on entombed valley where I scouted him in last position. Later I tried to scout his expansion but didn't see anything besides 4 rines. The 6:20 scan revealed a lot of gas mined but only 1rax. I suspected the factory and port might be just outside scan range and pulled marines to my main (had one full bunker at the front). It turned out that he proxied the factory at mr 3rd (could have sent a marine there but a. who really expects proxy thor these days b. he could have proxied anywhere).
I obviously lost with 11 rines and all of my SCVs gathered in my main to his 6 rines + thor + 8 repair SCVs without dealing any damage really. I have no idea how to micro this properly. My SCVs didn't even do anything because they were trying to kill the thor surrounded by his SCVs and sniping them one by one takes forever and sometimes isn't even possible without rotating the camera (which I have bounded on INS and DEL, so superugly to micro this way). And he still has 6 marines dealing damage as well.
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On November 27 2012 19:25 Mia wrote:
So you are saying going 1rax fe is best way to hold off all kind cheez? i somehow always troubles agains blink stalkers/3gate void allins with it. How should scout and what should i do depending on what i see?
Even taeja lost to hero blink stalker allin and i wasnt that impressed with hero blink stalker micro, while taeja is arguable best terran in the world.
Good scouting and proper reactions are the best ways to hold off cheeses; 1 rax FE (or CC first) gives you the advantage of an early boost in your economy so the game is automatically yours should you defend convincingly his cheese.
To scout proxies against 2 gas openings check how many Pylons there are in his base. There should be 3 around the 4' mark; if you don't see 3 Pylons it's worth searching in the vicinity of your base to see if there is something. If you see a proxy Stargate early you can kill the Pylon with your first Marines while preparing 1 or 2 extra Barracks at home.
Against Blink Stalkers all-ins I never have troubles when scouting it early. Signs are:
- 2 gas;
- 3 Pylons in his base (and thus no proxy) with one of them being able to fuel a building in the back of his base (outside of common scan areas);
- A favorable map (e. g. Daybreak and Entombed Valley are impractical due to the map layout);
- No Zealot, no Sentries (some builds can get a Zealot, but no Sentry is sure);
- One or two Stalkers camping in front of his natural to dispose of your scouting SCV;
- No scout or 9 scout from him are also a possible sign (he doesn't scout because he doesn't care since he wants to blindly all-in, or he wants to make sure you go 1 rax FE).
With my first 50 gas I make 2 Tech Labs, then I continuously make Marauders and search Concussive (first) and Stim (second). When Protoss makes his first Blink in my base (7'15 - 7'30) I have enough to fend him off without pulling any SCV, then I defend while teching to Medivacs. Be sure you never get supply blocked and pay attention to the location of your Tech Lab searching Stim, you don't want it to be cancelled.
On November 27 2012 19:35 ThaSlayer wrote:Hello, I struggle a lot with T v P. This particular game reflects a general problem I have with the match up - decision making Replay - http://drop.sc/279055
Yes, you killed 15 Probes with your first move but unfortunately, you also silently killed 10 of your own SCVs by the 10' mark since you had 40 instead of 50; so instead of having the advantage you merely evened out things.
On Daybreak you can build your third directly on its location if you have map control (just search around your side of the map to make sure a Zealot won't randomly appear out of some proxy Pylon to kill your building SCV), and you could have built it a bit earlier. Landing it at the 15' mark is really late, even for 5 rax before third. Make sure you build a Bunker surrounded by Depots so you have something to deal with Zealots in your mineral lines.
Search Moebius Reactor as soon as Ghost Academy is ready.
At the 17' mark your Ghosts should not tank Zealots like that while some HTs still have energy in the back. If you lose all your Ghosts while Protoss retains some Storms, your push will likely be stopped.
Fortunately enough, yours still prevailed... But then, why do you retreat? Never allow a Protoss any chance to come back in the game. You have him, finish him now. Your Medivacs still have energy! Rally all your troops and end it. Retreating was not the good choice here.
11 Barracks is too much for a 55-60 SCVs economy [with only 3 OCs]. No need to make Refineries at your fourth, you will bank gas with your low SCV count on minerals.
Send a Marine to patrol at key paths rather than wasting Scans to see if his army is there or not.
You have way too many Marauders while he had nearly pure Zealots. Marauders are absolutely horrible against Zealots.
What are you doing at the 25' mark, moving forward with your Ghosts without any vision while you have a Scan? Never do that. Ghosts are your pride and your joy. Ghosts are extremely expensive. Don't lose them carelessly at the beginning of the fight, you will 100% lose the following fight without any EMP and their precious dps against Zealots.
Don't separate all your Ghosts from your army the way you did at the last fight. You see what happened. Keep them with your army so they have a better chance to live after casting EMPs.
Things to work on:
- Economy management and third timing. Benchmarks: ~50 SCVs at the 10' mark; start your third on its location at the 10' mark (unless you want to do really heavy pressure) if going 5 rax before third; ~65 SCVs at the 13' mark.
- Ghost control. You need vision (so scan if you don't have said vision) for casting wars. Your troops need to be near your Ghosts in case he tries to pick them with Blink Stalkers. Don't panic, take your time to aim (dual EMP for clumped HTs, Snipes for spread HTs). Remember: each time you throw away a Ghost, a little baby panda dies somewhere. Are you a panda killer?
On November 27 2012 19:47 crow_mw wrote:
Could you guys give me some pointers to handling ... probe/drone/SCV harass? It is rarely seen at pro level, as they value scouting much more and even if someone does it, pulling additional SCV always seems enough to scare the harasser off. What should I do when enemy scout starts attacking my SCV building barracks?
Pull a SCV from your mineral line to defend your building SCV, interrupt construction to fight 2v1 if needed.
On November 27 2012 19:47 crow_mw wrote:
Sometimes they are even as bold as to attack my mining SCVs and I am not sure what is the proper reaction here as well.
Fight back with the attacked SCV, pull another if he insists.
On November 28 2012 00:40 Poltergeist- wrote:
How do you guys do stutter step micro with marines and marauders? I feel like when I do it I often miss a beat. I usually right click with mouse to make units move forward then quickly a-attack forward and so on.
Always did this way too (right click, attack, right click, attack, etc).
On November 29 2012 13:35 TheFish7 wrote:
When doing a double engineering bay bio build, how do you know when to start your armory so that you can being +2+2 right after +1+1 finishes? Do you have to watch the timing on the eng bays or is there a better rule of thumb?
Quite straightforward: since an Armory takes 65 seconds to complete, you need to make your Armory 65 seconds before 1/1 finishes, so if you don't know exactly when you start your EBs with your build, just check when 1/1 is near 95/160.
On November 29 2012 14:54 netherDrake wrote:
1) Should I retreat everything at the nat and build a bunker on top to hold it if he goes roaches till my banshee comes out? I've tried this option but I still end up losing 6-7 scvs.
It's a possibility. Personnally, I never do this because I refuse to give up my Depots at the natural. Honestly, if you went 1 rax expand → dual gas → second Depot → Hellions → Banshees losing 10 SCVs is kind of standard, you have no other choice given your build order. Depending on the timing of his Roaches, I just counter with my first 4 Hellions if I have the possibility. Otherwise, clench your teeth and avenge your lost SCVs when his attack is fended off. Be sure not to lose your Hellions against Roaches for nothing. Ironically enough, losing SCVs instead may be better because if you retain your Hellions, you threaten to kill many Drones in return while if you lose them (the first 4 or 6 ones), you're left with little possibility to strike back.
On November 29 2012 14:54 netherDrake wrote:
2) Should I move out with the first 2 hellions? I've been caught a few times by speedlings which either surround my hellions or go in as I leave my base. However, this won't allow me to scout any incoming roaches.
Yes. Pay constant attention to your Hellions while they move towards the Tower.
On November 29 2012 14:54 netherDrake wrote:
3) Against the speedling attack, is it only possible to hold it if you hold position your SCVs at the bunker? It sounds difficult to execute since you have minimal reaction time.
Your Bunker needs to be located in such a way it's not easily surrounded by Speedlings and yes, you need to surround said Bunker with your SCVs at the natural and you need to hit as many times as possible with your first 2 Hellions. Your goal is to kill as many Speedlings as possible; you will get overwhelmed anyway if he makes 30+ of them but the more Speedlings you kill, the easier it will be for you to take back your natural. Rally Hellions #3 and #4 inside your main, of course, and resume Marine production after Lab is complete so you can make a new Bunker to protect your natural while your Hellions/Banshees are on the map.
On November 29 2012 14:54 netherDrake wrote:
4) Is it advisable to scout early on against zerg, even on 4 player ladder maps?
Depends on what you mean by “early”. I don't think it's really worth it but if 10 pool are common on your server and it annoys you, you might give it a try (at least on 2-spawns maps... on 4-spawns you probably would have too many chances to miss an early pool anyway). At the last MLG Flash did scout early against Life to make sure he was able to CC first directly on natural.
On November 29 2012 14:54 netherDrake wrote:
5) How does 1 rax CC CC fare against these attacks? If I'm not mistaken, you'll have 1 more marine in the bunker but delayed hellions, and the 3rd CC will help a bit to replenish lost SCVs.
I would say worse against mass Speedlings (since you will be contained longer and your Bunker should still go down if he bothers to micro Speedlings on your SCVs; besides, your counter-attack possibilities afterwards will be weaker); against Roaches it depends on his build (timing/number of Roaches). Having an extra Marine in the Bunker against Roach Warren 18 is good, but being able to counter with your first 4 Hellions with the 1 rax CC dual gas variant is very nice. Killing 10 SCVs isn't so hot anymore when you lose 10-15 Drones meanwhile yourself.
On November 29 2012 20:04 BioTech wrote:
From 10 to 11 minutes was a horrific engagement concept, you took 2/3 of your force into 2 medis and dropped in his main workers and didnt hardly anything.
What? Killing 15 Probes at this point is game-ending if your macro didn't slip. Losing his part of his army at the natural was unnecessary, though, but killing 15 Probes is way more than you can usually hope with the Medivac poke.
On November 29 2012 20:04 BioTech wrote:
You had the holy grail of upgrades and failed to exploit them - stim, +1 weapons and combat shields. You had the bigger army AND medis, you should have simply marched up his ramp once those upgrades were done and straight engaged for the win
No, in a standard game you don't “simply march up ramps” with a Medivac poke. That's asking to be crushed by Forcefields.
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My standard TvZ is the CC-first MVP mech build. However, this gets crushed by zergs who go gas before pool (and indeed the handy liquipedia article says not to use it in that case!) My question is, given that I send my scout about the same time the CC starts, so generally it will arrive while CC and rax are building (unless it's a big map and I get unlucky), what should I transition into if I see he went gas before pool? If he's mined more than 100 and isn't researching speed I can assume roaches most likely; won't be time to get tanks, so presumably I need another rax or two, marauders, and more bunkers. If he is researching speed, still probably need more raxes and bunkers, but still go for reactor hellions?
Regardless, when this happens I'm floundering making up a build on the fly. What's a good go-to in these two situations? (Went CC first and scout gas before pool, more than 100 gas mined, 1) speed not researching 2) speed researching.) As much detail as possible would be helpful. Thanks!
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How early is scouting early? I scout with the scv that comes out after my rax starts. If I spot earlier pool then I am more serious about scouting. My guess is that you can see gas in his base as he has to get gas earlier to get speed for the attack.This could easily be a simple speed opening, but with the potential for more aggression you might justify more aggressive (and expensive) SCV scouting in these cases.
I think that good bunker / depot positioning helps immensely here. There are some angles on some maps that will increase the time you have to pull scv's and get them in between the lings and the bunker and put them all on auto repair.
I favor getting the hellions out on the map as soon as possible. Maybe send them one at a time (staggered) so you only donate the first one.
On November 29 2012 14:54 netherDrake wrote:
I'm a mid-master terran player (KR ladder) having trouble with aggressive zerg builds. Currently, I use a 1 expand build into hellion banshee and then eventually marine/tank/medivac. I'm having trouble with certain early speedling and roach attacks which hit around 6-6:30, which comes out when I have 2 hellions and 3 marines and a bunker at my nat. Has the metagame changed? I haven't been active since Oct and it seems that zergs have been playing very aggressive these days.
Some questions:
1) Should I retreat everything at the nat and build a bunker on top to hold it if he goes roaches till my banshee comes out? I've tried this option but I still end up losing 6-7 scvs.
2) Should I move out with the first 2 hellions? I've been caught a few times by speedlings which either surround my hellions or go in as I leave my base. However, this won't allow me to scout any incoming roaches.
3) Against the speedling attack, is it only possible to hold it if you hold position your SCVs at the bunker? It sounds difficult to execute since you have minimal reaction time.
4) Is it advisable to scout early on against zerg, even on 4 player ladder maps?
5) How does 1 rax CC CC fare against these attacks? If I'm not mistaken, you'll have 1 more marine in the bunker but delayed hellions, and the 3rd CC will help a bit to replenish lost SCVs.
I'm thinking of also sending an scv out at 6 minutes to give me some advance warning instead of the hellions.
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Hey.
I recently started playing again after quitting in March-Aprilish and i started to watch filtersc's guides to learn macro play it goes pretty well but i often have problems with keeping my macro up while getting harrased or attacking. What is the best way to learn to keep the macro up? Is it just training on it as much as you can or are there any special ways you reccomend? 
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Hi, diamond Terran here.
I have always wondered about the the early expanding in TvZ. I mostly use my cc to wall in and then lift it down after I turn it to an orbital. Can you hold off all early aggression from a zerg if you build it in you natural?
Edit: The aggression Im talking about is the agression after hatch first. Early pool will ofc do some damage.
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EPT
