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Abstinence
United States328 Posts
On November 26 2012 04:47 U_G_L_Y wrote: When I 1 rax fe vz Z, is it wrong to take both gas before second depot? It's safer, and by no means wrong. Even mvp does it. You get a really fast factory and a later 3rd CC, whereas gas a bit after depot (21~23) means you get a 3rd CC before factory. | ||
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Vague
170 Posts
I'm in Masters and I'm having trouble with a particular kind of Zerg aggression. I usually go for the standard 1 rax gasless expand, into hellion banshee build. Some zergs scout my FE and they go for a roach/queen all in. The catch is that they go for nydus tech as well, to help the queens into the battle. They either nydus my main, or just nydus outside my natural. Now, this is brilliant because the banshee and good micro is what can stop a roach all in, but if they send 3 queens along with the roaches, the banshee does nothing. Here is an example of such a build: The scary part is that it isn't enough to prevent the nydus from getting into my main, since a nydus outside my natural is almost as strong (given that at that time I can only have 4 or 6 hellions, 1 banshee, and maybe a marauder (on top of the 3 initial marines)). Any ideas? Thank you in advance! | ||
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BreakeR.
Austria220 Posts
since its pretty hard to find Replays nowadays i thought i'd ask here. Could pls anyone give me a link to a tvp replay where the terran(obivously) the hellion/marine drop plays. It would also cool if he woudl transition out of it. Thx in advance! | ||
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Jakuu
7 Posts
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gh0st
United States98 Posts
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TempestMaker
Canada37 Posts
On November 25 2012 19:44 Sianos wrote: With a 1 rax fe you can build a bunker at their 3rd and try to move your first marine over there. However with a cc first your barracks will be to late to start a bunker (I think), so the proper reaction to it would be to start your 3rd cc before factory, since you don´t have to fear any early aggression. This also goes for 1 rax fe as a follow up to your bunker pressure. On November 26 2012 01:29 TheDwf wrote: With CC first there is none. Thanks both. So essentially double hatch before pool is a good reaction to my CC first build, and since I can't punish it the correct reaction is to get my own third CC asap. I'll check the timings against one of my 1-rax FE replays to see if bunkering the third could work in that case. | ||
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skyafterrain
Thailand22 Posts
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teamamerica
United States958 Posts
On November 26 2012 04:52 Whatson wrote: EDIT: yeah I'm pretty sure I'm getting trolled, or we're thinking about totally different things And negative comments are actually some of the best ways to get somebody to improve. No bullshit or fluff, just what you can fix and why. Nah you just lack reading comprehension. Since we're both talking about On November 25 2012 01:53 aviator116 wrote: + Show Spoiler + On November 25 2012 01:10 U_G_L_Y wrote: Okay folks, I have a replay. I lose any time zerg makes roaches, at any point in the game. THis is a FFA where the other two immediately leave but it typified SO many games that I have asked for help with in this thread http://drop.sc/278294 I know I played bad, I was up until 2am playing team games and the damn kids got me up at 6:30 so this was sloppy, and I get so tilted by early roaches that I don't commit to doing anything and have horrible macro. CC first on Antiga, he scouts me first, I scout gas at 3:45 and no third a little while later so I suspect a bust or mutas. Before I can do anything about it, a handful of roaches show up at my natural so I cancel my starport to get a good surround on my bunker and not die. He then just camps out of range of the bunker so I can't land at my natural for a looong time. Even though he could have transitioned into a ling style at that point, I blindly go almost pure marauder with some tank and medivac support because I struggle so much against roaches. I should not have suicided my hellions, I should have just been patient and waited for a medivac and camped at likely fourth bases. I should not have floated a billion gas, I usually mech and the marauder transition didn't go smoothly. I also shouldn't have hotkeyed my third CC when floating it away to ninja expo because I called it back to my base more than once changing rally points. (Again, I can't tell you how much roaches fluster me.) He attacks with a bunch of roaches with infested terran support up the ramp into my depot wall backed by tanks, marauders, and medivacs and just rapes me. (!) I definitely lost this due to macro, but I will continue to lose to it until I am confident in what to do. If I commit to a banshee to scout, I could just lose to secondary, later bust, if I commit to marauder, he could go ling muta or ling infestor since he has only committed 150 to the roach warren and am in the dark until he starts making units. When I go mech like normal the roaches deny my third base until I have 6 tanks and 2 thors with which to secure it, by that time the game is over. So I start to do all of them at once and float eleventy billion resources not deciding what to do and lose even harder. Please help. The guy said he doesn't know how to help me because he doesn't lose to Terran... This was just a case of, like you said, getting out-macroed, but you also basically lost with his first push. At 6 minutes, you scout 6 roaches and no 3rd. Why would you go for a 3rd CC, if you had thrown down bunkers or more rax you would have held much easier. Also, if you watch all pro games where a Terran sees no 3rd by 6, they won't go for hellion-banshee, they'll make tanks first, which even unsieged are a hell of a lot better than hellions. See Violet vs MMA IEM Kiev. The sentence I'm referring says Also, if you watch all pro games where a Terran sees no 3rd by 6, they won't go for hellion-banshee, they'll make tanks first, which even unsieged are a hell of a lot better than hellions. See Violet vs MMA IEM Kiev. With no reference to seeing ling roaches. I'm not trying to be a dick about this, I'm just sure that's what that sentence means, regardless of whether that's what he meant or not, anyone reading it shouldn't assume you're seeing roaches. If you're going to criticize me at least learn to read? On November 26 2012 06:43 Jakuu wrote: Hey, my T v Z vs infestors is generally OK, but when I'm agaisnt ling bling muta, I always get overrun by the sheer amount of stuff they have. Also, they tend to get enough mutalisks that they can just kill the turrets and get my workers, I usually go for a 1 rax FE into 3 rax. When I mech i usually have no problem becuase of the amount of thors and hellions i have but when I bio I just get overrun. Since you're going into 3 rax you'll definitely have the right number of marines. I'm just not sure what the factory/3rd/upgrade timings are unless we're talking about playing it like a TvP though. I don't think 1rax expo into 3 rax lets you put on a lot of pressure or deny any creep - both of which make fighting Zerg that much harder, so I'd really recommend learning to play hellion/banshee. A scouting ovie into your main will see the 3rax, a baneling nest around 7 minutes + scouting of when you move out of your base should crush any pressure attempts you make with pure marine. Anyway since it's so rare to see muta play some things to remember are to 1) get 1 or 2 thors to defend your base + prevent tanks from getting sniped 2) scan (or drop) to see when they're going hive - normally mutas will delay hive tech to around 18-19 minutes but some Zergs make like 9 mutas and hive rush (not what you're taking about in every case). If they're rushing hive you want your push to be more aggressive (push faster, banelings probably won't be morphing until your start your push in this case). Always stim a few marines in front of your army and don't get caught unsieged of course. Also make sure to watch for counters on your 3rd when you finally move out with a well placed bunker + depots. You should be moving out as you take your 4th base. 3) Have a good defensive position around your nat/3rd with ~10 marines in your main till you're going to move out with 2/2/1. Maybe keep one of your thors in your main too till you're ready to move out, along with ~10 marines. The thor + a few well placed turrets + rallied marines should hold must muta numbers. There's no reason for your tanks to be unsieged until you're moving out. 4) Drop carefully, but you can still drop on the outside of the map where the mutas are to pull them out. 5) Some Zergs stay on lair tech of ling/muta/bling all game- just gotta get a 2/2/1 army, move out. Trade as well as you can and macro up another decent army and trade again. As your upgrades get better you just trade better and better. -Also what I do and I'm not sure if this is the best advice is before I move out I add a few more turrets at my main and my 3rd, and take all the units out (most importantly I take the thor out). Hard to say more without seeing a replay. Hope this helps a bit. | ||
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aviator116
United States820 Posts
On November 26 2012 12:08 teamamerica wrote: Nah you just lack reading comprehension. Since we're both talking about The sentence I'm referring says With no reference to seeing ling roaches. I'm not trying to be a dick about this, I'm just sure that's what that sentence means, regardless of whether that's what he meant or not, anyone reading it shouldn't assume you're seeing roaches. If you're going to criticize me at least learn to read? I guess I should've been more clear in saying that "if you watch all pro games where a Terran sees no 3rd by 6, they won't go for hellion-banshee, they'll make tanks first, which even unsieged are a hell of a lot better than hellions. See Violet vs MMA IEM Kiev." I was adding on to the idea that if you spotted roaches, and didn't see a 3rd/4th gas, you wouldn't do etc.And you did confuse me quite a bit until you pointed out that particular segment of my post. Although it is worthwhile noting that in some of Taeja's replays if he sees no third, he'll automatically go for tanks right after the factory finishes, and skip banshees in favor of medivacs and more barracks, and take a delayed, though still relatively fast 3rd base. But yes, you are coming off as a major dick... | ||
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govie
9334 Posts
I feel a bit stupid to ask this, but i searched the net and youtube again with no luck. I hope u peeps can help "the noob" out again  On my lvl (bronzeleague), ive noticed that ravens are fun and effective against terrans and zerg. Im doing 1rax FE build allways with terran atm (like it was suggested to me in this thread). After that, i scan alot and depending on the info, i sometimes build 3 starports and 4 refineries asap and go for a 100% ravenattack first, so i save my ground army for when all upgrades are at max. It works pretty well, the raven/turret only have 4 upgrades on lvl 1 that can be researched simultaneously and thus the turrets are 100% effective early in the game. I've noticed that with only 5/6 ravens you can do alot of damage, like take out two bases with ease. And its fun to watch your opponent battle drones and turrets for 30 seconds and then shits himself for doing that when 5 more drop... priceless! haha My question is about the micromanagement of a group of ravens. My ravens are selected as a group, but when i plant turrets, the ravens fly in different directions. In utubevids i see groups of ravens going in a straight path and plant turrets and fly along that path as a group. Now that looks cool and is even more effective, but how do i execute that command ingame? thx in advance, govie | ||
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teamamerica
United States958 Posts
On November 26 2012 12:17 aviator116 wrote: I guess I should've been more clear in saying that "if you watch all pro games where a Terran sees no 3rd by 6, they won't go for hellion-banshee, they'll make tanks first, which even unsieged are a hell of a lot better than hellions. See Violet vs MMA IEM Kiev." I was adding on to the idea that if you spotted roaches, and didn't see a 3rd/4th gas, you wouldn't do etc.And you did confuse me quite a bit until you pointed out that particular segment of my post. Although it is worthwhile noting that in some of Taeja's replays if he sees no third, he'll automatically go for tanks right after the factory finishes, and skip banshees in favor of medivacs and more barracks, and take a delayed, though still relatively fast 3rd base. But yes, you are coming off as a major dick... Final post on this but why? A normal understanding of your post makes it seem like skipping hellion/banshee directly for tanks is a good move when you don't see a 3rd. But that's wrong by Vers standards (see here), who I'll trust more then you- sure Taeja and Gumiho do it but if you see posts in the Pro Terran Q/A Ver advocates strongly against doing that. I don't understand why I'm being a dick for pointing that out - I'm sure I'm not the only one who interpreted your post that way (see no 3rd, skip tanks). As Whatson so kindly pointed out the point of this thread isn't to be nice and agree with things that are generally wrong but to point it out, so I did! If they're going speedling upgrades or two hatch muta and you blindly go tank you're just letting the Zerg get away with a worse build for no reason. Sure skipping hellions is easy for you but even a diamond Zerg can hit all his injects for 10 minutes if you're putting on no pressure at all and then you wonder how there are 14 minute broods? Besides going pure bio/tank means you better micro that bio super well because you're effectively putting all your eggs into that one timing push and if it doesn't do enough you're dead, while hellion banshee gives you more opportunity to punish a Zerg. | ||
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Mia
75 Posts
Things he use: A lot of 4gates Blink stalker allins warp prism 4gates. Different variants of dt's(warprism, sentry illusion ) Basic 1-1-1 into 3-1-1, seems ok, except its not so good versus warprism allin and blink stalkers. I think doing 2rax opening into 3-1-1 might be able to hold everything. What is your suggestion? This is mid/high master. | ||
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JonIrenicus
Italy602 Posts
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Mia
75 Posts
On November 26 2012 18:13 JonIrenicus wrote: Sincerely, before I would stop playing Starcraft thanks to university studies,at high master, I used 1-1-1 only If I saw two gas from the protoss opponent (and so that meant something fishy was going on). Anyway, 1-1-1 should be able to repel all these all-ins you just listed. You just need to tweak the build according to what the protoss does. 4 gates? Add one bunker top of the ramp, 3 scv repairing, wait for tank to have siege Blink stalker? Siege + raven (to avoid him rushing to dt) warp prism 4 gates ( you need to add your 2 rax asap and to check all the corners of your base. As soon as he warps unit pull your scvs and use them to tank the damage. As soon as you will have the tank\banshee combo, it's going to be over. The only problem you have is that you gotta have minimap awareness. If you let him warp too much, it is game over). I also suggest you to practice 1 rax fe. I know how to do 1rax fe, i am just kinda inactive/coming back to activity and atm im at job so i dont really have time to practice for this match, just looking for safest way/highest winrate to play againts his agresive style. Against normal fe tosses i do 2base timing marine/tank/helion/banshee with which i beat grandmaster toss players before going inactive like 5 month back(i had 70-80% winrate tvp). So i would do that build against him if he tryed to macro. | ||
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RMonkeyF
46 Posts
I've been noticing about 50/50 from pro games and am a bit confused. | ||
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iamhope
Afghanistan51 Posts
On November 26 2012 23:55 RMonkeyF wrote: Is it still more economical to go 16 oc or is it back to 15 cc now? I've been noticing about 50/50 from pro games and am a bit confused. IMO is almost the same shit, but i would say 15cc is more economical... But the decision is personal prefference based on enemy being agressive or not. If he's more agressive, make the barracks to make sure u're gonna take your expansion faster, because if you do the cc in your ramp, then the barracks, it will take some time to get off ramp. Barracks first gives you marines to control yuor natural faster in case he 9 pools. | ||
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JonIrenicus
Italy602 Posts
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GARcher
Canada294 Posts
On November 27 2012 05:18 JonIrenicus wrote: Was I a fool going for 1 rax fe without getting orbital first, going asap for cc, making scv non stop until I could make the orbital on the first cc then getting my first marine? It is stupid. You are basically pushing the boundary on being greedy and inviting any decent opponent to all in you. | ||
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Hero1
135 Posts
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GARcher
Canada294 Posts
On November 26 2012 17:27 Mia wrote: I wanted to ask what is best and most safest build againts aggressive toss allins. I will have to play 1 player in upcoming match, and i met him countless times on ladder and he always cheezed allined me. Things he use: A lot of 4gates Blink stalker allins warp prism 4gates. Different variants of dt's(warprism, sentry illusion ) Basic 1-1-1 into 3-1-1, seems ok, except its not so good versus warprism allin and blink stalkers. I think doing 2rax opening into 3-1-1 might be able to hold everything. What is your suggestion? This is mid/high master. 1 rax FE against 4 gate. It's hard to hold a 4 gate on one base. Throw down a ton of bunkers and position your SCVs so they don't get forcefielded away. If possible, snipe sentries. Against blink stalkers you want to get marauder slow ASAP so once he burns his blink he can't peel his stalkers away. Save scans to deny observers as well. Warp prism 4 gates just scan at 5:20-5:40 then put down bunkers in main and send an SCV out to patrol. Pull SCVs back and lift orbital as he's pushing out. A much easier thing to do is when you suspect him of doing something cheesy, go 2 rax. | ||
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