EPTfor the bunker placement in TvZ after a 1 rax fe, I saw a wonderfull image explaining the placement of the bunker and the supply depots. Unfortunately I can't find it back, I don't remember if it was in this thread. Anyone has information on this? Thanks a lot!
The Terran Help Me Thread - Page 381
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gondolin
France332 Posts
for the bunker placement in TvZ after a 1 rax fe, I saw a wonderfull image explaining the placement of the bunker and the supply depots. Unfortunately I can't find it back, I don't remember if it was in this thread. Anyone has information on this? Thanks a lot! | ||
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Lunden
Denmark79 Posts
On October 17 2012 15:50 dynwar7 wrote: Since hellion banshee is becoming common in TvZ, what about hellion marauder? I think its very strong and MMA used it yesterday in NASL. Does anyone have the build order for that? Could you provide a link to the replay. Im very interested in that play since many zergs defend hellion push with 4 queens or so nullifying the banshee. Having marauders instead i imagine you can deal a alot better with queens | ||
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InfusedLau
18 Posts
On October 18 2012 06:11 Lunden wrote: Could you provide a link to the replay. Im very interested in that play since many zergs defend hellion push with 4 queens or so nullifying the banshee. Having marauders instead i imagine you can deal a alot better with queens Here is a replay of marauders and hellions against a zerg, it isn't the latest version but nothing has changed since then. Replay Hope it helps. | ||
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Bwall
Sweden145 Posts
On October 18 2012 02:25 MonDeW wrote: Hey guys! I'm having a little trouble defending against the marine/medivac/hellion timing when im going for 14 cc or a banshee followup when i'm one rax expanding, and i would like to hear what you guys do against it. It's probably my number one reason of defeat in TvT atm. Thanks! If you see that he has gas you should think twice about going for banshees after your 1 rax fe. Pretty much every game he's going to be aggressive, and the banshee has a very limited defensive potential. If you follow up with gas I'd recommend tanks or reactor hellion+vikings. | ||
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Hero1
135 Posts
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InfusedLau
18 Posts
On October 18 2012 18:41 Hero1 wrote: How do I deal best with this concussive shells marauder proxy in TvT? Lets say I go for gas first elevator play and scout gas but no rax in his base. Do I have to build a bunker on top of my ramp or can I hold this effectively with pulling a couple SCVs? Because if I do the former, he'll build a bunker on my nat, delay my expansion and macro up himself, setting me behind if I don't to critical damage with my forces. Building a bunker and then teching straight for banshees especially if you went gas first is a good move. Your opponent will have to build additional barracks before making any marines back at home and if he decided to expand first before the barracks your banshee should be able to do a good amount of damage with a bit of micro. Pulling a couple of SCVs and fighting it head on will usually end up with you trading inefficiently because he is fully mining and concussive shells make it easy to kite your units. | ||
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heha
Australia425 Posts
On October 18 2012 19:29 InfusedLau wrote: Building a bunker and then teching straight for banshees especially if you went gas first is a good move. Your opponent will have to build additional barracks before making any marines back at home and if he decided to expand first before the barracks your banshee should be able to do a good amount of damage with a bit of micro. Pulling a couple of SCVs and fighting it head on will usually end up with you trading inefficiently because he is fully mining and concussive shells make it easy to kite your units. When I opn 1 rax CC, I'm a fan of pulling 5 scvs to my nat to give the nat bunker time to get up. Doesn't really put me that far behind. If you did open gas first, yeah I'd advise just bunkering at the top. Your banshee should do enough damage that you don't have to worry about being behind. | ||
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dynwar7
1983 Posts
And he played super good. Makes me wonder....why don't more Terrans use banshees and tanks in tvp? Yes I saw how quickly tanks got destroyed in one of his games, but perhaps better protection by the bio and positioning would've prevented that. So, Ver, do you think that tanks are viable in TvP? They get destroyed quickly by storm...colossi....zealots...imortal etc but as long as they are safe/protected by MMM, they should be ok to use? And what is your view on banshees on tvp not only for probe harass but also in big fights? | ||
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
On October 18 2012 20:59 dynwar7 wrote: If you saw the Gumiho vs Trap today in GSL Code A, Gumiho used banshees and tanks to compliment his bio force. And he played super good. Makes me wonder....why don't more Terrans use banshees and tanks in tvp? Yes I saw how quickly tanks got destroyed in one of his games, but perhaps better protection by the bio and positioning would've prevented that. So, Ver, do you think that tanks are viable in TvP? They get destroyed quickly by storm...colossi....zealots...imortal etc but as long as they are safe/protected by MMM, they should be ok to use? And what is your view on banshees on tvp not only for probe harass but also in big fights? I'm not Ver but from my use of Banshees + Tanks in TvP, I've found that it's pretty hard to incoporate them into a bio army for a few reasons 1) They take a lot of gas, and it's a bit hard when you get that + medivacs + upgrades + actual bio units + powering up... etc you get what I mean 2) It's really easy to get caught out of position, like super easy that means that there are some builds that have really great timings, but I don't think they'll be something that'll be in a normal bio army. (also you should check Rain vs Last in OSL semi finals, the first 3-4 games I believe had tanks in there) | ||
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
I'm sure it's more difficult to pull off, but usually if something is thinner and more challenging, there's a high chance it's better. | ||
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Sajiki
Germany522 Posts
im liking the gas first fast cloak banshee opening in tvt. the only thing that troubles me (my banshee micro is decent) are hellion marine elevators especially on small maps. i usually scan around 5:30 and i see hes doing this. at this time my banshee is usually just started and i have 3-4 marines, a techlab on my starport and a naked factory and rax. what should i do to prevent me from taking damage? I considered: tech lab on rax and 1-2 marauders keep banshee at home and build another one build viking asap? usually im fine with pulling scvs but he will get his expo up faster and can prepare for the banshees with a viking so im definitely behind. | ||
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InfusedLau
18 Posts
On October 18 2012 23:20 Sajiki wrote: hello. im liking the gas first fast cloak banshee opening in tvt. the only thing that troubles me (my banshee micro is decent) are hellion marine elevators especially on small maps. i usually scan around 5:30 and i see hes doing this. at this time my banshee is usually just started and i have 3-4 marines, a techlab on my starport and a naked factory and rax. what should i do to prevent me from taking damage? I considered: tech lab on rax and 1-2 marauders keep banshee at home and build another one build viking asap? usually im fine with pulling scvs but he will get his expo up faster and can prepare for the banshees with a viking so im definitely behind. If you scout your opponent taking gas then I think you might want to get a viking first to be super safe. However you can also build marines and hellions non-stop from your barracks and factory and by the time he attacks he should not be able to do that much damage. If you decide to build hellions and marines it should be fine to build your banshee before the viking as you will have a good amount of units. Combine 2 banshees and a viking with a group of marines, hellions and a few scvs on auto repair for a powerful attack force. | ||
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Kasu
United Kingdom345 Posts
On October 18 2012 03:56 gondolin wrote: Hi all, for the bunker placement in TvZ after a 1 rax fe, I saw a wonderfull image explaining the placement of the bunker and the supply depots. Unfortunately I can't find it back, I don't remember if it was in this thread. Anyone has information on this? Thanks a lot! Don't think I can help with the image itself, but try watching Demuslim's stream/VODs. (http://www.twitch.tv/demuslim/videos) He goes 1-rax FE quite a lot vs zerg. | ||
Ver
United States2186 Posts
On October 18 2012 20:59 dynwar7 wrote: If you saw the Gumiho vs Trap today in GSL Code A, Gumiho used banshees and tanks to compliment his bio force. And he played super good. Makes me wonder....why don't more Terrans use banshees and tanks in tvp? Yes I saw how quickly tanks got destroyed in one of his games, but perhaps better protection by the bio and positioning would've prevented that. So, Ver, do you think that tanks are viable in TvP? They get destroyed quickly by storm...colossi....zealots...imortal etc but as long as they are safe/protected by MMM, they should be ok to use? And what is your view on banshees on tvp not only for probe harass but also in big fights? Banshees are really strong TvP, if only for the moment. Long term it's hard to tell, but possibly not. They are very useful for getting the Protoss out of his comfort zone and letting you dictate the pace of the game. They are more risky though and expose you to more coinflip scenarios on certain maps, which is why they are mostly used on larger maps where robo based allins are not as strong. Basically Protoss have had to play against one dominant style of Terran for over a year now (rax expand into bio/medivac) and opening banshees gives you more initiative and makes it harder for him to set up his perfect drop defense that is all too common nowadays. The general thought on tanks is that they are really strong before charge is out and bad after, especially as getting tanks means you are cutting marine upgrades to some degree, which means that when he reaches +2 armor his zealots will just massacre your army. I've experimented with mid-lategame tank play a fair amount and found that it's just not very good  . The main problem really comes down to zealots. Tanks can focus fire certain ranged units but they cant move and thus sit there tanking zealots, when normally you'd be kiting to avoid zealot damage. You have to pull your marines behind the tanks to avoid dying to storm/colo, but then the zealots just destroy everything. In short, tanks would need to be 2 supply to make them worthwhile in later armies. If, and this is a big if, you somehow get 20+ tanks in your army they actually become pretty strong, but then you begin to have issues with reinforcements (such as winning a battle with 12~ tanks left over and losing them to a 20 mid-battle zealot warpin). | ||
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PainkillerSC
Portugal7 Posts
On October 18 2012 22:28 ineversmile wrote: Banshees and factory units are a giant pain in the neck, from the Protoss side of the fence. Instead of dealing with ground units and dropships, now I have to deal with something that shoots from there air, something that shoots from long range, and fast harassment units that can kill a dozen probes in the blink of an eye. What scares me in PvT isn't standard Bio play or a 1-1-1 or marine-scv pain-trains; it's someone who uses factory units and a tech lab on their Starport to gain an advantage, then transitions to a macro game. I'm sure it's more difficult to pull off, but usually if something is thinner and more challenging, there's a high chance it's better. (i'm just some lowly high plat terran but i feel it applies) I've been opening with 2-3 hellions in pretty much every TvP i've played and i have ALWAYS had success with it. Even vs 4gates, 3 gate robo, anything really. If the P doesn't have a sentry for FF at his ramp, i can, without any compromise, either do damage or delay the all-in greatly | ||
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Sianos
580 Posts
On October 19 2012 02:33 PainkillerSC wrote: (i'm just some lowly high plat terran but i feel it applies) I've been opening with 2-3 hellions in pretty much every TvP i've played and i have ALWAYS had success with it. Even vs 4gates, 3 gate robo, anything really. If the P doesn't have a sentry for FF at his ramp, i can, without any compromise, either do damage or delay the all-in greatly Well i would question whether you can do enough damage with that kind of build against a competent player to compensate your late expandtion. He´ll definitely scout your hellions with his stalker or zealot and this gives him enough time to prepare for it, so that he takes a minimal amount of losses while you are loosing 3 hellions and have your expandtion later than him if he goes 1 gate fe, what most protoss in higher leagues do. Then he can just chronoboost his probes and build stalker to defend your harass and he´ll end up ahead. | ||
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padfoota
Taiwan1571 Posts
On October 18 2012 22:28 ineversmile wrote: Banshees and factory units are a giant pain in the neck, from the Protoss side of the fence. Instead of dealing with ground units and dropships, now I have to deal with something that shoots from there air, something that shoots from long range, and fast harassment units that can kill a dozen probes in the blink of an eye. What scares me in PvT isn't standard Bio play or a 1-1-1 or marine-scv pain-trains; it's someone who uses factory units and a tech lab on their Starport to gain an advantage, then transitions to a macro game. I'm sure it's more difficult to pull off, but usually if something is thinner and more challenging, there's a high chance it's better. Im finding hellion-banshee openers to be stronger and stronger in all matchups...:/ Even in TvP a good amount of hellions and some banshees just takes the map so hard On October 19 2012 03:15 Sianos wrote: Well i would question whether you can do enough damage with that kind of build against a competent player to compensate your late expandtion. He´ll definitely scout your hellions with his stalker or zealot and this gives him enough time to prepare for it, so that he takes a minimal amount of losses while you are loosing 3 hellions and have your expandtion later than him if he goes 1 gate fe, what most protoss in higher leagues do. Then he can just chronoboost his probes and build stalker to defend your harass and he´ll end up ahead. Basically once he hits that wall hes going to find out about those hellion drops, then incorporating 8 marine poke, then switching to 8 marine drop into RUN-HELLIONS-UP-RAMP-JUST-AS-HE-MOVES-ALL-PROBES-TO-NAT-FOR-SANCTUARY-AND-PROBE-BBQ-PARTY And then after hitting that wall - wait Mvp still uses it... | ||
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GumBa
United Kingdom31935 Posts
It seems the moment Zerg has BL/Infestor out its gg so I am going to show you guys a bunch of replays and hopefully you can tell me what I can do. Yes I know my macro suck and so on Im only Platinum so don expect wonders. Oh and please ignore the bm or floating buildings its just im so frustrated at the moment in TvZ that in rage I do dumb shit sry. Ok ignore the replay the moment I float Buildings at the end http://drop.sc/265997 This game just straight up made me sad. Ok in this one I play against ultra based play just to show you guys my other TvZ side http://drop.sc/265998 Another game http://drop.sc/265998 And another game just generally showcasing my TvZ http://drop.sc/266000 Thank you for reading and please help me I take critisiscm well and Im willing to change builds styles anything. Thx for Reading GumBa | ||
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Tactical
United States77 Posts
I feel like even if I had used less scv's to try to delay his pylons/gates I still would have lost even if I got my barracks up quicker. Diamond Terran vs. Masters Toss, I'd like to not lose to this again. O_o Here's the replay: http://drop.sc/266043 | ||
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malaan
365 Posts
On October 19 2012 19:18 Tactical wrote: What's the proper way to hold against a proxy 2 gate? I feel like even if I had used less scv's to try to delay his pylons/gates I still would have lost even if I got my barracks up quicker. Diamond Terran vs. Masters Toss, I'd like to not lose to this again. O_o Here's the replay: http://drop.sc/266043 Start building a bunker in your mineral line. Start building 2 if you spotted it late. Rally your baracks away so the marines can run around until the bunker is complete. It's that easy. If you scout the gateway warping in at below 40% complete, pull 5-6 scvs and attack the gateway. Ignore the pylons. SCVS should kill the gateway before a zealot pops out even if he chronoboosts. | ||
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