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On October 16 2012 19:55 Fjodorov wrote:There is a thread about bio play in TvZ: Only Bio in TvZ!It based around constant aggression starting out with 1 rax gasless expand followed up by 2 additional rax, gas and a combat shield timing. My question is if anyone has tryed this against protoss? Do you find that its possible to do damage with this combat shield timing? I guess you would have to be on top of your scouting to make sure you dont get caught out on the map by some gateway pressure timing but with the current meta revolving alot around greed (atleast in my level, diamond) im interested in knowing if somebody has tryed this.
I can speak from the other side of the equation, as a Mid-Masters toss. Basically, the difference between Combat Shields and no combat shields boils down to exactly one stalker shot less to kill a marine, so it protects them while they're being kited across the map. If you do this same type of push from that build (I believe it was 1rax FE into 4 guys in 2 gases and 3 rax into a pure marine attack with combat shields), then you're looking at having some more resilience as you move across the map and as you fight, but your DPS isn't going to push you through fights when you hit at that timing. Protoss will basically split your army up and kill the half that goes up the ramp while losing just energy and less resource investment than you, and he knows exactly what's coming because he kited you across the map and he'll know it was a gasless FE into combat shields so you can't be doing some kind of Hellion drop in the main or something else that's cheeky.
I mean, against Stalkers, you don't have stim or concussive shells and you don't even have range 6 units, so stalkers can kite you out on the map. Zealots have to do one more hit to your marines, but because you don't have stim or a weapons upgrade advantage over their armor, Zealots with Guardian Shield will look at that extra hit and not care, since they're just so tough for pure unstimmed marine to deal with at 4 damage per hit to shields and 3 damage per hit to hull. And then sentries...well, aside from the aforementioned Guardian Shield, all it takes is 2 very simple forcefields to split you army up and leave half of it dead in the water without an escape path--and because you have no air units or drops to elevator out of the forcefields, you're basically screwed if you attack into a choke point--and maps are specifically designed to have choke points and ramps so that there's a point in the game where aggression like this no longer works for a while, based on concaves or walking into baneling aoe or, in this case, forcefield traps. That changes a lot if you have medivacs, or if you had something long-ranged like Tanks that could support the isolated units, but for this timing you're not going to have a good day if the protoss makes even 30% strength forcefields.
Plus, you're hitting right around the time when Protoss has warpgates available from Nexus First. I mean, it's cool to see some non-standard move-outs, but that's more of an anti-timing for you than a timing because there should be a couple sentries and warpgate tech finishing up right there and then--not to mention whatever gates are finishing. I'm trying to think of more fringe situations about how else combat shields interact with protoss at that point in time, and if there's an immortal out (for whatever reason; maybe the toss is low on gateway count and just wants to make units as he sees the push coming or maybe he was going for a bust), 45 health and 55 health don't change the 3 shots needed for an immortal to kill a marine without medivac backup. I guess if I have DTs it's kind of annoying that they don't 1-shot your marines anymore, but I think if I'm in DT tech there's more stuff going on in the big picture, like how you're going to be powering out a lot less because of the mules you can't drop in a non 3OC build, so with DTs I might have less units for the push, but I can still see a couple forcefields holding off your army while I trade DTs for scans and at worst pull probes from my natural to my main while I wait for that inevitable moment when you run out of scans and I send one last DT in to clean up your army.
Anyways, I just think there are reasons why Combat Shields timings are not that relevant to TvP. For the other 2 matchups, they totally make sense because damage comes in smaller increments and there's earlier AoE coming from the other 2 races, but from Protoss it's just not the same. That's my take on it.
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Does anyone have any replays with auto-turret harass? I want to make a funny image comparing the raven to the oracle, but it's so hard to find a good image of workers running away from auto-turrets. If you can link me to a replay with some raven harass where the players are good enough to actually run the workers away, I'll take care of the rest. Also, replays are preferred over VODs so I can get a better screenshot.
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Hey everyone. I'm just wondering about playing on Cloud Kingdom. Right out side your natural there is a cliff that the zerg can put an overlord and basically see your entire natural. I'm wondering how you guys deal with that. Do you lift a barracks and ty to get sight and kill it? or do you just leave it there. I played a game where I did a combat shield marine timing attack, but since he had his overlord there he was able to see me coming right as I left my base.
I've tried hiding all my marines at the far side of my natural where he can't see them with his ovie, but I'm just wondering what you guys think I should do.
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On October 17 2012 02:36 kcdc wrote:
Does anyone have any replays with auto-turret harass? I want to make a funny image comparing the raven to the oracle, but it's so hard to find a good image of workers running away from auto-turrets. If you can link me to a replay with some raven harass where the players are good enough to actually run the workers away, I'll take care of the rest. Also, replays are preferred over VODs so I can get a better screenshot.
lol I got a weird one in TvT where I raven + viking snipe a floating third CC and the workers coming to repair/build turrets and they are running from the auto turrets I drop.
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Hello everyone, i have recently switched to Terran from Zerg. Now my problem is that i use Number 5 as a hotkey for all my structures and tab through my Barracks > Factory > Starport.
My hands are really small, i can barely reach number 6 with my pinky on the shift key
Now i'm wondering whether this is a really bad habit that i should get rid of or, is it fine to play like this?
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On October 17 2012 04:47 Wob wrote:
Hello everyone, i have recently switched to Terran from Zerg. Now my problem is that i use Number 5 as a hotkey for all my structures and tab through my Barracks > Factory > Starport.
My hands are really small, i can barely reach number 6 with my pinky on the shift key
Now i'm wondering whether this is a really bad habit that i should get rid of or, is it fine to play like this?
5 - AAA...
6 - SSS...
7 - DDD...
vs.
5 - AAA...
Tab - SSS...
Tab - DDD...
I don't really see a difference. Your preference I would say.
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On October 17 2012 04:29 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 02:36 kcdc wrote:
Does anyone have any replays with auto-turret harass? I want to make a funny image comparing the raven to the oracle, but it's so hard to find a good image of workers running away from auto-turrets. If you can link me to a replay with some raven harass where the players are good enough to actually run the workers away, I'll take care of the rest. Also, replays are preferred over VODs so I can get a better screenshot. lol I got a weird one in TvT where I raven + viking snipe a floating third CC and the workers coming to repair/build turrets and they are running from the auto turrets I drop.
Thanks to iAmJeffRey. For those curious, this is what I wanted to put together with the screenshot.
The Oracle From a Balance Perspective
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Hi there.
Up until gold I've managed to play most of my games with standard rax->expand->2xrax->2gas in TvT with acceptable successes. Recently, however it feels like my Terran opponents are going for one-base play with some marines, tanks and 1-2 Vikings and I simply die to that.
I am wondering if it is possible to counter such early one base pushes while still going for an early expand? Usually I only have some Marines, factory is done and maybe I have a starport but I don't have the siege tech or any vikings to deny his sight. Should I go for something like rax->gas->fac and research siege tech before getting my expand?
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On October 17 2012 02:36 kcdc wrote:
Does anyone have any replays with auto-turret harass? I want to make a funny image comparing the raven to the oracle, but it's so hard to find a good image of workers running away from auto-turrets. If you can link me to a replay with some raven harass where the players are good enough to actually run the workers away, I'll take care of the rest. Also, replays are preferred over VODs so I can get a better screenshot.
Fuzer vs Ret if thats high level enough for you 
map is Ohana, replay is on gosugamers but the site is down atm, can fix a link when its back up!
Its pretty much : Fuzer opens 2rax pressure and goes into raven harass into mass marine/marauder
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On October 17 2012 07:28 yaxv wrote:
Hi there.
Up until gold I've managed to play most of my games with standard rax->expand->2xrax->2gas in TvT with acceptable successes. Recently, however it feels like my Terran opponents are going for one-base play with some marines, tanks and 1-2 Vikings and I simply die to that.
I am wondering if it is possible to counter such early one base pushes while still going for an early expand? Usually I only have some Marines, factory is done and maybe I have a starport but I don't have the siege tech or any vikings to deny his sight. Should I go for something like rax->gas->fac and research siege tech before getting my expand?
I'm doing 12 rax 15 gas 2 marine reactor FE into 1-1-1, or 3-1-1. If I see gasless FE, I go 3-1-1, if I see them on 1 base, I go 1-1-1, get a raven, 2 vikings, and start tank production as I drop 2 more raxes, one reactor, one tech lab to end with a normal 3-1-1 off 2 base.
It holds most anything very closely if you scout properly. Use auto turrets, and vikings if need be to thwart the siege tank push. Land vikings behind tanks, drop a turret or two, and use marines and scvs with box spread to take out his push. Pulling scvs is not a bad thing to do as you're on 2 base 2 oc to 1 base 1-1-1. Once you get siege, and maintain your base, you win. You will have more production, stim, siege, and a raven/vikings possibly still alive to drop any drops or banshee attacks.
Gas first into cloak banshee will give you trouble, as you won't have the raven out in time. So 14 scv scout and you can see if that's the case.
A replay or two showing it. And preface -- yes I do BM often, only against mech players. They get my blood boiling lol
http://drop.sc/265015 vs 900 pt terran doing proxy marauder -> mech + air
http://drop.sc/265438 vs very nooby terran
http://drop.sc/265439 vs terran friend on exion ~800 pts
I'm still rusty. Been away from the game for a while, just getting back into it this season.
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Hey iAmJeffReY
I am about to hit the bed so will have to study your replies tomorrow but just wanted to say thanks for your reply so far. :-) But basically a 1-1-1 could harrass the enemy before he moves out to hammer on my natural?
I've never thought about pulling SCVs, it just makes an early expo meaningless since you could potentially get hit so hard you're effectively mining on a single base.
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On October 17 2012 07:28 yaxv wrote:
Hi there.
Up until gold I've managed to play most of my games with standard rax->expand->2xrax->2gas in TvT with acceptable successes. Recently, however it feels like my Terran opponents are going for one-base play with some marines, tanks and 1-2 Vikings and I simply die to that.
I am wondering if it is possible to counter such early one base pushes while still going for an early expand? Usually I only have some Marines, factory is done and maybe I have a starport but I don't have the siege tech or any vikings to deny his sight. Should I go for something like rax->gas->fac and research siege tech before getting my expand?
There are a number of ways for you to defend a 1/1/1.
always try to keep control of the watchtowers and any lanes to see incoming attacks
If you went 1 rax fe into 3 rax combat shield you can:
1) pull about 6 scvs to bum rush him before he reaches your ramp, sometimes you will be able to crush the attack easily other times just forcing him to constantly siege and unsiege in order to slow his push and by the time he gets to your base you should have enough troops and scvs to overwhelm his army
2) you can constantly repair the bunker/bunkers and wait for medicvacs to come out and flank the army
if you went 1 rax fe into double gas into 1/1/1 you can:
1) you can constantly repair the bunker/bunkers and wait for your own siege tech, tank and viking to finish and deflect the attack as his viking does not have the benefit of repairing scvs and marines in bunker to protect it
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On October 17 2012 07:45 yaxv wrote:
Hey iAmJeffReY
I am about to hit the bed so will have to study your replies tomorrow but just wanted to say thanks for your reply so far. :-) But basically a 1-1-1 could harrass the enemy before he moves out to hammer on my natural?
I've never thought about pulling SCVs, it just makes an early expo meaningless since you could potentially get hit so hard you're effectively mining on a single base.
And so is he. But you have 2 OCs for mules. 1-1-1 vs 1-1-1 is very flippy as to who does the right 1-1-1, and controls it better. The 15 gas sqeezes out an FE and is still safe to like almost any 1-1-1 if you scout and get your own tanks out in time.
You will have the unit count to defend, most times, a marine hellion elevator, or like reactor hellion. Just depots around your base to spot, and be ready to pull scvs. Don't be over eager to engage, let them come to you and get into a bad position and capitalize on it.
Again, it's probably not the most effective, but as I'm just getting back into the game, it's working amazing for me. I was decently high mid masters, if not considered high masters for quite a few seasons. I used to draw quite a few people who I see are now in low GM, or top 4 of masters.
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On October 16 2012 19:55 Fjodorov wrote:There is a thread about bio play in TvZ: Only Bio in TvZ!It based around constant aggression starting out with 1 rax gasless expand followed up by 2 additional rax, gas and a combat shield timing. My question is if anyone has tryed this against protoss? Do you find that its possible to do damage with this combat shield timing? I guess you would have to be on top of your scouting to make sure you dont get caught out on the map by some gateway pressure timing but with the current meta revolving alot around greed (atleast in my level, diamond) im interested in knowing if somebody has tryed this.
I don't remember exactly when it hits but you can do a similar timing if you just build a lot of rax's like 4-5 imo
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Since hellion banshee is becoming common in TvZ, what about hellion marauder? I think its very strong and MMA used it yesterday in NASL.
Does anyone have the build order for that?
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
Are you talking about an all-in, or a transition into a macro game?
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On October 17 2012 16:09 Blazinghand wrote:
Are you talking about an all-in, or a transition into a macro game?
Just a normal opening into macro game. Just like helion banshee into macro or 3rd CC, this time, swap the banshee to marauders.
Happy birthday Blazing btw
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On October 17 2012 16:09 Blazinghand wrote:
Are you talking about an all-in, or a transition into a macro game?
Hope you had a blazing cake
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Hey guys! I'm having a little trouble defending against the marine/medivac/hellion timing when im going for 14 cc or a banshee followup when i'm one rax expanding, and i would like to hear what you guys do against it. It's probably my number one reason of defeat in TvT atm.
Thanks!
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EPT
