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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
About me: Hi TL community, I am a master level player on the AM server. I used to random when the game first came out. I then stopped playing for about a year and now I am back to the game where I choose to play Terran for the most part. I would describe my current skill level as mid-level master.
Background: So lately I have some trouble playing against Protoss. I think I have narrowed down the issue to Micro as in most games I have an advantage in terms of Macro and economy. So I decided to practice my Micro using one of the Unit Tester Map and then I got really confused.
Scenario 1: I setup the AI Protoss army with a regular comp @ 50 food. (The mindset behind this is that I can just let the AI A-move, so no high templar in the comp; and also 50 food of army supply is about the number around 11 minute mark when a Terran would attack with stim medivec timings). I then go choose my own Terran army of regular comp and the same amount of food.
The exact comp for Protoss was: 3 colossus; 8 stalkers; 6 zealots; 1 archon
The exact comp for Terran was: 9 vikings; 8 marauders; 12 marines; 2 medivecs
Then I chose the battlefield to be an open space and let the AI A-move towards me. Then I tried all the Micro I have -- literally target fire the colossus with my vikings, try to kite the zealots and archon with my bio army.
But the result was kind of surprising and disappointing: the AI won with a pretty huge army left.
PS: in terms of upgrades, I had both sides with +3/+3 and vikings at +2 attack
Scenario 2: Another experiment I did was to setup the Protoss army with pure zealots at 30 food. Then I chose a comparable army of bio.
First case: I had some marauders mixed in the army and tried to kite -- the result is I got stomped by the zealots.
Second case: I had pure marines -- finally I got to win the battle.
Questions: In scenario 1, can anyone tell me where I did wrong? For Terran players, can someone go try playing this army comp against an A-moving Protoss AI in the Unit Tester Map and see if you can win over the Protoss? In scenario 2, what I got was that I need high marine counts to win against pure A-moving zealots. But marines are terrible against AOE armies like colossus and storms and marauders seem to get stomped by chargelots. Any tips or ideas? (Final note, please try the Unit Tester Map with the setup before giving advice. Thank a lot!)
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On October 02 2012 13:50 AKomrade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2012 13:25 CyDe wrote:
What's a good build for Terran Mech TvZ? Halby does this thing where he tricks the zerg into thinking that he is going Bio by putting up a few rax at the front after a 1rax expo. He does a lot of aggressive expanding. Then he pretty much goes mass Thor, BF hellion, and banshee. Could someone give me a workable build for that? Taeja has a good transfer into mech from this and Kas, Thorzain and Puma all have different versions for opening mech. I can't give you exact replays but http://www.sc2replays.eu/ is a fantastic place to search. Anything before June is out of date or streamlined already, so look for stuff from the MLG Spring Arena/Gigabyte tournaments up.
Can anyone link me a replay or VOD of said Taeja transfer into mech? I tried search for it on sc2replays and couldn't find it.
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re TvP testmap
I've tried it with no micro on either side (apart from landing the vikings) and terran win every time.
Are you giving protoss +3 sheilds as well? Are you giving them charge?
I gave protoss thermal lance and terran stim/shields and the attack/armor upgrades you suggested.
(although I fail to see how 3/3 represents an 11 minute timing)
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On October 04 2012 03:19 Willzzz wrote:
re TvP testmap
I've tried it with no micro on either side (apart from landing the vikings) and terran win every time.
Are you giving protoss +3 sheilds as well? Are you giving them charge?
I gave protoss thermal lance and terran stim/shields and the attack/armor upgrades you suggested.
(although I fail to see how 3/3 represents an 11 minute timing)
What? In my experiments, I gave them all the upgrades possible, which means zealots with charge, for shields I forgot, but I dont think that matters either +2 or none. There is just no way Terran can win with no micro..., what army comp did you have in your test?
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So I have been having a really tough time in all match-ups lately and the past day or two have just been really beat down my zergs in everyday imaginable. So instead of going CC first ( I get all inned almost every game) I have been going 1 rax expo and going into either mech or bio depending on the map. I attached a dropbox link to my most recent game and I can't figure out quite where i went wrong :/ and frankly neither could my opponent. I seemed to dominate the whole game in complete control and then just loose. I am diamond on all 3 of my accounts.
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/13176102/Daybreak LE (115).SC2Replay
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Exactly the same as you.
But the protoss didn't have charge and didn't have any sheild upgrades.
I'm kinda confused whether you are trying to simulate an early game battle or a late game battle.
OK, tried it with charge, that does make protoss win (even with only 6 zealots).
I don't think what you are trying to simulate is that realisitc, if it is a late game clash you need to have much larger armies.
I'd just play more games and practice micro that way. You need to include terrain and you need to have more typical army compositions.
In terms of actual micro advice I'd say this:
- Try to force the enemy colossus into positions where they can be sniped (e.g. moving between natural and third on maps like entombed, cloud kingdom and tal'darim)
- Micro small groups of units on your flanks to either wrap around or kite back (depending on situation)
- Try to engage in favourable locations, especially when dealing with lots of chargelots.
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On October 04 2012 03:55 Willzzz wrote:
Exactly the same as you.
But the protoss didn't have charge and didn't have any sheild upgrades.
I'm kinda confused whether you are trying to simulate an early game battle or a late game battle.
OK, tried it with charge, that does make protoss win (even with only 6 zealots).
I don't think what you are trying to simulate is that realisitc, if it is a late game clash you need to have much larger armies.
I'd just play more games and practice micro that way. You need to include terrain and you need to have more typical army compositions.
In terms of actual micro advice I'd say this:
- Try to force the enemy colossus into positions where they can be sniped (e.g. moving between natural and third on maps like entombed, cloud kingdom and tal'darim)
- Micro small groups of units on your flanks to either wrap around or kite back (depending on situation)
- Try to engage in favourable locations, especially when dealing with lots of chargelots.
The point I was trying to simulate is a battle with equal army and equal upgrades, and it seems that i cannot win in an open space with reasonable amount of Micro against an A-moving Protoss... something I found pretty surprising. And moreover, the Scenario 2 was even worse: seems that I cannot even trade efficiently against pure zealots with regular army comp. All the evidence points to the conclusion that TvP late game is almost as bad as hopeless...
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On October 04 2012 03:49 RedLeaderDKM wrote:So I have been having a really tough time in all match-ups lately and the past day or two have just been really beat down my zergs in everyday imaginable. So instead of going CC first ( I get all inned almost every game) I have been going 1 rax expo and going into either mech or bio depending on the map. I attached a dropbox link to my most recent game and I can't figure out quite where i went wrong :/ and frankly neither could my opponent. I seemed to dominate the whole game in complete control and then just loose. I am diamond on all 3 of my accounts. https://dl.dropbox.com/u/13176102/Daybreak LE (115).SC2Replay
This is a serious suggestion, try chatting less, there are gaps in your early game build where it should be perfect.
The big mistake is just not paying attention to what the zerg is making. You are teching really quickly towards an uber T3 terran army when you just shouldn't be. T3 are not always the best units to have.
Try watching the recent Day9 video on how Taeja remaxes his army based on what the zerg opponent is making.
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On October 04 2012 04:02 jason_wujch wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2012 03:55 Willzzz wrote:
Exactly the same as you.
But the protoss didn't have charge and didn't have any sheild upgrades.
I'm kinda confused whether you are trying to simulate an early game battle or a late game battle.
OK, tried it with charge, that does make protoss win (even with only 6 zealots).
I don't think what you are trying to simulate is that realisitc, if it is a late game clash you need to have much larger armies.
I'd just play more games and practice micro that way. You need to include terrain and you need to have more typical army compositions.
In terms of actual micro advice I'd say this:
- Try to force the enemy colossus into positions where they can be sniped (e.g. moving between natural and third on maps like entombed, cloud kingdom and tal'darim)
- Micro small groups of units on your flanks to either wrap around or kite back (depending on situation)
- Try to engage in favourable locations, especially when dealing with lots of chargelots. The point I was trying to simulate is a battle with equal army and equal upgrades, and it seems that i cannot win in an open space with reasonable amount of Micro against an A-moving Protoss... something I found pretty surprising. And moreover, the Scenario 2 was even worse: seems that I cannot even trade efficiently against pure zealots with regular army comp. All the evidence points to the conclusion that TvP late game is almost as bad as hopeless...
You can't come to those conclusions based on testing on a completely open map, it is totally unrealistic.
A lot of people underestimate just how good zealots are, just because they are the most basic protoss unit. But zealots big disadvantage is that they don't work great in large numbers when they can't get surface area.
And yes marines do wreck zealots in large numbers, it is perfectly OK to use marine heavy armies.
Yes marines are squishy but that isn't the fatal flaw you think it is. If your marines are kiting away from the AOE units they won't die, but the zealots will. Also because you have loads of spare gas you can have loads of vikings and ghosts to deal with the units that kill marines.
Terran armies do frequently win late game engagements, you can watch any number of pro games to observe this.
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On October 04 2012 04:22 Willzzz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2012 04:02 jason_wujch wrote:On October 04 2012 03:55 Willzzz wrote:
Exactly the same as you.
But the protoss didn't have charge and didn't have any sheild upgrades.
I'm kinda confused whether you are trying to simulate an early game battle or a late game battle.
OK, tried it with charge, that does make protoss win (even with only 6 zealots).
I don't think what you are trying to simulate is that realisitc, if it is a late game clash you need to have much larger armies.
I'd just play more games and practice micro that way. You need to include terrain and you need to have more typical army compositions.
In terms of actual micro advice I'd say this:
- Try to force the enemy colossus into positions where they can be sniped (e.g. moving between natural and third on maps like entombed, cloud kingdom and tal'darim)
- Micro small groups of units on your flanks to either wrap around or kite back (depending on situation)
- Try to engage in favourable locations, especially when dealing with lots of chargelots. The point I was trying to simulate is a battle with equal army and equal upgrades, and it seems that i cannot win in an open space with reasonable amount of Micro against an A-moving Protoss... something I found pretty surprising. And moreover, the Scenario 2 was even worse: seems that I cannot even trade efficiently against pure zealots with regular army comp. All the evidence points to the conclusion that TvP late game is almost as bad as hopeless... You can't come to those conclusions based on testing on a completely open map, it is totally unrealistic. A lot of people underestimate just how good zealots are, just because they are the most basic protoss unit. But zealots big disadvantage is that they don't work great in large numbers when they can't get surface area. And yes marines do wreck zealots in large numbers, it is perfectly OK to use marine heavy armies. Yes marines are squishy but that isn't the fatal flaw you think it is. If your marines are kiting away from the AOE units they won't die, but the zealots will. Also because you have loads of spare gas you can have loads of vikings and ghosts to deal with the units that kill marines. Terran armies do frequently win late game engagements, you can watch any number of pro games to observe this.
I would argue that an open space is actually what you want as a Terran because otherwise your army would be clumped and stomped by the AOE that Protoss has. The real problem I think is Terran doesn't have efficient method to clean up zealots. It turns out that zealots are really good meat shield and at the same time they do incredible dps to the Terran bio army. The real counter to zealots, which is the marines just die way to fast to colossus and storms, in a realistic battle...
I have watched a couple of pro level TvP and I rarely see Terran wins a battle against Protoss on even foot. If you have seen a good example of a 200 vs 200 engagement where Terran came out ahead, please point me to that reference. Thanks!
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OK try this battle:
96 marines and 18 vikings
vs
32 zealots 16 stalkers and 6 colossus
auto attack on both sides and terran stomps the battle
Now storms can be a problem, just 2 storms are enough to turn the tide of battle, but if you can just a-move with your marines/vikings then you can spend 100% of your attention to your ghosts. Also a protoss will usually have extra supply tied up in probes and observers so have a slightly smaller army (you have mules and scans).
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On October 04 2012 04:49 Willzzz wrote:
OK try this battle:
96 marines and 18 vikings
vs
32 zealots 16 stalkers and 6 colossus
auto attack on both sides and terran stomps the battle
Now storms can be a problem, just 2 storms are enough to turn the tide of battle, but if you can just a-move with your marines/vikings then you can spend 100% of your attention to your ghosts. Also a protoss will usually have extra supply tied up in probes and observers so have a slightly smaller army (you have mules and scans).
I would definitely try this when I get back home and would let you know my thoughts. But this seems a little bit counter-intuitive as I would think the marines would got raped by colossus before the colossus got destroyed by the vikings. But anyway I don't know the result before trying this myself. Thanks for your help though.
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On October 04 2012 03:15 SCRedditor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2012 13:50 AKomrade wrote:On October 02 2012 13:25 CyDe wrote:
What's a good build for Terran Mech TvZ? Halby does this thing where he tricks the zerg into thinking that he is going Bio by putting up a few rax at the front after a 1rax expo. He does a lot of aggressive expanding. Then he pretty much goes mass Thor, BF hellion, and banshee. Could someone give me a workable build for that? Taeja has a good transfer into mech from this and Kas, Thorzain and Puma all have different versions for opening mech. I can't give you exact replays but http://www.sc2replays.eu/ is a fantastic place to search. Anything before June is out of date or streamlined already, so look for stuff from the MLG Spring Arena/Gigabyte tournaments up. Can anyone link me a replay or VOD of said Taeja transfer into mech? I tried search for it on sc2replays and couldn't find it.
Yeah, I have em. I'll edit this post when I've got the ones I used. I can only find two or three replays of Taeja playing mech, but I have the TZain, Kas and Puma reps too.
If you have an NASL pass:
Thorzain opens 3CC before gas and then goes double fact instead of reactor hellion. Ohana.
http://www.nasl.tv/Videos/nasl-season-4-w2-d4-thorzain-vs-vibe-game-1
Roughly the same thing here vs. Sheth on Daybreak:
http://www.sc2replays.eu/show-replay-17843-0-mouzthorzain_t_-vs-liquidsheth_z.html
Kas opens 2Fact into 3rd CC on SP. Same idea as Thorzain, but with a later 3rd CC.
http://www.sc2replays.eu/show-replay-24668-0-empirekas_t_-vs-glsnute_z.html
Taeja 2Rax into 2Fact on CK
http://drop.sc/223483
Taeja goes 1Rax FE into 3CC reactor\hellion
http://drop.sc/261134
This is literally the only replay I could find where he does the transfer.
Puma does a slightly different version of this (since VODs of Puma doing this go back as far as March or so, this may be the progenitor of Taeja's build)
http://www.sc2replays.eu/show-replay-26674-0-egpumarc_t_-vs-egidrarc_z.html
What I did was take Puma's build and that Dreamhack replay and combined them into what I thought it was:
http://drop.sc/261149
http://drop.sc/261151
http://drop.sc/261152
Kas/Thorzain:
http://drop.sc/261150
Oh and Ver's post here + Show Spoiler +On August 19 2012 13:50 Ver wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 13:13 DeKGenetiX wrote:
this is great way to help NA terrans seeing as alot of them have been struggling do to the high skill ceiling it takes to play terran(which is frustrates other zergs and toss causing alot of BMs to terrans) thanks soo much for feedback to help the us lower terrans to improve i was also wondering if you have a 1 rax FE into mech BO you can release
Im using a build order app as a place to store my builds i can do them by heart but its always solid to have them to remind you case your just warming up or need to recheck what supply/timing things need to go down and so far i have a
1 rax expand that naturally transitions to MMM it could tech to Marinetank but its more prone to MMM
another 1 rax FE that naturally transitions to Marinetanks like other open it can go MMM but this is slighty faster and harder to do so im using one to warm up perfect micro and timings so basically i have a
Bio 1 Rax expand
Biomech 1 Rax FE
and just loooking for a mech variant
as i climb to the higher levels i will learn the CC first variants when i start playing masters or high diamond/scrim partners. The most popular mech build is the one Supernova, Kas, and MVP use, which is: Rax CC -> Reactor Hellion -> Cloak Banshee -> CC -> Fact 2x -> Armory 2x You have a lot of potential damage from hellion/banshee, you are safe vs allins, and the banshees are very useful in the midgame to stop the Zerg from bullying you around with roaches. The only downside is your upgrades are very late and if they scout and defend correctly you end up behind. If you see very early mass roach, you can get siege mode first, if not get blue flame. Personally I have always preferred getting an ultra fast armory after the factory finishes to rush +3 attack, thus delaying cloak (or not getting it), with the build otherwise similar. If you are okay stretching your multitasking then I would recommend making a medivac and viking after the 2nd or 3rd banshee and attempting hellion drops as well.
I also had a question. I have a hard time balancing and preparing for TvP engagements vs. Colossi AND templar. The ghost v. templar dance saps a lot of my APM and since I'm so scared of getting my bio ball hit by colossi and the gateway units as I EMP, I mangle everything and get like two EMPs off and then try to concave my army AND attack the colossi with my vikings.
I guess my questions are:
If I AM able to get EMPs on the Protoss army, how do I force an engagement? He just walks away as I stim up after EMPs.
Is it ok to leave my army balled as I position my vikings and do the spellcaster dance?
How am I supposed to react with my MMM?
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People have been saying MVp is well known for his strong defensive play.
Just what is this "defensive" people are talking about? Is it simply having enough tanks for early pressure? Or is ti a combination of having good game sense, timing etc, and having the appropriate defenses for it?
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On October 04 2012 03:49 RedLeaderDKM wrote:So I have been having a really tough time in all match-ups lately and the past day or two have just been really beat down my zergs in everyday imaginable. So instead of going CC first ( I get all inned almost every game) I have been going 1 rax expo and going into either mech or bio depending on the map. I attached a dropbox link to my most recent game and I can't figure out quite where i went wrong :/ and frankly neither could my opponent. I seemed to dominate the whole game in complete control and then just loose. I am diamond on all 3 of my accounts. https://dl.dropbox.com/u/13176102/Daybreak LE (115).SC2Replay
- I don't like your opening build. Your two first Hellions are as late as if you were going 1 rax double expand, yet you start your third around the 7' mark. Basically, you have only the drawbacks without the advantages. 1 rax expand → dual gas or 1 rax double expand would be better than this hybrid opening.
- Why are you making a Turret at 8'05?
- You're lacking SCVs. Make SCVs. You have 48 SCVs at the 15' mark, you should have this count 4-5 minuts earlier. By the 15' mark you need 65-70 SCVs. You can't play mech with so few SCVs, you will bank gas because you don't have enough SCVs harvesting minerals, and you will not be able to afford Hellions to harass your opponent's mineral lines.
- Try to hit a pre-Hive timing (I mean before Hive units are out, not before he makes Hive).
- Scout what your opponent is doing! Your opponent maxes on Roaches yet you have only 4 Tanks and blindly prepare for BLs. What if he goes Ultralisks as his first Hive tech choice? And that's precisely what he did.
- Harass with Hellions throughout the game.
- After your round of 5 Thors was complete around the 19' mark, you should have tried to attack.
- See how much you lose because you go for an air army while your opponent stays on Ultralisks?
Well, it's a bit pointless to say anything afterwards, you lost the game at this point mostly because you don't scout anything and are extremely passive. Correct me if I'm mistaken but you seem to be labouring under the illusion that mech is about turtling into some kind of ultimate army. It's not, and you need to be very active in your scouting so you don't lose to unexpected army compositions or tech switches. Utterly passive play does not pose a threat to Zergs.
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Hey guys. I recently switched to Terran and I was opting for very aggressive and unforgiving play.
I tried to do a Thor drop today vs a Zerg who went the normal fast 3rd build.
The Thor killed 3 queens and a whole bunch of drones, but because it was a delayed build and I'm new with Terran, he flooded lings into my base. The first wave of lings died to another thor back at home, but I didn't have anything else.
What would an appropriate build be for this? Do I 1 rax fe into double gas? Or do I 1 base opting for a later expo or macro CC?
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I think it would be tough to sneak in a CC at a decent time while going thor drop, so I'd go with 1 rax FE into double gas.
The extra minerals you get with this should allow you to build a bunch of marines as well.
edit:
You could try something like this:
http://www.sc2planner.com/#TaaaaoEaaaoFaaaoDoCoDoEjiXafciXaoIoAajaiXajfaoLaoKoRaoEaaaoFrajtfoCaoQaoFoFoEfaa
Not that I recommend a thor drop strategy, but this will be pretty fast and have a pretty fast CC too.
You might prefer to follow it up with mech instead since you have an armoury anyway.
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On October 05 2012 16:36 Willzzz wrote:I think it would be tough to sneak in a CC at a decent time while going thor drop, so I'd go with 1 rax FE into double gas. The extra minerals you get with this should allow you to build a bunch of marines as well. edit: You could try something like this: http://www.sc2planner.com/#TaaaaoEaaaoFaaaoDoCoDoEjiXafciXaoIoAajaiXajfaoLaoKoRaoEaaaoFrajtfoCaoQaoFoFoEfaaNot that I recommend a thor drop strategy, but this will be pretty fast and have a pretty fast CC too. You might prefer to follow it up with mech instead since you have an armoury anyway.
7:00 is frikkin early wow. The tightest I could ever get with an early attack was the Roach/Ling/Bane "Big Bust" at 7:30 minutes which depends on the mix of units. But this is sweet man, I will try it out thanks.
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First person to write down the TvP Polt build order from the GSTL match vs CreatorPrime will have my eternal love.
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Hi guys, recently I have been having some problems with my 2ghost timing push in TvP where I am hitting late and the Protoss seems to have a colossus or 2 out which really hinders the push.
It's an old MKP build and you're supposed to start getting stim at 5:30, in both these games I get it after 6mins but I just don't know how I can shed the time, I think it was pre-rax nerf when they used to be quicker to build, but still I used to be able to do it at 5:30-6min in the past!
The idea is that you hit early with a small force of marines, marauders and 2ghosts, EMP any sentries and try to get the shields off most stuff, then either kill him there, or kill a lot of workers or the expo and get a big lead. But lately I have been struggling.
My friend who is diamond protoss pointed out somethings to me, like in 1st game I make too many depots too early, wait around a bit too much with my army. But the second game after taking my friends advice I tried to do everything as fast as I can and still a colossus was there!
So basically what I am asking is why can't I hit the proper timing of 5:30 for stim, what is slowing me down, what could I cut back on, etc.
Replays:
http://drop.sc/261563
http://drop.sc/261562
Here is a link to build:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=226877
ugh, reading through that old thread, apparently it is weak to fast colossus play! any advice is still welcome though 
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EPT
