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On October 02 2012 18:29 iAmiAnC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2012 17:58 Chaggi wrote:
Can someone explain to me how Taeja can get away with triple CC? I've been watching his Dreamhack replays and he does this 1 rax expand into a 3rd CC at like around 23~24 supply, and then picks up gas. He doesn't scout past his initial scv and he's been doing it on a variety of maps. his first hellion gets out at around 7:00 minutes~, I'm just not sure what would happen if someone bling busts him Afaik he was doing it based on scouting no gas in the Zerg base ~4 minutes? He got punished by like 20 lings vs Bly in a couple of games but still managed to win. I think if he scouts something worrying (like gas) he skips the 3rd CC, but his double gas will have been a bit delayed, leading to a later Banshee etc. I tried the build out and personally found its more trouble than its worth for laddering (stupid losses). I would like to have seen a game where he got Roach + Banelinged after starting the 3rd CC, but its a bit unlikely.
I think it's a great build if you assume 3 hatch from the zerg, it lines up so well. but yeah it's the ~4 minute one no gas, I guess I don't really understand how he gets away with it.
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Hi there!
I want to play mech vs zerg more often and I am searching for a build order with supply counts (the reactor hellion/cloak banshee one). Anyone has a good one especially with two depots before the CC? I feel way more safe this way.
Cheers!
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On October 02 2012 18:53 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2012 18:29 iAmiAnC wrote:On October 02 2012 17:58 Chaggi wrote:
Can someone explain to me how Taeja can get away with triple CC? I've been watching his Dreamhack replays and he does this 1 rax expand into a 3rd CC at like around 23~24 supply, and then picks up gas. He doesn't scout past his initial scv and he's been doing it on a variety of maps. his first hellion gets out at around 7:00 minutes~, I'm just not sure what would happen if someone bling busts him Afaik he was doing it based on scouting no gas in the Zerg base ~4 minutes? He got punished by like 20 lings vs Bly in a couple of games but still managed to win. I think if he scouts something worrying (like gas) he skips the 3rd CC, but his double gas will have been a bit delayed, leading to a later Banshee etc. I tried the build out and personally found its more trouble than its worth for laddering (stupid losses). I would like to have seen a game where he got Roach + Banelinged after starting the 3rd CC, but its a bit unlikely. I think it's a great build if you assume 3 hatch from the zerg, it lines up so well. but yeah it's the ~4 minute one no gas, I guess I don't really understand how he gets away with it.
MMA vs Violet IEM Kiev, it's basically the same build, but MMA goes for straight tanks after the second hellion, with a delayed banshee. A lot safer. Violet went for a roach-bane bust against triple CC, but he couldn't break because of tanks and marines. Keep in mind though, that it was Antiga, where a single tank can basically cover your entire natural entrance
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On October 02 2012 22:40 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2012 22:37 KiNGxXx wrote:
Hi there!
I want to play mech vs zerg more often and I am searching for a build order with supply counts (the reactor hellion/cloak banshee one). Anyone has a good one especially with two depots before the CC? I feel way more safe this way.
Cheers! Just make a depot when you can afford it before the CC, it doesn't matter exactly when, as you won't need the supply that early anyway.
There's builds which do depot -> cc -> 2 gas -> second depot, this is pretty late and you cut marines so you're very micro dependant in that short period.
I think he means a build which gets a 16 depot and is not hindering its purpose in doing that.
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On October 02 2012 22:59 Bojas wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2012 22:40 monkybone wrote:On October 02 2012 22:37 KiNGxXx wrote:
Hi there!
I want to play mech vs zerg more often and I am searching for a build order with supply counts (the reactor hellion/cloak banshee one). Anyone has a good one especially with two depots before the CC? I feel way more safe this way.
Cheers! Just make a depot when you can afford it before the CC, it doesn't matter exactly when, as you won't need the supply that early anyway. There's builds which do depot -> cc -> 2 gas -> second depot, this is pretty late and you cut marines so you're very micro dependant in that short period. I think he means a build which gets a 16 depot and is not hindering its purpose in doing that.
Yes, this 
I mean depot, rax, depot, CC, double gas, ... but I don't know what to do exactly after this. Without numbers my builds are always too flawed cause I can't play very often. With a paper and numbers I always learned the build orders way quicker. 
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On October 02 2012 08:42 Absentia wrote:If you have a mid-game engagement in TvP and it's a relatively even trade, is it a good idea to delay attacking again before max and 3/3 finishes? Obviously the problem with not attacking is that Protoss can tech up to whatever he wants comfortably but the chance of being ahead in upgrades once I get to 2/2 is extremely low. The chance of my army being superior in composition seems similarly low. Leaving a Protoss to take 8 gas colossus/templar makes for a lot of hard games when I don't attack, though. I know Thorzain has said previously about waiting until 3/3 and +2 ship weapons but I'm not really sure what the consensus is. Edit: http://drop.sc/260613This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. It's a pretty bad game from me, (bad control both engagements, not waiting for 1/1 and a couple more vikings, choosing to engage in the middle) but is appropriate for my question.
It was not an even trade, he still had Sentries and one Colossus after the fight. You should really avoid this kind of trade as you're in a really awkward situation afterwards; your third is not yet landed, he fended off your attack so he's free to claim back map control and you're left in the dark wondering if he's tech switching or threatening to kill you with a proxy Pylon.
You should wait to have enough Vikings to 2-shot Colossi before engaging, particularly on this map in which you can take advantage of the corridor between the natural and the third; moving back and forth the two bases to threaten an engagement is extremely annoying for Protoss since Vikings can harass their Colossi in the corridor with some impunity while his army tracks yours.
Your fourth was too early, especially after what happened, you should throw down 3 Barracks instead and delay your fourth until at least 160-170 supply. You didn't have enough for the last fight partially because of this. Besides, if he doesn't take the Tower, no reason to stay in your base.
On October 02 2012 09:07 SCRedditor wrote:
Can someone post the build order for the Reactor Hellion into Banshee harass that is seen so often? I tried to do it but everything thing doesn't seem to line up well.
Out of a 1 rax expand, this is the one I use:
12 Barracks
15 OC
16 Marine
16 CC
17 SCV
17 Refinery
17 Refinery
17 Supply Depot
18 SCV
19 Marine
20 SCV
21 Marine
21 Bunker
22 Factory
22 Reactor on Barracks
22 OC on natural
23 SCV
24 SCV
25 SCV
25 Starport
26 SCV
30 Hellion x2 (5'45)
31 SCV
32 SCV
32 Tech Lab on Barracks
32 Supply Depot x2
33 SCV
34 SCV
38 Hellion x2
39 SCV
40 SCV
40 Cloak (6'40)
40 Banshee
Supply counts and timings are slightly off if you SCV scout.
On October 02 2012 10:31 C0MMANDO wrote:
I am a gold Terran. In late game TvP, i almost always lose to a deathball of 4-5colosi, archon, high templar, zealot and stalkers. When both of us are maxed and have 3-3, i have around 18vikings(4vikings per colosi), marine, maurader, and around 13 ghost. Even though i out macroed( i never float more than 1.5k minerals) and had more expansions than the protoss, I always lose in the final engagements. Is there anyway i can improve my gameplay or change my meta game so i can stop losing in the late game?
Try to get more Ghosts (say between 20 and 30 depending on your economy), be sure your Vikings have 3 air attack upgrades and be very careful about your Marauder count, having too many Marauders is detrimental if he has 25+ Zealots and only a few Stalkers. 6-8 Medivacs should be enough.
On October 02 2012 10:40 Serp87 wrote:
If i see protoss go for FE either 1 gate FE or Forge FE , should I drop 3 CC in base or try to bust him with a 10 min push ?
You cannot really bust a Protoss with a 10 minuts push if he plays right, whether he went 1 gate expand or FFE. You're not at all forced to triple OC against 1 gate expand, but that's an option; against FFE you definitely want to play greedier than usual and triple OC is a common reaction to FFE, but bear in mind that he can still hit some kind of Gateway timing, perhaps with +1 armor upgrade complete, so be careful. Lining up your Armory with the completion of +1 attack (which should be launched early) is a must against FFE as the early Forge allows them to hit +3 armor insanely fast. You really don't want to be in this awful situation in which you're fighting +3 armor Charge Zealots with +1 attack bio.
On October 02 2012 13:25 CyDe wrote:
What's a good build for Terran Mech TvZ? Halby does this thing where he tricks the zerg into thinking that he is going Bio by putting up a few rax at the front after a 1rax expo. He does a lot of aggressive expanding. Then he pretty much goes mass Thor, BF hellion, and banshee. Could someone give me a workable build for that?
See build posted above, follow with a third between 7'30 and 7'45, then dual gas at the natural, then dual Armory, then dual Factory.
On October 02 2012 17:58 Chaggi wrote:
Can someone explain to me how Taeja can get away with triple CC? I've been watching his Dreamhack replays and he does this 1 rax expand into a 3rd CC at like around 23~24 supply, and then picks up gas. He doesn't scout past his initial scv and he's been doing it on a variety of maps. his first hellion gets out at around 7:00 minutes~, I'm just not sure what would happen if someone bling busts him
If you want to be sure no early Baneling bust is coming while you're going triple OC, aim at having your SCV in the Zerg's base by 3'30. If you notice gas taken before Pool, you can get dual gas right away; if not, you can triple OC knowing that any agression will come later with delayed gases.
Note that ironically enough, triple OC is safer against pure Roach agression because you can fill the Bunker with 4 Marines instead of 3 if you don't cut Marines, and you recover faster from SCVs losses thanks to your third OC being already complete.
On October 02 2012 22:37 KiNGxXx wrote:
Hi there!
I want to play mech vs zerg more often and I am searching for a build order with supply counts (the reactor hellion/cloak banshee one). Anyone has a good one especially with two depots before the CC? I feel way more safe this way.
Safer against what? CC before second Depot is actually safer against various Zerg agressive play because of earlier Hellions.
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This is a general, no replay question but does anyone have any advice for taking/securing a 3rd in TvZ? Even if I go triple CC, I often don't feel comfortable enough (even if I have the xel-naga's) to take that 3rd, and even when I do, I often lose it. I wanna say I need more tanks (which I do), but is that really it?
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On October 02 2012 22:37 KiNGxXx wrote:
Hi there!
I want to play mech vs zerg more often and I am searching for a build order with supply counts (the reactor hellion/cloak banshee one). Anyone has a good one especially with two depots before the CC? I feel way more safe this way.
Cheers!
You have to ask yourself what you're actually making yourself safe against. Unless I'm mistaken, the only two builds that can aggressively exploit a 1 rax CC or CC first are 6 and 10-pools, and if you scout correctly, you should see those coming in time to cancel your CC and finish your wall if you're really scared. To be honest, though, you can hold both early pool builds with your first marine and an scv pull if you control correctly, so that should be your goal; and if you spot it coming and take minimal damage, then you're miles ahead.
This is a general, no replay question but does anyone have any advice for taking/securing a 3rd in TvZ? Even if I go triple CC, I often don't feel comfortable enough (even if I have the xel-naga's) to take that 3rd, and even when I do, I often lose it. I wanna say I need more tanks (which I do), but is that really it?
A little too general to answer easily; if you're playing bio, you need to keep hold of the watch towers to spot large aggression coming, (which you deal with in the same way that you deal with all aggression) and you can make yourself safe against little pokes with a bunker and two depots blocking it. In general, just decide when you're going to take it, and commit to holding it. If you're playing mech, just take it; mech is extremely good at holding your nat and your third, as you should have a sufficient tank count to block roach aggression and you should be harassing with hellions.
What in particular is giving you trouble?
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On October 03 2012 02:05 Vega62a wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2012 22:37 KiNGxXx wrote:
Hi there!
I want to play mech vs zerg more often and I am searching for a build order with supply counts (the reactor hellion/cloak banshee one). Anyone has a good one especially with two depots before the CC? I feel way more safe this way.
Cheers! You have to ask yourself what you're actually making yourself safe against. Unless I'm mistaken, the only two builds that can aggressively exploit a 1 rax CC or CC first are 6 and 10-pools, and if you scout correctly, you should see those coming in time to cancel your CC and finish your wall if you're really scared. To be honest, though, you can hold both early pool builds with your first marine and an scv pull if you control correctly, so that should be your goal; and if you spot it coming and take minimal damage, then you're miles ahead. Show nested quote +
This is a general, no replay question but does anyone have any advice for taking/securing a 3rd in TvZ? Even if I go triple CC, I often don't feel comfortable enough (even if I have the xel-naga's) to take that 3rd, and even when I do, I often lose it. I wanna say I need more tanks (which I do), but is that really it?
A little too general to answer easily; if you're playing bio, you need to keep hold of the watch towers to spot large aggression coming, (which you deal with in the same way that you deal with all aggression) and you can make yourself safe against little pokes with a bunker and two depots blocking it. In general, just decide when you're going to take it, and commit to holding it. If you're playing mech, just take it; mech is extremely good at holding your nat and your third, as you should have a sufficient tank count to block roach aggression and you should be harassing with hellions. What in particular is giving you trouble?
I play Bio in TvZ but it's usually mass lings (sometimes blings) that run into my 3rd that get me ughhguu I can't stop it kinda feeling
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On October 03 2012 02:14 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2012 02:05 Vega62a wrote:On October 02 2012 22:37 KiNGxXx wrote:
Hi there!
I want to play mech vs zerg more often and I am searching for a build order with supply counts (the reactor hellion/cloak banshee one). Anyone has a good one especially with two depots before the CC? I feel way more safe this way.
Cheers! You have to ask yourself what you're actually making yourself safe against. Unless I'm mistaken, the only two builds that can aggressively exploit a 1 rax CC or CC first are 6 and 10-pools, and if you scout correctly, you should see those coming in time to cancel your CC and finish your wall if you're really scared. To be honest, though, you can hold both early pool builds with your first marine and an scv pull if you control correctly, so that should be your goal; and if you spot it coming and take minimal damage, then you're miles ahead.
This is a general, no replay question but does anyone have any advice for taking/securing a 3rd in TvZ? Even if I go triple CC, I often don't feel comfortable enough (even if I have the xel-naga's) to take that 3rd, and even when I do, I often lose it. I wanna say I need more tanks (which I do), but is that really it?
A little too general to answer easily; if you're playing bio, you need to keep hold of the watch towers to spot large aggression coming, (which you deal with in the same way that you deal with all aggression) and you can make yourself safe against little pokes with a bunker and two depots blocking it. In general, just decide when you're going to take it, and commit to holding it. If you're playing mech, just take it; mech is extremely good at holding your nat and your third, as you should have a sufficient tank count to block roach aggression and you should be harassing with hellions. What in particular is giving you trouble? I play Bio in TvZ but it's usually mass lings (sometimes blings) that run into my 3rd that get me ughhguu I can't stop it kinda feeling
At what timing do you have trouble with it? If mass lings (enough to kill a walled bunker) run into your third, lift your third and run your SCVs back to your nat until you clean it up. If you can't clean it up, you were dead anyway, and then you may have expanded too greedily. (Not sure what kind of build you're using.) In general, unless it's a roach/ling/bling allin you shouldn't have a hard time holding early zerg aggression. If you're consistently losing to the same timing, consider revising your build.
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On October 03 2012 02:14 Chaggi wrote:
I play Bio in TvZ but it's usually mass lings (sometimes blings) that run into my 3rd that get me ughhguu I can't stop it kinda feeling
You mean pure bio, without Tanks?
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On October 03 2012 02:34 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2012 02:14 Chaggi wrote:
I play Bio in TvZ but it's usually mass lings (sometimes blings) that run into my 3rd that get me ughhguu I can't stop it kinda feeling You mean pure bio, without Tanks?
No, with tanks. Admittedly, I'm awful at tank production in the early to midgame, but even if I'm on top of it, I always feel like I'm overwhelmed. I could be much better with my macro, which would help a lot.
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^Need replays dude
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On October 02 2012 08:42 Absentia wrote:If you have a mid-game engagement in TvP and it's a relatively even trade, is it a good idea to delay attacking again before max and 3/3 finishes? Obviously the problem with not attacking is that Protoss can tech up to whatever he wants comfortably but the chance of being ahead in upgrades once I get to 2/2 is extremely low. The chance of my army being superior in composition seems similarly low. Leaving a Protoss to take 8 gas colossus/templar makes for a lot of hard games when I don't attack, though. I know Thorzain has said previously about waiting until 3/3 and +2 ship weapons but I'm not really sure what the consensus is. Edit: http://drop.sc/260613This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. It's a pretty bad game from me, (bad control both engagements, not waiting for 1/1 and a couple more vikings, choosing to engage in the middle) but is appropriate for my question.
Well firstly I think you should almost always be trying to avoid a full on army engagement, unless it is to take out an expansion.
In the game you linked your engagement @ 12 mins was awful. You had two choices, either run in and snipe the expo and take large army losses, or retreat. You chose instead to run in, NOT snipe the expo, and still lose your army.
You could even have dropped half your army in his main and sniped his main nexus as well (or robo, forges, whatever).
If you are going to lose your army, make sure you get something for it.
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Russian Federation43 Posts
What's the best way to stop 1 base roach or bane play if you want CC first in TvZ?
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Diamond baddie question:
Can anybody describe the masters+ level difficulties they face when going CC first into mech vs zerg? So far in all my games I've been doing CC first into hellion/banshee into standard (read: greedy) mech play, and nobody's punished me for it, but I'm also in the lower leagues. What are some troubles you've faced at the higher levels of play, and how have you solved them?
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On October 03 2012 01:29 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2012 08:42 Absentia wrote:If you have a mid-game engagement in TvP and it's a relatively even trade, is it a good idea to delay attacking again before max and 3/3 finishes? Obviously the problem with not attacking is that Protoss can tech up to whatever he wants comfortably but the chance of being ahead in upgrades once I get to 2/2 is extremely low. The chance of my army being superior in composition seems similarly low. Leaving a Protoss to take 8 gas colossus/templar makes for a lot of hard games when I don't attack, though. I know Thorzain has said previously about waiting until 3/3 and +2 ship weapons but I'm not really sure what the consensus is. Edit: http://drop.sc/260613This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. It's a pretty bad game from me, (bad control both engagements, not waiting for 1/1 and a couple more vikings, choosing to engage in the middle) but is appropriate for my question. It was not an even trade, he still had Sentries and one Colossus after the fight. You should really avoid this kind of trade as you're in a really awkward situation afterwards; your third is not yet landed, he fended off your attack so he's free to claim back map control and you're left in the dark wondering if he's tech switching or threatening to kill you with a proxy Pylon. You should wait to have enough Vikings to 2-shot Colossi before engaging, particularly on this map in which you can take advantage of the corridor between the natural and the third; moving back and forth the two bases to threaten an engagement is extremely annoying for Protoss since Vikings can harass their Colossi in the corridor with some impunity while his army tracks yours. Your fourth was too early, especially after what happened, you should throw down 3 Barracks instead and delay your fourth until at least 160-170 supply. You didn't have enough for the last fight partially because of this. Besides, if he doesn't take the Tower, no reason to stay in your base.
What kind of timings should I be aiming for, though, if I take out all the colossus but can't push any further? That game, for example, I said the trade seemed relatively even because though I lost the vast majority of my ground army, I didn't lose every single viking, managed to save two medivacs and seemed fairly safe against any kind of counter-attack. At the very least, I wasn't yet out of the game but was, as you said, forced into an awkward position. Would the 2/2 timing have been ok to do if i'd put the three barracks up earlier? Are 2/2 timings good to do as a general rule or is it better to wait until max 3/3 bio and +1 ship weapons?
I mean the first engagement pretty obviously went wrong but the problems there are easy to identify - trapped myself with too low viking count when the third colossus popped and not waiting for 1/1. The problems with the second engagement were partly an extension of the badly executed first engagement as well as getting the 4th CC before extra rax.
My issue is more, 'as a general rule what am I supposed do between the period of my first attack and 3/3 finishing?' So because my knowledge of what to do in that period isn't great that's why I get the 4th CC so early - i'm basically planning to play defensively until 3/3 ghosts +1ship etc.
The 2/2 timing in that game was more of on a whim rather than properly structured into a game plan because I'm not sure if 2/2 timings in TvP are good in scenarios where you are equal or slightly behind. I guess that's somewhat apparent by the way I build a 4th base and then decide to attack with a 2/2 timing anyway.
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On October 03 2012 03:45 Vega62a wrote:
Diamond baddie question:
Can anybody describe the masters+ level difficulties they face when going CC first into mech vs zerg? So far in all my games I've been doing CC first into hellion/banshee into standard (read: greedy) mech play, and nobody's punished me for it, but I'm also in the lower leagues. What are some troubles you've faced at the higher levels of play, and how have you solved them?
Rax FE or 14 CC?
The real timings set up are when you take a 3rd CC after your nat instead of teching up to reactor hellion/banshee. Otherwise, everything is the same as the normal banshee/hellion opening. The best way to hide mech is to simply not let him see it until you're prepared for muta harass or a roach push. Masters zerg don't seem to be able to handle it too well regardless. Most of the games I've played, they have either gone mutas or some muta/roach hybrid.
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EPT
