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On October 02 2012 06:27 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2012 03:39 TheDwf wrote:On September 30 2012 05:30 whiskypriest wrote:On September 30 2012 02:23 Willzzz wrote:A hellion drop is already a 1/1/1 build order. I mean it's pretty simple you go gas first, then build rax -> fact -> starport and you are done. Just don't forget any depots  I guess I should be more specific. Does anyone have an optimized TvP hellion drop into banshee/tank/marine all-in build order? I can't write actual numbers from memory but it goes this way: - Barracks → 6 Marines → Reactor with the 50 gas following the Medivac. - Factory (as soon as you have 100 gas from 13 Refinery, i. e. around the 3'20 mark) → 3 Hellions → Tech Lab → produce Tanks. - Starport (as soon as Factory is complete) → Medivac → Tech Lab → produce Banshees. Take your second gas around 35-38 supply, should be around the time you start your Medivac. Add +2 Barracks while your add-ons are building. Since your second gas is late you won't be able to produce constantly Tanks and Banshees, there will be some gaps; of course you don't get Cloak (no resources for that). Delay Siege Mode to slip in one more Banshee. I can test the build order in a game if that's not clear/precise enough for you. Is there any reason not to go gas first with this? I personally would recommend gas first, I don't know the downsides if any. Considering the timing of the hellion drop is so important.
The main drawback is that if Protoss scouts, it's rather obvious you're going for some kind of Hellion play while Barracks 12 Refinery 13 retains some ambiguity. But gas first variations do exist; you build one Marine (or none if you wall with 3 Supply Depots before the Probe reaches your base on 4-spawns maps) then a Reactor with the Barracks, then swap with the Factory and make 6 Hellions. 4 of them are dropped while you try to run the two others directly into the main base if there are no Probes at the expand.
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On October 02 2012 06:37 AKomrade wrote:http://drop.sc/260517I can't stop blowing games in TvP with my army command. I freak out every time I see HT and colossi and can't control my army worth a damn. How can I correct what happened in the replay (engagements)? They start around 15:00.
The answer to this one is really simple. MORE RAX!
Your 3rd and 4th rax don't start producing until gone 13 minutes, that is dreadful.
Despite only having 2 rax and lots of supply blocks etc, you are still doing really well, imagine how well you'd be doing if you had twice as many units. The game wouldn't even last long enough for him to get HT and colossi.
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On October 02 2012 06:34 Pulimuli wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2012 06:27 monkybone wrote:On October 02 2012 03:39 TheDwf wrote:On September 30 2012 05:30 whiskypriest wrote:On September 30 2012 02:23 Willzzz wrote:A hellion drop is already a 1/1/1 build order. I mean it's pretty simple you go gas first, then build rax -> fact -> starport and you are done. Just don't forget any depots I guess I should be more specific. Does anyone have an optimized TvP hellion drop into banshee/tank/marine all-in build order? I can't write actual numbers from memory but it goes this way: - Barracks → 6 Marines → Reactor with the 50 gas following the Medivac. - Factory (as soon as you have 100 gas from 13 Refinery, i. e. around the 3'20 mark) → 3 Hellions → Tech Lab → produce Tanks. - Starport (as soon as Factory is complete) → Medivac → Tech Lab → produce Banshees. Take your second gas around 35-38 supply, should be around the time you start your Medivac. Add +2 Barracks while your add-ons are building. Since your second gas is late you won't be able to produce constantly Tanks and Banshees, there will be some gaps; of course you don't get Cloak (no resources for that). Delay Siege Mode to slip in one more Banshee. I can test the build order in a game if that's not clear/precise enough for you. Is there any reason not to go gas first with this? I personally would recommend gas first, I don't know the downsides if any. Considering the timing of the hellion drop is so important. its easy to scout for protoss, they will almost always get into your base and know that you've taken gas first and therefor they will defend with no problem. Also early aggression is hard to hold off with gas first. With gas after rax you can throw down the 2nd supply before the rax is finished and keep the probe out of your base
You can still throw down a 2nd depot to wall off going gas first at the exact same time. Both ways you still get refinery before 2nd depot.
Gas first delays the rax, but it doesn't delay the 2nd depot.
They are still going to scout your lack of expansion so will know something is up.
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On October 02 2012 07:08 Willzzz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2012 06:37 AKomrade wrote:http://drop.sc/260517I can't stop blowing games in TvP with my army command. I freak out every time I see HT and colossi and can't control my army worth a damn. How can I correct what happened in the replay (engagements)? They start around 15:00. The answer to this one is really simple. MORE RAX! Your 3rd and 4th rax don't start producing until gone 13 minutes, that is dreadful. Despite only having 2 rax and lots of supply blocks etc, you are still doing really well, imagine how well you'd be doing if you had twice as many units. The game wouldn't even last long enough for him to get HT and colossi.
On October 02 2012 07:34 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2012 06:37 AKomrade wrote:http://drop.sc/260517I can't stop blowing games in TvP with my army command. I freak out every time I see HT and colossi and can't control my army worth a damn. How can I correct what happened in the replay (engagements)? They start around 15:00. The first thing you want to rectify is your Viking count, which was nearly constantly too low throughout the game. You're not supposed to win any engagement with 6 Vikings against 6 Colossi, especially if your opponent has 10-15 Stalkers as yours had. Against 6 Colossi make around 20 Vikings; not only Colossi shall die much faster, but this will also allow you to allocate more attention to your bio and Ghosts. You need to make macro OCs while you're max and banking, not after the trade (it takes more than 5 minuts for macro OCs to pay off). Whenever HTs close in, you want to move your bio backwards while EMPing/Sniping said HTs depending if they're clumped or not.
On October 02 2012 07:51 Willzzz wrote:
You have a great battle @ 24mins where you show that you CAN deal with templar and colossi just fine. After the battle your #1 priority is to remax, you start off well, but before long your production queue peters out despite you having lots of money in the bank, this is where you lose.
I love the nuke @ 27mins but you have to keep your eye on the ball, nukes are nice but not as important as maxing out.
You showed real patience and good sense retreating after you took out his 4th the first time, and you should have done the same the second time. You don't need an engagement, HE needs an engagement. Don't let him have what he wants.
Also you break one of my top rules of starcraft, taking a 5th when your opponent is on three bases. You should never be in a situation where you are 2 bases ahead. 1 base ahead is enough to win, 2 bases ahead can be a liability.
Thank you very much! Both of you.
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On October 02 2012 06:37 AKomrade wrote:http://drop.sc/260517I can't stop blowing games in TvP with my army command. I freak out every time I see HT and colossi and can't control my army worth a damn. How can I correct what happened in the replay (engagements)? They start around 15:00.
The first thing you want to rectify is your Viking count, which was nearly constantly too low throughout the game. You're not supposed to win any engagement with 6 Vikings against 6 Colossi, especially if your opponent has 10-15 Stalkers as yours had. Against 6 Colossi make around 20 Vikings; not only Colossi shall die much faster, but this will also allow you to allocate more attention to your bio and Ghosts.
You need to make macro OCs while you're max and banking, not after the trade (it takes more than 5 minuts for macro OCs to pay off).
Whenever HTs close in, you want to move your bio backwards while EMPing/Sniping said HTs depending if they're clumped or not.
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You have a great battle @ 24mins where you show that you CAN deal with templar and colossi just fine. After the battle your #1 priority is to remax, you start off well, but before long your production queue peters out despite you having lots of money in the bank, this is where you lose.
I love the nuke @ 27mins but you have to keep your eye on the ball, nukes are nice but not as important as maxing out.
You showed real patience and good sense retreating after you took out his 4th the first time, and you should have done the same the second time. You don't need an engagement, HE needs an engagement. Don't let him have what he wants.
Also you break one of my top rules of starcraft, taking a 5th when your opponent is on three bases. You should never be in a situation where you are 2 bases ahead. 1 base ahead is enough to win, 2 bases ahead can be a liability.
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If you have a mid-game engagement in TvP and it's a relatively even trade, is it a good idea to delay attacking again before max and 3/3 finishes? Obviously the problem with not attacking is that Protoss can tech up to whatever he wants comfortably but the chance of being ahead in upgrades once I get to 2/2 is extremely low. The chance of my army being superior in composition seems similarly low. Leaving a Protoss to take 8 gas colossus/templar makes for a lot of hard games when I don't attack, though. I know Thorzain has said previously about waiting until 3/3 and +2 ship weapons but I'm not really sure what the consensus is.
Edit: http://drop.sc/260613
This is the kind of thing I'm talking about.
It's a pretty bad game from me, (bad control both engagements, not waiting for 1/1 and a couple more vikings, choosing to engage in the middle) but is appropriate for my question.
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Can someone post the build order for the Reactor Hellion into Banshee harass that is seen so often? I tried to do it but everything thing doesn't seem to line up well.
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On October 02 2012 09:07 SCRedditor wrote:
Can someone post the build order for the Reactor Hellion into Banshee harass that is seen so often? I tried to do it but everything thing doesn't seem to line up well.
10/11 Depot
14/19 Command Center
15/19 Barracks
16/19 Gas
18/19 Marine
19/30 Depot
21/30 Factory - @20% Reactor on Barracks
25/38 Command Center – Swap Barracks with Factory – 6 Hellions
29/38 Starport - @50% Tech-Lab on Barracks
35/38 Depot
37/38 Gas – Swap Barracks with Starport – Banshee
*After 6 Hellions – Tech-Lab on Barracks – 2x Engineering Bays – Gas
*2x Barracks – Reactor on Starport – Tech-Lab on Factory
There's also a 1rax FE version, but you end up with quite a bit of excess gas for a while before your double upgrades + siege tech.
EDIT: This was from one of the Razer Taeja replays.
So I've been trying to get to use more hotkeys (I only use the F keys and 1-rax, 2-army, 3-facts/ports, 4-CC, 5-CC, 6-CC, 7-All CC) any tips on how to practice using more?
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I am a gold Terran. In late game TvP, i almost always lose to a deathball of 4-5colosi, archon, high templar, zealot and stalkers. When both of us are maxed and have 3-3, i have around 18vikings(4vikings per colosi), marine, maurader, and around 13 ghost. Even though i out macroed( i never float more than 1.5k minerals) and had more expansions than the protoss, I always lose in the final engagements. Is there anyway i can improve my gameplay or change my meta game so i can stop losing in the late game?
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If i see protoss go for FE either 1 gate FE or Forge FE , should I drop 3 CC in base or try to bust him with a 10 min push ?
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On October 02 2012 10:31 C0MMANDO wrote:
I am a gold Terran. In late game TvP, i almost always lose to a deathball of 4-5colosi, archon, high templar, zealot and stalkers. When both of us are maxed and have 3-3, i have around 18vikings(4vikings per colosi), marine, maurader, and around 13 ghost. Even though i out macroed( i never float more than 1.5k minerals) and had more expansions than the protoss, I always lose in the final engagements. Is there anyway i can improve my gameplay or change my meta game so i can stop losing in the late game?
It's probably got something to do with your final engagement. Darglein's micro trainer on battle.net is pretty good training for this, or you can ask a protoss buddy to just practice max-army scenarios on calm before the storm or something. In general though, you want to start building lots of orbitals and extra rax while sacking scvs late game. Or you could go for that MVP transition into raven BC ghost.
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What's a good build for Terran Mech TvZ? Halby does this thing where he tricks the zerg into thinking that he is going Bio by putting up a few rax at the front after a 1rax expo. He does a lot of aggressive expanding. Then he pretty much goes mass Thor, BF hellion, and banshee. Could someone give me a workable build for that?
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On October 02 2012 13:25 CyDe wrote:
What's a good build for Terran Mech TvZ? Halby does this thing where he tricks the zerg into thinking that he is going Bio by putting up a few rax at the front after a 1rax expo. He does a lot of aggressive expanding. Then he pretty much goes mass Thor, BF hellion, and banshee. Could someone give me a workable build for that?
Don't know who Halby is, but you can do the same thing with the reactor/banshee openings. Taeja has a good transfer into mech from this and Kas, Thorzain and Puma all have different versions for opening mech. I can't give you exact replays but http://www.sc2replays.eu/ is a fantastic place to search.
Anything before June is out of date or streamlined already, so look for stuff from the MLG Spring Arena/Gigabyte tournaments up.
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I don't think thats the right one. It doesn't have the reactor factory.
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On October 02 2012 13:50 AKomrade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2012 13:25 CyDe wrote:
What's a good build for Terran Mech TvZ? Halby does this thing where he tricks the zerg into thinking that he is going Bio by putting up a few rax at the front after a 1rax expo. He does a lot of aggressive expanding. Then he pretty much goes mass Thor, BF hellion, and banshee. Could someone give me a workable build for that? Don't know who Halby is, but you can do the same thing with the reactor/banshee openings. Taeja has a good transfer into mech from this and Kas, Thorzain and Puma all have different versions for opening mech. I can't give you exact replays but http://www.sc2replays.eu/ is a fantastic place to search. Anything before June is out of date or streamlined already, so look for stuff from the MLG Spring Arena/Gigabyte tournaments up.
I'm looking for the hellion banshee opener too, i tried searching for Taeja replays from MLG Spring Arena but MLG Spring wasn't on the list. As for gigabyte, I don't know which one to chose. Would you mind pointing me to a few specific games?
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Can someone explain to me how Taeja can get away with triple CC? I've been watching his Dreamhack replays and he does this 1 rax expand into a 3rd CC at like around 23~24 supply, and then picks up gas. He doesn't scout past his initial scv and he's been doing it on a variety of maps. his first hellion gets out at around 7:00 minutes~, I'm just not sure what would happen if someone bling busts him
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On October 02 2012 17:58 Chaggi wrote:
Can someone explain to me how Taeja can get away with triple CC? I've been watching his Dreamhack replays and he does this 1 rax expand into a 3rd CC at like around 23~24 supply, and then picks up gas. He doesn't scout past his initial scv and he's been doing it on a variety of maps. his first hellion gets out at around 7:00 minutes~, I'm just not sure what would happen if someone bling busts him
Afaik he was doing it based on scouting no gas in the Zerg base ~4 minutes? He got punished by like 20 lings vs Bly in a couple of games but still managed to win. I think if he scouts something worrying (like gas) he skips the 3rd CC, but his double gas will have been a bit delayed, leading to a later Banshee etc. I tried the build out and personally found its more trouble than its worth for laddering (stupid losses). I would like to have seen a game where he got Roach + Banelinged after starting the 3rd CC, but its a bit unlikely.
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EPT
