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On October 03 2012 04:12 Absentia wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2012 01:29 TheDwf wrote:On October 02 2012 08:42 Absentia wrote:If you have a mid-game engagement in TvP and it's a relatively even trade, is it a good idea to delay attacking again before max and 3/3 finishes? Obviously the problem with not attacking is that Protoss can tech up to whatever he wants comfortably but the chance of being ahead in upgrades once I get to 2/2 is extremely low. The chance of my army being superior in composition seems similarly low. Leaving a Protoss to take 8 gas colossus/templar makes for a lot of hard games when I don't attack, though. I know Thorzain has said previously about waiting until 3/3 and +2 ship weapons but I'm not really sure what the consensus is. Edit: http://drop.sc/260613This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. It's a pretty bad game from me, (bad control both engagements, not waiting for 1/1 and a couple more vikings, choosing to engage in the middle) but is appropriate for my question. It was not an even trade, he still had Sentries and one Colossus after the fight. You should really avoid this kind of trade as you're in a really awkward situation afterwards; your third is not yet landed, he fended off your attack so he's free to claim back map control and you're left in the dark wondering if he's tech switching or threatening to kill you with a proxy Pylon. You should wait to have enough Vikings to 2-shot Colossi before engaging, particularly on this map in which you can take advantage of the corridor between the natural and the third; moving back and forth the two bases to threaten an engagement is extremely annoying for Protoss since Vikings can harass their Colossi in the corridor with some impunity while his army tracks yours. Your fourth was too early, especially after what happened, you should throw down 3 Barracks instead and delay your fourth until at least 160-170 supply. You didn't have enough for the last fight partially because of this. Besides, if he doesn't take the Tower, no reason to stay in your base. What kind of timings should I be aiming for, though, if I take out all the colossus but can't push any further? That game, for example, I said the trade seemed relatively even because though I lost the vast majority of my ground army, I didn't lose every single viking, managed to save two medivacs and seemed fairly safe against any kind of counter-attack. At the very least, I wasn't yet out of the game but was, as you said, forced into an awkward position. Would the 2/2 timing have been ok to do if i'd put the three barracks up earlier? Are 2/2 timings good to do as a general rule or is it better to wait until max 3/3 bio and +1 ship weapons? I mean the first engagement pretty obviously went wrong but the problems there are easy to identify - trapped myself with too low viking count when the third colossus popped and not waiting for 1/1. The problems with the second engagement were partly an extension of the badly executed first engagement as well as getting the 4th CC before extra rax. My issue is more, 'as a general rule what am I supposed do between the period of my first attack and 3/3 finishing?' So because my knowledge of what to do in that period isn't great that's why I get the 4th CC so early - i'm basically planning to play defensively until 3/3 ghosts +1ship etc. The 2/2 timing in that game was more of on a whim rather than properly structured into a game plan because I'm not sure if 2/2 timings in TvP are good in scenarios where you are equal or slightly behind. I guess that's somewhat apparent by the way I build a 4th base and then decide to attack with a 2/2 timing anyway.
I think your problem is that you thinking in a binary way, that either you are attacking or not attacking. You should be continually poking and prodding, but don't actually commit unless you have an advantage.
Even when you are 3/3 and maxed you don't just attack regardless.
You can still be out on the map with an inferior army, just don't put yourself in a position where you can't retreat. You never know when he will make a mistake and you can pounce.
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When doing reactor hellion play, should I move out with 4 or 6? I'm in gold so my micro/macro are ass so please take that into consideration.
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On October 03 2012 01:29 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2012 09:07 SCRedditor wrote:
Can someone post the build order for the Reactor Hellion into Banshee harass that is seen so often? I tried to do it but everything thing doesn't seem to line up well. Out of a 1 rax expand, this is the one I use: 12 Barracks 15 OC 16 Marine 16 CC 17 SCV 17 Refinery 17 Refinery 17 Supply Depot 18 SCV 19 Marine 20 SCV 21 Marine 21 Bunker 22 Factory 22 Reactor on Barracks 22 OC on natural 23 SCV 24 SCV 25 SCV 25 Starport 26 SCV 30 Hellion x2 (5'45) 31 SCV 32 SCV 32 Tech Lab on Barracks 32 Supply Depot x2 33 SCV 34 SCV 38 Hellion x2 39 SCV 40 SCV 40 Cloak (6'40) 40 Banshee Supply counts and timings are slightly off if you SCV scout.
Thanks, but if you don't scout with scv, then how do you scout?
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On October 03 2012 09:17 SCRedditor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2012 01:29 TheDwf wrote:On October 02 2012 09:07 SCRedditor wrote:
Can someone post the build order for the Reactor Hellion into Banshee harass that is seen so often? I tried to do it but everything thing doesn't seem to line up well. Out of a 1 rax expand, this is the one I use: 12 Barracks 15 OC 16 Marine 16 CC 17 SCV 17 Refinery 17 Refinery 17 Supply Depot 18 SCV 19 Marine 20 SCV 21 Marine 21 Bunker 22 Factory 22 Reactor on Barracks 22 OC on natural 23 SCV 24 SCV 25 SCV 25 Starport 26 SCV 30 Hellion x2 (5'45) 31 SCV 32 SCV 32 Tech Lab on Barracks 32 Supply Depot x2 33 SCV 34 SCV 38 Hellion x2 39 SCV 40 SCV 40 Cloak (6'40) 40 Banshee Supply counts and timings are slightly off if you SCV scout. Thanks, but if you don't scout with scv, then how do you scout?
Marines, hellions, banshees, scans
Or you could just scout much later, since most zergs will go hatch first
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On October 03 2012 04:25 AKomrade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2012 03:45 Vega62a wrote:
Diamond baddie question:
Can anybody describe the masters+ level difficulties they face when going CC first into mech vs zerg? So far in all my games I've been doing CC first into hellion/banshee into standard (read: greedy) mech play, and nobody's punished me for it, but I'm also in the lower leagues. What are some troubles you've faced at the higher levels of play, and how have you solved them? Rax FE or 14 CC? The real timings set up are when you take a 3rd CC after your nat instead of teching up to reactor hellion/banshee. Otherwise, everything is the same as the normal banshee/hellion opening. The best way to hide mech is to simply not let him see it until you're prepared for muta harass or a roach push. Masters zerg don't seem to be able to handle it too well regardless. Most of the games I've played, they have either gone mutas or some muta/roach hybrid.
14 CC. Mostly concerned about what zerg can do to punish it, as I like it for a go-to build.
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On October 03 2012 10:07 Vega62a wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2012 04:25 AKomrade wrote:On October 03 2012 03:45 Vega62a wrote:
Diamond baddie question:
Can anybody describe the masters+ level difficulties they face when going CC first into mech vs zerg? So far in all my games I've been doing CC first into hellion/banshee into standard (read: greedy) mech play, and nobody's punished me for it, but I'm also in the lower leagues. What are some troubles you've faced at the higher levels of play, and how have you solved them? Rax FE or 14 CC? The real timings set up are when you take a 3rd CC after your nat instead of teching up to reactor hellion/banshee. Otherwise, everything is the same as the normal banshee/hellion opening. The best way to hide mech is to simply not let him see it until you're prepared for muta harass or a roach push. Masters zerg don't seem to be able to handle it too well regardless. Most of the games I've played, they have either gone mutas or some muta/roach hybrid. 14 CC. Mostly concerned about what zerg can do to punish it, as I like it for a go-to build.
Really nothing. Zerg players basically do the same thing. Unless he goes for a speedling before hatch opening (out of about 1000 games in the last three seasons, I've seen it twice, once today), you don't have anything to worry about. That or a six pool, but competent zerg don't play those openings cause they're god-fucking-awful vs Terran.
Its really what you invest your income into that sets you up for the zerg all ins. Do you open three fact and then get an armory? Do you get a 3rd CC before starting factories? Do you go reactor hellion/banshee and go for fast armories and a CC before you make another factory? Those are the questions.
No matter how you open, reactor hellion/bashee is vulnerable to super fast muta, roach busts of any kind, roach/bling allins and bling all ins. The timing varies (roach allins hit at 8:30 +, fast muta anywhere from 7:45-9:00, bling allins around 6:45-7:00), but the weaknesses carry over no matter 14/16CC or 1 rax FE.
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Hey all,
I've been using the hellion/banshee with 3 CC vs zerg the past week or so, and have been having a lot of fun with it. It's been quite successful since my mechanics can hold up pretty well and I have solid timings that follow the opening, but I feel I need a clearer goal in mind when using it. I actually have no idea what I'm doing. I hear a lot of "it's the ultimate control build" but don't know what that really entails. What should be my #1 priority when going hellion/banshee? Roasting drones? Delaying expos? Killing creep? Whittling down the queen count/army supply? Is there anything I absolutely shouldn't attempt unless I'm 100% sure for it to work?
For now I just do what I can.
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TvZ.
If I'm going mech, 1rax FE -> Hellion/Banshee.
How do I deal with about 5-10 roaches that come while he's going Lair and usually into Muta? It's like two completely different directions I need to go >.< I usually go double Thor after the 2nd/3rd Factories but theres no way to get them out in time, it's usually just before the 1st banshee pops.
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On October 03 2012 09:44 Whatson wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2012 09:17 SCRedditor wrote:On October 03 2012 01:29 TheDwf wrote:On October 02 2012 09:07 SCRedditor wrote:
Can someone post the build order for the Reactor Hellion into Banshee harass that is seen so often? I tried to do it but everything thing doesn't seem to line up well. Out of a 1 rax expand, this is the one I use: 12 Barracks 15 OC 16 Marine 16 CC 17 SCV 17 Refinery 17 Refinery 17 Supply Depot 18 SCV 19 Marine 20 SCV 21 Marine 21 Bunker 22 Factory 22 Reactor on Barracks 22 OC on natural 23 SCV 24 SCV 25 SCV 25 Starport 26 SCV 30 Hellion x2 (5'45) 31 SCV 32 SCV 32 Tech Lab on Barracks 32 Supply Depot x2 33 SCV 34 SCV 38 Hellion x2 39 SCV 40 SCV 40 Cloak (6'40) 40 Banshee Supply counts and timings are slightly off if you SCV scout. Thanks, but if you don't scout with scv, then how do you scout? Marines, hellions, banshees, scans Or you could just scout much later, since most zergs will go hatch first
thanks, I tried to do that today. But by the time my hellions saw the roaches coming it was already too late.
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On October 03 2012 12:48 halpimcat wrote:
Hey all,
I've been using the hellion/banshee with 3 CC vs zerg the past week or so, and have been having a lot of fun with it. It's been quite successful since my mechanics can hold up pretty well and I have solid timings that follow the opening, but I feel I need a clearer goal in mind when using it. I actually have no idea what I'm doing. I hear a lot of "it's the ultimate control build" but don't know what that really entails. What should be my #1 priority when going hellion/banshee? Roasting drones? Delaying expos? Killing creep? Whittling down the queen count/army supply? Is there anything I absolutely shouldn't attempt unless I'm 100% sure for it to work?
For now I just do what I can.
Initially I think it is best to poke around with the Banshees and Hellions and look for holes in his defence - try picking off queens spreading creep and some drones at the third base. If you see the opportunity to run Hellions by into the main then do so. It's also about finding and taking advantage of any gaps in the defence of the Zerg.
However it is also important to look after your Banshee's and Hellions - these are giving you map control and are your whole army in early parts of the game! If you lose everything and do no damage with it you should expect to be behind and maybe even take some damage from a counter attack.
By keeping the Hellion Banshee alive you can keep control of the towers, keep a Banshee in position to spot for the Zergs fourth as well as placing your own third base at your third location at around 10-11 minutes, giving you a very nice economy. Keep an eye on the Hellions, try and snipe creep tumours if you can as well.
TLDR: Don't throw away your Hellion Banshee for nothing as it is really nice for map control - at the same time you should still poke to look for opportunities to do damage.
On October 03 2012 14:27 Kamwah wrote:
TvZ.
If I'm going mech, 1rax FE -> Hellion/Banshee.
How do I deal with about 5-10 roaches that come while he's going Lair and usually into Muta? It's like two completely different directions I need to go >.< I usually go double Thor after the 2nd/3rd Factories but theres no way to get them out in time, it's usually just before the 1st banshee pops.
This sounds really weird - is he going for a fast third base or what? A replay might help us here to give you some ideas - Roaches arriving at your base before the first Banshee is definitely some kind of heavy pressure / all-in style of play. You should have a bunker with your early game marines in it that you can repair to buy time and don't be afraid to lose a few SCVs because he will have invested a lot into the attack and for him it NEEDS to do damage as he will be behind on drones as well as tech.
Post the replay and I'll give you a bit of a better answer 
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[B]On October 03 2012 17:38 Wardi wrote: Show nested quote +On October 03 2012 14:27 Kamwah wrote:
TvZ.
If I'm going mech, 1rax FE -> Hellion/Banshee.
How do I deal with about 5-10 roaches that come while he's going Lair and usually into Muta? It's like two completely different directions I need to go >.< I usually go double Thor after the 2nd/3rd Factories but theres no way to get them out in time, it's usually just before the 1st banshee pops. This sounds really weird - is he going for a fast third base or what? A replay might help us here to give you some ideas - Roaches arriving at your base before the first Banshee is definitely some kind of heavy pressure / all-in style of play. You should have a bunker with your early game marines in it that you can repair to buy time and don't be afraid to lose a few SCVs because he will have invested a lot into the attack and for him it NEEDS to do damage as he will be behind on drones as well as tech. Post the replay and I'll give you a bit of a better answer
Well I've encountered it quite a few times now. Sometimes they'll start a third before and sometimes just after, the Roaches get there about when the Banshee pops and 8 hellions are sat there thinking "Wtf?" XD
Yea I guess i'll have to be quicker to repair the bunker, it's just weird because I've only started seeing it recently.
Also saw a crazy Muta/Baneling all-in off 2bases the other day which caught me off-guard and completely wrecked my hell/banshee opening.
I'll upload the replay when I find it, too much laddering!
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On October 03 2012 17:54 Kamwah wrote:Show nested quote +[B]On October 03 2012 17:38 Wardi wrote: On October 03 2012 14:27 Kamwah wrote:
TvZ.
If I'm going mech, 1rax FE -> Hellion/Banshee.
How do I deal with about 5-10 roaches that come while he's going Lair and usually into Muta? It's like two completely different directions I need to go >.< I usually go double Thor after the 2nd/3rd Factories but theres no way to get them out in time, it's usually just before the 1st banshee pops. This sounds really weird - is he going for a fast third base or what? A replay might help us here to give you some ideas - Roaches arriving at your base before the first Banshee is definitely some kind of heavy pressure / all-in style of play. You should have a bunker with your early game marines in it that you can repair to buy time and don't be afraid to lose a few SCVs because he will have invested a lot into the attack and for him it NEEDS to do damage as he will be behind on drones as well as tech. Post the replay and I'll give you a bit of a better answer Well I've encountered it quite a few times now. Sometimes they'll start a third before and sometimes just after, the Roaches get there about when the Banshee pops and 8 hellions are sat there thinking "Wtf?" XD Yea I guess i'll have to be quicker to repair the bunker, it's just weird because I've only started seeing it recently. Also saw a crazy Muta/Baneling all-in off 2bases the other day which caught me off-guard and completely wrecked my hell/banshee opening. I'll upload the replay when I find it, too much laddering!
You should have two banshees by the time you have 8 Hellions. Yeah in general fast Mutas wreck Hellion Banshee which is why you need to be scanning his base if you see no third or a late third.
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This sounds really weird - is he going for a fast third base or what? A replay might help us here to give you some ideas - Roaches arriving at your base before the first Banshee is definitely some kind of heavy pressure / all-in style of play. You should have a bunker with your early game marines in it that you can repair to buy time and don't be afraid to lose a few SCVs because he will have invested a lot into the attack and for him it NEEDS to do damage as he will be behind on drones as well as tech.
No, it's just a roach check. Most do a 5-10 roach check as they take their third to keep hellion and banshee on your side of the map so creep can connect to third, and a queen can make it over to the new third. It's hardly an all in.
I believe DRG and violet do this kind of opening sometimes.
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Hi in continuation of learning how to deal with 1 base 2 gas builds in TvP I am back with a new problem.
http://drop.sc/261003
1 base 4 gate blink stalkers at a terribly late timing to make it confusing as heck to play against.
I almost held it, I just overcomitted at the end but this guy was completely terrible.. someone with even decent execution would have rolled me.
Like I did in my last help post I´ll try to go over the game and my thought process leading up to my attempt to hold his all in push.
I scv scout -> spot 2 gasses with 3 probes minning each.
I'm like okay I got to prepare for either b stalkers with robo or b stalkers without, warp prism harass or allin dts, dts 4 gate etc.
I hop in again with my scv at 5:25 and see 2 stalkers this hints me to that he's going b stalk. I cannot make assumptions though.
I scan I see 4 gates still 2 gasses no sign of a robo or TC. I should have done some effort to see his second pylon but I would still need to scan for his nexus to see how much gas is mined and what if he places his TC/robo/whatever at his nexus..Plenty of diamond or masters (this guy was masters somehow) do it.
At 8:00 I am very confused I go to the watchtower to check and I can finally see it's a b stalk allin most likely without observer as he had 4 gates and stalkers in relatively big numbers.
He then proceeds to do a retarded blink past my bunkers losing his army I lose scvs which I could afford to lose.
I had 5 rax up and was getting my starport up (I know it was way too late I'm just terrible at executing a build order while trying to figure out what cheesy build my opponent is going for)
Like last time could someone tell me what went wrong and maybe give some general tips on how to identify my opponents build with information being as limited and unlogical as it sometimes is.
http://drop.sc/261003
Thanks in advance.. Sorry for being a bit BM in-game, it was my fault that I lost this game and I should not let it out to my opponent.
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On October 03 2012 02:49 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2012 02:34 TheDwf wrote:On October 03 2012 02:14 Chaggi wrote:
I play Bio in TvZ but it's usually mass lings (sometimes blings) that run into my 3rd that get me ughhguu I can't stop it kinda feeling You mean pure bio, without Tanks? No, with tanks. Admittedly, I'm awful at tank production in the early to midgame, but even if I'm on top of it, I always feel like I'm overwhelmed. I could be much better with my macro, which would help a lot.
The way you defend your third depends on the map. On Antiga, you need to establish between your main and your third, in front of your natural's ramp. On CK/Shakuras, you can have a Tank on your main's cliff and a Bunker in the corner between the ledge and the gas, etc. Basically, on maps in which you have multiple entrances to cover, you need a Bunker and some Depots placed in such a way that pure Zerglings cannot bring down said Bunker. Depending on your opening, it may be a transition problem too; if your multitask slips while you're harassing, your late buildings might result in a thinner army, which makes your third harder to secure.
On October 03 2012 03:33 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2012 01:29 TheDwf wrote:
12 Barracks
15 OC
16 Marine
16 CC
17 SCV
17 Refinery
17 Refinery
17 Supply Depot
I do the same, but I see most pros going for depot before the gases. Do you know why? My theory is that they want to scout whether there is gas, so that they can choose to go for 3rd CC instead of gases. At the expensive of the banshee timing, which is crucial for roach and or baneling defense.
Not sure why since you have a slight SCV cut too with Depot before dual Refinery (unless you're willing to delay them even more), and you can choose whether you want to Depot or dual Refinery with a SCV reaching Zerg's geysers by the 3'30 mark with the advantage of not committing to later Refineries in case you spot gas before Pool.
On October 03 2012 03:37 2plusthree wrote:
What's the best way to stop 1 base roach or bane play if you want CC first in TvZ?
Something like this, then tech to Banshees behind this kind of wall.
On October 03 2012 03:45 Vega62a wrote:
Diamond baddie question:
Can anybody describe the masters+ level difficulties they face when going CC first into mech vs zerg? So far in all my games I've been doing CC first into hellion/banshee into standard (read: greedy) mech play, and nobody's punished me for it, but I'm also in the lower leagues. What are some troubles you've faced at the higher levels of play, and how have you solved them?
It's not about the mech follow-up, but the thing I dislike with CC first → Barracks → Refinery → Reactor Hellion → Banshees is that you have only 2 Marines in your Bunker, and dealing with Roach pressure with only 2 Marines is really obnoxious. When I was using this build, I was often making a blind Marauder (before swapping Starport with Barracks) upon scouting the Zerg went gas.
On October 03 2012 04:12 Absentia wrote:
What kind of timings should I be aiming for, though, if I take out all the colossus but can't push any further? That game, for example, I said the trade seemed relatively even because though I lost the vast majority of my ground army, I didn't lose every single viking, managed to save two medivacs and seemed fairly safe against any kind of counter-attack. At the very least, I wasn't yet out of the game but was, as you said, forced into an awkward position. Would the 2/2 timing have been ok to do if i'd put the three barracks up earlier? Are 2/2 timings good to do as a general rule or is it better to wait until max 3/3 bio and +1 ship weapons?
I mean the first engagement pretty obviously went wrong but the problems there are easy to identify - trapped myself with too low viking count when the third colossus popped and not waiting for 1/1. The problems with the second engagement were partly an extension of the badly executed first engagement as well as getting the 4th CC before extra rax.
My issue is more, 'as a general rule what am I supposed do between the period of my first attack and 3/3 finishing?' So because my knowledge of what to do in that period isn't great that's why I get the 4th CC so early - i'm basically planning to play defensively until 3/3 ghosts +1ship etc.
The 2/2 timing in that game was more of on a whim rather than properly structured into a game plan because I'm not sure if 2/2 timings in TvP are good in scenarios where you are equal or slightly behind. I guess that's somewhat apparent by the way I build a 4th base and then decide to attack with a 2/2 timing anyway.
It's a bit hard to give a general answer because it depends on your upgrades and your opponent's choices. When playing against Colossi → double Forge I try to hit a 1-2 timing (I get a really early Armory so I can start +2 attack as soon as +1 attack completes) before he gets Charge or, more realistically, Archons/Storm, but of course that's not always possible depending on how things went before. Basically, whenever you attack, it's way better if your attack upgrade matches his armor upgrade, and of course you want to make sure you have the adequate army composition. So, if you're 2-2 and he's not yet 3-0-3 with some Archons or Storms, you might give a try if you have enough, but don't be upset if you don't have this kind of opportunity, there will just be the classic 200/200 collision.
On October 03 2012 08:24 awwnuts07 wrote:
When doing reactor hellion play, should I move out with 4 or 6? I'm in gold so my micro/macro are ass so please take that into consideration.
You mean move out of your base? You should do this with your 2 first Hellions to immediately assert map control.
On October 03 2012 09:17 SCRedditor wrote:
Thanks, but if you don't scout with scv, then how do you scout?
With my two first Hellions. On maps like CK or Daybreak you want to check around your third with one of them to see if he's not parking Speedlings/morphing Banelings here. I don't SCV scout with this build because (a) 98% of the time Zerg goes Hatchery first, (b) you don't deviate from the build if he takes gas anyway and (c) you're really minerals-starved with this build. 14/14 Baneling busts are rare and you can defend them with this build too with good reflexs. You would probably be in an awful spot against 1-base Roaches rushes, but I've never encountered one.
On October 03 2012 12:48 halpimcat wrote:
Hey all,
I've been using the hellion/banshee with 3 CC vs zerg the past week or so, and have been having a lot of fun with it. It's been quite successful since my mechanics can hold up pretty well and I have solid timings that follow the opening, but I feel I need a clearer goal in mind when using it. I actually have no idea what I'm doing. I hear a lot of "it's the ultimate control build" but don't know what that really entails. What should be my #1 priority when going hellion/banshee? Roasting drones? Delaying expos? Killing creep? Whittling down the queen count/army supply? Is there anything I absolutely shouldn't attempt unless I'm 100% sure for it to work?
For now I just do what I can.
Depends on many things:
- If your follow-up is mech or Marines/Tanks. If it's the latter I would focus on slowing creep as much as possible. With mech you produce more Hellions and Banshees, so you're able to attempt more agressive moves on Drones/Queens.
- If you went double expand or third at 7'30. With 1 rax CC CC you don't really need to kill Drones.
- How many Hellions and Banshees you make, and Cloak or not. Obviously, the more resources you invest, the more you want from them.
On October 03 2012 14:27 Kamwah wrote:
TvZ.
If I'm going mech, 1rax FE -> Hellion/Banshee.
How do I deal with about 5-10 roaches that come while he's going Lair and usually into Muta? It's like two completely different directions I need to go >.< I usually go double Thor after the 2nd/3rd Factories but theres no way to get them out in time, it's usually just before the 1st banshee pops.
Counter with your first 4 Hellions (make sure to bypass his Roaches and Tower sight) while preparing SCVs on auto-repair at home: all your SCVs at the natural behind the Bunker, and some from the main behind the wall. Make sure your Banshee is hitting Roaches.
Use this kind of building layout.
- Roaches have to move forward to hit the Bunker, which means he has to micro here and at home since your Hellions are hopefully wreaking some havoc there.
- Roaches can still be hit by the Bunker if he tries to move up your ramp to bring down your wall.
If you roast 10+ Drones you will not have to worry about a quick Mutalisk follow-up, but as a general rule use Turrets to stall while you're building your Thors; one Turret at each mineral line, one by the production facilities and one near your wall at the natural.
On October 03 2012 14:45 SCRedditor wrote:
thanks, I tried to do that today. But by the time my hellions saw the roaches coming it was already too late.
Maybe your opponent went Roach Warren 18 with only one Queen. It hits earlier than 2 Queens Roach Warren 28 (in which Roaches spawn at ~6'30 when your Hellions #3 and #4 are halfway done with the build posted above), but it's more all-inish. If he goes a regular Roach Warren 28 you will see Roaches from afar (e. g. you will see them at his Tower on CK or Ohana).
On October 03 2012 21:25 Bojas wrote:Hi in continuation of learning how to deal with 1 base 2 gas builds in TvP I am back with a new problem. http://drop.sc/2610031 base 4 gate blink stalkers at a terribly late timing to make it confusing as heck to play against. I almost held it, I just overcomitted at the end but this guy was completely terrible.. someone with even decent execution would have rolled me. Like I did in my last help post I´ll try to go over the game and my thought process leading up to my attempt to hold his all in push. I scv scout -> spot 2 gasses with 3 probes minning each. I'm like okay I got to prepare for either b stalkers with robo or b stalkers without, warp prism harass or allin dts, dts 4 gate etc. I hop in again with my scv at 5:25 and see 2 stalkers this hints me to that he's going b stalk. I cannot make assumptions though. I scan I see 4 gates still 2 gasses no sign of a robo or TC. I should have done some effort to see his second pylon but I would still need to scan for his nexus to see how much gas is mined and what if he places his TC/robo/whatever at his nexus..Plenty of diamond or masters (this guy was masters somehow) do it. At 8:00 I am very confused I go to the watchtower to check and I can finally see it's a b stalk allin most likely without observer as he had 4 gates and stalkers in relatively big numbers. He then proceeds to do a retarded blink past my bunkers losing his army I lose scvs which I could afford to lose. I had 5 rax up and was getting my starport up (I know it was way too late I'm just terrible at executing a build order while trying to figure out what cheesy build my opponent is going for) Like last time could someone tell me what went wrong and maybe give some general tips on how to identify my opponents build with information being as limited and unlogical as it sometimes is. http://drop.sc/261003Thanks in advance.. Sorry for being a bit BM in-game, it was my fault that I lost this game and I should not let it out to my opponent.
- No need to make a Bunker that early against dual gas since he does not make a Zealot (well, sometimes they do make a Zealot when going dual gas, but you can see this with the SCV anyway). Capitalize on this and make your rax/gases earlier.
- It's Daybreak, 3 Marines can hold the Tower against a Stalker thanks to Sight Blockers. Meanwhile, you can sneak a SCV on the map to try to collect additional information.
- Don't scan on Daybreak, you will likely see nothing useful, the main area is too wide.
- No Reactor against one-base all-ins!
- Don't scan at your Tower, he could be anywhere.
- Don't get supply blocked. Supply blocks really hurt against one-base all-ins, you can lose the game just because of this. You're in a tense situation so it's easy to let your macro slip, but you really don't want to be supply blocked.
- Don't move out, don't Stim. You just crushed all his Blink Stalkers, you won, no need to move out! Obviously he handed you a gift so, being a kind person, your conscience urged you to give him back something, but really, be selfish and keep your troops. Unit retention is the key in holding a Blink Stalker all-in.
- Set SCVs on auto-repair, pull some SCVs from your main if you lost too many of them at the natural, don't Stim units outside Bunkers, don't chase unless you badly outnumber him.
As you know, 4 gate variations have more Stalkers, but they usually don't have a Robotics and thus no Observer. It means that he simply cannot break through 3 Bunkers in front of your natural. Daybreak is a very poor map for Observer Blink all-in anyway.
If you can't decide whether it's Blink Stalkers or DTs, just have an EB and a Scan ready by the 7'15 - 7'30 mark.
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On October 03 2012 04:41 Willzzz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2012 04:12 Absentia wrote:On October 03 2012 01:29 TheDwf wrote:On October 02 2012 08:42 Absentia wrote:If you have a mid-game engagement in TvP and it's a relatively even trade, is it a good idea to delay attacking again before max and 3/3 finishes? Obviously the problem with not attacking is that Protoss can tech up to whatever he wants comfortably but the chance of being ahead in upgrades once I get to 2/2 is extremely low. The chance of my army being superior in composition seems similarly low. Leaving a Protoss to take 8 gas colossus/templar makes for a lot of hard games when I don't attack, though. I know Thorzain has said previously about waiting until 3/3 and +2 ship weapons but I'm not really sure what the consensus is. Edit: http://drop.sc/260613This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. It's a pretty bad game from me, (bad control both engagements, not waiting for 1/1 and a couple more vikings, choosing to engage in the middle) but is appropriate for my question. It was not an even trade, he still had Sentries and one Colossus after the fight. You should really avoid this kind of trade as you're in a really awkward situation afterwards; your third is not yet landed, he fended off your attack so he's free to claim back map control and you're left in the dark wondering if he's tech switching or threatening to kill you with a proxy Pylon. You should wait to have enough Vikings to 2-shot Colossi before engaging, particularly on this map in which you can take advantage of the corridor between the natural and the third; moving back and forth the two bases to threaten an engagement is extremely annoying for Protoss since Vikings can harass their Colossi in the corridor with some impunity while his army tracks yours. Your fourth was too early, especially after what happened, you should throw down 3 Barracks instead and delay your fourth until at least 160-170 supply. You didn't have enough for the last fight partially because of this. Besides, if he doesn't take the Tower, no reason to stay in your base. What kind of timings should I be aiming for, though, if I take out all the colossus but can't push any further? That game, for example, I said the trade seemed relatively even because though I lost the vast majority of my ground army, I didn't lose every single viking, managed to save two medivacs and seemed fairly safe against any kind of counter-attack. At the very least, I wasn't yet out of the game but was, as you said, forced into an awkward position. Would the 2/2 timing have been ok to do if i'd put the three barracks up earlier? Are 2/2 timings good to do as a general rule or is it better to wait until max 3/3 bio and +1 ship weapons? I mean the first engagement pretty obviously went wrong but the problems there are easy to identify - trapped myself with too low viking count when the third colossus popped and not waiting for 1/1. The problems with the second engagement were partly an extension of the badly executed first engagement as well as getting the 4th CC before extra rax. My issue is more, 'as a general rule what am I supposed do between the period of my first attack and 3/3 finishing?' So because my knowledge of what to do in that period isn't great that's why I get the 4th CC so early - i'm basically planning to play defensively until 3/3 ghosts +1ship etc. The 2/2 timing in that game was more of on a whim rather than properly structured into a game plan because I'm not sure if 2/2 timings in TvP are good in scenarios where you are equal or slightly behind. I guess that's somewhat apparent by the way I build a 4th base and then decide to attack with a 2/2 timing anyway. I think your problem is that you thinking in a binary way, that either you are attacking or not attacking. You should be continually poking and prodding, but don't actually commit unless you have an advantage. Even when you are 3/3 and maxed you don't just attack regardless. You can still be out on the map with an inferior army, just don't put yourself in a position where you can't retreat. You never know when he will make a mistake and you can pounce.
On October 03 2012 23:24 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2012 04:12 Absentia wrote:
What kind of timings should I be aiming for, though, if I take out all the colossus but can't push any further? That game, for example, I said the trade seemed relatively even because though I lost the vast majority of my ground army, I didn't lose every single viking, managed to save two medivacs and seemed fairly safe against any kind of counter-attack. At the very least, I wasn't yet out of the game but was, as you said, forced into an awkward position. Would the 2/2 timing have been ok to do if i'd put the three barracks up earlier? Are 2/2 timings good to do as a general rule or is it better to wait until max 3/3 bio and +1 ship weapons?
I mean the first engagement pretty obviously went wrong but the problems there are easy to identify - trapped myself with too low viking count when the third colossus popped and not waiting for 1/1. The problems with the second engagement were partly an extension of the badly executed first engagement as well as getting the 4th CC before extra rax.
My issue is more, 'as a general rule what am I supposed do between the period of my first attack and 3/3 finishing?' So because my knowledge of what to do in that period isn't great that's why I get the 4th CC so early - i'm basically planning to play defensively until 3/3 ghosts +1ship etc.
The 2/2 timing in that game was more of on a whim rather than properly structured into a game plan because I'm not sure if 2/2 timings in TvP are good in scenarios where you are equal or slightly behind. I guess that's somewhat apparent by the way I build a 4th base and then decide to attack with a 2/2 timing anyway. It's a bit hard to give a general answer because it depends on your upgrades and your opponent's choices. When playing against Colossi → double Forge I try to hit a 1-2 timing (I get a really early Armory so I can start +2 attack as soon as +1 attack completes) before he gets Charge or, more realistically, Archons/Storm, but of course that's not always possible depending on how things went before. Basically, whenever you attack, it's way better if your attack upgrade matches his armor upgrade, and of course you want to make sure you have the adequate army composition. So, if you're 2-2 and he's not yet 3-0-3 with some Archons or Storms, you might give a try if you have enough, but don't be upset if you don't have this kind of opportunity, there will just be the classic 200/200 collision.
Thanks to you both. That helps quite a bit, (particularly since I like to get the faster armory for +2 attack as well).
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@TheDwf
Thanks once again, I love your replies. In general I think I need to learn to be less shaky against one base protosses. When I see 2 gasses and no expansion I kind of mess everything up by default which makes it harder to hold their allin whether I scout it or not.
But thanks a ton once again! <3
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United Kingdom31935 Posts
I really need some help in TvT can someone post an opening that can transition into marinetank?
Im just lost in the match up nowadays because I rarely get terran opponents in ladder but when I do its just painful -.-
Thx for the help
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On October 03 2012 14:45 SCRedditor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2012 09:44 Whatson wrote:On October 03 2012 09:17 SCRedditor wrote:On October 03 2012 01:29 TheDwf wrote:On October 02 2012 09:07 SCRedditor wrote:
Can someone post the build order for the Reactor Hellion into Banshee harass that is seen so often? I tried to do it but everything thing doesn't seem to line up well. Out of a 1 rax expand, this is the one I use: 12 Barracks 15 OC 16 Marine 16 CC 17 SCV 17 Refinery 17 Refinery 17 Supply Depot 18 SCV 19 Marine 20 SCV 21 Marine 21 Bunker 22 Factory 22 Reactor on Barracks 22 OC on natural 23 SCV 24 SCV 25 SCV 25 Starport 26 SCV 30 Hellion x2 (5'45) 31 SCV 32 SCV 32 Tech Lab on Barracks 32 Supply Depot x2 33 SCV 34 SCV 38 Hellion x2 39 SCV 40 SCV 40 Cloak (6'40) 40 Banshee Supply counts and timings are slightly off if you SCV scout. Thanks, but if you don't scout with scv, then how do you scout? Marines, hellions, banshees, scans Or you could just scout much later, since most zergs will go hatch first thanks, I tried to do that today. But by the time my hellions saw the roaches coming it was already too late.
How fast was his roach warren? I always poke the natural and maintain map control with marines, it's how I scout most roach plays. If he did the double gas immediately after queen, you should still be able to scout in time for bunkers if your marines are out on the map
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On October 03 2012 11:50 AKomrade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2012 10:07 Vega62a wrote:On October 03 2012 04:25 AKomrade wrote:On October 03 2012 03:45 Vega62a wrote:
Diamond baddie question:
Can anybody describe the masters+ level difficulties they face when going CC first into mech vs zerg? So far in all my games I've been doing CC first into hellion/banshee into standard (read: greedy) mech play, and nobody's punished me for it, but I'm also in the lower leagues. What are some troubles you've faced at the higher levels of play, and how have you solved them? Rax FE or 14 CC? The real timings set up are when you take a 3rd CC after your nat instead of teching up to reactor hellion/banshee. Otherwise, everything is the same as the normal banshee/hellion opening. The best way to hide mech is to simply not let him see it until you're prepared for muta harass or a roach push. Masters zerg don't seem to be able to handle it too well regardless. Most of the games I've played, they have either gone mutas or some muta/roach hybrid. 14 CC. Mostly concerned about what zerg can do to punish it, as I like it for a go-to build. Really nothing. Zerg players basically do the same thing. Unless he goes for a speedling before hatch opening (out of about 1000 games in the last three seasons, I've seen it twice, once today), you don't have anything to worry about. That or a six pool, but competent zerg don't play those openings cause they're god-fucking-awful vs Terran. Its really what you invest your income into that sets you up for the zerg all ins. Do you open three fact and then get an armory? Do you get a 3rd CC before starting factories? Do you go reactor hellion/banshee and go for fast armories and a CC before you make another factory? Those are the questions. No matter how you open, reactor hellion/bashee is vulnerable to super fast muta, roach busts of any kind, roach/bling allins and bling all ins. The timing varies (roach allins hit at 8:30 +, fast muta anywhere from 7:45-9:00, bling allins around 6:45-7:00), but the weaknesses carry over no matter 14/16CC or 1 rax FE.
That prettymuch answers that question for me - I'm aware of the things that zergs can do a bit later, but it seems like in general a 14cc is only punishable by the zerg going 2 hatch before pool, which is in turn punishable.
Is hellion / banshee really punishable by roach allins? I'm pretty sure the banshee pops before 8:30, so it seems to me that worst case, your banshee spends all her time killing roaches who are walking over to your base. Fast muta seems to have become the metagame counter to hellion/banshee, but knowing that terrans will probably start sneaking an ebay and turrets into their builds. The mutas popping certainly signals an end to the aggression, at least. Thanks!
Show nested quote +
On October 03 2012 03:45 Vega62a wrote:
Diamond baddie question:
Can anybody describe the masters+ level difficulties they face when going CC first into mech vs zerg? So far in all my games I've been doing CC first into hellion/banshee into standard (read: greedy) mech play, and nobody's punished me for it, but I'm also in the lower leagues. What are some troubles you've faced at the higher levels of play, and how have you solved them?
It's not about the mech follow-up, but the thing I dislike with CC first → Barracks → Refinery → Reactor Hellion → Banshees is that you have only 2 Marines in your Bunker, and dealing with Roach pressure with only 2 Marines is really obnoxious. When I was using this build, I was often making a blind Marauder (before swapping Starport with Barracks) upon scouting the Zerg went gas.
That makes sense. It's not something I've had to deal with yet (again, diamond baddie) but knowing that I might work a marauder in as well. It doesn't seem like it would delay your first banshee too much. (If you're clever with your building swapping, the marauder should actually pop before your starport finishes). I'll start doing that. Thanks!
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