EPTThe Terran Help Me Thread - Page 372
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | ||
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CaneCorso
Bulgaria7 Posts
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Doko
Argentina1737 Posts
On October 04 2012 05:03 jason_wujch wrote: I would definitely try this when I get back home and would let you know my thoughts. But this seems a little bit counter-intuitive as I would think the marines would got raped by colossus before the colossus got destroyed by the vikings. But anyway I don't know the result before trying this myself. Thanks for your help though. You fail to take into consideration guardian shield. literally all toss needs to to win this particular fight is have 2 sentries providing GS (with micro to make sure they are not stuck in the back of stalkers) for the zealots to win ridiculously easy with or without 3/3 shields. | ||
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Kamwah
United Kingdom724 Posts
On October 06 2012 00:24 Marathi wrote: Hi guys, recently I have been having some problems with my 2ghost timing push in TvP where I am hitting late and the Protoss seems to have a colossus or 2 out which really hinders the push. It's an old MKP build and you're supposed to start getting stim at 5:30, in both these games I get it after 6mins but I just don't know how I can shed the time, I think it was pre-rax nerf when they used to be quicker to build, but still I used to be able to do it at 5:30-6min in the past! The idea is that you hit early with a small force of marines, marauders and 2ghosts, EMP any sentries and try to get the shields off most stuff, then either kill him there, or kill a lot of workers or the expo and get a big lead. But lately I have been struggling. My friend who is diamond protoss pointed out somethings to me, like in 1st game I make too many depots too early, wait around a bit too much with my army. But the second game after taking my friends advice I tried to do everything as fast as I can and still a colossus was there! So basically what I am asking is why can't I hit the proper timing of 5:30 for stim, what is slowing me down, what could I cut back on, etc. Replays: http://drop.sc/261563 http://drop.sc/261562 Here is a link to build: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=226877 ugh, reading through that old thread, apparently it is weak to fast colossus play! any advice is still welcome though  Is he getting a fast collosus because he knows you're doing it? That's probably part of the problem. | ||
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Marathi
298 Posts
On October 06 2012 01:14 Kamwah wrote: + Show Spoiler + On October 06 2012 00:24 Marathi wrote: Hi guys, recently I have been having some problems with my 2ghost timing push in TvP where I am hitting late and the Protoss seems to have a colossus or 2 out which really hinders the push. It's an old MKP build and you're supposed to start getting stim at 5:30, in both these games I get it after 6mins but I just don't know how I can shed the time, I think it was pre-rax nerf when they used to be quicker to build, but still I used to be able to do it at 5:30-6min in the past! The idea is that you hit early with a small force of marines, marauders and 2ghosts, EMP any sentries and try to get the shields off most stuff, then either kill him there, or kill a lot of workers or the expo and get a big lead. But lately I have been struggling. My friend who is diamond protoss pointed out somethings to me, like in 1st game I make too many depots too early, wait around a bit too much with my army. But the second game after taking my friends advice I tried to do everything as fast as I can and still a colossus was there! So basically what I am asking is why can't I hit the proper timing of 5:30 for stim, what is slowing me down, what could I cut back on, etc. Replays: http://drop.sc/261563 http://drop.sc/261562 Here is a link to build: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=226877 ugh, reading through that old thread, apparently it is weak to fast colossus play! any advice is still welcome though Is he getting a fast collosus because he knows you're doing it? That's probably part of the problem. In both games they get robo bay without scouting my ghost academy | ||
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Ambre
France416 Posts
On October 06 2012 00:24 Marathi wrote: Hi guys, recently I have been having some problems with my 2ghost timing push in TvP where I am hitting late and the Protoss seems to have a colossus or 2 out which really hinders the push. It's an old MKP build and you're supposed to start getting stim at 5:30, in both these games I get it after 6mins but I just don't know how I can shed the time, I think it was pre-rax nerf when they used to be quicker to build, but still I used to be able to do it at 5:30-6min in the past! The idea is that you hit early with a small force of marines, marauders and 2ghosts, EMP any sentries and try to get the shields off most stuff, then either kill him there, or kill a lot of workers or the expo and get a big lead. But lately I have been struggling. My friend who is diamond protoss pointed out somethings to me, like in 1st game I make too many depots too early, wait around a bit too much with my army. But the second game after taking my friends advice I tried to do everything as fast as I can and still a colossus was there! So basically what I am asking is why can't I hit the proper timing of 5:30 for stim, what is slowing me down, what could I cut back on, etc. Replays: http://drop.sc/261563 http://drop.sc/261562 Here is a link to build: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=226877 ugh, reading through that old thread, apparently it is weak to fast colossus play! any advice is still welcome though Hi, master T here. I have been using this build a long time ago, when it was kind of good in the metagame. I watched the 2nd replay. I will give you some advices to improve, but overall I really think you should just play a more standard opening, because this one is almost all-in, it's very gimmicky, hard to pull off, and it relies heavily on spot-on timing and good micro/multitask. If I were you, I would simply work with the 2 medivacs +1 timing push. It gives you map control, permits you to take a third safely, and has the potential to do damage and end the game, but it doesn't has to. It's much more solide and will lead you to work on basics. With the ghost timing, if you don't kill stuff, you'r dead. Anyway... About the game : If you look closely at the battle, you barely managed to not kill things fast enough. If you hit 10 sec earlier, things may have been completely different. You can easily get those 10 seconds by optimizing your early game, which is not good. On the side note, look at how you engage. You just need to Stim A + clic and spam EEEE on the protoss army as quick as possible. Instead, you send your marines walking to their death and then, you stim them (that's not good). How to optimise your early game : - Build your barrack with the SCV that built the first depot. Don't take another scv out of the mineral line that early. - => You don't need to scout that early. You can send another scv when your racks is at 50-75%. - You don't need to build that 2nd depot that early. If you want to wall off to prevent probe scouting (which is good), just start building the depot with the scv leaving your base, press T to stop the building, and go on with scouting. - You don't need that bunker that early. You have a scouting scv in his main... A zealot is not a real threat, and he can't make a stalker whitout the Cybernetics. In worst case scenario, you can even wait to actually be HIT by the stalker in his main to start building the bunker at home. Because of the traveling distance, the bunker will be ready in time (sometimes you will need to pull off 2 scv to support your marines, but won't lose anything). - If you want to be safe and not worry about micro, just build your CC first, and THEN the bunker. If you want to be really greedy, build the 2 racks first, and then the bunker (I don't recommand it at your level, but in theory you can do it). - NEVER CUT SCV that early. Focus on that. You have a huge blank when you put down the CC / extra 2 racks. - Try to optimise your supply depots. I know at your level it just feels better to have "too much" rather than being always supply block, but for a timing push, you really need to optimize everything. Don't build 2 depot when you'r adding reactors to your barracks. Finally, I think with just better engagement you could have won this game, even with mistakes in your early game. Next time, don't send a marine alone to see what he has. Send immediately your ghosts, EMP, and stim behind that. That push is supposed to destroy everything he has, you need to hit fast. The only thing that can mess with your engagement is force fields. That's why you want to lead with the ghost, spam EEEEEEEEEEEE + left clic clic clic where the army should stand. That way you will most of the time get the EMP before he even can force field you. Gl hf | ||
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Marathi
298 Posts
I'll take those tips into consideration and continue to play this build, then perhaps move onto something else if it still isn't working as have had some success too with the medivac timing push but I prefer fast wins vs protoss as I find the mid-late game very hard to deal with! | ||
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Frionel
Spain12 Posts
I'm currently doing cc first, into 2rax and after I see he's expanding, I add another cc. So I usually get maxed really quick, a lot before than the protoss. But when I go to push with my 200 army (he usually only has ~150 supply) I'm totally crushed. And after that, he starts to come back into the game... and also the storms come. Yeah, you sure would say that I have to improve the way I do the engages and so, but I tried a lot of stuff and I want to change my metagame in this matchup: I'm looking for really heavy presure pushs in the early or midd game. Also I would like some all ins... Could anyone say me cool builds? Replays, vods, ... Thanks | ||
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Aquila-
516 Posts
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Frionel
Spain12 Posts
I'm doing cc first into 2rax and I'm not having too much problems. I scout if he has gas, and if he does, then I take my own gas too . After that, I throw a scan into his base and see if he is going to banshes or tanks, and with that info I can react quickly. | ||
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Willzzz
United Kingdom774 Posts
On October 06 2012 06:09 Frionel wrote: I need some help against Protoss. I'm totally stack, I don't know what to do anymore. I'm currently doing cc first, into 2rax and after I see he's expanding, I add another cc. So I usually get maxed really quick, a lot before than the protoss. But when I go to push with my 200 army (he usually only has ~150 supply) I'm totally crushed. And after that, he starts to come back into the game... and also the storms come. Yeah, you sure would say that I have to improve the way I do the engages and so, but I tried a lot of stuff and I want to change my metagame in this matchup: I'm looking for really heavy presure pushs in the early or midd game. Also I would like some all ins... Could anyone say me cool builds? Replays, vods, ... Thanks You're going to have to post a replay, you just shouldn't be losing with a 50 supply advantage. Where abouts are you engaging? At his base? In the middle? At multiple locations? | ||
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AKomrade
United States582 Posts
On October 06 2012 06:09 Frionel wrote: I need some help against Protoss. I'm totally stack, I don't know what to do anymore. I'm currently doing cc first, into 2rax and after I see he's expanding, I add another cc. So I usually get maxed really quick, a lot before than the protoss. But when I go to push with my 200 army (he usually only has ~150 supply) I'm totally crushed. And after that, he starts to come back into the game... and also the storms come. Yeah, you sure would say that I have to improve the way I do the engages and so, but I tried a lot of stuff and I want to change my metagame in this matchup: I'm looking for really heavy presure pushs in the early or midd game. Also I would like some all ins... Could anyone say me cool builds? Replays, vods, ... Thanks Well, from your side, we can't help if you don't provide a replay. If you're having problems with storms, you need ghosts to either EMP as you engage (the last possible second) OR to snipe them in the ghost/HT dance. If you are getting crushed 200 v. 150, you might want to check your upgrades before you engage. Engagements like that mean you either did something SUPERHORRIBLYWRONG or you were down 1/1 or 2/2 before the battle started. Big nono in both vP and vZ. Heavy pressure does not ever come from something like 1 Rax FE > 2nd Rax>CC. The goal with that would be to have 8:45/9:00 medivacs and stim to pressure the Protoss as you get a third CC. This also involves faster tech, so you'll be defending till 9:00 or so. The most standard order to pressure Protoss is a version of 3 Rax > 5 Rax, which you can find on Liquipedia here: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Fast_5_Rax_Aggro_(vs._Protoss) If you want the 2Rax order, find a Thorzain replay from patch 1.5 or later. This is pretty much his go to build. If you want more personalized help, you need to post a replay. Its best if you can find one that most represents your losses. On October 06 2012 06:20 Aquila- wrote: What I have been wondering about now for some time, I almost never see pros opening 1 rax gasless expo in TvT. They almost always open with a fast gas into factory. Why is that? Is the reason that it can be very hard to defend Banshees, Hellions, 1-1-1 and such things with a 1 rax FE? There are some openers like the marine/hellion elevator and a more gimmicky reaper/hellion one that abuse 1 rax FE in TvT. Some 1/1/1 and reaper expands are very hard to hold even with exact scouting, but it is possible. They may not think that the possible trade offs would be worth it. It may also have to do with the differences in opening gas and some variants of the 1/1/1 allow for more pressure while getting an expansion at the same time. Thorzain has/had a banshee 1/1/1 that cut marines for a faster CC while containing with a one gas banshee opening. Or finally, it may be because they just don't feel like a 1 rax FE gives a significant advantage over a gas opener because of the way TvT works | ||
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Autofire2
Pakistan290 Posts
So recently I encountered a player who reminded me of why I quit SC2. While I'm a lot more solid Macro wise this time (still did awful that game, though I recovered after taking my third) I have no idea how to deal with MutaBling as Terran. I messed up a lot on macro but still had like 50 supply and a couple upgrades up on my opponent, who was 2 base v 2 base for a long time. Then he got mutabling and my marines and hellions just...melted. Does lack of micro really completely overpower a 50 supply lead? I kept hearing how Macro alone could get one into diamond but really, the mutabling destroys me the same way it always has. Marines go down to bling, mutas pick off everything else. I was using the common style in Filters macro series (1 rax gasless FE into MMM with +1) with his variation of reactored hellions. What do I have to do to beat MutaBling? Should I have attacked earlier, at 10:30 rather than a couple mins later? Should I have had more marauders? Should I have gone pure bio, since the hellions didn't seem to be helping? Basically, is anything short of splitting micro (which I cannot do while focusing on macro) going to result in anything but an autolose to a zerg MutaBlinger, even one quite behind on macro? I thought Macro >>> everything else in this game... | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
And no, just having a shit ton of marines against ling bling muta means you have a shit ton of blood on the ground if you don't split, and target fire. | ||
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U_G_L_Y
United States516 Posts
On Cloud Kingdom in TvT, when you mech, how do you keep bio players from running into the natural? I leave 2 tanks an a planetary at that ramp but they can easily bust it with their whole army. If I leave more defense, I don't ahve enough to defend the 4th base. They just camp in between the natural and the 4th until they can create an opening and I lose. Should you not mech on Entombed Valley if you are close positions? I find it impossible to get a 4th base and impossible to deny a marine tank or bio player based 4-10 I seem to get a huge advantage just about every TvT and then blow it. I will hold an all-in with no damage, kill 20 workers with hellion drops, and then accidently move my whole army into a seige line at the 20 minute mark when I'm up 3 bases and just lose. Like every time. I'll be on 4 base saturated, have a way bigger army, and then get doom dropped. Anyone else do this? It seems like I make one HUGE mistake every time. Any tips? | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On October 06 2012 06:20 Aquila- wrote: What I have been wondering about now for some time, I almost never see pros opening 1 rax gasless expo in TvT. They almost always open with a fast gas into factory. Why is that? Is the reason that it can be very hard to defend Banshees, Hellions, 1-1-1 and such things with a 1 rax FE? Generally tech builds are used in TvT for cool transitions into mech and such. When you gasless FE, you end up kind of forcing yourself into a marine-heavy early-game that doesn't really transition into mech well. If you do Thorzain's FE optimization, you can hold anything with relatively few losses, but your options are just more limited (Thorzain doesn't mind this though, because he loves simple marine/tank in TvT :D). If you open with fast gas you can do fast banshees, hellion/viking, 1-1-1 variants, etc. It's all about options. On October 06 2012 10:51 U_G_L_Y wrote: Questions about maps and mech in TvT: On Cloud Kingdom in TvT, when you mech, how do you keep bio players from running into the natural? I leave 2 tanks an a planetary at that ramp but they can easily bust it with their whole army. If I leave more defense, I don't ahve enough to defend the 4th base. They just camp in between the natural and the 4th until they can create an opening and I lose. Should you not mech on Entombed Valley if you are close positions? I find it impossible to get a 4th base and impossible to deny a marine tank or bio player based 4-10 I seem to get a huge advantage just about every TvT and then blow it. I will hold an all-in with no damage, kill 20 workers with hellion drops, and then accidently move my whole army into a seige line at the 20 minute mark when I'm up 3 bases and just lose. Like every time. I'll be on 4 base saturated, have a way bigger army, and then get doom dropped. Anyone else do this? It seems like I make one HUGE mistake every time. Any tips? Mech feels like this, to be honest. It's really easy for a disadvantage for mech to snowball out of control really fast. Just make sure you're covering your tracks by putting up missile turrets/sensor towers/planetaries wherever you need them before moving the main bulk of your army. As for Cloud Kingdom, tank on the high ground, planetary choke, 2-3 tanks on the low ground should be able to hold it. If the difficulty is holding a 4th and the natural, try building 2 planetaries behind your mineral line at the 4th on the high ground, back it up with a few tanks; this should give you the flexibility to move more tanks into position at the natural. Entombed Valley seems like a really difficult map to mech on because of the really wide, open center. If you spawn in close positions, you should be expanding toward your opponent...imagine your 4th like the 4th on Antiga. Hold the high ground and slowly choke his natural. Hope this helps! On October 04 2012 21:10 dynwar7 wrote: People have been saying MVp is well known for his strong defensive play. Just what is this "defensive" people are talking about? Is it simply having enough tanks for early pressure? Or is ti a combination of having good game sense, timing etc, and having the appropriate defenses for it? It's hard to describe, honestly, but when watching Mvp, one gets the feeling of his solidness. He doesn't get caught offguard or killed with counterattacks, he isn't completely taken by surprise with drops, he just seems to know where he should be looking and exactly what to do under any circumstances. Stephano also has this characteristic of just feeling really solid and unstoppable. Always love MvP forever. Although now that Flash is involved in SC2.... | ||
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Kraidio
China133 Posts
Macro-Oriented http://drop.sc/261756 http://drop.sc/261754 Early Blink Defense http://drop.sc/261755 | ||
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Willzzz
United Kingdom774 Posts
I watched the Daybreak game. You need to scout, you need to tighten up your build a bit, not missing SCV, getting your factory down a little earlier. The biggest thing though is when you throw your army away for no reason @ 12:30 You have a third on the way he doesn't, you have no need to attack, and certainly not after you've just been posturing outside his base, letting him warp in more units and get his third colossus. Sort out your upgrades, if you already have 1/1 on the way from a single ebay, you need the armoury BEFORE the 2nd ebay. Don't overbuild SCVs, 79 is too many period. | ||
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Kraidio
China133 Posts
On October 06 2012 20:26 Willzzz wrote: @Kraido I watched the Daybreak game. You need to scout, you need to tighten up your build a bit, not missing SCV, getting your factory down a little earlier. The biggest thing though is when you throw your army away for no reason @ 12:30 You have a third on the way he doesn't, you have no need to attack, and certainly not after you've just been posturing outside his base, letting him warp in more units and get his third colossus. Sort out your upgrades, if you already have 1/1 on the way from a single ebay, you need the armoury BEFORE the 2nd ebay. Don't overbuild SCVs, 79 is too many period. Thanks a bunch! Will do. | ||
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Autofire2
Pakistan290 Posts
But MutaBling continues to be the bane of my existence. Particularly the Bling part. The replay below is actually me beating one of the zergs (top bronze now, used to be gold in earlier season like myself so probably, like me, working his way back up) but, my slipping macro notwithstanding (should have had about 10 more supply at 10:00) it felt...urghhh. I feel like I had to outplay the guy twice over to BARELY eke out a win, and even that would have been really tough had I not scouted his baneling bust coming. Is bio without MarineKing micro just completely bad against zerg? I've been told to go marine tank but I really want to stick with this build and filter seemed to make it work all the way through platinum. Anyway any comments on the rep would be incredibly appreciated. Is macro still my main problem, or the build, or micro or what? I'd much rather finish working on my macro before doing other stuff. Here's the rep: http://drop.sc/262045 | ||
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