|
Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
On October 07 2012 09:31 xPabt wrote:
When going hellion banshee 3CC into bio-tank is it better to suicide your hellions for drones or keep them as long as possible to deny creep?
Is getting cloak worth it if you are going bio-tank?
Any general advice on how to control the Zerg's creep spread?
In general, it's much better to keep your hellions alive when going bio-tank unless you're certain you're going to do significant damage with them. The reason why is that hellion/banshee forsakes barracks, (and hence significant unit production) early on in favour of double ebays and third bases whilst maintaining a powerful presence on the map. If you lose those hellions without doing significant damage, you not only give up the majority of the map control you have, but can also leave yourself vulnerable to timings, (be they early timings to punish low unit count, or later to punish the fact you weren't able to assert yourself on the zerg's half of the map).
I don't personally like to get cloak when i'm going banshee into bio-tank because it delays upgrades. You can still get drone kills with two uncloaked banshees and will still have the protection against anything crazy early on.
Timings are very important for clearing out creep spread (1/1, 2/2). Your hellions/banshees early on to snipe queens are obvious ones, (though creep can be harder to deny on certain maps like Ohana and Antiga because the amount of area that needs covering is smaller and hence better defended). Sending small numbers of marines (3-4) along alternative attack paths whilst you do your pushes. If you can keep queens busy in the early game, forcing them to defend a building third base or use transfusions, for example, this can also slow down creep spread early on.
|
I'd like to weigh in with the observation that in my experience, just practising what I was bad at was 50x more useful than constantly searching for a better and better guide. At the end of the day, whatever people tell you to do, you eventually have to become able to do it yourself. And if it works for other people, its not the strategy's fault.
|
I hope it is the right place for such a thing...
I have a problem with TvZ. I can't really say what is my weakest side in this mu, besides I suck at TvZ. Here is my replay of a recent game vs bugs. I would really appreciate if someone could tell me what should I improve in my build/mechanic/everything to get better at this MU.
http://drop.sc/262206
|
What's the best reaction/transition in TvZ if I go (proxy) 2rax and my opponent goes pool first? I played a game on Cloud Kingdom where I proxied between my nat and 3rd and my first scouting SCV already encountered 2 lings, pool first and ~150 gas mined with still three drones mining. So I guess we giveup on bunker rushing and rallye marines back but how can we scout what he's doing? He'll have tower control and will most likely deny any sort of scouting so I can't know if and which 1base allin might be coming (and moving out with my army can loose me the game?!). How would you transition from that?
|
On October 07 2012 19:56 Hero1 wrote:
What's the best reaction/transition in TvZ if I go (proxy) 2rax and my opponent goes pool first? I played a game on Cloud Kingdom where I proxied between my nat and 3rd and my first scouting SCV already encountered 2 lings, pool first and ~150 gas mined with still three drones mining. So I guess we giveup on bunker rushing and rallye marines back but how can we scout what he's doing? He'll have tower control and will most likely deny any sort of scouting so I can't know if and which 1base allin might be coming (and moving out with my army can loose me the game?!). How would you transition from that?
If your opponent goes for Pool First against your 2-Rax you should rally Marines back until having at leeast 7. You should scout with a SCV if he goes for an expansion, if he denies your scout you should scan the main if he took gas and if so what buildings he has.
If he stays on one base there is a point where you outproduce your opponent with 2-rax. This point can be different every game since you can't know exactly when your opponent builds Drones or when he builds units.
In my opinion it's ok to push with 7-9 Marines since that number of Marines will trade cost-efficient as long as your stutter step (and focus fire for single Banelings, he can't have more then a few at that point, most likely none) is decent.
Also with that Marine-push you will definitely scout whats up, if he got lots and lots of Lings you should stay defensive in your main base, build your expansion CC in your main and 2 Bunkers in preparation for a Baneling Bust.
If he expands you can rally you Marines towards his base and start doing damage with the Marines you got. You will either win the game right there because he had to build Drones or do a lot of damage (force units instead of Drones) and you can transition into 5-rax all-in or double-CC.
There is no definite answer to your question as a lot depends on what your opponent builds when. You have to scout (suicide SCV) and poke with Marines a lot
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________
On October 07 2012 19:54 Bazy wrote:I hope it is the right place for such a thing... I have a problem with TvZ. I can't really say what is my weakest side in this mu, besides I suck at TvZ. Here is my replay of a recent game vs bugs. I would really appreciate if someone could tell me what should I improve in my build/mechanic/everything to get better at this MU. http://drop.sc/262206
You make a lot of execution mistakes (supply blocks, buildings not in control groups, very late armory, banshee mismicro) but that are rather small points that you can improve on with more practice.
The first real mistake you do is suiciding your Hellions. At that point you had 9 Marines, 2 Tanks and a Medivac. Your Hellions give you map-control and they are a threat to your opponent.
You decide to try to get Drone kills, giving that up at a timing that seems very random to me. You haven't got a good defense, you haven't got your third, you didn't even have control of your own watchtower.
That allowed him to attack you, containing you on 2 bases and killing your Tanks.
It would have been better to keep the Hellions alive for a little bit longer, until your production kicks in (or when he tries to push, force him back with your Hellions)
Instead he could contain you and take his 4th and 5th base without any problems.
Another big point is that you don't continue your upgrades. Upgrades are very important.
But the biggest problem so far is that you let your opponent get map control and therefore control of the game and you never tried to get it back at all. You stayed in your base for the rest of the game, not scouting at all, not even taking your own watchtower. You didn't know what was going on at your opponents side until you got a drop into his main.
You didn't know anything about his tech path.
And then you decide to do a final 3-base-push at 18 minutes with Marine-Marauder-Tank, not knowing if he went for Broodlords or Ultralisks.
You didn't do anything the whole game after losing the Hellions. You stayed in your base and build units, not even checking once if you even build the right units. Also you were on 2-1 upgrades against 3-2.
You have to work at your decision making. Don't do stuff just to do it.
Do stuff because there is a reason. If you drop, do that to distract your opponent from a push going on on the other side of the map.
Don't build Marauders because you like Marauders or because your opponent used some Roaches in the early stages of the game. Scout what your opponent has (or plans to have, for example the building greater spire) and build units to counter that.
Take the initiative. Take your own watchtower and feign a push at the left side of the map while dropping at the right side.
But for all of that you need to know what your opponent does. This game has 2 players in it, you can't just sit in your base and build stuff and hope to win.
Don't ask 'How is this balanced' if you let your opponent control the whole game without any resistance and then lose.
|
How do you hold 1 gate expo into 3 gate aggression by cutting probes? I went flash concussive 3xorbital build and got rolled even though i had bunker at the front. Maybe could have held it if my 2 newly constructed raxes didn't build reactors at the time but I'm doubtful. My opponent said to build three bunkers but that's just bullshit, no way in hell am I building three bunkers against a 1 gate expo unless I scan 6 gates or more.
|
I've been having a lot of trouble in TvT nowadays. Most people are opening with either cloak Banshee or Marine/Hellion/Medivac pressure. What are the ideal build orders for those openings? Is the fast CC still viable?
|
On October 08 2012 00:20 BrandFilt wrote:
How do you hold 1 gate expo into 3 gate aggression by cutting probes? I went flash concussive 3xorbital build and got rolled even though i had bunker at the front. Maybe could have held it if my 2 newly constructed raxes didn't build reactors at the time but I'm doubtful. My opponent said to build three bunkers but that's just bullshit, no way in hell am I building three bunkers against a 1 gate expo unless I scan 6 gates or more.
I don't know the exact unit counts since I don't play the Concussive into 3CC myself but normally you should be able to hold an aggressive 3-gate with 2 Bunkers.
A little tip: hotkey all your SCVs at your natural and have one SCV or Marine standing a little bit outside your natural in front of the bunkers (for example at the bottom of the natural ramp when there is one). Then you get can see an attack a few seconds earlier and that allows you to pull the SCVs via hotkey in time to surround your own bunkers so they can't be blocked away by Force Fields that easily.
Also not getting supply-blocked and constantly building units is very important in such a situation. Every second of supply-block or not building can make the difference between an easy hold and a total loss at such early-game aggression situations.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________
On October 08 2012 00:25 DelugeSC wrote:
I've been having a lot of trouble in TvT nowadays. Most people are opening with either cloak Banshee or Marine/Hellion/Medivac pressure. What are the ideal build orders for those openings? Is the fast CC still viable?
You can do a Banshee opening with 12 Rax 13 Gas or with 12 Gas 13 Rax. At both builds you take your 2nd Refinery around 16-17 supply. The Marine-Hellion-Drop is pretty straight forward, build 12 Rax 13 Gas, Factory asap, Starport asap and Marines and Hellions (and Depots and SCVs) throughout.
For more information on build orders and timings there is this thread: WoL Openings and Timings
We see quite a lot of 1-Rax FE in pro matches, so I guess it's still viable. There are several different ways to transition out of a 1-Rax FE, either with fast double-Refinery and fast tech or with fast additional Raxes and a lot of Marines early and also some in-between stuff like the build Polt uses almost every time.
(He gets one additional Rax and then double Gas to either go into Cloak Banshees of 2 bases or directly for Marine-Tank-Medivac or Marine-Tank-Viking if his opponent tries to do a one-base tank push, he relies a lot on his scouting to decide how he wants to transition)
|
Hey, so I'm tired of playing TvP. What's the BO to allin with proxy marauders (I like marauders), or perhaps 2rax if it's better. I checked liquipedia but they're just pressure and then FE. Thanks guys
|
On October 08 2012 03:39 invisible.terran wrote:
Hey, so I'm tired of playing TvP. What's the BO to allin with proxy marauders (I like marauders), or perhaps 2rax if it's better. I checked liquipedia but they're just pressure and then FE. Thanks guys
Try the byun 2-1-1. It's a 2 rax fake, with a fake 1 mara 5 marine pressure into marine tank medic all in that hits before any 1-1-1 with 2 tanks a medic and about 25 marines with stim and CS. It's straight sex.
|
On October 08 2012 03:41 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2012 03:39 invisible.terran wrote:
Hey, so I'm tired of playing TvP. What's the BO to allin with proxy marauders (I like marauders), or perhaps 2rax if it's better. I checked liquipedia but they're just pressure and then FE. Thanks guys Try the byun 2-1-1. It's a 2 rax fake, with a fake 1 mara 5 marine pressure into marine tank medic all in that hits before any 1-1-1 with 2 tanks a medic and about 25 marines with stim and CS. It's straight sex.
replay?
|
On October 08 2012 03:45 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2012 03:41 iAmJeffReY wrote:On October 08 2012 03:39 invisible.terran wrote:
Hey, so I'm tired of playing TvP. What's the BO to allin with proxy marauders (I like marauders), or perhaps 2rax if it's better. I checked liquipedia but they're just pressure and then FE. Thanks guys Try the byun 2-1-1. It's a 2 rax fake, with a fake 1 mara 5 marine pressure into marine tank medic all in that hits before any 1-1-1 with 2 tanks a medic and about 25 marines with stim and CS. It's straight sex. replay?
http://www.gosubuilds.com/terran-build-orders-2/terran-vs-protoss/tvp-byuns-marinetankmedivac-allin/
replay in the link.
|
It's about the only TvP build I do on most 2 player maps now. Cloud, ohana, daybreak. Anything with those abuseable low ground before natural that you can range their main and natural and do a strong push into them.
|
What are your guy's thoughts on thors and hellions mixed into bio tvz? I have had some success with a 10 minute MMM + hellion push into MMM hellion thor. I'm wondering if this is something that can work at the higher level.
|
On October 08 2012 00:20 BrandFilt wrote:
How do you hold 1 gate expo into 3 gate aggression by cutting probes? I went flash concussive 3xorbital build and got rolled even though i had bunker at the front. Maybe could have held it if my 2 newly constructed raxes didn't build reactors at the time but I'm doubtful. My opponent said to build three bunkers but that's just bullshit, no way in hell am I building three bunkers against a 1 gate expo unless I scan 6 gates or more.
There are usually some tells if he's going for that build. Scouting chrono on warp gates(and still seeing an expo) is one of them, another big one is if you spot a probe out on the map. Trying to chase the stalker away with 5-6 marines and taking the watchtower is a big win. 1 bunker is not enough usually, 2 is enough if you react properly. Once you know it's coming, make sure to have 2 bunkers, and put scvs on auto-repair and hold position in front of them(about 4-5 for each bunker at least). Target sentries with the marines inside the bunkers. The lost mining time isn't that big of a deal, because if you're greedy with the scv pull it might be too late.
|
On October 08 2012 03:41 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2012 03:39 invisible.terran wrote:
Hey, so I'm tired of playing TvP. What's the BO to allin with proxy marauders (I like marauders), or perhaps 2rax if it's better. I checked liquipedia but they're just pressure and then FE. Thanks guys Try the byun 2-1-1. It's a 2 rax fake, with a fake 1 mara 5 marine pressure into marine tank medic all in that hits before any 1-1-1 with 2 tanks a medic and about 25 marines with stim and CS. It's straight sex.
Well, I want some blind cheese that straight up kill him (think of 2 proxy gate in BW). But this looks good, I'll give it a try, thanks anyway.
|
New to terran and after getting bored of playing macro zerg i'm looking to practice some timings, could you suggest a nice rush/timing for every match up to practice?
|
On October 08 2012 00:20 BrandFilt wrote:
How do you hold 1 gate expo into 3 gate aggression by cutting probes? I went flash concussive 3xorbital build and got rolled even though i had bunker at the front. Maybe could have held it if my 2 newly constructed raxes didn't build reactors at the time but I'm doubtful. My opponent said to build three bunkers but that's just bullshit, no way in hell am I building three bunkers against a 1 gate expo unless I scan 6 gates or more.
You can hold with 2 if your reaction time for pulling SCVs is amazing. If you don't see his units until they are focusing your bunker, 2 bunkers will not hold. I guess it depends on your skill level
|
On October 08 2012 05:09 invisible.terran wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2012 03:41 iAmJeffReY wrote:On October 08 2012 03:39 invisible.terran wrote:
Hey, so I'm tired of playing TvP. What's the BO to allin with proxy marauders (I like marauders), or perhaps 2rax if it's better. I checked liquipedia but they're just pressure and then FE. Thanks guys Try the byun 2-1-1. It's a 2 rax fake, with a fake 1 mara 5 marine pressure into marine tank medic all in that hits before any 1-1-1 with 2 tanks a medic and about 25 marines with stim and CS. It's straight sex. Well, I want some blind cheese that straight up kill him (think of 2 proxy gate in BW). But this looks good, I'll give it a try, thanks anyway.
Oh this will kill them, easily. If they react as supposed to the 2 rax fake, off their 1 gate FE, you just roll the fuck out of them with a VERY early 2-1-1 push that hits before any 1-1-1 ever did, with stim, cs, and a medic.
You just rally the 2 rax 1 fac and port to the front and continue to make 3 marine 1 tank 1 medic cycles.
This is a very blind cheese that works almost regardless of their build. Little to no tailoring is needed. It's safe against blink robo all ins, 3 gate pressure, 6 gate, etc. As when they attack into you before you move out, you have 2 tanks and siege mode with stim already. They walk into a death trap. It's a matter of micro, sniping sentries and stalkers, letting infantry kill zealots as you stutter step the infantry.
This ends the game in 11 minutes, tops. You win, or you lose. More often than not, you win, just due to sheer surprise and numbers. I fake the 2 rax really hard, and pressure their front and avoid being FF'ed in, and target their building nexus to force more stalker warp ins. The more stalkers/sentries, the sexier this push becomes. It's almost laughable when they react right, and go so heavy on gate with stalker/sentry that the tank/marine push loses almost no units.
What are your guy's thoughts on thors and hellions mixed into bio tvz? I have had some success with a 10 minute MMM + hellion push into MMM hellion thor. I'm wondering if this is something that can work at the higher level.
I used to do the demuslim stim cs +1 marine marau hellion push, and follow it up with a 5 rax 2 fac hellion marine marauder + thors mixed in late game. Very viable. Very aggressive strategy that requires solid micro and multitasking. But, yes, it works.
|
Kind of random but assuming I am going pure bio with medivacs, how many barracks and starports can I support for 1, 2 and 3 bases?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
