EPTThe Terran Help Me Thread - Page 335
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
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kranten
Netherlands236 Posts
On August 17 2012 20:00 klops wrote: i haven't played in many months due to school, but i want to start playing again. i want to watch some vods or replays for a few days. which televised terrans are doing well these days in vP and vZ matchups? TaeJa is doing very well recently, vs all races. I think Bomber looked very impressive in TvP this IEM. He does the same build every game: It delays gas a bit and instead gets more barracks to put on alot of pressure. It's not very late game oriented though since your upgrades are a bit delayed. Day[9] did a daily on it a while ago. | ||
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yoigen
Germany369 Posts
On August 18 2012 07:30 Blazinghand wrote: One hard-and-fast rule is that each CC makes ~3.5 scvs per minute. It's a little more than this, but 3.5 is an easy number to calculate with At the 10 minute mark, with just your main, if you cut 2 scvs to make an orbital command and you start with 6 scvs, you should be at 39 scvs. so on one base, you'll be at about 35 scvs at the 9 minute mark. If you want to be at 50 scvs, that means your nat has to make 15 of them, which means it had to be producing for 4 minutes, which means it has to finish becoming an OC at 5:00, which means you need to start it at 3:25, which isn't normally doable with a 1 rax FE. That being said, you can definitely get CLOSE to 50 scvs with a 1 rax FE, and you definitely definitely can get 45. I start my command center at 3:10-3:15 everytime I 1rax FE in tvp and tvt, I don't see why that shouldn't be possible. | ||
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DrPimp
United States4 Posts
I was plat in season 1 and I know most of the "theories" and thoughts about how to handle things, but it seems like that's not enough. For example, I can scan and see the spire going down (or up) at around the 9 - 10 minute mark yet when I pump out marines and transition to thors. I'm still devastated. No matter what I do, I can't seem to harass or break out of my base when they pressure me in. I get upgrades, but their armies are just stronger. This is against Z and P. Does anyone have any suggestions how to early harass? or any advice anyways? | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
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Wardi
England897 Posts
I was wondering if anyone has any tips or ideas on how to scout/defend a 3 gate pressure after a 1 gate FE. I find myself sometimes getting lucky, seeing a chrono on the Cyber which makes me a bit suspicious but I feel like I have to pre-pull SCVs to be able to repair my bunkers. This is fine if he actually does the pressure but if he doesn't and I've made a mis read I will be heavily behind. So is there any reliable way to scout this other than trying to sneak that SCV into his main and the standard SCV patrolling in front of your ramp? | ||
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Garns
Germany3 Posts
On August 18 2012 07:45 Blazinghand wrote: Oh oops math fail. Well then 45 it is, and 52 at 10 Glad I'm not the only one  .On August 18 2012 07:59 yoigen wrote: I start my command center at 3:10-3:15 everytime I 1rax FE in tvp and tvt, I don't see why that shouldn't be possible. I believe this becomes rather difficult if you build the second depot before you put down the CC. I think we can conclude that giving hard numbers for SCV production is rather pointless unless you also state a specific build. The easiest way to check if your SCV production is going ok would be going through the replay on x8 and staring at the production tab, which has the added benefit that you can see what you are wasting your time on, when you should actually be making SCVs. | ||
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Squisher16
United States9 Posts
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Pillage
United States804 Posts
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On August 18 2012 14:26 Pillage wrote: What's the best way to hold a marine-hellion elevator push assuming you went 1 rax fe? Bunkers by the mineral lines and marauder slow? Bunker in front of your natural with one Marine inside, Depots at the edges of your base so you see him, constant Marine production (don't get supply blocked!), one Marauder on the Lab Tech rax (get Combat Shields first), attack before he's done dropping and pull some SCVs if necessary. | ||
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Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
On August 18 2012 10:59 Squisher16 wrote: hey terrans, i wanted to know how to perfectly engage a maxed toss army and how many ghosts i should have. i know the vikings and ghosts in front, but whenever i engage it seems like before i snipe or emp most of the templar my ghosts die to collosi fire sice they are in front. I can also never seem to snipe all of the tosses observers so my ghosts always die first. thnx ♥! Follow his army movement with sensor towers, xel naga watch towers, hellions, scans, etc. See if he has observers near or with his army. Eliminate them with your ghosts if you can, well in advance of the engagement as is possible. 16 ghosts is a good number if you can afford their cost + supply. I'd say 10 at a minimum. Move your army near his if his composition and unit count make an engagement look favourable. Snipe any ht you can, then blanket his army with emps. If your army was near enough to start fighting, go ahead. Else if he can retreat split your army up a bit to harass/kill an expo his retreating army no longer can defend (a single ghost to nuke is good). Even if he recharges his shields before you can fight him it's ok since the strength of his army is in his spellcasters' energy. If you can corner his army to engage it (usually chase him into a critical location he absolutely has to defend, move to engage. Keep scouting or scanning to look for high templars along his retreat path that weren't with his army, and thus have energy still. No point in allowing protoss to storm your army as it chases or get off critical feedbacks. Whenever the fight happens blanket his army in emp again, target any carriers or colossi he has with yamato, and throw seeker missiles at those targets too (if he's stalker heavy, maybe drop a pdd or two also, depending on your raven count). Then target his immortals and surviving archons with 250mm strike cannons with your thors. Drop mules from your extra OCs to repair your army, then find something else to kill if he hasn't left yet. If his warp-in is too strong to allow a continued battle given your lack of energy and lower hp see if there's an expo you can go after instead, or break off part of your army towards an expo that he has to send his force after allowing your key units to retreat if battered. What are you making vikings for, btw? Yamato 1shots colos after emp. | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On August 18 2012 00:19 Garns wrote: Isn't 50 SCVs at 9:00 a bit high, especially if you take your natural somewhat late? Filtersc's Bronze to Master's Benchmarks aim for at least 50 SCVs at 10:00 and that's with 1 Rax FE. Unless you drop a third CC in somewhere in your base really early I don't see how you can get 50 SCVs at 9:00. Seems difficult, maybe with CC first. Let's do some Math  Assuming constant SCV production for 9 minutes except when you upgrade to Orbital: 1 CC: 6 SCVs at the start, SCV build time is 17s OC upgrade time is 35s: 6 + ( ( 9 * 60 - 35 ) / 17 ) = 35 2nd CC starts at 3:45 (1 Rax FE): CC + OC is 135s: 35 + ( ( 6 * 60 + 15 - 135 ) / 17 ) = 49 Numbers are floored, we only count SCVs which have finished building. More than I expected, but this assumes pitch perfect play and is somewhat optimistic. You will have the short pause while you wait for the first depot to finish and you tend lose a few seconds at the start and when starting/finishing the OC upgrade. So 50 at 9:00 could be doable if you start your 2nd CC around 3:00 or if you add a third CC before 7:30. I don't mind aiming high, but maybe 50 at 9:30 or more than 50 at 10:00 is a bit more realistic. @Flak: You may find Filtersc's Bronze to Masters playlist worth looking at. General rule of thumb for production facilities you can support is 3.5 per saturated mining base, i.e. 3 rax on 1 base, 6rax and a starport on two bases and so on. You build less than that since you want to keep money for upgrades and additional bases, which leads to the numbers given by SC2John Would you like to see a replay? I usually open up gasless FE into a barracks play, putting my 3rd down before 7:30, and I can always reach 50 SCVs by 9:00 with perfect macro. And BTW, a benchmark is assuming perfect play, otherwise it really wouldn't be a benchmark. In response to the last portion, I can open 3-5 barracks with a delayed gas for a faster 3rd CC. You reorder the tech timings in order to gain an economic lead while still retaining the ability to produce optimally off of your production facilities. IN ADDITION, you can support up to 5 barracks with add-ons on 2 fully saturated bases or 4 rax with add-ons + medivacs or tanks. However, producing at such a high level makes it hard to build a 3rd or 4th CC, and is therefore economic to produce off of 3.5ish structures like you said (and which I assume is what you meant). But with the reordering of CC and tech as stated above, you can easily support all of that while expanding simultaneously, completely eliminating that problem. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On August 18 2012 15:10 Nightmarjoo wrote: Follow his army movement with sensor towers, xel naga watch towers, hellions, scans, etc. See if he has observers near or with his army. Eliminate them with your ghosts if you can, well in advance of the engagement as is possible. 16 ghosts is a good number if you can afford their cost + supply. I'd say 10 at a minimum. Move your army near his if his composition and unit count make an engagement look favourable. Snipe any ht you can, then blanket his army with emps. If your army was near enough to start fighting, go ahead. Else if he can retreat split your army up a bit to harass/kill an expo his retreating army no longer can defend (a single ghost to nuke is good). Even if he recharges his shields before you can fight him it's ok since the strength of his army is in his spellcasters' energy. If you can corner his army to engage it (usually chase him into a critical location he absolutely has to defend, move to engage. Keep scouting or scanning to look for high templars along his retreat path that weren't with his army, and thus have energy still. No point in allowing protoss to storm your army as it chases or get off critical feedbacks. Whenever the fight happens blanket his army in emp again, target any carriers or colossi he has with yamato, and throw seeker missiles at those targets too (if he's stalker heavy, maybe drop a pdd or two also, depending on your raven count). Then target his immortals and surviving archons with 250mm strike cannons with your thors. Drop mules from your extra OCs to repair your army, then find something else to kill if he hasn't left yet. If his warp-in is too strong to allow a continued battle given your lack of energy and lower hp see if there's an expo you can go after instead, or break off part of your army towards an expo that he has to send his force after allowing your key units to retreat if battered. What are you making vikings for, btw? Yamato 1shots colos after emp. Thing is, most people play bio in TvP. But maybe you answered this way because you know he plays mech in TvP? | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On August 18 2012 14:26 Pillage wrote: What's the best way to hold a marine-hellion elevator push assuming you went 1 rax fe? Bunkers by the mineral lines and marauder slow? It really depends on what followup you do. If you decide to go for tech, the best solution is a really fast tank and really good micro (SCV repair + marines focusing hellions). If you go for a mass barracks play, just make sure you're continually producing marines (WAIT to add any reactors if you don't scout your opponent expanding by 4:00), place a bunker at the front, and rally marines after initial 4 to your ramp. If you do the Thorzain optimization, you will get combat shields out right before this push and can continually produce 5 marines at a time (which, even if you lose your first group of marines, SCVs + your reinforcements should be able to clean up the attack). | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On August 18 2012 09:42 Wardi wrote: Hey guys, I was wondering if anyone has any tips or ideas on how to scout/defend a 3 gate pressure after a 1 gate FE. I find myself sometimes getting lucky, seeing a chrono on the Cyber which makes me a bit suspicious but I feel like I have to pre-pull SCVs to be able to repair my bunkers. This is fine if he actually does the pressure but if he doesn't and I've made a mis read I will be heavily behind. So is there any reliable way to scout this other than trying to sneak that SCV into his main and the standard SCV patrolling in front of your ramp? 1). Just do the Bomber optimization. You can throw down a blind bunker or two without any economic repercussions before the push and be completely safe. 2). Do a marine shove at about 6:00 with 9ish marines. You should try to kill off the stalker sitting at your front and take the watchtower. If you see an offensive moveout around 6:00-6:15 with a probe, start your bunkers at home and patrol the SCV in front of your ramp. This timing should also coincide with your SCV scout so you don't accidentally walk into a 4-gate. | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On August 18 2012 08:42 DrPimp wrote: So, i'm having a couple problems myself. I was plat in season 1 and I know most of the "theories" and thoughts about how to handle things, but it seems like that's not enough. For example, I can scan and see the spire going down (or up) at around the 9 - 10 minute mark yet when I pump out marines and transition to thors. I'm still devastated. No matter what I do, I can't seem to harass or break out of my base when they pressure me in. I get upgrades, but their armies are just stronger. This is against Z and P. Does anyone have any suggestions how to early harass? or any advice anyways? Honestly, your best defense is to get a really strong economy going earlier. This is the growing trend in TvZ. Players have now started doing things like 1rax FE into triple CC or CC first, etc, to get the economy going a lot faster. The other trend is a shift from tank-based armies to bio-based armies. If you're having difficulties with mutas, I suggest just going a shitton more marines and delay your tanks/thors in favour of faster infantry tech. Also, as a general rule, remember that marine/tank engages VERY well with muta/ling and so really direct pushes are quite good against muta/ling. Against infestor/ling, you should be abusing the mobility of drops and multi-pronged attacks since infestor/ling is quite strong against marine/tank. ...The OTHER general trend in TvZ is just going apeshit aggressive in the early game, although I don't like this option as much. This trend includes opening 2-3 rax, 1rax expand into 2-port banshee, thor rushes, suicidal hellions, etc. These builds require a lot of control and more advanced macro in order to pull off as successfully, as well as a necessity to do damage. | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On August 18 2012 07:59 yoigen wrote: I start my command center at 3:10-3:15 everytime I 1rax FE in tvp and tvt, I don't see why that shouldn't be possible. ...And yeah, wth? No one goes depot after rax, it's stupid. We had this discussion in another thread; it's far more economical and perfectly safe to build a CC after barracks with the first marine, right at 3:10. THE ONLY USE FOR THAT SUPPLY DEPOT IS FOR "MIND GAME" PURPOSES. User was warned for quadruple posting | ||
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Garns
Germany3 Posts
On August 18 2012 15:23 SC2John wrote: Would you like to see a replay? I usually open up gasless FE into a barracks play, putting my 3rd down before 7:30, and I can always reach 50 SCVs by 9:00 with perfect macro. And BTW, a benchmark is assuming perfect play, otherwise it really wouldn't be a benchmark. In response to the last portion, I can open 3-5 barracks with a delayed gas for a faster 3rd CC. You reorder the tech timings in order to gain an economic lead while still retaining the ability to produce optimally off of your production facilities. IN ADDITION, you can support up to 5 barracks with add-ons on 2 fully saturated bases or 4 rax with add-ons + medivacs or tanks. However, producing at such a high level makes it hard to build a 3rd or 4th CC, and is therefore economic to produce off of 3.5ish structures like you said (and which I assume is what you meant). But with the reordering of CC and tech as stated above, you can easily support all of that while expanding simultaneously, completely eliminating that problem. I believe you. I was just saying that you need to do pretty much excactly what you just described to get 50 the way you do .I Wouldn't mind seeing a replay anyway, but just out of personal interest. | ||
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Wardi
England897 Posts
On August 18 2012 15:35 SC2John wrote: 1). Just do the Bomber optimization. You can throw down a blind bunker or two without any economic repercussions before the push and be completely safe. 2). Do a marine shove at about 6:00 with 9ish marines. You should try to kill off the stalker sitting at your front and take the watchtower. If you see an offensive moveout around 6:00-6:15 with a probe, start your bunkers at home and patrol the SCV in front of your ramp. This timing should also coincide with your SCV scout so you don't accidentally walk into a 4-gate. Hm. Sometimes even with two bunkers I lose, as he kills one bunker before my SCVs get to the bunker and the second he has enough forcefields to deny the repair. Thanks for the tips. | ||
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Bwall
Sweden145 Posts
On August 18 2012 18:19 Wardi wrote: Hm. Sometimes even with two bunkers I lose, as he kills one bunker before my SCVs get to the bunker and the second he has enough forcefields to deny the repair. Thanks for the tips. When the attack comes, it's important that you use those first precious seconds correctly. First of all, you need to get ur scvs there to repair(kinda obvious). The second most important thing in my opinion is to target sentries with the marines in your bunkers. If you have two or more bunkers, just ctrl+click a bunker, and then just queue up attack commands on his sentries. Once you get really good, target high-energy sentries first. If a bunker goes down, don't forget to save the marines in it. Make a rally point backwards and simply unload right before it dies. | ||
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