EPTThankfully this all-in seems to be pretty rare. I just hope more zergs don't catch on >_<
(high master)
The Terran Help Me Thread - Page 328
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poppenfrack
28 Posts
Thankfully this all-in seems to be pretty rare. I just hope more zergs don't catch on >_< (high master) | ||
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Gosi
Sweden9072 Posts
On August 09 2012 10:54 Qibla wrote: Diamond Terran Wondering why 1 rax fe is the standard TvP? I've spoken to some protoss players and they've told me they love it when we 1 rax fe because they can do whatever they want. All the timings are known. I'm not having much success with it. It's a thin line to defend 1 base pushes. You get no eco advantage vs a 1 gate fe, and even less to a nexus first. I just played a game where he 1 gate double fe'd, I went 1 rax fe and pushed off 3 rax when stim finished, His army was pretty much equal to mine, so I could do 0 damage. I move back and he takes a fourth when I'm taking my 3rd. I don't know where our "mid game advantage" is. How hot is your multitasking? Because I find 1 gate double FE kinda easy to punish if you have good multitask (and not to shit on P players but most of them even at my level (~high master) have awul mechanics. You push with your first 2 medivacs, poke a little just to get him on his toes, try a drop to just be annoying and to make him waste warp ins and stuff and fall back to "his" watchtower, meanwhile you poke you should rally all your production to this watchtower. And then when you have 4 medivacs you scan to snipe the observer and drop with 3 dropships in the main while sniping the third or the other way around according to his main army position. If you can do this while not slipping in macro yourself and therefor missing the timing before his 3rd kick in you should be fine. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On August 09 2012 10:54 Qibla wrote: I don't know where our "mid game advantage" is. There is none, this mid-game advantage theme is a stupid lie to justify the gross imbalance of PvT late game. That being said, we usually have the initiative—which does not necessarily translate to having the advantage since being able to pressure does not mean you will do any (substantial) damage. For your concerns: On August 09 2012 10:54 Qibla wrote: Wondering why 1 rax fe is the standard TvP? Strong economy while safe with proper scouting (which is the tricky part). On August 09 2012 10:54 Qibla wrote: You get no eco advantage vs a 1 gate fe, and even less to a nexus first. Depends, 1 gate FE can be gasless Nexus after Gateway as it can be Nex 30 around the 4'50 mark. You will have a slight economic advantage against some variations. Against Nexus first you can try Bunker pressure. Remember that you're free to go triple OC if you confirmed an expand. On August 09 2012 10:54 Qibla wrote: I just played a game where he 1 gate double fe'd, I went 1 rax fe and pushed off 3 rax when stim finished, His army was pretty much equal to mine, so I could do 0 damage. I move back and he takes a fourth when I'm taking my 3rd. Yes, 1 gate double expand is very tricky. Basically, if you don't go Marine pressure out of 4 or 5 rax, you have to sneak a SCV (which on most maps means challenging the Stalker holding your tower) to his third to see if he went double expand. If you played standard 3 rax medivacs, going 5 rax before third should allow you to do enough damage to equalize or outright win (e. g. Polt vs MC on Antiga in a IGN event, perhaps IPL Fight Club), because the Protoss player is actually in a kind of awkward position, usually having have neither Robo nor ready tech—only 6/7/8 gates and maybe a Council researching (he cannot head straightaway for dual forge etc., otherwise he does not have enough to hold your Medivac pressure) while he has to control a wider area than usual. So, with clever troops splitting and drops, you should be able to deal enough damage. But of course, if you do little to no damage, his superior economy will simply stomp you afterwards, so bear in mind that this critical 2-4 Medivacs window has to yield tangible results. Of course, it's not the time to be supply blocked, etc. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On August 09 2012 12:15 poppenfrack wrote: So, dealing with the 7:30 roach/bling timing is easy peasy, but I have yet to win a game against the even faster roach/ling all-in. By the time 7+ roaches and 20+ speedlings hit, all the terran has (assuming 1rax fe into banshee/hellion) is 2 hellions, 2 marines in a bunker, and a banshee maybe 1/4 done. Does anyone have an answer to this or do I just need to accept that choosing to macro in tvz is basically begging for your opponent not to make units? On some maps it's possible to have a wall up, but even assuming that you still lose a ton of scvs if you want the wall to stay up. Thankfully this all-in seems to be pretty rare. I just hope more zergs don't catch on >_< (high master) Indeed, the problem with the new TvZ macro builds is that they have some atrocious vulnerabilities against some of the Zerg attacks you describe. Since you don't have much to deal with this when it comes, you need your third Marine which you should be able to afford (time-wise) before making the Reactor. Depending on the map, your Bunker should be adjacent to your CC so you can partially wall-off to your ramp with one or two additional Depots; that way, Speedlings cannot surround your bunker. You will usually lose many SCVs, but, well, if you retain enough of them to make a third (or maybe it's already started depending on your build order), you can still have the edge as his own third will be delayed, his creep spread will be inexistant and your Hellions/Banshees give you map control. Maybe making a Marauder before swapping Starport with Barracks could help too if you feel something weird is going on. | ||
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vayuu
Canada66 Posts
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On August 09 2012 13:57 vayuu wrote: I just screwed up against a scouted proxy gate because my scvs stopped repairing on of the depots after it got back to full health; i didn't notice and the zealots got inside. How do you set an scvs to "perma" repair like in those old thor pushes where the scvs's just follow the thor, or in my case hover around waiting to repair a depot? Right click on the Repair icon or Alt-R. | ||
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ordinarY
United States55 Posts
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Willzzz
United Kingdom774 Posts
On August 09 2012 15:01 ordinarY wrote: Played a P today that didn't chrono anything, so it made me think he was 4gating me. I scan, he's still not chronoing. I poke the front with naked marines (because I have a ton of them at this point and medi's in production) and he has 1 colossus. While watching the rep, he is also getting HT after he expands. How do you stop this? Like the not-chrono thing played some inadvertent mind-games with me, he had double gas and wasn't expoing or chronoing, which sets off all the flags for immortal bust, or DT's. But wtf? Do i just keep teching up and hope that he doesn't push cause he hasn't yet? was pretty baffling. Never rule out that he might just be bad. If a player does something like this just put down another couple of bunkers and then play normal. Don't let his ambiguous play affect you too much. After all you are always heading to the same place regardless of his tech right? It's always MMM, once you get your first 2 medivacs you can poke and work out if you need vikings/ghosts then. | ||
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zefreak
United States2731 Posts
On August 09 2012 15:01 ordinarY wrote: Played a P today that didn't chrono anything, so it made me think he was 4gating me. I scan, he's still not chronoing. I poke the front with naked marines (because I have a ton of them at this point and medi's in production) and he has 1 colossus. While watching the rep, he is also getting HT after he expands. How do you stop this? Like the not-chrono thing played some inadvertent mind-games with me, he had double gas and wasn't expoing or chronoing, which sets off all the flags for immortal bust, or DT's. But wtf? Do i just keep teching up and hope that he doesn't push cause he hasn't yet? was pretty baffling. You deal with this by double fist-pumping that you are playing against people this bad. Nobody just doesn't chrono to mind-game, because it's not worth the econ/research/army loss. What league are you in? | ||
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decaf
Austria1797 Posts
On August 09 2012 08:41 Anthonie wrote: I'm sorry, I wasn't able to find any good vods on this style, or any reps, and the list of which addons to put on where is kind of confusing.. Any clarity? Look harder, I linked it, GSL VODs should suffice, it's where I got it from. You build the tech lab and the reactor on both your raxes after starting the factory. You will use that TL to research stim and the rax on the reactor gets swapped with the factory, which you produce a total of 6 hellions out of. You start a 3rd rax as soon as you got the money for it, now you got 2 empty raxes, since you swapped one -> get 2 reactors on these, you now have 2reactored barracks and a tech lab one. After you started these 2 reactors you wait until you have enough gas for a starport - and build one. You're gonna swap it with the factory, which is gonna be used for tanks later on. You'll notice by the time yor startport will be done you still have hellions in queue, that means you can start the starport later - at about 170gas and not 100, that saves you a few minerals when you need em for smooth production cycles. After you swapped the starport with the fac you start double medivac production. Marineking pushes before these are done at ~8:30 and lets them follow up. I think it's needless to say you're gettin combat shields once stim is done. At around 9mins you have enough minerals without interrupting a production cycle to build a 3rd, build it at your 3rd. Add double ebay and double gas and get tank production ready, first tank should pop at ~11min. Now go and watch the GSL VODs. | ||
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
On August 09 2012 10:54 Qibla wrote: Diamond Terran Wondering why 1 rax fe is the standard TvP? I've spoken to some protoss players and they've told me they love it when we 1 rax fe because they can do whatever they want. All the timings are known. I'm not having much success with it. It's a thin line to defend 1 base pushes. You get no eco advantage vs a 1 gate fe, and even less to a nexus first. I just played a game where he 1 gate double fe'd, I went 1 rax fe and pushed off 3 rax when stim finished, His army was pretty much equal to mine, so I could do 0 damage. I move back and he takes a fourth when I'm taking my 3rd. I don't know where our "mid game advantage" is. Here's the practice game we played: http://drop.sc/235743 I watched through it again just now, and I think we both played imperfectly from a macro standpoint. I actually haven't been playing much the last few days because of the FPS issues, so I was a bit out of whack in terms of executing some aspects of the build--I almost 13 scouted and then realized I wanted to open Parting 13-17 and pulled the probe back. I liked the early stim because it caught me off guard when I was on the map and it also makes you safer versus big aggression; however I think you need to do something behind that early stim push with delayed medivacs. Maybe it's a third a little faster, with less gasses taken in general. Maybe it's double upgrades. I don't know, but we basically traded in the middle of the map and I had 3 established Nexi to your 2 CCs, so there was something wrong with that trade in the long run. The rest was me being ahead by a ton of workers, so I think you were dead regardless of the composition I went. I played pretty sloppily in terms of upgrades and when I built higher tech structures, but being ahead with Phoenix+Colossus...let's just say it's hard to lose if you pay attention to your army. | ||
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Anthonie
Netherlands220 Posts
On August 09 2012 17:29 decaf wrote: Look harder, I linked it, GSL VODs should suffice, it's where I got it from. You build the tech lab and the reactor on both your raxes after starting the factory. You will use that TL to research stim and the rax on the reactor gets swapped with the factory, which you produce a total of 6 hellions out of. You start a 3rd rax as soon as you got the money for it, now you got 2 empty raxes, since you swapped one -> get 2 reactors on these, you now have 2reactored barracks and a tech lab one. After you started these 2 reactors you wait until you have enough gas for a starport - and build one. You're gonna swap it with the factory, which is gonna be used for tanks later on. You'll notice by the time yor startport will be done you still have hellions in queue, that means you can start the starport later - at about 170gas and not 100, that saves you a few minerals when you need em for smooth production cycles. After you swapped the starport with the fac you start double medivac production. Marineking pushes before these are done at ~8:30 and lets them follow up. I think it's needless to say you're gettin combat shields once stim is done. At around 9mins you have enough minerals without interrupting a production cycle to build a 3rd, build it at your 3rd. Add double ebay and double gas and get tank production ready, first tank should pop at ~11min. Now go and watch the GSL VODs. Mhm, thanks. It might just be me, but I looked at the GSL vods, and to watch any games containing MKP and a zerg player, I have to be a premium member. :x | ||
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decaf
Austria1797 Posts
On August 09 2012 17:58 Anthonie wrote: Mhm, thanks. It might just be me, but I looked at the GSL vods, and to watch any games containing MKP and a zerg player, I have to be a premium member. :x I mean I got the premium account, but I thought there was at least one game either in ro32 or ro16 where he used that strat vs a zerg in the first round, I think it was on antiga shipyard. As far as I remember he played 3 different zergs in those rounds, I might be wrong though, unfortunately I don't have any replays of me doing that build either, since I've been injured for so long now. | ||
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Striker.superfreunde
Germany1119 Posts
If i want to play ghosts as harass unit, when can i involve them into gameplay? In most cases, ghosts are needed somewhere between second and third expansion. But how/when can i include them in my gameplay, if they should have more of a purpose then being the answer to spellcaster x? Something like multi-pronged nuke drops, cloaked worker sniping, or just beeing arround with them on the battlefield and hit & run? Can someone even afford this in midgame, or will you most likely die, as ghosts and nukes are a huge investment at the "early" stages of the game? | ||
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Anthonie
Netherlands220 Posts
On August 09 2012 18:33 decaf wrote: I mean I got the premium account, but I thought there was at least one game either in ro32 or ro16 where he used that strat vs a zerg in the first round, I think it was on antiga shipyard. As far as I remember he played 3 different zergs in those rounds, I might be wrong though, unfortunately I don't have any replays of me doing that build either, since I've been injured for so long now. Ah, none of the 2012 vods have mkp in the first game :/ Thanks for the clarifying post above though! I'll totally experiment with the style  | ||
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Efficient
Australia32 Posts
I hope this isn't too much to ask and thanks in advance for any help! | ||
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Wardi
England897 Posts
On August 09 2012 19:37 Efficient wrote: I'm finding TvT confusing. I've tried 1rax expanding but this automatically signals the other guy to get stupidly aggressive. Perhaps what bothers me most is it denies me scouting, map control and I feel really vulnerable to whatever attack or contain the other player does. The follow ups after a FE play are really intricate and holding a big 1 base shove is difficult. It probably works at higher levels but I'm not comfortable playing with such limited information when all I really want to do is focus on my mechanics. I've been watching some Taeja replays for ideas but does anyone else here have some useful links to guides, VODs, threads or builds? My goal is to learn so I was looking for stuff that is safe-ish, involves expanding at some point and lets me scout or at least have some map control. I hope this isn't too much to ask and thanks in advance for any help! I know exactly what you are talking about as I had this pain in TvT on my way to Masters and in all honesty TvT is a wonderful match up because you can decide just how aggressive you want to be from the start with a multitude of builds, as well as being able to play passive and expand and defend. I'll list a few things which you can search around for/look into and see what you feel is best. I'll go from most economical to most aggressive. Reaper expand - this allows for scouting of your opponents base while still getting an early expand, combat shields and transitioning into heavy marine openings. This is more or less a 1 Rax FE with a bit of extra map control in the early stages of the game. 1 Rax FE into Double Gas - this is probably the safest of 1 Rax FE builds. After you expand you rush double gas and you go up to 2 rax, 1 fact and 1 sport. This allows you to get a viking out to defend banshees and also have seige tech on the way to defend from 1 base pushes. Repairing your tank will allow you to defend a multitude of builds and in general I think this is a better build if you want to 1 Rax FE safely. You do however give up fast marine upgrades because of the gas going into tanks, so you will have to play passively until you get them upgrades rolling and are up to 3-4 tanks. Iirc Demuslim/Illusion do this build a fair amount in TvT. You can also follow up with Hellions and Banshees if you prefer and put on some aggression of your own. 1 Gas 1/1/1 Openings - there are a few different kinds of these and all of them are very safe because you are staying on one base for a fair while. Because you are only on one gas you will get your expansion down around the 7-8 minute mark while being aggressive with your units. Theoretically you must do damage if your opponent 1 Rax FEs, because otherwise they will be very far ahead economically and in marine upgrades etc. The two main openings from 1 Gas 1/1/1 are - Marine/Hellion Elevator - with this you get your 1/1/1 up and usually push across the map with 8 Marines, 3 Hellions and 1 Medivac (with a 4th Hellion possibly catching up from behind). If your opponent fast expands and does not expect this coming and you can unload into his main base he will take a lot of damage. Focus on SCVs but if you can see the opportunity to take out researching Tech Labs etc do target these as well - delaying his upgrades will make your follow up a lot stronger. Cloakless Banshee - with a cloakless Banshee you can take map control early on until he gets a Viking out. You should be able to get a few SCVs from the edges of his base as well as maybe a few marines if you can control well. If he puts up enough turrets that you can't find any holes then you have more or less done the damage just by forcing minerals to be spent on turrets. At home you have the Factory and Barracks available and you can start your own upgrades, get some tanks out early or add on Hellions to take even greater map control as you expand. The beauty of 1/1/1 openings is that if you scout your opponent going for a Banshee then you can get a viking out to defend with ease. Also if your opponent is on one base too then you are in a good even position - as you have the same economy and probably similar army values. These builds can also be done off of a gas first to really speed up the process and get them units out faster to hit the timing earlier. I think anything with double gas delays the expansion a lot more than you are maybe looking to do, however there are also cloaked Banshee builds and others which will give you map control and early aggression options, but again you wont have that natural expansion down for a fair amount of time. Remember to scan you opponents main at around 5 minutes to get a rough idea what he is going for if you scouted gas, so that you can respond correctly and be safe with whichever build you are using. If you have any questions about any of this just say and I'll do my best to clarify/answer, or maybe someone else can help out too Edit: Sorry I can't provide you with links to any guides or anything; hopefully my post will help you to search out some guides/build orders | ||
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Wardi
England897 Posts
On August 09 2012 18:34 Striker.superfreunde wrote: Hi everyone! If i want to play ghosts as harass unit, when can i involve them into gameplay? In most cases, ghosts are needed somewhere between second and third expansion. But how/when can i include them in my gameplay, if they should have more of a purpose then being the answer to spellcaster x? Something like multi-pronged nuke drops, cloaked worker sniping, or just beeing arround with them on the battlefield and hit & run? Can someone even afford this in midgame, or will you most likely die, as ghosts and nukes are a huge investment at the "early" stages of the game? Hey! I personally think Ghost harass is a hugely unexplored area and that if you have the APM and multi tasking to be Ghost dropping and nuking multiple places you will really begin to stress your opponents out. However as you pretty much pointed out, they are a pretty big investment and this makes getting them out in the early-mid game a bit of an issue. In TvP you are probably getting them up as that third base becomes saturated, however at this point you will want to be focusing on cloak and moebius reactor upgrades and I don't think it's really until the late game when you get a 4 base gas income/you are banking resources that you can afford the investment of numerous ghost academies, ghosts to be dropped and nukes themselves. If this is the style you want to play I think you should aim to go into the late game strong and relatively passively, focusing on defending bases and forcing your opponent to come to you and fight into your pre-spread units if they want to engage. Playing passively like this of course allows your opponent to get extra bases up, however with the ghost harass you will be able to start shutting these bases down relatively quickly. Of course if you can play aggressively, continue to expand and get to this late point in the game while doing so you will be in an even better position so I think the answer to your question is it really depends how confident you feel - if you feel you can harass and attack while building up a strong late-game economy and nuke transition then go for it and add them ghost academies on as soon as the 4th base is going up and and you are getting maxed. If you aren't as confident just take your time - play passively, defend and get them up when you feel you are able to. Sorry if this is maybe a bit vague, what I'm trying to get at I think is it's really about the situation of the game and how confident you feel playing it. | ||
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justin010296
Philippines4 Posts
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caznitch
Canada645 Posts
On another note, can someone point me to a thread that discussed building placment? Tried searching but didn't find anything. I'm looking for the best ways to set up your natural when you're expecting a baneling bust, the best way to combat a protoss 4 gate and the best ways to set up a 3rd/4th vs zerg. | ||
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) passive or too greedy for my taste.
