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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On August 09 2012 15:01 ordinarY wrote:
Played a P today that didn't chrono anything, so it made me think he was 4gating me. I scan, he's still not chronoing. I poke the front with naked marines (because I have a ton of them at this point and medi's in production) and he has 1 colossus. While watching the rep, he is also getting HT after he expands. How do you stop this? Like the not-chrono thing played some inadvertent mind-games with me, he had double gas and wasn't expoing or chronoing, which sets off all the flags for immortal bust, or DT's. But wtf? Do i just keep teching up and hope that he doesn't push cause he hasn't yet? was pretty baffling.
A protoss saving chrono boosts often indicate a 4gate, but if he has 2 gasses (which he almost certainly does if he's doing 1 base colossus) he's almost certainly not 4gating you, and is instead going for a tech allin or safe expansion. The saved chrono boosts indicate a tech allin, either void rays or colossi. There's also a small possibility of Sentry 4gate.
If he's saving chrono boosts and is on one gas, that indicates a 4 gate.
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On August 10 2012 01:37 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 15:01 ordinarY wrote:
Played a P today that didn't chrono anything, so it made me think he was 4gating me. I scan, he's still not chronoing. I poke the front with naked marines (because I have a ton of them at this point and medi's in production) and he has 1 colossus. While watching the rep, he is also getting HT after he expands. How do you stop this? Like the not-chrono thing played some inadvertent mind-games with me, he had double gas and wasn't expoing or chronoing, which sets off all the flags for immortal bust, or DT's. But wtf? Do i just keep teching up and hope that he doesn't push cause he hasn't yet? was pretty baffling. A protoss saving chrono boosts often indicate a 4gate, but if he has 2 gasses (which he almost certainly does if he's doing 1 base colossus) he's almost certainly not 4gating you, and is instead going for a tech allin or safe expansion. The saved chrono boosts indicate a tech allin, either void rays or colossi. There's also a small possibility of Sentry 4gate. If he's saving chrono boosts and is on one gas, that indicates a 4 gate.
you can do a 4 gate off of 2 gas, it just comes slightly later but you can do a 4 gate
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Any tips on spotting Baneling/Roach all-ins in TvZ? There seems to be so many variations that you can't just spot it by the lack of 3rd or 3 gases.
NA 850 point M terran.
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On August 10 2012 02:22 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 01:37 Blazinghand wrote:On August 09 2012 15:01 ordinarY wrote:
Played a P today that didn't chrono anything, so it made me think he was 4gating me. I scan, he's still not chronoing. I poke the front with naked marines (because I have a ton of them at this point and medi's in production) and he has 1 colossus. While watching the rep, he is also getting HT after he expands. How do you stop this? Like the not-chrono thing played some inadvertent mind-games with me, he had double gas and wasn't expoing or chronoing, which sets off all the flags for immortal bust, or DT's. But wtf? Do i just keep teching up and hope that he doesn't push cause he hasn't yet? was pretty baffling. A protoss saving chrono boosts often indicate a 4gate, but if he has 2 gasses (which he almost certainly does if he's doing 1 base colossus) he's almost certainly not 4gating you, and is instead going for a tech allin or safe expansion. The saved chrono boosts indicate a tech allin, either void rays or colossi. There's also a small possibility of Sentry 4gate. If he's saving chrono boosts and is on one gas, that indicates a 4 gate. you can do a 4 gate off of 2 gas, it just comes slightly later but you can do a 4 gate
Indeed. That is a small possibility of a sentry 4gate.
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On August 09 2012 08:35 RoboBob wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 04:28 Marathi wrote:How viable do people think sky terran is in TvT? Does anyone have a good build order for it? I've been trying to transition into it from iEchoic 2fact2port but I feel like I need something with a fast expo in so I can build up a bigger army and just harass with banshees and hellion drops later on, rather than going pressure into 2nd CC I am still having a really hard time vs the standard marine/tank/viking composition, I find myself to be quite comfortable with sky terran but it is just getting to that point of having a nice army before I get killed, I used to play 1rax FE in TvT into MMM but found myself dying to 1base tank pushes a lot  so I quit it I don't think its viable to open with Sky Terran in TvT. I wish there were some way to make it work, but Marines, Missile Turrets, and Scan all make early game Sky play very difficult to pull off without hero Banshee harass. The iechoic build was fun while it lasted, but its been nerfed several times and long been figured out.. The problem with going Sky Terran is that its really easy for most opponents to just pump Marines. In lategame TvT you need lots of AoE in order to fend off 3/3 Marines. And Seeker Missile is not dependable enough to fill that role. The opponent will be able to pump Marines much faster than you can pump Seeker Missiles. So you need either Tanks, Hellions, or your own Marines to deal with them. However, in the super-duper lategame Sky Terran has always been the best army composition. After all the minerals mine out of the map and neither player can make Marines, Sky destroys everything else on the ground.
Well I would plan to build BFH alongside my sky terran, because like you say marines are a huge problem.
I think I would probably spend my upgrades on vehicle weapons and air armour at first just to keep those pesky mariners at bay.
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On August 10 2012 02:27 Laughing wrote:
Any tips on spotting Baneling/Roach all-ins in TvZ? There seems to be so many variations that you can't just spot it by the lack of 3rd or 3 gases.
NA 850 point M terran.
This, and I'm also having trouble spotting a 6gate. It seems like a good idea to scan around 7:15~ as that is when they should be putting their gates down but its so easy to hide them, is there any other tell to look for?
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On August 09 2012 23:04 justin010296 wrote:
Hi I am mid gold in NA and SEA server. So my question is when to add production buildings in mid-late game or when got your 2nd cc fully saturated I noticed this on some of my replays im losing vs T cuz my opponent had more production buildings than mine
On 2 base you will want to have 5ish Rax a Sport and Factory, and upgrades. As you get your third you should add on more as you get the minerals basically. Basically at any point excess minerals means you don't have enough stuff to spend money on with your income (unless youre missing rounds of units), so use your excess minerals to add extra production.
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On August 10 2012 00:40 caznitch wrote:
Is going MMM vs zergling/baneling possible if you DON't (can't) unit split? I hate going marine/tank and was wondering what other relatively easy option I had for dealing with zergling/baneling. I usually get rolled when I try MMM vs. this but I'm not sure if it's just do to poor macro.
On another note, can someone point me to a thread that discussed building placment? Tried searching but didn't find anything. I'm looking for the best ways to set up your natural when you're expecting a baneling bust, the best way to combat a protoss 4 gate and the best ways to set up a 3rd/4th vs zerg.
Probably not because the strength of MMM vs ling/bling is saving your marines, letting Marauders tank in the front etc. You will never be successful with Bio if you aren't splitting because fungals and bane-lings are just going to be way too effective against you.
Sorry I can't help you on a building placement thread
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1500 master terran here: is there someone here that has a good winrate vs protoss allins? The moment I see protoss players take their second gas, and no expo, there are so many builds he can do:
- immortal bust
- 3 gate voidray
- dt rush + dt drop
- blink stalker
- gas 4gate
- collossus bust
- 4 gate warpprism
- phoenix
I have a sick hard time against this kind of play. I open 1rax FE into 4 rax when I scout this, but I just don't hold those allins OR I hold but I can't punnish the protoss (forcefields). My stim and starport is late because I delay gas (4rax).
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Hi.
I'm a masters zerg who just switched to terran. I'm looking for a few openers that I can use in the matchups.
TvP - When should 1/1 start compared to when you get starport tech? Also does anyone have a good gasless 1rax fe build?
TvT - If you are going a 1/1/1 with expand for one banshee and one viking do you need double gas, if so when do you take it? What do you prefer, bio, bio/mech, mech?
TvZ - Anyone know a good 15cc build order?
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On August 10 2012 07:51 Olsson wrote:
Hi.
I'm a masters zerg who just switched to terran. I'm looking for a few openers that I can use in the matchups.
TvP - When should 1/1 start compared to when you get starport tech? Also does anyone have a good gasless 1rax fe build?
TvT - If you are going a 1/1/1 with expand for one banshee and one viking do you need double gas, if so when do you take it? What do you prefer, bio, bio/mech, mech?
TvZ - Anyone know a good 15cc build order?
tvp - +1 is usually started before port, or 1-1 simultaneously after port. Check almost any tvp rep for 1rax cc build. 10depot 12rax 13depot (wall) 20 cc (no marine/scv cut) 23 rax rax 24 gas gas, techlab asap, stim, ebay, fact, +1, gas, port, techlab reactor, gas, combat shield, medic medic, concussive, rax rax, reactor techlab, cc, armory, ebay, 2-1, ghost acad, moebius reactor, rax rax rax, then adapt to circumstances.
tvt - 2nd gas if you cloak or simultaneous air/siege tank right after you start fact; else 1 suffices; I personally prefer mech.
tvz - 15cc 16rax scout 17gas oc oc bunker (near cc if scout fast gas) fact gas reactor (2 marine), port, techlab, hellions, cloak, banshee, cc (6 hellion, rally fact to 3rd cc for 4 hellion), be aggressive with hellion/banshee, gas gas, ebay ebay stim rax rax rax rax rax (if bio, or fact fact if mech, then armory ebay)
On August 10 2012 05:46 Snowbear wrote:
1500 master terran here: is there someone here that has a good winrate vs protoss allins? The moment I see protoss players take their second gas, and no expo, there are so many builds he can do:
- immortal bust
- 3 gate voidray
- dt rush + dt drop
- blink stalker
- gas 4gate
- collossus bust
- 4 gate warpprism
- phoenix
I have a sick hard time against this kind of play. I open 1rax FE into 4 rax when I scout this, but I just don't hold those allins OR I hold but I can't punnish the protoss (forcefields). My stim and starport is late because I delay gas (4rax).
Scout for proxies with first scv (leave before stalker out), you can block nat with ebay if he skipped zlot to confirm no nexus (or very late at least), send 2nd scv when first one leaves his main to scout for proxies elsewhere en route to his main, scout his main again (with both scvs in case one dies before it gets there), if you can't scout presence or absence of a nexus with 2nd scout use nat oc energy to scan (aim for his main, with the edge of the scan seeing his nat).
4gate drop looks like a 4gate (1gas, chronos saved); beware of 5gate voidray also, but that's likely to be proxied
blink usually has 2 stalker, where dt usually just has 1 (especially drop)
colos and immortal both come really late, so suspect that if he still has no nexus after a 3rd scout (if nothing's happening and you aren't sure wtf going on)
phoenix is harmless
2gas 4gate, voidray, blink, dt all require a fairly early proxy pylon, so look for probe movement/pylons
gasless 4rax beats immortal, voidray, and is ok vs dt (since you can easily afford ebay), but is awful vs blink or colos; recommend going standard or getting 1gas; if you really need extra minerals take 1 scv off each gas, you mine ~80% normal income with just 2 on each
if the main has a lot of surface area with outside area (cloud, antiga, plateau, etc) blink is very likely; need 1-2 bunkers in main as well as in nat vs this; preemptive bunker in main isn't a bad idea as it can help vs a lot of the other builds too
spread vision around main with depots to see void or drop
put 2 marines in 2 bunkers in nat, 1 marine in front of nat (as is possible), and rally rest to just above ramp to defend drops
if you can't rule dt out, make ebay and make 2 turrets, don't save scans; absolutely fastest dt hits a little before 6, 6:30 is early but more common, safe dt hits at 7:30, dt after nexus hits at 8:00
punishing these builds usually requires medics, better to "punish" by getting fast 3rd
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So today, Day9 did his daily on Taeja's "Controlling" TvZ style where he based most of his play on heavy heavy agression throughout the early and mid game stages to keep the creep and expansions under control as opposed to the common super fast crazy upgraded max army to try and power through the late game while turtling throughout the early and mid game with little baby pokes out. Day9 only showed one game though where the zerg got pretty late speed so taeja was able to stay on the zerg's side of the map for a long time until close to 10 minutes I think. I was wondering, if zerg got pretty fast speed like where they pull the drones of gas right after 100 gas, how could we still keep controlling the creep? I know hellions are probably one of the choices but enough lings can definitely push away the hellions for the queens to go crazy with creep, not to mention the queens do very well against hellions as well. So what other ways can Terran keep controlling the creep and expansions if zerg were to get fast ling speed, while still being able to transition quickly into the constant in your face type of agresssion that Taeja did in the daily?
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If you scout gas in time you can hellion/banshee instead to control creep.
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If you do 1 rax FE in TvP....do you build the second CC before second supply depot ,or after? Or are both options viable? what is more popular?
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On August 10 2012 16:51 Scila wrote:
If you do 1 rax FE in TvP....do you build the second CC before second supply depot ,or after? Or are both options viable? what is more popular?
Both are viable and it really depends on what you want to do. Building it before the second depot is a lot more economical and will mean you start getting your mules and SCVs faster whereas the second depot first can help to deny information and block your opponents worker from getting into your base etc.
I would tend to think that CC before depot is more popular, because a lot of people do not wall off in TvP so there is no real reason to get the second depot first.
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How do I deal with a mass expanding speedling Zerg?
I realize it´s extra greed knowing I can´t hit quickly on a 1RaxFE. I seem to really behind and stay for the duration of the game, since drops get easily dealt with by superior economy with speedlings+creep.
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On August 10 2012 18:52 Daswollvieh wrote:
How do I deal with a mass expanding speedling Zerg?
I realize it´s extra greed knowing I can´t hit quickly on a 1RaxFE. I seem to really behind and stay for the duration of the game, since drops get easily dealt with by superior economy with speedlings+creep.
I think this massively depends on the build you are doing and so maybe a bit more information/a replay would help. If you are taking a fast 3 CC then you should be able to keep up in economy and expansions yourself (remembering that Zerg should usually be 1 expo ahead anyways).
However as some general advice:
Try to keep the creep cleared throughout the game. Opening Hellion Banshee is one way to really try and keep that creep spread pinned back.
If the creep is back it allows you to be more open with how you move your army. What you have to remember is if you see him expanding extremely greedily he won't have as much army / as fast tech as you might think. You can use drops to drag his army in one direction so you can safely move across the map and set up a position to snipe a base, for example dropping the main base while moving in to kill the fourth. Moves like this also give you time to set up expansions of your own.
Keep drops alive - if you can get into his base and snipe a couple of drones that's great, but if you pick up as soon as you see speedlings you will have traded much more effectively. If you are really careful with your drops you'll be able to find new holes in his drop defence and keep them out on the map for moments when you know his army is extremely out of position. This will also help with picking off them new bases. Often you can even keep a drop in the back of where his new base will be, a quick stim will kill it or force a cancel if you react fast enough to spotting it.
Later in the game using nukes is a good way to deny the extra bases as well, however this might be much later in the game than what you are referring to.
I hope this helps a bit, let me know if I missed the point of your question/if you have any queries about what I've said.
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On August 10 2012 11:22 Nightmarjoo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 07:51 Olsson wrote:
Hi.
I'm a masters zerg who just switched to terran. I'm looking for a few openers that I can use in the matchups.
TvP - When should 1/1 start compared to when you get starport tech? Also does anyone have a good gasless 1rax fe build?
TvT - If you are going a 1/1/1 with expand for one banshee and one viking do you need double gas, if so when do you take it? What do you prefer, bio, bio/mech, mech?
TvZ - Anyone know a good 15cc build order? tvp - +1 is usually started before port, or 1-1 simultaneously after port. Check almost any tvp rep for 1rax cc build. 10depot 12rax 13depot (wall) 20 cc (no marine/scv cut) 23 rax rax 24 gas gas, techlab asap, stim, ebay, fact, +1, gas, port, techlab reactor, gas, combat shield, medic medic, concussive, rax rax, reactor techlab, cc, armory, ebay, 2-1, ghost acad, moebius reactor, rax rax rax, then adapt to circumstances. tvt - 2nd gas if you cloak or simultaneous air/siege tank right after you start fact; else 1 suffices; I personally prefer mech. tvz - 15cc 16rax scout 17gas oc oc bunker (near cc if scout fast gas) fact gas reactor (2 marine), port, techlab, hellions, cloak, banshee, cc (6 hellion, rally fact to 3rd cc for 4 hellion), be aggressive with hellion/banshee, gas gas, ebay ebay stim rax rax rax rax rax (if bio, or fact fact if mech, then armory ebay)
Thank you, great answers!
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On August 10 2012 19:10 Wardi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 18:52 Daswollvieh wrote:
How do I deal with a mass expanding speedling Zerg?
I realize it´s extra greed knowing I can´t hit quickly on a 1RaxFE. I seem to really behind and stay for the duration of the game, since drops get easily dealt with by superior economy with speedlings+creep. I think this massively depends on the build you are doing and so maybe a bit more information/a replay would help. If you are taking a fast 3 CC then you should be able to keep up in economy and expansions yourself (remembering that Zerg should usually be 1 expo ahead anyways). However as some general advice: Try to keep the creep cleared throughout the game. Opening Hellion Banshee is one way to really try and keep that creep spread pinned back. If the creep is back it allows you to be more open with how you move your army. What you have to remember is if you see him expanding extremely greedily he won't have as much army / as fast tech as you might think. You can use drops to drag his army in one direction so you can safely move across the map and set up a position to snipe a base, for example dropping the main base while moving in to kill the fourth. Moves like this also give you time to set up expansions of your own. Keep drops alive - if you can get into his base and snipe a couple of drones that's great, but if you pick up as soon as you see speedlings you will have traded much more effectively. If you are really careful with your drops you'll be able to find new holes in his drop defence and keep them out on the map for moments when you know his army is extremely out of position. This will also help with picking off them new bases. Often you can even keep a drop in the back of where his new base will be, a quick stim will kill it or force a cancel if you react fast enough to spotting it. Later in the game using nukes is a good way to deny the extra bases as well, however this might be much later in the game than what you are referring to. I hope this helps a bit, let me know if I missed the point of your question/if you have any queries about what I've said.
Can you give a BO for Hellion+Banshee?
I guess my biggest problem is passivity (no creep reduction, only drop harass, too predictable) and the feeling insecure about my own defense. I started walling off natural and then third, but since it´s something new, it makes everything else go less smooth. I´m too late on my third, because I think I cannot defend it.
Basically I don´t really know how much army is enough to push, especially early in the game. I wait for med-vacs which are kinda late and then just use my army to secure my third. I need to overcome the feeling that zerg has everything, while I have nothing and earlier pressure. So do you think I should get routine in walling-off (depots+bunker e.g.) in order to move out, or is that not really necessary when you apply the correct pressure?
Maps with an off third like Antiga and Daybreak seem especially uncomfortable to me, though dropping should be stronger there. Thinking of it, Antiga vs Zerg is kind of a mystery to me, considering that it´s supposed to be T favored.
edit: checked out the MMA hellion+banshee. Looks like what I need, gonna try that 
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On August 10 2012 19:32 Daswollvieh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 19:10 Wardi wrote:On August 10 2012 18:52 Daswollvieh wrote:
How do I deal with a mass expanding speedling Zerg?
I realize it´s extra greed knowing I can´t hit quickly on a 1RaxFE. I seem to really behind and stay for the duration of the game, since drops get easily dealt with by superior economy with speedlings+creep. I think this massively depends on the build you are doing and so maybe a bit more information/a replay would help. If you are taking a fast 3 CC then you should be able to keep up in economy and expansions yourself (remembering that Zerg should usually be 1 expo ahead anyways). However as some general advice: Try to keep the creep cleared throughout the game. Opening Hellion Banshee is one way to really try and keep that creep spread pinned back. If the creep is back it allows you to be more open with how you move your army. What you have to remember is if you see him expanding extremely greedily he won't have as much army / as fast tech as you might think. You can use drops to drag his army in one direction so you can safely move across the map and set up a position to snipe a base, for example dropping the main base while moving in to kill the fourth. Moves like this also give you time to set up expansions of your own. Keep drops alive - if you can get into his base and snipe a couple of drones that's great, but if you pick up as soon as you see speedlings you will have traded much more effectively. If you are really careful with your drops you'll be able to find new holes in his drop defence and keep them out on the map for moments when you know his army is extremely out of position. This will also help with picking off them new bases. Often you can even keep a drop in the back of where his new base will be, a quick stim will kill it or force a cancel if you react fast enough to spotting it. Later in the game using nukes is a good way to deny the extra bases as well, however this might be much later in the game than what you are referring to. I hope this helps a bit, let me know if I missed the point of your question/if you have any queries about what I've said. Can you give a BO for Hellion+Banshee? I guess my biggest problem is passivity (no creep reduction, only drop harass, too predictable) and the feeling insecure about my own defense. I started walling off natural and then third, but since it´s something new, it makes everything else go less smooth. I´m too late on my third, because I think I cannot defend it. Basically I don´t really know how much army is enough to push, especially early in the game. I wait for med-vacs which are kinda late and then just use my army to secure my third. I need to overcome the feeling that zerg has everything, while I have nothing and earlier pressure. So do you think I should get routine in walling-off (depots+bunker e.g.) in order to move out, or is that not really necessary when you apply the correct pressure? Maps with an off third like Antiga and Daybreak seem especially uncomfortable to me, though dropping should be stronger there. Thinking of it, Antiga vs Zerg is kind of a mystery to me, considering that it´s supposed to be T favored. edit: checked out the MMA hellion+banshee. Looks like what I need, gonna try that
Sounds like you found what you needed - just as a bit of personal advice I would really stress the importance of keeping the Hellion Banshee alive - that is your map control, scouting and pressure. It means you can take your third base early because you know if an attack is going to come etc, as well as being able to continually deny the creep if you are careful with them.
Don't allow yourself to get too involved in the harassment of the Hellion Banshee though - it's just as important to be spending your money as it is to be denying creep.
Good luck!
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EPT
