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thanks for the responses guys! definitely helped clear up some things about scouting in the matchup. so around the 6:20 mark i will send in an cheap scout (scv/marine) to see if i can get the info i need about his saturation and tech, if that gets denied then i will use the scan since it wont effect my 10 minute push!
On July 13 2012 08:51 SC2John wrote:
The key scout time is actually like 6:30-7:30. Spend a scan on his natural, check his saturation, unit count and composition, and *if gases 3 and 4 have been taken*. If protoss goes for fast colossus, he has to get gases up this early and skip out on a lot of units. This is your first indication.
When you go for your first push at 10:00, you're going to be looking for either colossus, fast 3rd, or templar tech. If there are colossus already up, start a second starport and immediately start viking production. If he pushes immediately when he gets 3 colossus (which he will), just queue up a drop in his main with 1-2 medivacs. This will force one of two responses: 1) he will retreat, the push is delayed, you have more time to get up vikings, 2) he will push and try to defend with warp-ins at home; as long as you're on top of your micro on your drop as well as at home, you should be able to hold off his substantially weaker push (by 1-2 warp-in rounds). In the rare event that he wants to force a base trade, just make sure you get your starports and barracks away safely and kill as much of his army as possible in a choke (AKA your ramp).
Of course, you know what to do in the other situations (go BEARSHIT CRAZY if he takes a 3rd, add ghost academy if templar tech). Just relax, play, and remember that drops are the hard counter to early colossus pushes.
Hope this helps!
i encountered the same type of colossi aggression yesterday in some games and the drop tip really helped out! it distracted him just long enough for me to get some needed vikings out to defend his push. thanks again! 
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during my ladder games i always have an intention of going into a macro game seeing as thats all i know how to do so far. so i was wondering what some good all-ins were for each race and what exactly an all-in is? thank you!
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On July 13 2012 08:22 Chooski wrote:
when is it a good time to scan for colossus tech? sometimes when i go for my 10 minute push, i arrive at the protoss base and see they have about 2 colossi and im forced to retreat or be melted by them. i throw down another startport and start viking production but sometimes i just cant get enough in time to handle the incoming push and warp in followup. i dont want to blindly add another starport if its not needed, or should i?
scanning around the 6:30 mark is always good no matter what. but i scan at 7:30 also. it takes 75 to build a colossus so that puts 2 out around 10 mins. and 7:30 they oughta have all the necessary tech out.
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On July 13 2012 04:18 Sorkoas wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 04:12 monkybone wrote:On July 13 2012 03:44 Kamelixs wrote:
What's the most optimized mech opener for TvT, and what should be my main goals in the game?
edit:
Or rather; what is the "best" and most standard to do theese days 1 rax expand into 1-1-1 with fast tanks and just enough marines to defend what you see coming. Consider getting a fast reactor on your rax. I don't think this is a safe build. You will usually take a lot of damage or even die to 1/1/1 allins, reactor hellions, reapers or any drop play. What you might be able to defend is just cloak banshee openings. My standard build right now is 12 rax, 15 orbital, 16 CC, 16 gas, 16 depot. Sacrifice some marine production to afford all that as well as geting a reactor after you have started the factory, which you equip with that reactor for hellions. Followed up by another gas and starport for a raven or viking.
Thanks!
But I do have another question. What should I follow up this with exactly? is it adding refinerys and another factory -> getting tanks + siege mode. Or is it something else?
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On July 14 2012 05:38 Chooski wrote:
during my ladder games i always have an intention of going into a macro game seeing as thats all i know how to do so far. so i was wondering what some good all-ins were for each race and what exactly an all-in is? thank you!
2rax tvz
5rax reaper tvt works like a charm against 1rax fe
5rax reaper can work tvp aswell but its tough to pull off sometimes.
there are loads of allins just look through liquipedia, I think Allins are also listed there.
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On July 14 2012 00:46 dynwar7 wrote:
I google a few times bu only came up with very few results. Im trying to find MKP's bio style in TvT. All I know is that he goes for 1 Rax FE into 4 more Rax, then what?
I hope someone can help me with this and maybe have replays of MKP doing it.
Thank you.
Can anybody help me with this?
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On July 14 2012 05:38 Chooski wrote:
during my ladder games i always have an intention of going into a macro game seeing as thats all i know how to do so far. so i was wondering what some good all-ins were for each race and what exactly an all-in is? thank you!
2 port banshees followed by marines+scvs allin (3 rax, works all matchups).
Reapers+hellions+medivacs TvT, from 2 rax (drop first medivac with 3-4 hellions, with speed reaper support).
1 rax proxy marauders with 1 rax reactor marines from main. Followed up by 1/1/1 all-in. (TvP)
The normal 1/1/1 in TvT/TvP (or even 2/1/1 with stim for your marines).
3 rax 12 marines @ 4:30 (BO at Liquipedia), works all matchups.
Or mass up any unit comp (MMM/Tanks+MM) on 1-2 bases and bring all SCVs. Usually most effective vs P.
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What am I supposed to do against a mech terran?
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On July 14 2012 20:09 OneBaseKing wrote:
What am I supposed to do against a mech terran?
Playing Bio: Outmanouver him and take more expansions, drop, poke, kill as much as you can and prevent exansions.
Playing Mech: Be more greedy, get better positions.
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Does nobody have replays of MKP doing 1 rax fe into 5 rax in TvT? I absolutely would love to see this, the only game I have of him doing this is vs bomber, but it was not a proer one since he was greedy, getting 2 really early CC.
I heard from someone that there are 2 replays of MKP doing this. Please, if you have the other replay, do let me know, or if you know of this MKP bio style 5 rax please let me know also.
Thank you TL.
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How much do you benefit from being able to get away with a CC first in TvZ? It feels like it should be the standard by now in the matchup but I so rarely see people doing it so I feel in doubt somehow.
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In TvP around the time you scout your opponent going templar tech do you switch into pure ghost production? Or do you mix in some marauders in? For example if i have 5 rax, 2 reactored and 3 techlabs. how many tech lab'd rax should be pumping ghost and how many marauders?
On another note how many medivacs is enough? is there a good number i should always stop at and just begin viking production to prepare for a tech switch( assuming he goes templar tech first) Or do i HAVE to wait until i see him making the switch?
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On July 15 2012 02:48 ff7legend wrote:
In TvP around the time you scout your opponent going templar tech do you switch into pure ghost production? Or do you mix in some marauders in? For example if i have 5 rax, 2 reactored and 3 techlabs. how many tech lab'd rax should be pumping ghost and how many marauders?
On another note how many medivacs is enough? is there a good number i should always stop at and just begin viking production to prepare for a tech switch( assuming he goes templar tech first) Or do i HAVE to wait until i see him making the switch?
I usually make a round or two of ghosts to get my count up and then switch back to marauders. imo 6-8 ghosts is more than enough, especially if you time it out to get the energy upgrade on the first round of them. Just make sure to keep them alive and remake them to keep that count up as needed.
EDIT: its also situational, if I see that he's just starting the archives I'll keep making some marauders, but if he's got them out already then I usually slam out as many as I can ASAP.
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If you're on 2 bases you don't need more than 3-4 ghosts to take a midgame fight. When at 3 bases you can start add more and in late game when you have 3-3 upgrades and cloak you start changing ghosts for marauders completely. Most top terrans aim for a medivac/marine/ghost composition with viking support if needed. I think most peoplpe agree on that you shouldn't have more than ~12 medivacs in a maxed out army.
The key is to avoid AoE damage completely with good ghost/viking micro. If you have too many marauders it's hard to take a fight vs a maxed toss with all tech out and you're forced to rely on drops.
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On July 14 2012 05:38 Chooski wrote:
during my ladder games i always have an intention of going into a macro game seeing as thats all i know how to do so far. so i was wondering what some good all-ins were for each race and what exactly an all-in is? thank you!
TvT
reaperhellion medic into cloakshee
gas first double reactor 1-1-1 marine hellion 2 medic drop
gas first cloak into marine tank banshee
TvZ marine hellion marauder with SCV pull with stim cs +1
TvP 1 rax FE into some banshee -> bio all in.
1-1-1 still works for me.
An all in is an attack that if it doesn't do sufficient damage you will lose the game if it plays out normally, without some freak come back.
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United States4883 Posts
On July 15 2012 00:55 Sorkoas wrote:
How much do you benefit from being able to get away with a CC first in TvZ? It feels like it should be the standard by now in the matchup but I so rarely see people doing it so I feel in doubt somehow.
The problem with CC first is that you are kind of forced into making 2 rax immediately after to survive against early zergling attacks. Making these 2 rax limits your ability to transition into something like hellion/banshee or fast tanks. That being said, it also enables you to do cool things like mass BFH/marine or hellion/marauder "2-2-2" really effectively.
In essence, it's not that it's really more or less beneficial for you, but takes you down a different tech path.
Also, I try to avoid CC first in the off-chance that something stupid like a 6-pool or a drone rush will occur. It's much safer to always go for a 1rax expand, especially if you're playing in single-elimination tournaments. It's worth practicing CC first on ladder if you want a strong macro build with a different twist on it though!
Hope this helps!
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I was up against a protoss player who was one basing (no expansion by 8 minutes!). My initial SCV scout saw that he was saving loads of chrono-boost so I assumed it was a 4-gate. I put up two bunkers and continued to macro up when I lost to a DT attack. Here is the replay for anyone who's interested:
http://drop.sc/222261
If a protoss is on one base for such a long time...
Should I have burned a scan and if so when?
When should a 4 gate have hit, and if that time passes should I have blindly put up a turret?
Against a 1 base protoss should you just put up a turret anyway to be safe?
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On July 15 2012 19:42 monkybone wrote:
CC first is a huge economy boost. A HUGE one. I will check it later today. But it dies to any earlier pool than 14, and you're going to have a really hard time to defending a fast zealot.
I like to send an earlier scout when I CC first, and make sure there's no pool half done when I drop the CC.
If there is a pool, or if Toss chronos the gateway I'm staring at, I've already saved up for the CC, so I drop it in the main, and simply cut at SCV or two depending on how aggressive he's being. I use the money to wall off of course, and/or get a second barracks. It doesn't matter that you're dropping a tiny bit of economy because you're already far ahead of an early Pool or aggressive zealot play.
Then you just build up a few marines, push to the bottom of your ramp, and bunker/expand as normal.
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EPT
