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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On July 16 2012 05:54 Bwall wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 04:38 U_G_L_Y wrote:
This is an honest question, I am not whining, I am just trying to understand why everyone says Mech is bad vs Zerg:
I feel like I am misunderstanding TvZ fundamentally. Pure bio works well vs Protoss because it does more DPS than gateway units and stimmed marines are faster. You can drop Protoss and abuse cliffs; in a straight up fight, marines beat the protoss mobile units (blink stalkers.)
Zerglings respond to drops much more quickly than zealots and stalkers do and beat marines cost for cost unless you clump them. (Which you never ever want to do in TvZ for obvious reasons.)
So how does playing the same bio strategy vs both races make sense, mathematically? What am I missing? What you say about drops isn't entirely true. Warp-ins are really good versus drops. Also, just thinking about the maths of damage and stuff can be very far from the truth, and the map layout plays a huge role in what compositions work. In big numbers, marines beat zerglings, period. If there's a choke, marines rape zerglings.
Also, Marines are just enormously good units, putting out solid DPS against anything the zerg player can make. His chief counters are the baneling and the infestor, both of which struggle against tanks. For this reason, the marine/tank/medivac is the standard TvZ midgame. Marines are just THAT good.
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Anyone have tips for late game macro, and ideally when you should get 3/3 upgrades for bio?
My macro just slips pass the 10 minute mark and minerals float to about 1000. Any tips for mid-late game muling? I don't think I should be saving this much energy on scans....
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United States4883 Posts
On July 16 2012 11:30 serialcheater wrote:
Anyone have tips for late game macro, and ideally when you should get 3/3 upgrades for bio?
My macro just slips pass the 10 minute mark and minerals float to about 1000. Any tips for mid-late game muling? I don't think I should be saving this much energy on scans....
A general tip for MULES going into the mid- to late-game is to keep muling at 1-2 at a time with 3+ orbitals. If you're ever dealt economic damage or lose an army, go ahead and dump a few MULES into catching back up in economy. It's nice to have a hidden MULE dump every once in a while (high ground expos with destructible rocks on Shakuras, for example) so that you can do these kinds of things...otherwise, just aim for a base that's not vulnerable at that particular time. If you use MULES too often, you'll end up with the terran "hyper-economy" where you can't spend all your money unless you make like 15 more raxes. When you feel like you have a healthy orbital count and you feel like you can replace SCVs with MULES, start sacing SCVs one base at a time, keeping about 5-6 MULES running at all times.
If you're going for bio or marine/tank, I would suggest literally going straight through upgrades, never stopping. In TvP, I understand this a little harder given that you need to do fairly extreme gas-heavy tech switches in the mid-game (ghosts/vikings). Still, for the most part, try to keep your upgrades ALWAYS running once they're up.
As for other random macro tips: try to remember to spam production keys occasionally during battles so you remember to keep up with production, check for saturation/minerals left every minute or so, and scan fairly often after 16:00.
Hope this helps!
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Guys, in TvT, what time does banshee normally come? im talking about banshee opener.
Im just wondering, is it ok to get simpaack first? I know getting CS is good vs banshee so they take 3 shots. is stim first compulsory?
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On July 17 2012 00:36 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 23:58 dynwar7 wrote:
Guys, in TvT, what time does banshee normally come? im talking about banshee opener.
Im just wondering, is it ok to get simpaack first? I know getting CS is good vs banshee so they take 3 shots. is stim first compulsory? Banshees come around 7 minutes, depends on map size, route, and build order. Why do you ask, just check the time it comes in a replay, or do it yourself some time. Stim won't be ready until then, and is pretty much inferior to CS 1st in TvT. Only exception is to deny a fast drop, which makes stim basically the counter.
So basically in TvT getting stim first is a no no because of banshees that can 2 shot marines?
I think even going CS first, CS will not finish when the first banshee comes, isn't that right? IIRC banshees come at around 7 minutes, and CS finishes at maybe 8 minute or something?
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On July 17 2012 00:40 dynwar7 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 00:36 monkybone wrote:On July 16 2012 23:58 dynwar7 wrote:
Guys, in TvT, what time does banshee normally come? im talking about banshee opener.
Im just wondering, is it ok to get simpaack first? I know getting CS is good vs banshee so they take 3 shots. is stim first compulsory? Banshees come around 7 minutes, depends on map size, route, and build order. Why do you ask, just check the time it comes in a replay, or do it yourself some time. Stim won't be ready until then, and is pretty much inferior to CS 1st in TvT. Only exception is to deny a fast drop, which makes stim basically the counter. So basically in TvT getting stim first is a no no because of banshees that can 2 shot marines? I think even going CS first, CS will not finish when the first banshee comes, isn't that right? IIRC banshees come at around 7 minutes, and CS finishes at maybe 8 minute or something?
Well it depends when you start it. CS does not have a long research time at all so starting it at 5:45 should be fine I think.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On July 17 2012 00:43 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 00:40 dynwar7 wrote:On July 17 2012 00:36 monkybone wrote:On July 16 2012 23:58 dynwar7 wrote:
Guys, in TvT, what time does banshee normally come? im talking about banshee opener.
Im just wondering, is it ok to get simpaack first? I know getting CS is good vs banshee so they take 3 shots. is stim first compulsory? Banshees come around 7 minutes, depends on map size, route, and build order. Why do you ask, just check the time it comes in a replay, or do it yourself some time. Stim won't be ready until then, and is pretty much inferior to CS 1st in TvT. Only exception is to deny a fast drop, which makes stim basically the counter. So basically in TvT getting stim first is a no no because of banshees that can 2 shot marines? I think even going CS first, CS will not finish when the first banshee comes, isn't that right? IIRC banshees come at around 7 minutes, and CS finishes at maybe 8 minute or something? Well it depends when you start it. CS does not have a long research time at all so starting it at 5:45 should be fine I think.
Furthermore, and this is a little-known fact, CS Marines actually beat Stim Marines in a straight-up fight. A Stim Marine shoots faster, but has 35 hp to a CS Marine's 55 hp-- which means the CS marine can take FOUR more hits before dying. Although Stim Marines can disengage easily, in a straight-up fight of even numbers, the CS marines brutally crap on them. This, coupled with the increased effectiveness of CS marines against Banshees, Hellions, Reapers etc, means that outside of certain specific all-ins, in TvT you get CS first.
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United States4883 Posts
On July 17 2012 00:40 dynwar7 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 00:36 monkybone wrote:On July 16 2012 23:58 dynwar7 wrote:
Guys, in TvT, what time does banshee normally come? im talking about banshee opener.
Im just wondering, is it ok to get simpaack first? I know getting CS is good vs banshee so they take 3 shots. is stim first compulsory? Banshees come around 7 minutes, depends on map size, route, and build order. Why do you ask, just check the time it comes in a replay, or do it yourself some time. Stim won't be ready until then, and is pretty much inferior to CS 1st in TvT. Only exception is to deny a fast drop, which makes stim basically the counter. So basically in TvT getting stim first is a no no because of banshees that can 2 shot marines? I think even going CS first, CS will not finish when the first banshee comes, isn't that right? IIRC banshees come at around 7 minutes, and CS finishes at maybe 8 minute or something?
I would say stim first is fine as long as you scout a fast expo and you are going for a 1-base play. But in any kind of macro situation, like going 1rax expand, you should pretty much always get CS first to be safe against banshees, early tank pushes, hellion elevator play, etc.
Banshees arrive at your base at 7:00 (unless they've been proxied). Pretty much any barracks-based openings, including the Thorzain build, will get CS out by 5:30-6:30 and make you much safer against banshee play as well as 6:30 hellion/marine elevator and 6:30 reaper/hellion all-in.
EDIT: Edited some of the timings
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United States4883 Posts
On July 17 2012 01:19 monkybone wrote:
Banshee builds are often with gas 1st, making 7 minutes a more accurate timing. Don't need to be proxied.
You're right. For some reason, I always get DT/banshee timings mixed up. Either way, combat shield is out like a minute before banshees in most builds.
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I need some good All in builds vs Z. Just some strong timings as I am growing increasingly frustrated with late game TvZ. I have a terrible win rate vs zerg this season since my style is less effective. Replays of pros or master league or just well executed all ins please.
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I've just watched GSL season 2 ro8 game 1 IMMVP vs Naniwa: Why Mvp added around 4 - 5 sieged tanks - less medivac ?
Thanks
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On July 17 2012 04:04 foxj wrote:
I've just watched GSL season 2 ro8 game 1 IMMVP vs Naniwa: Why Mvp added around 4 - 5 sieged tanks - less medivac ?
Thanks
In the very early game against Protoss, Siege Tanks can kill gateway units that don't have Charge or Blink. Mvp liked to use a small number of early game tanks to make a very strong early game army-- but at the cost of less medivacs. A calculated risk.
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Sorry if this is a stupid question - I tried searching for the answer but all I found were members freaking out and telling the question asker to use search (which, as you can see, gets me in a bit of a pickle).
I'm trying to use the filer/llama guide of focusing on macro only , as I'm a silver player. Is there a guide somewhere that tells you how many production buildings you can support of "x" # of bases? I'd specifically be looking for 2 bases as I never take a 3rd, as per the guide I'm following.
As that question is complicated as it changes with what you're producing, does someone have the answer if all you're producing is marines of of rax? Is there an answer if you're producing marines/mauraders (50/50)?
Basically I'm looking for a guide/resource that may or may not exist.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
What you're probably looking for is this:
http://sc2calc.org/unit_production/terran.php
Set your number of bases and number of production facilities and tinker with this for a bit and you'll be able to figure out what you can support.
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hi guys. my name is pais and i am very lost in tvz. im in silver and got matched against a platinum zerg, 2 in a row. first one base roach all inned me which i should have scouted. But the second one let me get what army i wanted to move out with and just killed me. i move out to pressure his third and i just die. Can anyone look at the replay please. i just fell apart near the end. ANY tips would be helpful.
Thanks to all my terran brothers in advance.
http://drop.sc/223091
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United States4883 Posts
On July 17 2012 07:12 caznitch wrote:
Sorry if this is a stupid question - I tried searching for the answer but all I found were members freaking out and telling the question asker to use search (which, as you can see, gets me in a bit of a pickle).
I'm trying to use the filer/llama guide of focusing on macro only , as I'm a silver player. Is there a guide somewhere that tells you how many production buildings you can support of "x" # of bases? I'd specifically be looking for 2 bases as I never take a 3rd, as per the guide I'm following.
As that question is complicated as it changes with what you're producing, does someone have the answer if all you're producing is marines of of rax? Is there an answer if you're producing marines/mauraders (50/50)?
Basically I'm looking for a guide/resource that may or may not exist.
In addition to the link above, I'll just give you some general knowledge:
On 1 base, the maximum you can support is 5 naked rax or a 1-1-1 configuration.
5 rax with add-ons + medivacs is really the ABSOLUTE maximum you can do for MMM on 2 fully saturated bases. Anything less than that will be subject to your worker count, MULE timings, production out of rax (for instance, ghosts are MUCH more expensive than marauders), or whether or not you're getting upgrades. Tanks and medivacs are interchangeable here, but you can't get both and still be producing out of rax (mostly gas restraints).
On 3 bases, you can support 5 rax + medivacs + 2-3 techlab factories. If you're still getting upgrades, this might be a little less, but generally you can support nonstop macro of MMM + tanks/thors.
The maximum you can produce mech on 2 bases is 3 techlab + 1 reactor. Even that is pushing it. Generally you'll only see 2 techlab factories in favor of an earlier 3rd. On 3 bases, you can do something like 4 techlab + 2 reactor + occasional medivacs.
Hope this helps! If there's anything I missed, let me know!
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EPT
