Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions.
On July 13 2012 03:44 Kamelixs wrote: What's the most optimized mech opener for TvT, and what should be my main goals in the game?
edit: Or rather; what is the "best" and most standard to do theese days
1 rax expand into 1-1-1 with fast tanks and just enough marines to defend what you see coming. Consider getting a fast reactor on your rax.
I don't think this is a safe build. You will usually take a lot of damage or even die to 1/1/1 allins, reactor hellions, reapers or any drop play. What you might be able to defend is just cloak banshee openings.
My standard build right now is 12 rax, 15 orbital, 16 CC, 16 gas, 16 depot. Sacrifice some marine production to afford all that as well as geting a reactor after you have started the factory, which you equip with that reactor for hellions. Followed up by another gas and starport for a raven or viking.
Last night's Day[9] Daily was really good for TvT openings and something I recommend to most players who are not at mid/high master level or better. It gives good advice on the strengths of different openings and what info to pick up on with your initial scouting units.
Skip to 7 mins to see the openings and Day9's analysis of them,.
At the moment the only matchup I am really struggling with is TvZ. I feel its because I am not doing anything coincidentally in the matchup, because everything I am trying is not coincidentally working. I play mech in all matchups and am a mid masters player doing so, however with recent "balance" changes I havn't been able to find a build to make mech work in TvZ. My problem is mech before relyed heavily on hellions from early game to end and now with hellions less useful its hard to make the back bone of mech work. I've tried opening banshees until tanks, and elevator play, as well as fast expanding. Nothing works Banshees are a great defensive unit, however are too expensive to be used as such (might as well go tanks if so.) Elevator play similar to banshees with cloak have to do damage to pay for their selfs or I am behind. Fast expanding into mech is near impossible to do while holding off all in because of how the transition into mech (anti timing window) typically happens around the timing of a all in (timing attack doubled because of anti timing widnow.)
I don't have any replays at the moment to upload but mostly am looking for suggestions of what builds should make mech work in TvZ.
On July 13 2012 04:23 RammliedcVo wrote: At the moment the only matchup I am really struggling with is TvZ. I feel its because I am not doing anything coincidentally in the matchup, because everything I am trying is not coincidentally working. I play mech in all matchups and am a mid masters player doing so, however with recent "balance" changes I havn't been able to find a build to make mech work in TvZ. My problem is mech before relyed heavily on hellions from early game to end and now with hellions less useful its hard to make the back bone of mech work. I've tried opening banshees until tanks, and elevator play, as well as fast expanding. Nothing works Banshees are a great defensive unit, however are too expensive to be used as such (might as well go tanks if so.) Elevator play similar to banshees with cloak have to do damage to pay for their selfs or I am behind. Fast expanding into mech is near impossible to do while holding off all in because of how the transition into mech (anti timing window) typically happens around the timing of a all in (timing attack doubled because of anti timing widnow.)
I don't have any replays at the moment to upload but mostly am looking for suggestions of what builds should make mech work in TvZ.
I'm at loss and I don't understand how to approach the TvZ matchup. People keep saying that Ultralisks are bad, but I struggle to win a single battle vs Ultralisk compositions. Here are 5 replays of me vs zergs.
when is it a good time to scan for colossus tech? sometimes when i go for my 10 minute push, i arrive at the protoss base and see they have about 2 colossi and im forced to retreat or be melted by them. i throw down another startport and start viking production but sometimes i just cant get enough in time to handle the incoming push and warp in followup. i dont want to blindly add another starport if its not needed, or should i?
On July 13 2012 06:52 FabulousTerran wrote: I'm at loss and I don't understand how to approach the TvZ matchup. People keep saying that Ultralisks are bad, but I struggle to win a single battle vs Ultralisk compositions. Here are 5 replays of me vs zergs.
Daybreak game vs hulkoff: Your hellion/banshee use was very poor. If you're going to open that way you should focus on using them better. No scv transfer to 3rd makes it useless. Slow ups. Idle port delayed your medics which delayed any potential aggression which gave zerg more time to do whatever. You then attack anyway without medics or siege: a generous donation to the zerg kill fund. When he attacks with ultra you have essentially pure marine which you don't control well. You maxed on way too many scvs so in addition to having a sizeable drop idling he simply had a larger total army made up of a better composition.
On July 13 2012 04:10 monkybone wrote: What I meant was that I keep my 3 raxes active. I go 5 rax TvP though nowadays. It's really safe, and can do some early damage.
Dude, I totally agree! 5rax FTW! None of this 3rax standard bullshit!
What do I do in TvZ lategame? All the TvZ's I play I get to the lategame with the zerg adding on a bunch of ultras and then he just kills me, I just cannot stop the ultras. I almost never have addons on my barracks so that i can transition into marauders if he goes ultras but it doesn't seem to be helping. Any advice?
The best success I've had with dealing with ultras/blords is switching tank production to thor production when you see hive go up. Generally you're doing MMM or marine/tank pushes or something in between up to ~15:00. Around 16:00 is the standard time for hive to go up; spend a scan or two if you can afford it, just keep an eye on when the hive starts morphing. When it does, switch your 2-3 factories from producing tanks to thors. Thors do well against both ultras AND blords, so they naturally make sense to build at that point.
If you're going mech, just skew towards thor/hellion/viking when you see hive go down.
At this point, as long as you're microing correctly, you should be able to beat ultras unless you got way behind at some point.
On July 13 2012 08:22 Chooski wrote: when is it a good time to scan for colossus tech? sometimes when i go for my 10 minute push, i arrive at the protoss base and see they have about 2 colossi and im forced to retreat or be melted by them. i throw down another startport and start viking production but sometimes i just cant get enough in time to handle the incoming push and warp in followup. i dont want to blindly add another starport if its not needed, or should i?
The key scout time is actually like 6:30-7:30. Spend a scan on his natural, check his saturation, unit count and composition, and *if gases 3 and 4 have been taken*. If protoss goes for fast colossus, he has to get gases up this early and skip out on a lot of units. This is your first indication.
When you go for your first push at 10:00, you're going to be looking for either colossus, fast 3rd, or templar tech. If there are colossus already up, start a second starport and immediately start viking production. If he pushes immediately when he gets 3 colossus (which he will), just queue up a drop in his main with 1-2 medivacs. This will force one of two responses: 1) he will retreat, the push is delayed, you have more time to get up vikings, 2) he will push and try to defend with warp-ins at home; as long as you're on top of your micro on your drop as well as at home, you should be able to hold off his substantially weaker push (by 1-2 warp-in rounds). In the rare event that he wants to force a base trade, just make sure you get your starports and barracks away safely and kill as much of his army as possible in a choke (AKA your ramp).
Of course, you know what to do in the other situations (go BEARSHIT CRAZY if he takes a 3rd, add ghost academy if templar tech). Just relax, play, and remember that drops are the hard counter to early colossus pushes.
On July 13 2012 03:32 Sorkoas wrote: I've been struggling a while with holding 2 base Colossus based all-ins from Protoss. Lately however I've been able to get away with just massing up a lot of bio and kill him while he's moving out and can't get a good position with his army. A map it doesn't work very well at is Cloud Kingdom. What I basically wonder is if I should either change my style and attack earlier, or just squeeze out a better unit composition and take the fight at my base.
My opening is usually as follow:
16 CC 17 depot 19 rax * 2 21 gas bunker in front of expansion.
I follow it up with a combat shield or naked marine poke around 8-9 to pick off some sentries and just get an idea of what my opponent is doing. At this point I have added another 2 rax for 5 in total and started my factory as well as all upgrades from tech labs and +1 attack. My goal is to overwhelm the protoss with mass bio and my first 4 medivacs around 12-13 min, while I'm taking my 3rd base.
The colossus push itself comes around 10:30-11:30, when I have just started my first set of medivacs. This is as I already said no issue on big maps because I can take map control and not let the Protoss player get in a good position with his army all together.
Should I aim for an earlier and stronger timing attack or do you guys have any other ideas to delay his push so I can get vikings out and move to my 3rd base which is easier to defend? It seems this style is standard for most P on CK atm.
I talked about this just one post above ^.
However, if you want some ideas, I suggest getting medivacs perhaps a little earlier and queuing them up for a drop in the main as the push is moving out. If you hit the protoss while their army is in midmap, they will either turn around or continue to push, warping in at home. This either delays or significantly weakens the push.
I've had a lot of success with this little tactic. Just make sure you don't fly into cannons or something stupid, you know, basics.
I honestly do not see the midgame advantage everyone says Terran has. After playing Zerg on ladder and getting promoted to Diamond with it, I am convinced Terran has no advantage at any stage in the game.
On July 13 2012 13:22 vizi wrote: What's a solid, first build to begin practicing for every possible matchup? Thinking of switching races and I don't know much.
Focus on solid macro builds based off of 1rax expand. You can open with 1rax expand safely in all matchups, get 3-5 barracks and tech to medivacs/tanks with infantry upgrades. All of the matchups require a little different variations, of course, but the core structure remains about the same.
1rax expand + 3-5rax total + stim/CS + ebay + tanks OR medivacs From here, take a 3rd and start the descent into the less-than-exact mid- to late-game.
Master that 1rax gasless expand! It's your friend!!
On July 13 2012 08:22 Chooski wrote: when is it a good time to scan for colossus tech? sometimes when i go for my 10 minute push, i arrive at the protoss base and see they have about 2 colossi and im forced to retreat or be melted by them. i throw down another startport and start viking production but sometimes i just cant get enough in time to handle the incoming push and warp in followup. i dont want to blindly add another starport if its not needed, or should i?
The key scout time is actually like 6:30-7:30. Spend a scan on his natural, check his saturation, unit count and composition, and *if gases 3 and 4 have been taken*. If protoss goes for fast colossus, he has to get gases up this early and skip out on a lot of units. This is your first indication.
I don't like the idea of wasting scans since a good player will hide both units and tech. I'd try poke with SCVs or marines instead. During the first 10 mins our mules are essential to be able to keep up with the production of Z and P. You delay all timings for each mule that becomes a scan.
On July 13 2012 03:32 Sorkoas wrote: I've been struggling a while with holding 2 base Colossus based all-ins from Protoss. Lately however I've been able to get away with just massing up a lot of bio and kill him while he's moving out and can't get a good position with his army. A map it doesn't work very well at is Cloud Kingdom. What I basically wonder is if I should either change my style and attack earlier, or just squeeze out a better unit composition and take the fight at my base.
My opening is usually as follow:
16 CC 17 depot 19 rax * 2 21 gas bunker in front of expansion.
I follow it up with a combat shield or naked marine poke around 8-9 to pick off some sentries and just get an idea of what my opponent is doing. At this point I have added another 2 rax for 5 in total and started my factory as well as all upgrades from tech labs and +1 attack. My goal is to overwhelm the protoss with mass bio and my first 4 medivacs around 12-13 min, while I'm taking my 3rd base.
The colossus push itself comes around 10:30-11:30, when I have just started my first set of medivacs. This is as I already said no issue on big maps because I can take map control and not let the Protoss player get in a good position with his army all together.
Should I aim for an earlier and stronger timing attack or do you guys have any other ideas to delay his push so I can get vikings out and move to my 3rd base which is easier to defend? It seems this style is standard for most P on CK atm.
I talked about this just one post above ^.
However, if you want some ideas, I suggest getting medivacs perhaps a little earlier and queuing them up for a drop in the main as the push is moving out. If you hit the protoss while their army is in midmap, they will either turn around or continue to push, warping in at home. This either delays or significantly weakens the push.
I've had a lot of success with this little tactic. Just make sure you don't fly into cannons or something stupid, you know, basics.
I'm gonna try work with some builds that goes to faster medivacs, but it will delay my addons as well as upgrades so I think I'm gonna have to be greedy and take a faster 3rd CC to make up for it.
Another idea is to simply go a mech opener with triple CCs and double ebay. I can't see how tanks wouldn't be able to hold off a 2 base Colo timing on Cloud Kingdom while you poke/harass with banshees.
On July 12 2012 14:20 XenOsky- wrote: what is the best way to approach the 1 base Hellion Marine drop when going 1 rax f exp?
1 rax FE.
Bunker with 4 rines at Nat. Tech to Siege Tank, Get Eng Bay, 2 Missile Turrets at most obvious drop pathway into your base.
You won't have any medivacs but its definitely the way to defend your Main and Nat to any early drops.
If he insist on dropping after being shot by the turrents, its all too likely he'll lose his medivac and its easy to clean up.
If he spots the turrets and tries to drop around it, you should have your bunkers unloaded and be ready to move your scvs.
By the time anything gets done, you should have at least 2 tanks, which is plenty good against hellion rine drops.
You can't possibly have tanks out by the time it hits; and you can't possibly afford enough turrets to deter the drop either. 2 missile turrets are useless vs this kind of a drop. A bunker in main could potentially be useful (but probably isn't necessary).
Why not? He needs to build his starport + build Medivac, and you'll have a CC at your nat getting you better income.
I've had a game where my opponent, went straight for 4 hellion + 8 rines + 1 medivac (Starport without reactor). (Map Cloud Kingdom)
You'll have 4 rines (in nat bunker), one rax, one fact, (NO starport), 1 siege tank and plenty of time to throw an eng bay + 2 turrets. A second tank almost completed during the time it hits.
Your quote and post as a whole is messed up, but please stop building blind turrets if you don't know theres cloaked banshees out. It's a huge waste of minerals.
On July 13 2012 18:41 Sorkoas wrote: I don't like the idea of wasting scans since a good player will hide both units and tech. I'd try poke with SCVs or marines instead. During the first 10 mins our mules are essential to be able to keep up with the production of Z and P. You delay all timings for each mule that becomes a scan.
I agree with poking with SCVs or marines first, but 99% of the time, you're not going to be able to get that information for free. I like the idea down below of checking for proxies and things like that, but I still think it's important to check the natural at that timing.
In this particular case, a scan is perfectly warranted and has no effect on any of the standard BOs. For instance, if you go 1rax expand into 3rax with the 10:00 push, this scan pops up on your natural's orbital right at 6:20-6:30. Whether you scan or not, you can still get 2 additional rax + CC AND push with medivacs/+1/stim before the 10-minute period. Also, around 7:00 is about the point where your economy is finally equalized and you don't HAVE to spend every 50 energy on a MULE; most pros don't even use MULES after ~7:00 in this matchup unless it's a special circumstance or they have a lot of energy saved up.
I google a few times bu only came up with very few results. Im trying to find MKP's bio style in TvT. All I know is that he goes for 1 Rax FE into 4 more Rax, then what?
I hope someone can help me with this and maybe have replays of MKP doing it.
EPT
