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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
United States4883 Posts
On July 11 2012 06:43 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2012 05:01 SC2John wrote:On July 11 2012 04:30 iAmJeffReY wrote:
I never feel safe with it. I feel once they get wind of it, they can go into roach bane, or roach ling all ins and just roll the hell out of you, and because they're on 3 base, probably 4 hatch, they aren't really at all all in.
Just my opinion though. You never want to delay tech (ie siege, stim, bf, cs, +1/+1, medics, etc) against zerg, it just never works out well Just to point out: marines/marauders and well-placed bunkers will hold off any early bust. That being said, you match the zerg economy by delaying gas as well and getting an earlier 3rd. Then you just have to hold as your tech gets up. If you defend a bust until stim/CS is done or medivacs, you're golden. Yet, all the need is speed, and they can cover the map in creep, and take a 4th once they heed wind of your fast third. It's not a favorable situation. That aside, I still think a roach bane attack will hit too strong, and too early, even after a fast third gasless, that a 1 rax FE into 3rd OC won't be able to power the amount of units needed to hold a bust like that. Even if you do, zerg can tech and bust at the same time, or bust and drone behind it... You never really know for sure. If you have the macro for it, and ability to move on the map against an unharassed, full drone count before 10 min zerg, then by all means you are a better man than I.
Perhaps we're talking about different things here. I never meant that you go 3 OC BEFORE anything else. It's viable to go gasless against a gasless zerg and get a lot of marines up early before 3rd CC. Even if you delay the gases a LITTLE (like ~30 food), you can get a 3rd CC and be perfectly safe against all zerg busts. I delay gases until 7:00 EVERY game the zerg delays their gas until after 4:00, and I've seriously NEVER had a problem with a bust.
And holding busts is ALL about tech. Terran can do what zerg CAN'T, which is constantly make workers and tech while defending. That being said, all you have to do is defend and whether or not they drone or tech behind it, you should be matched with it as long as you didn't lose too much.
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Question:
When is it better to focus fire medivacs instead of firing marines in TvT?
My scenario is some sort of FE (either 15 cc or 1 rax FE) vs. tank pushes supported by medivacs. My spread has gotten a lot better so usually the damage splash isn't a problem, but the supporting marine DPS (backed by tanks in good positions forcing me to engage), healed by 1/2 medivacs, is usually too much even when I focus fire individual marines. Even when I have 1.5 - 2.5 times the number of marines a marine/tank/medivac force in a good position will win the fight.
Just playing around with either focus firing individual marines or the medivacs gives mixed results based the size of my opponent's and my own marine numbers.
Anyone has any wisdom to share?
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i searching for two VOD's of Dragon and forGG
the first VOD of Dragon is a really fast BC+Tank+Ghost Build in TvP out of a 1/1/1 into Expansion.
and the second is a VOD of forGG where he played on Cloud Kindom against a zerg and went really fast into BC and expands a lot with PF's.
Does anyone know about this styles? I would be glad if you can help me.
Thx
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On July 11 2012 19:58 saaaa wrote:
i searching for two VOD's of Dragon and forGG
the first VOD of Dragon is a really fast BC+Tank+Ghost Build in TvP out of a 1/1/1 into Expansion.
and the second is a VOD of forGG where he played on Cloud Kindom against a zerg and went really fast into BC and expands a lot with PF's.
Does anyone know about this styles? I would be glad if you can help me.
Thx
From what i've seen on Dragons streams is that he plays against people that are much weaker than him. Dragon plays pretty much at a pro's level, masters is nothing compared to that. While knowing this, pretty much any build works for him because he's just so good compared to his opponent.
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So I've asked this question a few times here. The answers so fat have been take a third really fast, or go 4-6 rax all in.
I've tried both of these, and neither seems to work. Any other options in beating a Nexus first?
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On July 11 2012 18:25 EngrishTeacher wrote:
Question:
When is it better to focus fire medivacs instead of firing marines in TvT?
My scenario is some sort of FE (either 15 cc or 1 rax FE) vs. tank pushes supported by medivacs. My spread has gotten a lot better so usually the damage splash isn't a problem, but the supporting marine DPS (backed by tanks in good positions forcing me to engage), healed by 1/2 medivacs, is usually too much even when I focus fire individual marines. Even when I have 1.5 - 2.5 times the number of marines a marine/tank/medivac force in a good position will win the fight.
Just playing around with either focus firing individual marines or the medivacs gives mixed results based the size of my opponent's and my own marine numbers.
Anyone has any wisdom to share?
In order to stop this 1base pushes you need to engage outside your base, with a couple of scvs to use as cannon fodder for the first tank shot (and only if you are good microing the engagement).
Heavy marine openings like thorzain demand good map control, and good micro against any tech push be it banshees or 111 siege pushes. Even if the trade doesnt look that good for you, youre on 2 bases pumping units non-stop and as for your oponent he just lost the core of his timing push along with most likely all of his army.
Protip: If you manage to have the 2 xelnagas you will always know when your enemy moves out.
If you engage right in the middle of the road while hes moving out even if you engage quite badly, but manage to take down the tank and a couple of units you will be ahead if he continues to push.
Qibla wrote:
So I've asked this question a few times here. The answers so fat have been take a third really fast, or go 4-6 rax all in.
I've tried both of these, and neither seems to work. Any other options in beating a Nexus first?
Maybe you didnt pushed at the timing you should, 2 rax or even bunker rush might work if you manage to pull it of correctly, the right answer though might lie in taking a fast third. Good army trade its key, and if you do want to punish a nexus first you should not try to go and win the game just with one push, you should make economic damage.
When a Protoss goes nexus first he gets exposed to early marine marauder pushes UNTIL he has 2 sentries, if you manage to take down the sentries early on you can continue to pressure, remember that he doesnt have warpgate early on, and your units are quite good with good micro. Take down his army first, and then go for probes or pylons(if you take down 1or 2 pylons you can keep the pressure on for a longer amount of time since he wont be able to reinforce and thus might just lose his expansion or the game if your push was good enough).
4 or 6 rax is not a good option, you dont want to compromise your economy in mid game, since it is your most valuable and only favored timing (medivac or ghost push). 2rax bunker rush into expo, or 2rax marine marauder push (w/concussive shells) are both good options since he wont have enough units to hold them in time.
In case of a 2rax marine marauder push, you should hit with your first marauder marines and a couple of scvs, target fire sentries first, then stalkers, move your marines if they get targeted by zealots and if viable build a bunker or 2.
Hope this helped you out.
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United States4883 Posts
On July 11 2012 20:42 Qibla wrote:
So I've asked this question a few times here. The answers so fat have been take a third really fast, or go 4-6 rax all in.
I've tried both of these, and neither seems to work. Any other options in beating a Nexus first?
Try teching faster. I know I've mentioned this, but if you go for 3 CCs off of 1 marine then proceed to tech to a 1-1-1 formation, you should be fine against any early gateway pressure. You can harass with cloaked banshees, use them for defense, you can get fast tanks and do a marine/tank push, etc.
Otherwise, just go like 2 rax and get REALLY fast CS/stim and medivacs, then add on like 4 rax and ramp up production, defending with 3-4 bunkers.
I like the first option better. 1-1-1 is the most powerful composition against pure gateway units + immortals. If the biggest problem you're facing is big gateway aggression, 1-1-1 naturally takes care of that. Otherwise, you can just contain with it, expand a lot, and get whatever composition you want up after that.
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On July 12 2012 03:30 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 01:29 SC2John wrote:On July 11 2012 20:42 Qibla wrote:
So I've asked this question a few times here. The answers so fat have been take a third really fast, or go 4-6 rax all in.
I've tried both of these, and neither seems to work. Any other options in beating a Nexus first? Try teching faster. I know I've mentioned this, but if you go for 3 CCs off of 1 marine then proceed to tech to a 1-1-1 formation, you should be fine against any early gateway pressure. You can harass with cloaked banshees, use them for defense, you can get fast tanks and do a marine/tank push, etc. Otherwise, just go like 2 rax and get REALLY fast CS/stim and medivacs, then add on like 4 rax and ramp up production, defending with 3-4 bunkers. I like the first option better. 1-1-1 is the most powerful composition against pure gateway units + immortals. If the biggest problem you're facing is big gateway aggression, 1-1-1 naturally takes care of that. Otherwise, you can just contain with it, expand a lot, and get whatever composition you want up after that. You die to a 7 gate for sure... It hits my 1 rax expand into 3 rax so hard that I don't usually have a chance. And I don't skimp on units.
Scout it out, and just heavily bunker, like... 3-4 bunkers and spread them out so FFs don't auto negate bunkers. Keep a marine or scv out front to spot that proxy pylon sneaky probe placing his pussy powered pylons (alliteration for fun lol) and that's the cue to pull scvs from the natural and surround your bunkers with repair ready.
Don't deviate from stim or medics. You need both to counter 7 gate builds, and push out and just crush their lack of upgrade-gateway units.
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What's the best way to deal with doom drops in TvT including siege tanks and tons of bio? They're apperently very normal at my level, and I feel like it only forces a base race scenario where I have to lift my buildings and I send most of my army towards his base. I often win theese, but it's still frustrating as fuck. There has to be some other way to go about this?
Open to any suggestions ( :
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On July 12 2012 06:55 siii wrote:
What's the best way to deal with doom drops in TvT including siege tanks and tons of bio? They're apperently very normal at my level, and I feel like it only forces a base race scenario where I have to lift my buildings and I send most of my army towards his base. I often win theese, but it's still frustrating as fuck. There has to be some other way to go about this?
Open to any suggestions ( :
Unfortunately, the best way to deal with doom drops is "don't let him doom drop you". Use turrets, Sensor Towers, Vikings, and map awareness to prevent him from just getting all up in your base. If he is able to set units down in your base and siege up, suddenly you can't cost-effectively clean up the doom drop. If you can intercept him and take down medivacs with your vikings, or kill his units before he sieges up or as he's unloading, you'll be fine.
Once he DOES successfully doom drop you, though, if you can't go in and kill him, but you might be able to kill him later out in the open, you sadly need to base trade.
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Plat terran:
How do I survive 4 gates? They're pretty much an auto win against me lately. When I'm in practice, my macro's pretty decent too, 50 scvs by 10 mins and high SQ. The build I'm using:
rax
orbital
CC
bunker
rax
rax
gas
gas
tech lab
reactor
factory
etc ----> bio
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On July 12 2012 06:55 siii wrote:
What's the best way to deal with doom drops in TvT including siege tanks and tons of bio? They're apperently very normal at my level, and I feel like it only forces a base race scenario where I have to lift my buildings and I send most of my army towards his base. I often win theese, but it's still frustrating as fuck. There has to be some other way to go about this?
Open to any suggestions ( :
Use siege tanks and building placement of your base to sim-city and zone the tanks and infantry out. Lift anything in immediate danger, and go about some sort of attack, or a full concave from both sides. It's hard to push into bases with marine tank doom drops if they have tanks in their base -- even after the fact of the doom drop landing -- to zone out your infantry from moving around.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On July 12 2012 07:11 Natespank wrote:
Plat terran:
How do I survive 4 gates? They're pretty much an auto win against me lately. When I'm in practice, my macro's pretty decent too, 50 scvs by 10 mins and high SQ. The build I'm using:
rax
orbital
CC
bunker
rax
rax
gas
gas
tech lab
reactor
factory
etc ----> bio
If we're talking about the 1 base 4gate allin, you need to add a second, maybe even a third bunker, when you see him not expoing and having only 1 gas. Pull some scvs to repair BEFORE the fighting starts-- you have extra anyways.
If we're talking about 4 gateway pressure after an expo, what you're doing should hold just fine. You may need to start a second bunker, and you'll definitely need to pull a couple scvs to repair, but you shouldn't flat-out lose to it.
Personally, I don't get that reactor since I want constant marine production. It doesn't "catch up" until 2 minutes after you start the reactor.
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Hey guys im high diamond trying to get into masters. TvP and TvT are defintely holding me back. In TvP i always gasless expo and go for the 10:00 med push but i feel like its not cutting it for me. Are there any other builds that might give me more options? Same thing goes for TvT
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I have some problems against chargelot-templar-archon in TvP,i can't dodge storms-->bio dies-->gg
I use ghosts but i can't emp,stim,split and stutter step all at the same time.
So i was wondering if something like hellion-ghost would work and transision to viking-banshee if they
switch to Colossus.Could it work? Has anyone tried it?
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On July 12 2012 09:43 DifuntO wrote:
I have some problems against chargelot-templar-archon in TvP,i can't dodge storms-->bio dies-->gg
I use ghosts but i can't emp,stim,split and stutter step all at the same time.
So i was wondering if something like hellion-ghost would work and transision to viking-banshee if they
switch to Colossus.Could it work? Has anyone tried it?
Problem with that is building production facilities. Factories, barracks and starports and the required upgrades as well. Marines do well against chargelots. Hellions are faster and deal with zealots better, but unless you have SCVs you can't heal them so storm will still weaken them.
Viking banshee is a nice thought but high templars deal with them pretty effectively with storms and feedback.
I don't think basic terran micro is that hard. Stim, 1a, then select ghosts to emp during the battle. With enough ghosts, not 2-3 but like 8+, you can emp the whole army and still have remaining for templars. Add in vikings, marauders to take up space and add dps to armored, medivacs to heal, you have the standard terran army.
Edit: you can employ strategies like observer sniping and the follow-up cloaked ghosts to be safe while emp'ing. Many protoss don't leave an observer with their army at all.
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On July 11 2012 22:29 Andertech wrote:Show nested quote +Qibla wrote:
So I've asked this question a few times here. The answers so fat have been take a third really fast, or go 4-6 rax all in.
I've tried both of these, and neither seems to work. Any other options in beating a Nexus first?
Maybe you didnt pushed at the timing you should, 2 rax or even bunker rush might work if you manage to pull it of correctly, the right answer though might lie in taking a fast third. Good army trade its key, and if you do want to punish a nexus first you should not try to go and win the game just with one push, you should make economic damage. When a Protoss goes nexus first he gets exposed to early marine marauder pushes UNTIL he has 2 sentries, if you manage to take down the sentries early on you can continue to pressure, remember that he doesnt have warpgate early on, and your units are quite good with good micro. Take down his army first, and then go for probes or pylons(if you take down 1or 2 pylons you can keep the pressure on for a longer amount of time since he wont be able to reinforce and thus might just lose his expansion or the game if your push was good enough). 4 or 6 rax is not a good option, you dont want to compromise your economy in mid game, since it is your most valuable and only favored timing (medivac or ghost push). 2rax bunker rush into expo, or 2rax marine marauder push (w/concussive shells) are both good options since he wont have enough units to hold them in time. In case of a 2rax marine marauder push, you should hit with your first marauder marines and a couple of scvs, target fire sentries first, then stalkers, move your marines if they get targeted by zealots and if viable build a bunker or 2. Hope this helped you out.
So assuming I open gasless, I tried early marine pressure, but this time he went a nexus first, the followed up forge, and had cannons ready up by the time my first marine got there. So in this case is my only option a fast 3rd?
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what is the best way to approach the 1 base Hellion Marine drop when going 1 rax f exp?
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On July 12 2012 14:20 XenOsky- wrote:
what is the best way to approach the 1 base Hellion Marine drop when going 1 rax f exp?
It is almost impossible to defend it if you dont scout it coming on some maps and your units are at your nat. When you scout a 13gas and you dont get a late scv scout at the natural for expo, you should burn your 5:30 scan on your first 50 on the second orbital. If you see there is no techlab or a naked starport making something then you know it will be a fast drop.
The best way is to make a bunker in a good location preferably in between your mineral line and production facilities pointing towards the nearest cliff to their likely drop area; load your marines in there, not your marauders. This is so if you realize you cant engage and have to temporarily pull your scvs and units away, you dont get your stim techlab sniped. Speaking of which, dont build your stim techlab on the farthest rax from your mineral line. Build 1 bunker at the front of your nat too and load 4 marines in there, put 2 scvs on autorepair move command on said bunker, and have the rest of your units rallying on your ramp/inside your main (explained next paragraph).
If you are on a map with a xelnaga in between the bases, clear it with 2 marines to beat their 1 and put an scv there, if you succeed, you can put all your army inside your main, if you cant, keep your main army on your ramp or just slightly above it. Always have an engi bay ready for a potential cloak banshee followup.
Make marauder off your stim researching rax and the other two reactors.
Pull like 5 scvs (too many and they will clump and do nothing but die to hellions) and use this buffer to attack the medivac! Good luck.
GL!
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EPT
