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On June 28 2012 10:23 Vanchen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 07:56 iAmJeffReY wrote:On June 28 2012 07:23 Seiferz wrote:On June 27 2012 15:52 TAAF wrote:On June 27 2012 14:35 Angel_ wrote:
So. Recently I've run into a bunch of zergs that are taking their third at 6:15 to 6:30 on three queens and no zerglings, or very very few zerglings. Initially I was trying to do builds that would hit at 8-9 minutes to capitalize on them trying to drone really hard on nothing...and then I thought, "Hey! just attack at 6:45 to 7:00 with whatever and some scvs! because he'll have nothing." It turns out that's a terrible idea. Terrible, terrible, horrible damage idea, resulting in being behind and then getting raped.
I'm struggling with what builds to do, specifically, that go back to my 8-9 minute idea. I feel like 10:30+ timings are just too risky and give the zerg too much time to react and prepare, while allowing him to get drones out (unless you can do some sort of banshee harrass INTO that attack or something), and really that it might be better to just go for a greedy game yourself if you're not going to do any aggression until then. So I'm looking for ideas. My previous build was a 1 rax FE into 3 rax with hellions and stim, but....it's been really messy, and hit's later than I think is optimal, at least how I'm doing it.
Does anyone have some advice on builds, or general advice (even if it's "no angel, actually you just need to go for a macro game with really safe aggressive drop play fast into maurader heavy assload of medivac fun time")?
thanks.
-discouraged. I do this build and rape Zergs with only queens. 10 depot 12 rax 15 depot to like 10% -> halt and scout (rax scv finishes) Or anytime before to deny scout, doesn't change the BO at all. 16 gas 17 marine 17 OC 21 CC at natural (once OC is done, make an SCV and rally it to natural 400 minerals once it gets there) 23 factory 24 depot (start wall off) 25 rax 25 rax Go with constant scv production and 4 marines -> reactor. Keep scouting SCV alive. Check gas, and pool timing, then go to natural to scout for a spine if they make it. If they make a spine, move out with 3 marines to pressure with 3 marine 1 scv. If no spine, go on 4 marines 1 scv. Kite lings (they're slow) and snipe any OLs you can. Spines are my priority, as they die very fast to 4 marines 1 scv. With decent control, you can get 1-2 drones, 3-4 lings, maybe a queen if they're sloppy, or maybe an OL. Once the 2/3 rax are done, one gets a tech lab other starts marines. Once tech lab is about 50-75% done, start ebay at wall of. Depot well before you need them to not be blocked. Constant hellions to keep map control, and constant marines to bolster your army. Start stim once tech lab is done, and +1 likewise with the ebay. After about 15-20 seconds of starting plus 1, start 2nd tech lab, and CS once it's done. Move out a bit before stim cs and +1 finish to establish map control if it's 'safe'. Most zergs now a days go multiple queens, and a faster third. This push shits on those 3rds, as stim/cs/+1 marines with hellion support rolllllllll zerg units early. I personally delay the push by a bit, and make 3-4 marauders to pick off queens, and spines faster. Once +1 is done, start +1 armor. When +1 armor is 70% start a 2nd ebay, and an armory. Start 3rd cc 70-80 supply, in that range. From there, get 2nd and 3rd gas, 2 more rax, starport, and 2nd factory. If they go ling infestor -> 2 factories start hellions constant with blue flame started. I have 5 rax, 2 tech lab, 3 reactor, 6 marine/2 marauder/2 hellion cycles. With this composition, you can be out on the map sniping lings and forcing more lings = less drones. Once they establish a bit of order, tech lab 2nd factory, and get double factory siege tank production as you continue 5 rax, 2 fac, 1 port production. You're set up for awesome 3 base production, fast upgrades, and constant pressure with still solid macro and an early third. Drops around 9-10 min. This Build was posted originally on this thread by iAmJeffReY can you post a replay of that? I tried it and I think im doing something wrong. when i pushed out with stim/cs/+1 and billion hellions he just made 75 lings and barely held my push off so i didnt get to do much damage. He produced 75 lings. If you don't see that as damage, then something is wrong. You probably just miss controlled it, as I've faced a substantial amount of lings with it, and it does quite well if you control well. The last part is just a transition I use sometimes. Lately, I drop 2 gasses as I push, get a starport, land fac on tech lab, drop 2 more raxes, and land the rax that was on a tech lab with a reactor. After 3rd CC starts, start 2nd fac, armory, and 2nd ebay. http://drop.sc/181273 vs Zilea 1326 pts last season http://drop.sc/181272 vs keyduNreal 1214 pts last season http://drop.sc/203728 vs jerm 1242 pts last season http://drop.sc/188397 vs bobbylight 1048 last season http://drop.sc/203727 vs Psilon 800 pts this season -- 1326 pts last season http://drop.sc/193368 vs oGsLure 1386 pts last season http://drop.sc/203726 vs exioNNezi 1254 pts last season http://drop.sc/199191 vs SCSPandain 763pts this season -- 1237 pts last season That should be a good sample size and amount of examples to show the build. I always get marauders now, and always scout for a fast third and move out early if they have it, and do constant pressure and go hard on that stim push. Two more against nezi one win one loss http://drop.sc/208651http://drop.sc/209158 Hey lol, you play with Nezi too? If you guys want some openings for tvz, here are some vs. Nezi as well. Best to ignore the text though. http://drop.sc/209215 -> 15cc into 4 rax combat shield push that hits at 8:30. It holds a roach bling bust as we can see from this replay. http://drop.sc/209214 -> Polt's MM/Hellion push. Similar to the Demuslim push, I just prefer it and think it's more powerful because the rally is more units and stronger units. Lose the game though but the push does a lot of damage  The follow up can be anything bio related after.
Yeah, just started to. Played him on the ladder, and needed a solid TvZ prac partner. Tryin to make him one of my go to guys now.
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Good videos to learn? Like day9's but for terran only, i think i saw some in tl but then i lost them :/. What u guys recommend?
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Can someone find me a TvP replay where terran opens 1/1/1 then expands and win?
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United States4883 Posts
On June 28 2012 07:38 dthree wrote:
Hey can anyone suggest a new opening for me in TvZ? Until recently been doing the 1rax-->expo-->2gas-->banshee+hellion pressure into midgame but its being destroyed recently. Im in diamond league
You can go to the other standards: 1rax FE -> 3-4rax early marine pressure (CS optional) or 1rax FE -> 1-1-1 marine/hellion/medivac attack. Both transition into a good heavy bio or biomech midgame.
Otherwise, you can try going 1rax -> triple CC -> mech. You can start with blue flame hellions, hellion drops, or tanks to safely take a 3rd.
Hope that helps!
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United States4883 Posts
On June 28 2012 12:23 Requiem- wrote:
Good videos to learn? Like day9's but for terran only, i think i saw some in tl but then i lost them :/. What u guys recommend?
Before they were all removed, LastShadow's vlogs were really informative and helpful. If he ever puts them back up on his youtube (LastShadow9), I suggest you look at them. I think he's currently still hiding in shame after what happened at RedBull Battlegrounds.
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Like I guess most of the players out there feel, in TvZ you MUST do some serious damage early on to be able to win the game. If not the Zerg get mass bases, mass drones, hive tech and rape you.
Right now I'm doing a 3 orbital command build that hit with 1-1, combat shield, stim, 5 tanks and about 40 marines at 12:40 at the same time as I'm moving out my last orbital command.
I feel that the push is quite strong with a good economic follow up. Sometime I get his third, and some time he hold and rape me. I feel that the push might be too late, and maybe I have to do damage even earlier to be able to play an even game with the Zerg.
Do you guys also agree that the terran MUST do an early push to be able to win? If you do, then at what time must this push hit? While he is building his third? After third is finished? Before mutalisks pop at 10:00-12:00?
Please share your timing of WHEN a TvZ Push MUST hit to deny the Zerg his insane macro game.
Also... If you do not agree that a Terran must do sick damage early on, then please share how you think a terran can play macro mode without doing an early push. I feel that even if I go 3 OC, double enginering bay and tech into siege tank and medivacs early, if I do not push than the zerg just completely overrun me, have creep on the whole map and get like 5 vs 3 base (Most maps very hard to get fourth base vs macro-mode zerg).
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On June 28 2012 18:15 xertion wrote:
Like I guess most of the players out there feel, in TvZ you MUST do some serious damage early on to be able to win the game. If not the Zerg get mass bases, mass drones, hive tech and rape you.
Right now I'm doing a 3 orbital command build that hit with 1-1, combat shield, stim, 5 tanks and about 40 marines at 12:40 at the same time as I'm moving out my last orbital command.
I feel that the push is quite strong with a good economic follow up. Sometime I get his third, and some time he hold and rape me. I feel that the push might be too late, and maybe I have to do damage even earlier to be able to play an even game with the Zerg.
Do you guys also agree that the terran MUST do an early push to be able to win? If you do, then at what time must this push hit? While he is building his third? After third is finished? Before mutalisks pop at 10:00-12:00?
Please share your timing of WHEN a TvZ Push MUST hit to deny the Zerg his insane macro game.
Also... If you do not agree that a Terran must do sick damage early on, then please share how you think a terran can play macro mode without doing an early push. I feel that even if I go 3 OC, double enginering bay and tech into siege tank and medivacs early, if I do not push than the zerg just completely overrun me, have creep on the whole map and get like 5 vs 3 base (Most maps very hard to get fourth base vs macro-mode zerg).
The latest you have to push in my experience is 10:00 to force a lot of units. Any later and they can easily have 60+ Drones while holding/crushing it, and they can easily make another wave of 10+ more while you rebuild your Marine/Tank/Medivac.
Take it with a grain of salt though. You may just need to refine your build order.
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Hello TL
Lately I have staggered onto the problem with mech TvZ that I simply cant win lategame unless I am on more bases than the zerg.
Replay here, its vs a mid/highmaster zerg.
http://drop.sc/208364
In this certain game I had killed 50drones at the 16min mark.
I was really unlucky with the first big engagement, 2/2 finished right after.
One big problem I have is playing cost efficient enough lategame, I should make more ravens and possibly more tanks atleast if he use alot of corruptors(my banshees cant snipe infestors).
I know my macro could have been better.
Posting this again, and please, actually help me.
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On June 28 2012 18:54 Phays wrote:Hello TL Lately I have staggered onto the problem with mech TvZ that I simply cant win lategame unless I am on more bases than the zerg. Replay here, its vs a mid/highmaster zerg. http://drop.sc/208364In this certain game I had killed 50drones at the 16min mark. I was really unlucky with the first big engagement, 2/2 finished right after. One big problem I have is playing cost efficient enough lategame, I should make more ravens and possibly more tanks atleast if he use alot of corruptors(my banshees cant snipe infestors). I know my macro could have been better. Posting this again, and please, actually help me.
This could be a respons to Starshaped regarding some changes he could do with his mech play to improve it. Since you have a lot more control on the map for the early parts of the game with your hellions unlike in his replay where the creep touch his base within minutes (it felt like).
Only things I see:
- At 10:00 you have 44 SCV (1 Worker killed). At 16:00 you have 59 SCV's. You miss a few cycles between 08:00 - 10:00 but mainly you miss a lot between 10:00 - 16:20. Maybe you stop production for some reason? Or is it a mistake?
If you continued production you would probably have a larger economic advantage after killing his 50 drones, with maybe 75 scv vs 42 drones (16:00).
- Same tip as Starshaped, maybe you should try to leapfrog tanks a bit more to clear more creep. Between 15:00 and until you move out at 19:00 you are camping at your third. Maybe you should wall off at the bottom of the ramp between fourth base and third base (if you are afraid of runbys?) and instead set up your tanks at the Xel'Naga tower.
If you had your army set up here, it would probably be easier to strike his fifth base (right base) with either hellions or maybe a larger part of your army. Ofcourse you also get the advantage that you stop creep spread midmap instead of at your base if you setup at this position.
Or maybe you could siege like this after taking your fourth:
http://i.imgur.com/6oBcF.png
With Xel'Naga control and hit his fourth (see arrow).
Would'nt both positions be better than your current position between your third and fourth base?
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Hey Guys,
Just a quick one which came up at my mind while at work
Am I correct that it's no the creep that gives vision to zergs but the creep tumors ? If yes, what's their range ?
So when I move my army to creep and scan to kill the tumors, will they loose sight of my army, but the creep still remains there ?
Can someone please explain how this work
Thanks
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On June 28 2012 20:22 djtopa wrote:Hey Guys, Just a quick one which came up at my mind while at work Am I correct that it's no the creep that gives vision to zergs but the creep tumors ? If yes, what's their range ? So when I move my army to creep and scan to kill the tumors, will they loose sight of my army, but the creep still remains there ? Can someone please explain how this work Thanks
Creep is just a status on the ground that makes zerg units faster. Zergs actually gain vision from the invisible creep tumor structures. If the Creep tumors are all killed, even if the creep is still there, the zerg can't see there. Make sure you catch all the tumors! Each tumor has a vision range of 11, just a little bit larger than the creep range it spreads (10).
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On June 28 2012 19:56 xertion wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 18:54 Phays wrote:Hello TL Lately I have staggered onto the problem with mech TvZ that I simply cant win lategame unless I am on more bases than the zerg. Replay here, its vs a mid/highmaster zerg. http://drop.sc/208364In this certain game I had killed 50drones at the 16min mark. I was really unlucky with the first big engagement, 2/2 finished right after. One big problem I have is playing cost efficient enough lategame, I should make more ravens and possibly more tanks atleast if he use alot of corruptors(my banshees cant snipe infestors). I know my macro could have been better. Posting this again, and please, actually help me. This could be a respons to Starshaped regarding some changes he could do with his mech play to improve it. Since you have a lot more control on the map for the early parts of the game with your hellions unlike in his replay where the creep touch his base within minutes (it felt like). Only things I see: - At 10:00 you have 44 SCV (1 Worker killed). At 16:00 you have 59 SCV's. You miss a few cycles between 08:00 - 10:00 but mainly you miss a lot between 10:00 - 16:20. Maybe you stop production for some reason? Or is it a mistake? If you continued production you would probably have a larger economic advantage after killing his 50 drones, with maybe 75 scv vs 42 drones (16:00). - Same tip as Starshaped, maybe you should try to leapfrog tanks a bit more to clear more creep. Between 15:00 and until you move out at 19:00 you are camping at your third. Maybe you should wall off at the bottom of the ramp between fourth base and third base (if you are afraid of runbys?) and instead set up your tanks at the Xel'Naga tower. If you had your army set up here, it would probably be easier to strike his fifth base (right base) with either hellions or maybe a larger part of your army. Ofcourse you also get the advantage that you stop creep spread midmap instead of at your base if you setup at this position. Or maybe you could siege like this after taking your fourth: http://i.imgur.com/6oBcF.pngWith Xel'Naga control and hit his fourth (see arrow). Would'nt both positions be better than your current position between your third and fourth base?
Ya, need to work on my macro, for some reason I got the worst macro in TvZ..
Actually when you say it I agree alot with positioning my army further onto the map when I build up my siege tank count and next game I will try the attack pattern you drawed.
One big problem attacking with mech though is unless I got planetarys and few tanks left around xelnaga tower, I am weak vs counterattacks. But I'll do that.
The more think of it the better that attack way is I keep zerg on 4bases and I protect my 4 bases, and at the same time I will be able to sneak in hellions/banshees to his forth base.
Thanks alot!
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Russian Federation68 Posts
So, dear team liquid folowers. Do we terrans stil have any 1 base pushes against zerg which can do terrible damage if won't be scouted by zerg?
For a long time i was using 1-1-1 hellion-banshe build and transiotion to 2 base Thor-hellion-banshee push. But now, hellions can't be cost effective against zerg because of mass qweens builds.
I forced to play macro games in my TvZ and my win rate is aproximetly 58% (sc2gears think so), but it will be nice to know some semi-allin ior all-in tactics against zerg players.
We have 1-1-1 banshe-tank-marine push which is very strong against FE terran.
We have 1-1-2 and variations of 1-1-1 agains protoss.
But what we have against zerg now?
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double proxy rax hits a sweet timing before queens are out.
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Double reactor hellion is also kinda nice, and easy to execute. Just mine enough gas for 2 factories and 2 reactors and then pull them off. Don't forget depots, because off of 2 reactors, that's 8 supply being built every 30 seconds. I usually attack after 2 sets get out from the second factory, although I'm not sure what works best with this new metagame. But if zerg only has 1 spine and 3-4 queens, no roachs, he's dead a lot of the time. Make sure you don't let him spine up his base though. Kill the drones, kill building spines, move to the main (or back to the nat)
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On June 27 2012 23:35 dynwar7 wrote:
How do I play marine tank/bio in TvT? I mean, I normally like going marine tank, and when I see he is going mech I try to add ltos of marauders since they are good vs mech.
But the main problem for me is...medivacs. His vikings will kill my medi and I cannot heal my marine marauder....what is the remedy of this? Surely many pros hav eplayed a lot of bio/marine tank vs mech and encountered situations such as this?
Still looking for opinions on this. mymedivacs get killed by his vikings, what should I do? OR is marine tank simply not viable vs mech?
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On June 28 2012 23:55 dynwar7 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 23:35 dynwar7 wrote:
How do I play marine tank/bio in TvT? I mean, I normally like going marine tank, and when I see he is going mech I try to add ltos of marauders since they are good vs mech.
But the main problem for me is...medivacs. His vikings will kill my medi and I cannot heal my marine marauder....what is the remedy of this? Surely many pros hav eplayed a lot of bio/marine tank vs mech and encountered situations such as this? Still looking for opinions on this. mymedivacs get killed by his vikings, what should I do? OR is marine tank simply not viable vs mech?
It depends on your playstyle and on your opponent´s Viking count. If you know he has just a few Vikings only with his army, you can try do do drops. If you both play passive with your armies or if you are containing him, you need to outproduce his Vikings to take control of your position. This should be easier with Marine-Tank because you will have more gas left than the meching player especially in the midgame.
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On June 28 2012 21:50 yaRus wrote:
So, dear team liquid folowers. Do we terrans stil have any 1 base pushes against zerg which can do terrible damage if won't be scouted by zerg?
For a long time i was using 1-1-1 hellion-banshe build and transiotion to 2 base Thor-hellion-banshee push. But now, hellions can't be cost effective against zerg because of mass qweens builds.
I forced to play macro games in my TvZ and my win rate is aproximetly 58% (sc2gears think so), but it will be nice to know some semi-allin ior all-in tactics against zerg players.
We have 1-1-1 banshe-tank-marine push which is very strong against FE terran.
We have 1-1-2 and variations of 1-1-1 agains protoss.
But what we have against zerg now?
11/11 rax is as good as it gets right now. I use this for about 30% of my games TvZ at 900 pt master. Obviously proxy both and I like to go for the bunker wall on the bottom of the ramp. Even if you get it up, it's not sufficient to win the game. But the game gets a lot more interesting and tends to be very dynamic-- makes for great games.
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Hello everyone ^_^, recently switched to terran (from zerg) and wondering what you guys think about a hellion/ghost opener to counter those zergs that go for mass queen while pumping drones out like crazy. So the idea behind it is getting ghosts early to snipe the queens and since queens are psionic they take 50 damage and die in 4 shots. The hellions are there to burn up lings if he makes them and kill the creep tumors since ghosts are slow and can be chased down by queens on creep (I think). This opener has the added side effect of putting the zerg player in an awkward situation if he goes ling/infestor like many zergs do now a days because ghosts that will probably have full energy and be able to snipe infestors like crazy. Only real counter would be roaches but since zerg has long range queens the zerg shouldn't be building them anyway, and if you see roaches you know an all in is coming or you're vsing an inexperienced player. Also this sets you up for an interesting drops and harass opportunities because you can constantly snipe queens to lower the zergs larvae generation (which believe me is REALLY dam annoying from a zerg perspective). you can also snipe larvae if you see that the eggs are making something because if I remember correctly larvae only have 25 hp and die in 1 snipe (their 25 armor being ignored by snipe). Also hellion drops would give more opportunities to do more economical damage to the zerg. So what do you guys think?
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On June 28 2012 21:50 yaRus wrote:
So, dear team liquid folowers. Do we terrans stil have any 1 base pushes against zerg which can do terrible damage if won't be scouted by zerg?
For a long time i was using 1-1-1 hellion-banshe build and transiotion to 2 base Thor-hellion-banshee push. But now, hellions can't be cost effective against zerg because of mass qweens builds.
I forced to play macro games in my TvZ and my win rate is aproximetly 58% (sc2gears think so), but it will be nice to know some semi-allin ior all-in tactics against zerg players.
We have 1-1-1 banshe-tank-marine push which is very strong against FE terran.
We have 1-1-2 and variations of 1-1-1 agains protoss.
But what we have against zerg now?
U can try 111 with super fast helions drop.
U make 10 supply, 12 gaz, 13 rak, 16 orbital and facto, reac on rak, startport when facto finishes.
Make sure to make a wall off with rak, facto, starport, it will help you not die in case of early push.
Go harass expo with first 2 helions and drop the other 4 helions in the main and try to make dammage microing helions and dropship.
Then i follow up with viking right after dropship in order to clean up lords, switch barack with facto and make marines, and i expand or double expand (depends on dammage u did) cause i dont like all ins.
Adding 2 more raks and ebay.
Its pretty micro intensive at start, so will got to train it.
I stole it from the awesome rainbow who always open 111 and late expo vs zergs.
There is several variations of that shit and differnts follow up possible. Only thing is u got to make dammage.
Sometimes u will have to be tricky.
For example u can drop 3 helions in the main instaed of 4, and keep the 3 others helions near the natural.
When u drop main zerg will transfer drones to natural, then u send the other 3 behind mineral line while keeping him busy in the main with the drop.
Also dont forget to bring the dropship when u drop in order to be able to harass both main and natural mineral lines.
Dont forget to macro while ure doing all that shit ^^
hf gl //
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EPT
