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On June 28 2012 00:03 Starshaped wrote:OK, to anyone who says mech is totally awesome in TvZ, please watch this and tell me what the hell I can do (high master EU): http://replayfu.com/r/ZtZSkFrom my point of view I: *Get fast 3 OC *Hold his shitty 2base all-in with 0 losses (but I guess it's not really possible for Zerg to be all-in) From there? I should be super far ahead, right? Like, how can he all-in and fail and still be totally fine? He just creeps the map, takes expos, techs, and I can't do a single thing even though I have a strong economy, good upgrades, and an equal army in food. If I move out and lose my army once it's over, and there's no way to move out on creep vs roaches with mech, and the creep is touching my nat so absurdly fast... I try to harass with some hellions, but it doesn't do much. The one time I move out to clear some creep so I can put down a 4th I get instantly surrounded and lose everything. I try to get ghosts vs infestors. but good luck getting off a single fucking EMP. This matchup feels so hopeless right now for me...
Well, first off all I do agree with you that I also feel that a Terran must play A LOT better than the Zerg to be able to win, I feel that the matchup is quite unforgiving. However, we are here to make the best out of it so please dont disregard anything I say because you think "It's gimicky", "I should need to play that much better to beat him" etc.
First of all. His "all in" that you stated was not an all in. Sure it was a roach + baneling bust that hit at 9:20. He didnt produce any attacking unit throughout this attack, he instead expanded and droned behind it. But you are right that it didnt do any real damage. Just want to get that out there that it was not an "all in" and just because he failed to do damage with it, doesnt mean that it should've been auto-win for you.
Couple of questions:
1) Why did you leave your tanks in the main for so long? Why didnt you move them further down to your third and down on the ramp against your fourth to deny any creep spread from denying your expansion?
2) Why did you move out with your thors + 3 hellions and leave all your tanks behind? It ended up with you being fungled and surrounded. If you would've brought your tanks and spread your thors more, the battle would've looked different. Lookes like he got your whole mech army in 2 fungles.
3) You had idle vikings while waiting for broodlord transition. Maybe you can use them to clear some overlords to open up possibilities for additional blueflame hellion drops or harass?
I think the tank in the main was a problem for the creep spread and your push.
But yes, I do agree with the fact that it's sad that a terran is still "behind" even though he go 3 Orbital Commands with mules and defend early aggression.
Please look at my tank + marine replay a couple of posts above and give me feedback.
EDIT: Also your marine push didnt do anything, maybe you should've atleast scanned to remove creep tumors or just go back when you see no third?
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How do I most effectively finish a toss who tried to trick me with 1base dt if they fall back and expand + dbl upgrade? I usually want to just push out with my first two medivacs because I'll have so much more army at that point but dts really are a problem. I try to save scans but I have to spend one at each watch tower and at least one more at his ramp before I can make damage.
Do you just save 4-5 scans in that case, tech to ghosts for EMPs before or go for sth else like a drop where you don't have to clear towers?
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On June 27 2012 14:46 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 14:35 Angel_ wrote:
So. Recently I've run into a bunch of zergs that are taking their third at 6:15 to 6:30 on three queens and no zerglings, or very very few zerglings. Initially I was trying to do builds that would hit at 8-9 minutes to capitalize on them trying to drone really hard on nothing...and then I thought, "Hey! just attack at 6:45 to 7:00 with whatever and some scvs! because he'll have nothing." It turns out that's a terrible idea. Terrible, terrible, horrible damage idea, resulting in being behind and then getting raped.
I'm struggling with what builds to do, specifically, that go back to my 8-9 minute idea. I feel like 10:30+ timings are just too risky and give the zerg too much time to react and prepare, while allowing him to get drones out (unless you can do some sort of banshee harrass INTO that attack or something), and really that it might be better to just go for a greedy game yourself if you're not going to do any aggression until then. So I'm looking for ideas. My previous build was a 1 rax FE into 3 rax with hellions and stim, but....it's been really messy, and hit's later than I think is optimal, at least how I'm doing it.
Does anyone have some advice on builds, or general advice (even if it's "no angel, actually you just need to go for a macro game with really safe aggressive drop play fast into maurader heavy assload of medivac fun time")?
thanks.
-discouraged. The build that I have been doing is a 1rax expo into 4rax. If you macro correctly, you should have excess minerals to make a 3rd at 7:00 and attack with 16-17 marines. This 7:30 push almost always kills the 3rd and/or a bunch of zerglings. Doing some research on this, I've found that I break even on workers with zerg by 9:00 (about 50 SCVs). This naturally transitions into a bio heavy midgame based around 2 techlab rax + 2 reactor rax and constant medivac production. The follow-up push is at 12:00 with stim/cs, +1/+1, and medivacs. I've had great success stepping into the late game by just being incredibly aggressive from 12:00-15:00 while establishing a 3rd. Just a thought! If you want the build order, I'll give it to you. Other ideas are centered around early rax pressure, sometimes with combat shield. If you do 4 rax + 1 gas, you might be able to do a cs push around 8:00. Similarly, you can do a 7:00 cs push off of 3rax (but less marines). Hope this helps!
When do you take your gas with this style?
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On June 28 2012 01:19 Hero1 wrote:
How do I most effectively finish a toss who tried to trick me with 1base dt if they fall back and expand + dbl upgrade? I usually want to just push out with my first two medivacs because I'll have so much more army at that point but dts really are a problem. I try to save scans but I have to spend one at each watch tower and at least one more at his ramp before I can make damage.
Do you just save 4-5 scans in that case, tech to ghosts for EMPs before or go for sth else like a drop where you don't have to clear towers?
I would say you want to get a raven as fast as humanly possible and then you should be able to attack quite easily. Your instinct that the protoss is low on army going 1 base DTs is entirely correct. All you need to do is perma counter the DTs and you should have a much larger army.
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On June 28 2012 01:00 xertion wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 00:03 Starshaped wrote:OK, to anyone who says mech is totally awesome in TvZ, please watch this and tell me what the hell I can do (high master EU): http://replayfu.com/r/ZtZSkFrom my point of view I: *Get fast 3 OC *Hold his shitty 2base all-in with 0 losses (but I guess it's not really possible for Zerg to be all-in) From there? I should be super far ahead, right? Like, how can he all-in and fail and still be totally fine? He just creeps the map, takes expos, techs, and I can't do a single thing even though I have a strong economy, good upgrades, and an equal army in food. If I move out and lose my army once it's over, and there's no way to move out on creep vs roaches with mech, and the creep is touching my nat so absurdly fast... I try to harass with some hellions, but it doesn't do much. The one time I move out to clear some creep so I can put down a 4th I get instantly surrounded and lose everything. I try to get ghosts vs infestors. but good luck getting off a single fucking EMP. This matchup feels so hopeless right now for me... Well, first off all I do agree with you that I also feel that a Terran must play A LOT better than the Zerg to be able to win, I feel that the matchup is quite unforgiving. However, we are here to make the best out of it so please dont disregard anything I say because you think "It's gimicky", "I should need to play that much better to beat him" etc. First of all. His "all in" that you stated was not an all in. Sure it was a roach + baneling bust that hit at 9:20. He didnt produce any attacking unit throughout this attack, he instead expanded and droned behind it. But you are right that it didnt do any real damage. Just want to get that out there that it was not an "all in" and just because he failed to do damage with it, doesnt mean that it should've been auto-win for you. Couple of questions: 1) Why did you leave your tanks in the main for so long? Why didnt you move them further down to your third and down on the ramp against your fourth to deny any creep spread from denying your expansion? 2) Why did you move out with your thors + 3 hellions and leave all your tanks behind? It ended up with you being fungled and surrounded. If you would've brought your tanks and spread your thors more, the battle would've looked different. Lookes like he got your whole mech army in 2 fungles. 3) You had idle vikings while waiting for broodlord transition. Maybe you can use them to clear some overlords to open up possibilities for additional blueflame hellion drops or harass? I think the tank in the main was a problem for the creep spread and your push. But yes, I do agree with the fact that it's sad that a terran is still "behind" even though he go 3 Orbital Commands with mules and defend early aggression. Please look at my tank + marine replay a couple of posts above and give me feedback. EDIT: Also your marine push didnt do anything, maybe you should've atleast scanned to remove creep tumors or just go back when you see no third?
1: I'm terrified of roach doomdrops, the bane of mech. I agree I should have moved them, though, and slowly leap-frogged to kill some creep.
2: Yeah, that was bad, but the game was already over at that point (even though nothing had happened up until that point).
3: I think I did use them to snipe overlords. Can't harass when creep maphack gives my opponent vision of the entire map. Between fungals, creep, speedlings etc. I hardly find it worth it to try and harass at this stage in the game.
My marine push would have done something against a macro player. I totally improvised the move-out timing, though. I have no idea when is the ideal time to push out. I didn't send the marines back because I saw no 3rd and knew an all-in was coming, so instead of sending them back and having them die half way, I decided to buy time with them until I could set up bunkers and whatnot.
I would comment your replay, but I have very little experience with marine/tank in TvZ, so I don't feel like I can say too much. I will look it over and if anything obvious pops up I'll let you know, but don't expect much.
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On June 27 2012 23:27 xertion wrote:I just played a TvZ where I did a "new build" of mine that I'm trying out. I don't think that I did any mistake at all except that I was LITTLE delayed by 1-1 upgrades which might have caused 1 battle to be little more trade efficient. The game is vs Master Zerg. So the game was: - Fast expand into hellions into third Orbital Command. - QXC Bunker to stop creep spread and to make the later push to the third base more efficient - While I'm on 3 OC vs 2 base Zerg I wait until he takes third, and then I do a tank + marine push with Stim and Combat shield (and preferably 1-1, however it was little delayed this game so I never had 1-1 during the fight). With my push I did successfully kill his third base while he was massing up his ling + infestor army. He than overrun my army at his third base with mass lings. Meanwhile I've set up my third base and I'm waiting with a bunch of tanks and spread out marines vs infestors. He easily overrun my army and third base while he go into hive tech, 3-3 and ultralisks. After his overrun on my third, the game is basically over however it drags out for a while longer until I finally GG. The ONLY mistake I see that I made this game was: - Little delayed 1-1 which would've made the first battle more trade efficient for my part. - I didnt spot his fourth base (He double expanded after he killed QXC-bunker, which I missed) He still totally overrun me. I dont see that I did any wrong with the macro. Maybe I could've set up my second factory little bit faster, but still. What should I have done? http://drop.sc/208964EDIT: Please notice that I have low money whole game, I have more scv than he have drones and we are about same amount of bases (He takes a fourth base that he never gets to use until his third dies, so we are both on 3 bases until the game is over). EDIT2: Second mistake I made that I see now is too high energy on Orbital Commands. Too many saved mules. Which makes a difference in macro. However should it really make THAT big of a difference on 3v3 base TvZ? Is that the "only" mistake I did?
OK, here's some of my thoughts:
*First of all, you didn't use your FIRST mule until 90 or so energy was built up. Work on that. Especially early on you want near-perfect mule timing. Later on it's not bad to have scans saved up etc.
*This map is a complete joke for Terran and I suggest you veto it. However, if you insist on playing on it you should definitely go 15CC, or at least CC before 1st marine and before 2nd depot. Greed is the name of the game on huge maps like this.
*QXC bunker I find is gimmicky and risky. For one thing, a 9-10 roach pressure would instantly lose you the game, and so would a speedling runby. But I've never done it so I won't comment further on it
*He has 2-2 upgrades in the fight where you got crushed, whereas you have 0-0
*15 minutes in and all 3 of your OCs are full of energy.
*I don't know the gas timings of marine/tank, but you didn't seem to take your 3rd, 4th, 5th etc. gas soon enough.
Edit: I know you mentioned some of this stuff yourself.
And yes, missing all those mules is a HUGE deal. Don't underestimate it.
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On June 28 2012 01:46 Starshaped wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 23:27 xertion wrote:I just played a TvZ where I did a "new build" of mine that I'm trying out. I don't think that I did any mistake at all except that I was LITTLE delayed by 1-1 upgrades which might have caused 1 battle to be little more trade efficient. The game is vs Master Zerg. So the game was: - Fast expand into hellions into third Orbital Command. - QXC Bunker to stop creep spread and to make the later push to the third base more efficient - While I'm on 3 OC vs 2 base Zerg I wait until he takes third, and then I do a tank + marine push with Stim and Combat shield (and preferably 1-1, however it was little delayed this game so I never had 1-1 during the fight). With my push I did successfully kill his third base while he was massing up his ling + infestor army. He than overrun my army at his third base with mass lings. Meanwhile I've set up my third base and I'm waiting with a bunch of tanks and spread out marines vs infestors. He easily overrun my army and third base while he go into hive tech, 3-3 and ultralisks. After his overrun on my third, the game is basically over however it drags out for a while longer until I finally GG. The ONLY mistake I see that I made this game was: - Little delayed 1-1 which would've made the first battle more trade efficient for my part. - I didnt spot his fourth base (He double expanded after he killed QXC-bunker, which I missed) He still totally overrun me. I dont see that I did any wrong with the macro. Maybe I could've set up my second factory little bit faster, but still. What should I have done? http://drop.sc/208964EDIT: Please notice that I have low money whole game, I have more scv than he have drones and we are about same amount of bases (He takes a fourth base that he never gets to use until his third dies, so we are both on 3 bases until the game is over). EDIT2: Second mistake I made that I see now is too high energy on Orbital Commands. Too many saved mules. Which makes a difference in macro. However should it really make THAT big of a difference on 3v3 base TvZ? Is that the "only" mistake I did? OK, here's some of my thoughts: *First of all, you didn't use your FIRST mule until 90 or so energy was built up. Work on that. Especially early on you want near-perfect mule timing. Later on it's not bad to have scans saved up etc. *This map is a complete joke for Terran and I suggest you veto it. However, if you insist on playing on it you should definitely go 15CC, or at least CC before 1st marine and before 2nd depot. Greed is the name of the game on huge maps like this. *QXC bunker I find is gimmicky and risky. For one thing, a 9-10 roach pressure would instantly lose you the game, and so would a speedling runby. But I've never done it so I won't comment further on it *He has 2-2 upgrades in the fight where you got crushed, whereas you have 0-0 *15 minutes in and all 3 of your OCs are full of energy. *I don't know the gas timings of marine/tank, but you didn't seem to take your 3rd, 4th, 5th etc. gas soon enough. Edit: I know you mentioned some of this stuff yourself. And yes, missing all those mules is a HUGE deal. Don't underestimate it.
Regarding the QXC bunker. It does not work on maps like Cloud Kingdom where there are no ramp to the natural, and they can spread their creep to the third anyway. However I don't see it being "gamble" if you scout no gas from the opponent. Usually I do a 15 SCV scout, scout his gas, then send my first 3 marine to his ramp while I build the bunker and then rally the fourth marine to make it complete. If he goes no gas there is like a 90% chance he is going greedy 3 base mass queen build. This bunker delay this build quite good I feel. (EDIT: I did scout his gas timings, I scout no gas. So no I dont think its gimmick or gamble to go QXC bunker when you scout no gas)
In my replay though I scout his base last(?) so I never scouted his gas I think. (On another computer now so can not check again) so yes then it was a bit gamble. If I scout gas, I build bunker in base instead to prepare for speedling runby.
By the way, regarding your engineering bay block at Cloud Kingdom. I think you would gain a lot more by letting the scv build until 5 hp/death instead of scouting gas with it. That would delay the hatch quite a bit, and maybe even force him to take his third base as his second. While would be more vulnerable to your marine push, or maybe a hellion+marauder push?
I mean it doesnt really matter if he goes gas or not, does it? Since you still go 3 barrack walloff into three OC. Maybe you have different buildorder if you scout his gas timings differently, but if not. Then maybe its better to delay his hatch further by building longer.
Maybe you could do the engineering block (And maybe force him to take his third or atleast delay his second base by additional seconds) into hellion + marauder and then replace techlabs with new factories and go into mech after your hellion + marauder push that hopefully kills his base at the vulnerable position.
-----
Regarding my replay I'm going to study it further. After taking a break and giving it some thoughts there are some things I could obviously improve such as:
- After combat shield is finished I should immediately switch the techlab to a second factory so that my 2x tank production start sooner. I'm quite sure it got a bit delayed.
- Build 2x enginering bays when stim is finishing, to time the 1-1 with the combat shield push to make it more trade efficient.
- Use mules to support a third factory more marines and faster reactor starport.
However, even with these changes I still feel a bit like there are quite "small" changes compared to how much he crushed my army at 3v3 base. I mean even though I didn't use mules efficient, I still had more workers than the zerg, and also kept my money lower. I also mined from my third base longer then he did (before his push hit).
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GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
On shakuras pleatau, whats the best way to hold a 1 base immortal timing if you went for an econ cheese build (I did a 14cc build). I walled off my ramp with barracks, but he was able to bust through.
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On June 28 2012 02:55 amazingxkcd wrote:
On shakuras pleatau, whats the best way to hold a 1 base immortal timing if you went for an econ cheese build (I did a 14cc build). I walled off my ramp with barracks, but he was able to bust through.
A lot of Bunkers(3+), and a lot of Marines.
I can't really say more without a replay.
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On June 28 2012 02:55 amazingxkcd wrote:
On shakuras pleatau, whats the best way to hold a 1 base immortal timing if you went for an econ cheese build (I did a 14cc build). I walled off my ramp with barracks, but he was able to bust through.
Aggainst 1 base immortal timing bunker´s or walls won´t do much. The key is to have a lot of units, so my general reaction two a 2 gas opener from Protoss ( 1 base immortal needs 2 gas) is to go up to 4 rax before getting my gas. Another option is to go addons before factory with the normal 3 Rax. But if you don´t post a replay i can´t say, whether your reaction to it was wrong or whether your macro was bad.
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What are a couple good cheeses in TvZ? Proxy 11/11 (even heard 9/9?) Double proxy banshees?
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On June 28 2012 02:25 xertion wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 01:46 Starshaped wrote:On June 27 2012 23:27 xertion wrote:I just played a TvZ where I did a "new build" of mine that I'm trying out. I don't think that I did any mistake at all except that I was LITTLE delayed by 1-1 upgrades which might have caused 1 battle to be little more trade efficient. The game is vs Master Zerg. So the game was: - Fast expand into hellions into third Orbital Command. - QXC Bunker to stop creep spread and to make the later push to the third base more efficient - While I'm on 3 OC vs 2 base Zerg I wait until he takes third, and then I do a tank + marine push with Stim and Combat shield (and preferably 1-1, however it was little delayed this game so I never had 1-1 during the fight). With my push I did successfully kill his third base while he was massing up his ling + infestor army. He than overrun my army at his third base with mass lings. Meanwhile I've set up my third base and I'm waiting with a bunch of tanks and spread out marines vs infestors. He easily overrun my army and third base while he go into hive tech, 3-3 and ultralisks. After his overrun on my third, the game is basically over however it drags out for a while longer until I finally GG. The ONLY mistake I see that I made this game was: - Little delayed 1-1 which would've made the first battle more trade efficient for my part. - I didnt spot his fourth base (He double expanded after he killed QXC-bunker, which I missed) He still totally overrun me. I dont see that I did any wrong with the macro. Maybe I could've set up my second factory little bit faster, but still. What should I have done? http://drop.sc/208964EDIT: Please notice that I have low money whole game, I have more scv than he have drones and we are about same amount of bases (He takes a fourth base that he never gets to use until his third dies, so we are both on 3 bases until the game is over). EDIT2: Second mistake I made that I see now is too high energy on Orbital Commands. Too many saved mules. Which makes a difference in macro. However should it really make THAT big of a difference on 3v3 base TvZ? Is that the "only" mistake I did? OK, here's some of my thoughts: *First of all, you didn't use your FIRST mule until 90 or so energy was built up. Work on that. Especially early on you want near-perfect mule timing. Later on it's not bad to have scans saved up etc. *This map is a complete joke for Terran and I suggest you veto it. However, if you insist on playing on it you should definitely go 15CC, or at least CC before 1st marine and before 2nd depot. Greed is the name of the game on huge maps like this. *QXC bunker I find is gimmicky and risky. For one thing, a 9-10 roach pressure would instantly lose you the game, and so would a speedling runby. But I've never done it so I won't comment further on it *He has 2-2 upgrades in the fight where you got crushed, whereas you have 0-0 *15 minutes in and all 3 of your OCs are full of energy. *I don't know the gas timings of marine/tank, but you didn't seem to take your 3rd, 4th, 5th etc. gas soon enough. Edit: I know you mentioned some of this stuff yourself. And yes, missing all those mules is a HUGE deal. Don't underestimate it. Regarding the QXC bunker. It does not work on maps like Cloud Kingdom where there are no ramp to the natural, and they can spread their creep to the third anyway. However I don't see it being "gamble" if you scout no gas from the opponent. Usually I do a 15 SCV scout, scout his gas, then send my first 3 marine to his ramp while I build the bunker and then rally the fourth marine to make it complete. If he goes no gas there is like a 90% chance he is going greedy 3 base mass queen build. This bunker delay this build quite good I feel. (EDIT: I did scout his gas timings, I scout no gas. So no I dont think its gimmick or gamble to go QXC bunker when you scout no gas) In my replay though I scout his base last(?) so I never scouted his gas I think. (On another computer now so can not check again) so yes then it was a bit gamble. If I scout gas, I build bunker in base instead to prepare for speedling runby. By the way, regarding your engineering bay block at Cloud Kingdom. I think you would gain a lot more by letting the scv build until 5 hp/death instead of scouting gas with it. That would delay the hatch quite a bit, and maybe even force him to take his third base as his second. While would be more vulnerable to your marine push, or maybe a hellion+marauder push? I mean it doesnt really matter if he goes gas or not, does it? Since you still go 3 barrack walloff into three OC. Maybe you have different buildorder if you scout his gas timings differently, but if not. Then maybe its better to delay his hatch further by building longer. Maybe you could do the engineering block (And maybe force him to take his third or atleast delay his second base by additional seconds) into hellion + marauder and then replace techlabs with new factories and go into mech after your hellion + marauder push that hopefully kills his base at the vulnerable position. ----- Regarding my replay I'm going to study it further. After taking a break and giving it some thoughts there are some things I could obviously improve such as: - After combat shield is finished I should immediately switch the techlab to a second factory so that my 2x tank production start sooner. I'm quite sure it got a bit delayed. - Build 2x enginering bays when stim is finishing, to time the 1-1 with the combat shield push to make it more trade efficient. - Use mules to support a third factory more marines and faster reactor starport. However, even with these changes I still feel a bit like there are quite "small" changes compared to how much he crushed my army at 3v3 base. I mean even though I didn't use mules efficient, I still had more workers than the zerg, and also kept my money lower. I also mined from my third base longer then he did (before his push hit).
I was actually just checking for his pool. I want to see if he throws down a pool or if he intends to go for hatch 1st. But yes, letting it finish as much as possible is the best thing to do.
And yeah, TvZ is hard right now, but you can definitely improve upon the replay you posted. Better mules, better upgrades, faster gas etc.
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Just throwing this out there if anyone has any critique of my latest 2base all-in TvZ:
http://replayfu.com/r/QggWLh
I've mentioned it before, and this is a similar variation. 15cc -> 3rax -> reactor hellions/2port banshee -> marine/hellion/banshe/medi/SCV all-in.
I engi-block to hopefully get him to place his hatch at his 3rd and I try to hide my true marine count as I push out.
Any comments are welcome. I know my macro was terrible, which it usually is when I'm improvising/trying something new.
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On June 28 2012 04:29 Starshaped wrote:Just throwing this out there if anyone has any critique of my latest 2base all-in TvZ: http://replayfu.com/r/QggWLhI've mentioned it before, and this is a similar variation. 15cc -> 3rax -> reactor hellions/2port banshee -> marine/hellion/banshe/medi/SCV all-in. I engi-block to hopefully get him to place his hatch at his 3rd and I try to hide my true marine count as I push out. Any comments are welcome. I know my macro was terrible, which it usually is when I'm improvising/trying something new.
That's an awesome build, but totally situational. If you're relying on the ebay block, you can only use it on 2 player maps. If you rely on the barracks wall-off, you're vulnerable on maps like condemned ridge/tal'darim etc. That said, I'm gonna give it a go. I'm sick of just being a punchbag in every tvz lol.
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On June 28 2012 06:08 Darren1337 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 04:29 Starshaped wrote:Just throwing this out there if anyone has any critique of my latest 2base all-in TvZ: http://replayfu.com/r/QggWLhI've mentioned it before, and this is a similar variation. 15cc -> 3rax -> reactor hellions/2port banshee -> marine/hellion/banshe/medi/SCV all-in. I engi-block to hopefully get him to place his hatch at his 3rd and I try to hide my true marine count as I push out. Any comments are welcome. I know my macro was terrible, which it usually is when I'm improvising/trying something new. That's an awesome build, but totally situational. If you're relying on the ebay block, you can only use it on 2 player maps. If you rely on the barracks wall-off, you're vulnerable on maps like condemned ridge/tal'darim etc. That said, I'm gonna give it a go. I'm sick of just being a punchbag in every tvz lol.
The engi block is only a bonus, it's not a necessity. And yeah, I only do it on maps with where 3rax walls off 100%. Entombed Valley needs 4 rax to wall off but it I do it there, too.
On the other maps I put up a futile effort in a macro game.
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TvZ: what are the best follow ups to a bunker rush that kills the natural but does not end the game directly? i realize this may depend on how the zerg reacts, but any general guidelines for how to think about this situation would be appreciated.
as some background: ive noticed that my macro tends to slip during the rush, but i think that's mostly because i don't have a clear sense of what i should be doing to begin with (master on EU+NA so my macro can be at least decent if i have a plan). i also think i tend to be a little too much of a 'spoon terran.' for instance, here's a game where my successful 11/11 rush turns into a 32 minute grinding win where i could have lost at a couple points: http://drop.sc/209144 (i realize i'm making some mistakes in my engagements later in the game, but i really feel like i should have been able to kill him long before running into those problems)
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On June 27 2012 15:52 TAAF wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 14:35 Angel_ wrote:
So. Recently I've run into a bunch of zergs that are taking their third at 6:15 to 6:30 on three queens and no zerglings, or very very few zerglings. Initially I was trying to do builds that would hit at 8-9 minutes to capitalize on them trying to drone really hard on nothing...and then I thought, "Hey! just attack at 6:45 to 7:00 with whatever and some scvs! because he'll have nothing." It turns out that's a terrible idea. Terrible, terrible, horrible damage idea, resulting in being behind and then getting raped.
I'm struggling with what builds to do, specifically, that go back to my 8-9 minute idea. I feel like 10:30+ timings are just too risky and give the zerg too much time to react and prepare, while allowing him to get drones out (unless you can do some sort of banshee harrass INTO that attack or something), and really that it might be better to just go for a greedy game yourself if you're not going to do any aggression until then. So I'm looking for ideas. My previous build was a 1 rax FE into 3 rax with hellions and stim, but....it's been really messy, and hit's later than I think is optimal, at least how I'm doing it.
Does anyone have some advice on builds, or general advice (even if it's "no angel, actually you just need to go for a macro game with really safe aggressive drop play fast into maurader heavy assload of medivac fun time")?
thanks.
-discouraged. I do this build and rape Zergs with only queens. 10 depot 12 rax 15 depot to like 10% -> halt and scout (rax scv finishes) Or anytime before to deny scout, doesn't change the BO at all. 16 gas 17 marine 17 OC 21 CC at natural (once OC is done, make an SCV and rally it to natural 400 minerals once it gets there) 23 factory 24 depot (start wall off) 25 rax 25 rax Go with constant scv production and 4 marines -> reactor. Keep scouting SCV alive. Check gas, and pool timing, then go to natural to scout for a spine if they make it. If they make a spine, move out with 3 marines to pressure with 3 marine 1 scv. If no spine, go on 4 marines 1 scv. Kite lings (they're slow) and snipe any OLs you can. Spines are my priority, as they die very fast to 4 marines 1 scv. With decent control, you can get 1-2 drones, 3-4 lings, maybe a queen if they're sloppy, or maybe an OL. Once the 2/3 rax are done, one gets a tech lab other starts marines. Once tech lab is about 50-75% done, start ebay at wall of. Depot well before you need them to not be blocked. Constant hellions to keep map control, and constant marines to bolster your army. Start stim once tech lab is done, and +1 likewise with the ebay. After about 15-20 seconds of starting plus 1, start 2nd tech lab, and CS once it's done. Move out a bit before stim cs and +1 finish to establish map control if it's 'safe'. Most zergs now a days go multiple queens, and a faster third. This push shits on those 3rds, as stim/cs/+1 marines with hellion support rolllllllll zerg units early. I personally delay the push by a bit, and make 3-4 marauders to pick off queens, and spines faster. Once +1 is done, start +1 armor. When +1 armor is 70% start a 2nd ebay, and an armory. Start 3rd cc 70-80 supply, in that range. From there, get 2nd and 3rd gas, 2 more rax, starport, and 2nd factory. If they go ling infestor -> 2 factories start hellions constant with blue flame started. I have 5 rax, 2 tech lab, 3 reactor, 6 marine/2 marauder/2 hellion cycles. With this composition, you can be out on the map sniping lings and forcing more lings = less drones. Once they establish a bit of order, tech lab 2nd factory, and get double factory siege tank production as you continue 5 rax, 2 fac, 1 port production. You're set up for awesome 3 base production, fast upgrades, and constant pressure with still solid macro and an early third. Drops around 9-10 min. This Build was posted originally on this thread by iAmJeffReY
can you post a replay of that? I tried it and I think im doing something wrong. when i pushed out with stim/cs/+1 and billion hellions he just made 75 lings and barely held my push off so i didnt get to do much damage.
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Hey can anyone suggest a new opening for me in TvZ? Until recently been doing the 1rax-->expo-->2gas-->banshee+hellion pressure into midgame but its being destroyed recently. Im in diamond league
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On June 28 2012 07:23 Seiferz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 15:52 TAAF wrote:On June 27 2012 14:35 Angel_ wrote:
So. Recently I've run into a bunch of zergs that are taking their third at 6:15 to 6:30 on three queens and no zerglings, or very very few zerglings. Initially I was trying to do builds that would hit at 8-9 minutes to capitalize on them trying to drone really hard on nothing...and then I thought, "Hey! just attack at 6:45 to 7:00 with whatever and some scvs! because he'll have nothing." It turns out that's a terrible idea. Terrible, terrible, horrible damage idea, resulting in being behind and then getting raped.
I'm struggling with what builds to do, specifically, that go back to my 8-9 minute idea. I feel like 10:30+ timings are just too risky and give the zerg too much time to react and prepare, while allowing him to get drones out (unless you can do some sort of banshee harrass INTO that attack or something), and really that it might be better to just go for a greedy game yourself if you're not going to do any aggression until then. So I'm looking for ideas. My previous build was a 1 rax FE into 3 rax with hellions and stim, but....it's been really messy, and hit's later than I think is optimal, at least how I'm doing it.
Does anyone have some advice on builds, or general advice (even if it's "no angel, actually you just need to go for a macro game with really safe aggressive drop play fast into maurader heavy assload of medivac fun time")?
thanks.
-discouraged. I do this build and rape Zergs with only queens. 10 depot 12 rax 15 depot to like 10% -> halt and scout (rax scv finishes) Or anytime before to deny scout, doesn't change the BO at all. 16 gas 17 marine 17 OC 21 CC at natural (once OC is done, make an SCV and rally it to natural 400 minerals once it gets there) 23 factory 24 depot (start wall off) 25 rax 25 rax Go with constant scv production and 4 marines -> reactor. Keep scouting SCV alive. Check gas, and pool timing, then go to natural to scout for a spine if they make it. If they make a spine, move out with 3 marines to pressure with 3 marine 1 scv. If no spine, go on 4 marines 1 scv. Kite lings (they're slow) and snipe any OLs you can. Spines are my priority, as they die very fast to 4 marines 1 scv. With decent control, you can get 1-2 drones, 3-4 lings, maybe a queen if they're sloppy, or maybe an OL. Once the 2/3 rax are done, one gets a tech lab other starts marines. Once tech lab is about 50-75% done, start ebay at wall of. Depot well before you need them to not be blocked. Constant hellions to keep map control, and constant marines to bolster your army. Start stim once tech lab is done, and +1 likewise with the ebay. After about 15-20 seconds of starting plus 1, start 2nd tech lab, and CS once it's done. Move out a bit before stim cs and +1 finish to establish map control if it's 'safe'. Most zergs now a days go multiple queens, and a faster third. This push shits on those 3rds, as stim/cs/+1 marines with hellion support rolllllllll zerg units early. I personally delay the push by a bit, and make 3-4 marauders to pick off queens, and spines faster. Once +1 is done, start +1 armor. When +1 armor is 70% start a 2nd ebay, and an armory. Start 3rd cc 70-80 supply, in that range. From there, get 2nd and 3rd gas, 2 more rax, starport, and 2nd factory. If they go ling infestor -> 2 factories start hellions constant with blue flame started. I have 5 rax, 2 tech lab, 3 reactor, 6 marine/2 marauder/2 hellion cycles. With this composition, you can be out on the map sniping lings and forcing more lings = less drones. Once they establish a bit of order, tech lab 2nd factory, and get double factory siege tank production as you continue 5 rax, 2 fac, 1 port production. You're set up for awesome 3 base production, fast upgrades, and constant pressure with still solid macro and an early third. Drops around 9-10 min. This Build was posted originally on this thread by iAmJeffReY can you post a replay of that? I tried it and I think im doing something wrong. when i pushed out with stim/cs/+1 and billion hellions he just made 75 lings and barely held my push off so i didnt get to do much damage.
He produced 75 lings.
If you don't see that as damage, then something is wrong. You probably just miss controlled it, as I've faced a substantial amount of lings with it, and it does quite well if you control well.
The last part is just a transition I use sometimes. Lately, I drop 2 gasses as I push, get a starport, land fac on tech lab, drop 2 more raxes, and land the rax that was on a tech lab with a reactor. After 3rd CC starts, start 2nd fac, armory, and 2nd ebay. http://drop.sc/181273 vs Zilea 1326 pts last season http://drop.sc/181272 vs keyduNreal 1214 pts last season http://drop.sc/203728 vs jerm 1242 pts last season http://drop.sc/188397 vs bobbylight 1048 last season http://drop.sc/203727 vs Psilon 800 pts this season -- 1326 pts last season http://drop.sc/193368 vs oGsLure 1386 pts last season http://drop.sc/203726 vs exioNNezi 1254 pts last season http://drop.sc/199191 vs SCSPandain 763pts this season -- 1237 pts last season That should be a good sample size and amount of examples to show the build. I always get marauders now, and always scout for a fast third and move out early if they have it, and do constant pressure and go hard on that stim push.
Two more against nezi one win one loss
http://drop.sc/208651
http://drop.sc/209158
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On June 28 2012 07:56 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 07:23 Seiferz wrote:On June 27 2012 15:52 TAAF wrote:On June 27 2012 14:35 Angel_ wrote:
So. Recently I've run into a bunch of zergs that are taking their third at 6:15 to 6:30 on three queens and no zerglings, or very very few zerglings. Initially I was trying to do builds that would hit at 8-9 minutes to capitalize on them trying to drone really hard on nothing...and then I thought, "Hey! just attack at 6:45 to 7:00 with whatever and some scvs! because he'll have nothing." It turns out that's a terrible idea. Terrible, terrible, horrible damage idea, resulting in being behind and then getting raped.
I'm struggling with what builds to do, specifically, that go back to my 8-9 minute idea. I feel like 10:30+ timings are just too risky and give the zerg too much time to react and prepare, while allowing him to get drones out (unless you can do some sort of banshee harrass INTO that attack or something), and really that it might be better to just go for a greedy game yourself if you're not going to do any aggression until then. So I'm looking for ideas. My previous build was a 1 rax FE into 3 rax with hellions and stim, but....it's been really messy, and hit's later than I think is optimal, at least how I'm doing it.
Does anyone have some advice on builds, or general advice (even if it's "no angel, actually you just need to go for a macro game with really safe aggressive drop play fast into maurader heavy assload of medivac fun time")?
thanks.
-discouraged. I do this build and rape Zergs with only queens. 10 depot 12 rax 15 depot to like 10% -> halt and scout (rax scv finishes) Or anytime before to deny scout, doesn't change the BO at all. 16 gas 17 marine 17 OC 21 CC at natural (once OC is done, make an SCV and rally it to natural 400 minerals once it gets there) 23 factory 24 depot (start wall off) 25 rax 25 rax Go with constant scv production and 4 marines -> reactor. Keep scouting SCV alive. Check gas, and pool timing, then go to natural to scout for a spine if they make it. If they make a spine, move out with 3 marines to pressure with 3 marine 1 scv. If no spine, go on 4 marines 1 scv. Kite lings (they're slow) and snipe any OLs you can. Spines are my priority, as they die very fast to 4 marines 1 scv. With decent control, you can get 1-2 drones, 3-4 lings, maybe a queen if they're sloppy, or maybe an OL. Once the 2/3 rax are done, one gets a tech lab other starts marines. Once tech lab is about 50-75% done, start ebay at wall of. Depot well before you need them to not be blocked. Constant hellions to keep map control, and constant marines to bolster your army. Start stim once tech lab is done, and +1 likewise with the ebay. After about 15-20 seconds of starting plus 1, start 2nd tech lab, and CS once it's done. Move out a bit before stim cs and +1 finish to establish map control if it's 'safe'. Most zergs now a days go multiple queens, and a faster third. This push shits on those 3rds, as stim/cs/+1 marines with hellion support rolllllllll zerg units early. I personally delay the push by a bit, and make 3-4 marauders to pick off queens, and spines faster. Once +1 is done, start +1 armor. When +1 armor is 70% start a 2nd ebay, and an armory. Start 3rd cc 70-80 supply, in that range. From there, get 2nd and 3rd gas, 2 more rax, starport, and 2nd factory. If they go ling infestor -> 2 factories start hellions constant with blue flame started. I have 5 rax, 2 tech lab, 3 reactor, 6 marine/2 marauder/2 hellion cycles. With this composition, you can be out on the map sniping lings and forcing more lings = less drones. Once they establish a bit of order, tech lab 2nd factory, and get double factory siege tank production as you continue 5 rax, 2 fac, 1 port production. You're set up for awesome 3 base production, fast upgrades, and constant pressure with still solid macro and an early third. Drops around 9-10 min. This Build was posted originally on this thread by iAmJeffReY can you post a replay of that? I tried it and I think im doing something wrong. when i pushed out with stim/cs/+1 and billion hellions he just made 75 lings and barely held my push off so i didnt get to do much damage. He produced 75 lings. If you don't see that as damage, then something is wrong. You probably just miss controlled it, as I've faced a substantial amount of lings with it, and it does quite well if you control well. Show nested quote +The last part is just a transition I use sometimes. Lately, I drop 2 gasses as I push, get a starport, land fac on tech lab, drop 2 more raxes, and land the rax that was on a tech lab with a reactor. After 3rd CC starts, start 2nd fac, armory, and 2nd ebay. http://drop.sc/181273 vs Zilea 1326 pts last season http://drop.sc/181272 vs keyduNreal 1214 pts last season http://drop.sc/203728 vs jerm 1242 pts last season http://drop.sc/188397 vs bobbylight 1048 last season http://drop.sc/203727 vs Psilon 800 pts this season -- 1326 pts last season http://drop.sc/193368 vs oGsLure 1386 pts last season http://drop.sc/203726 vs exioNNezi 1254 pts last season http://drop.sc/199191 vs SCSPandain 763pts this season -- 1237 pts last season That should be a good sample size and amount of examples to show the build. I always get marauders now, and always scout for a fast third and move out early if they have it, and do constant pressure and go hard on that stim push. Two more against nezi one win one loss http://drop.sc/208651http://drop.sc/209158
Hey lol, you play with Nezi too?
If you guys want some openings for tvz, here are some vs. Nezi as well. Best to ignore the text though.
http://drop.sc/209215 -> 15cc into 4 rax combat shield push that hits at 8:30. It holds a roach bling bust as we can see from this replay.
http://drop.sc/209214 -> Polt's MM/Hellion push. Similar to the Demuslim push, I just prefer it and think it's more powerful because the rally is more units and stronger units. Lose the game though but the push does a lot of damage  The follow up can be anything bio related after.
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EPT
