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On September 12 2011 07:27 Aiurr wrote:Show nested quote +
@ Aiurr: if they do magic box against thor marine medivac they'll lose a lot of mutas. Especially if you have good upgrades.
No they do not magic box. They just leave marines and thors to lings and banelings and go kill half of my base where I don't have thors and marines. I'd need a flying muta counter or build like 30 turrets all over the map. I think I'll have to get bunkers with +2 armor upgrade on this map... I don't see me winning otherwise.
That doesn't really make sense. You have a defensive thor and some turrets, all the while being aggressive. That way if they try to engage turrets then there's risk of thor but if they go straight past turrets and box thor then they will at least lose mutas and you can repel them with marine/thor/turrets.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On September 12 2011 17:15 xza wrote:
TvP zealot HT archon
1. Do I really need that much apm to dodge storms while emping, while stutter stepping?
2. Do I emp all the units or spam emp on the archons/templars?
3. Do I run away from the storms or try to run into the HTs so they are obliged to storm themselves or is that a bad idea since i need to stutter step micro
4. Do I treat archons and templars like colo balls so that means I should focus fire every archon,HT in range first?
1) you can do it with low apm. at the start of the fight, stim all your stuff, then emp, then stutter step. prioritize emp over stutter step unless part of your army is under a storm.
2) 2 emps per templar (unless they're middle-range/below energy, then 1 emp), 2-3 emps per archon, get one emp on the ball of chargelots as they go in. try to have enough ghosts to do this all. If you can only emp one group, hit the splash units, which are more costly and more effective-- you can kite the zealots but it's hard to kite psistorm
3) dont' run into the storms, run away.
4) dont' focus fire HTs unless you're sure you can get them before storms. In general, kiting and runing is fine. use your focus fire to pick off weak archons post-emp
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On September 12 2011 06:00 Aiurr wrote:
Just one question:
if zerg gets 20-25+ mutas on a big map, is it auto-lose for terran?
- you can't kill mutas with marines because they just run away if see more than 10 marines
- less than 3 thors are useless because of magic box
- turrets are useless against 25 mutas
- if you mass vikings against mutas it is GG because of zerglings and banelings
I have a lot of problems with mass muta on Typhon Peaks... just can't defend against mutas on this shitty map...
I would try to not to think of anything as 'auto-lose', if all zerg has is 2 bases and 25 mutas and you are on 8 bases and maxed on marine/tank/medivac you can just go kill the zerg so it's situational. The difficulties with 25 mutas you list are correct, they are a highly mobile harassment unit. They are hard to engage when you are not putting any pressure on Zerg because Zerg always has the option to run the mutas away. If you can put pressure on one of his crucial bases however, he will be forced to throw the mutas and everything else he has at you. In which case, you get to engage the mutas with your full army. Depending on relative army composition, relative army size and positioning, this is at least one situation where Terran can engage and destroy 25 mutas.
Diamond Terran, this is just my two cents. Hope it helps.
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On September 12 2011 06:30 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 06:00 Maxie wrote:On September 12 2011 05:47 Blazinghand wrote:
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Hm. If you upload the replay I can take a look and try to point out scouting hints to see this sort of thing coming. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-231121.jpg) Looking at the replay kinda hurts, if I had looked at the full duration of the scan I would've seen a Raven - instead I just looked at it briefly and assumed Banshee. Also I got supplyblocked (54/54) as well as messed up the build (got gas too early + some other stuff), wohoo. I feel like the ~300 minerals I invested in engi bay + turrets really hurt when I had to fight, and I really should've had my units positioned better. Also a bit build order loss I feel... Edit: @ Aiurr: if they do magic box against thor marine medivac they'll lose a lot of mutas. Especially if you have good upgrades. So, this one is a tough scout. Here's a coaching video I made while reviewing your replay: http://www.twitch.tv/blazinghand/b/294850072And here's a non-comprehensive summary of my findings: Build order: fine Macro: better than his Scouting: mostly ok, except you couldn't tell that a tank allin was coming. Scouting Solutions: 1) contest xel'naga towers - you saw he was going for a tech factory play. Was it tanks or hellions? if it's tanks, that's why you didn't see any with your scan. if it's hellions, your 6:30 scan would have seen them, except if they were at xel'naga tower. Send a marine to either claim tower or die to a hellion, giving you information. 2) minimap awareness - change colors to ally/enemy mode so that when he does that marine scout/poke, you know what's up 3) scouting with minimal information-- what does a 3 marine scout mean? It's not a 1 marine scout-- clearly he's got stuff there. also he's not a bio player, since you saw tech lab factory and starport-- so those marines are accompanied by something. What are they with? Probably starport units like banshees, ravens, etc. or just banshees. What else are they with? something from a tech lab factory that researches in TvT. That means: blue flame hellions OR siege tanks. You know it's not hellions, because if he had hellions, he'd poke/scout with those since they're faster-- they'd naturally be at the front of his army anyways
Thanks a lot for your help! Your coaching videos are great. You make a lot of good points. I think I'll contest the Xel'naga watchtowers way more in the future since as Bio I do have quite a few marines to spare, and I'm decently mobile. While watching even the coaching video hurts a little bit, I couldn't help being a little happy when some of your "What I'd do is...." got followed by me doing what you said, haha.
I feel like going up your ramp when besieged by siege tanks is always a bad decision, and I don't know why I did it - I've done it when I had air control but hey, Terran has scans so it's never safe to assume you're able to make use of the highground (did this once when I had gotten siege tanks of my own out, he scanned me as I sieged up and then had 2 more scans...).
I'll be less quick about assuming X when I scout Terran, since the tech tree is so broad.
Also, I considered going around the tanks but as you can see in the coaching video, the tanks actually covered most of the left choke... map is made for tanks it seems. But if I had scouted the tanks I guess I should've tried controlling the towers and tried to catch him unsieged - he had marines moving in front but if I make him siege up continuosly my fighting chances get better by the minute - closer to stim, more units, better economy, etc.
Regardless, thanks a lot! I really appreciate what you're doing for me and the others who need help. 
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On September 12 2011 17:30 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 07:27 Aiurr wrote:
@ Aiurr: if they do magic box against thor marine medivac they'll lose a lot of mutas. Especially if you have good upgrades.
No they do not magic box. They just leave marines and thors to lings and banelings and go kill half of my base where I don't have thors and marines. I'd need a flying muta counter or build like 30 turrets all over the map. I think I'll have to get bunkers with +2 armor upgrade on this map... I don't see me winning otherwise. That doesn't really make sense. You have a defensive thor and some turrets, all the while being aggressive. That way if they try to engage turrets then there's risk of thor but if they go straight past turrets and box thor then they will at least lose mutas and you can repel them with marine/thor/turrets.
well, i guess it doesn't matter anymore... I just removed this map in my 1v1 preferences. And if i ever get to play on it against zerg, I'll just try 3rax all in. Never tried it so it might be a good place to start ;]
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On September 12 2011 20:58 Aiurr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 17:30 Numy wrote:On September 12 2011 07:27 Aiurr wrote:
@ Aiurr: if they do magic box against thor marine medivac they'll lose a lot of mutas. Especially if you have good upgrades.
No they do not magic box. They just leave marines and thors to lings and banelings and go kill half of my base where I don't have thors and marines. I'd need a flying muta counter or build like 30 turrets all over the map. I think I'll have to get bunkers with +2 armor upgrade on this map... I don't see me winning otherwise. That doesn't really make sense. You have a defensive thor and some turrets, all the while being aggressive. That way if they try to engage turrets then there's risk of thor but if they go straight past turrets and box thor then they will at least lose mutas and you can repel them with marine/thor/turrets. well, i guess it doesn't matter anymore... I just removed this map in my 1v1 preferences. And if i ever get to play on it against zerg, I'll just try 3rax all in. Never tried it so it might be a good place to start ;]
If you have 3 bases you can afford to spend money on turrets. I think the problem is your attitude is overly negative so any solution we give you, you will just find a way to make it not work for you. Best of luck with your future endeavors
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On September 12 2011 22:41 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 20:58 Aiurr wrote:On September 12 2011 17:30 Numy wrote:On September 12 2011 07:27 Aiurr wrote:
@ Aiurr: if they do magic box against thor marine medivac they'll lose a lot of mutas. Especially if you have good upgrades.
No they do not magic box. They just leave marines and thors to lings and banelings and go kill half of my base where I don't have thors and marines. I'd need a flying muta counter or build like 30 turrets all over the map. I think I'll have to get bunkers with +2 armor upgrade on this map... I don't see me winning otherwise. That doesn't really make sense. You have a defensive thor and some turrets, all the while being aggressive. That way if they try to engage turrets then there's risk of thor but if they go straight past turrets and box thor then they will at least lose mutas and you can repel them with marine/thor/turrets. well, i guess it doesn't matter anymore... I just removed this map in my 1v1 preferences. And if i ever get to play on it against zerg, I'll just try 3rax all in. Never tried it so it might be a good place to start ;] If you have 3 bases you can afford to spend money on turrets. I think the problem is your attitude is overly negative so any solution we give you, you will just find a way to make it not work for you. Best of luck with your future endeavors
Well, your solutions are very good and I always do it against mutas, but it just doesn't seem to work on Typhoon Peaks. Your third base is int that shit hole where mutas can just appear over your workers and kill all of them before anything gets there. And if it will get there, they just move to my main which is just behind a wall.
But anyway, I found a great solution to this problem, and it is a sensor tower ;]
I just watched a matchup between Jinro and Nestea where Jinro just put a sensor in his 3rd... I just wonder why didn't I think about it before ;]
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On September 12 2011 19:28 Maxie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 06:30 Blazinghand wrote:On September 12 2011 06:00 Maxie wrote:On September 12 2011 05:47 Blazinghand wrote:
[
Hm. If you upload the replay I can take a look and try to point out scouting hints to see this sort of thing coming. Looking at the replay kinda hurts, if I had looked at the full duration of the scan I would've seen a Raven - instead I just looked at it briefly and assumed Banshee. Also I got supplyblocked (54/54) as well as messed up the build (got gas too early + some other stuff), wohoo. I feel like the ~300 minerals I invested in engi bay + turrets really hurt when I had to fight, and I really should've had my units positioned better. Also a bit build order loss I feel... Edit: @ Aiurr: if they do magic box against thor marine medivac they'll lose a lot of mutas. Especially if you have good upgrades. So, this one is a tough scout. Here's a coaching video I made while reviewing your replay: http://www.twitch.tv/blazinghand/b/294850072And here's a non-comprehensive summary of my findings: Build order: fine Macro: better than his Scouting: mostly ok, except you couldn't tell that a tank allin was coming. Scouting Solutions: 1) contest xel'naga towers - you saw he was going for a tech factory play. Was it tanks or hellions? if it's tanks, that's why you didn't see any with your scan. if it's hellions, your 6:30 scan would have seen them, except if they were at xel'naga tower. Send a marine to either claim tower or die to a hellion, giving you information. 2) minimap awareness - change colors to ally/enemy mode so that when he does that marine scout/poke, you know what's up 3) scouting with minimal information-- what does a 3 marine scout mean? It's not a 1 marine scout-- clearly he's got stuff there. also he's not a bio player, since you saw tech lab factory and starport-- so those marines are accompanied by something. What are they with? Probably starport units like banshees, ravens, etc. or just banshees. What else are they with? something from a tech lab factory that researches in TvT. That means: blue flame hellions OR siege tanks. You know it's not hellions, because if he had hellions, he'd poke/scout with those since they're faster-- they'd naturally be at the front of his army anyways Thanks a lot for your help! Your coaching videos are great. You make a lot of good points. I think I'll contest the Xel'naga watchtowers way more in the future since as Bio I do have quite a few marines to spare, and I'm decently mobile. While watching even the coaching video hurts a little bit, I couldn't help being a little happy when some of your "What I'd do is...." got followed by me doing what you said, haha. I feel like going up your ramp when besieged by siege tanks is always a bad decision, and I don't know why I did it - I've done it when I had air control but hey, Terran has scans so it's never safe to assume you're able to make use of the highground (did this once when I had gotten siege tanks of my own out, he scanned me as I sieged up and then had 2 more scans...). I'll be less quick about assuming X when I scout Terran, since the tech tree is so broad. Also, I considered going around the tanks but as you can see in the coaching video, the tanks actually covered most of the left choke... map is made for tanks it seems. But if I had scouted the tanks I guess I should've tried controlling the towers and tried to catch him unsieged - he had marines moving in front but if I make him siege up continuosly my fighting chances get better by the minute - closer to stim, more units, better economy, etc. Regardless, thanks a lot! I really appreciate what you're doing for me and the others who need help.
No problem! I'm always glad to help out. I mean, that's a tough build to scout, and based on your information you basically did the right thing. When I pointed out the whole "3 marine poke" thing that's really hard to realize, and there's always (and I forgot this) the possibility that your opponent is weird and just likes to invest a 150 minerals into a marine scout lol.
Once you were heading up the ramp it was basically done. It was definitely a painful replay to watch just because the tank contain is pretty brutal-- and once you're in your main it's hard 
You make a good point about tank range reaching so far. I'll share with you some micro tricks to abuse the tank AI and hopefully that will give you a little bit of an edge next time.
Flanking/Maneuvering near Tanks:
This is really hard because tanks have hella range. One tip when trying to maneuver against tanks is to have 1 of your guys walk a little ahead, and have him walk into the tank range first (preferably a marine, but an scv can do this too.). If the marine has full health, it'll take 2 tank shots to kill, giving you 6 seconds to walk in and out of the tank range in exchange for a marine.
When engaging seiged up tanks with bio (with or without stim):
A useful trick is to pull like 3 scvs, and as you attack-move into the tanks (if they're sieged up), split up the scvs first and attack-move with them as well. Tanks will automatically prioritize attacking scvs over attacking bio, and although they'll get killed by his marines once they're close, the first tank volley will be absorbed by scvs, buying you crucial time to get closer to his tanks.
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How do I deal with 3 gate immortal allin? Adding a ton of bunkers doesn't seem to stop because immortals eat them like candy and sentries prevent all repairing.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On September 13 2011 01:53 NATO wrote:
How do I deal with 3 gate immortal allin? Adding a ton of bunkers doesn't seem to stop because immortals eat them like candy and sentries prevent all repairing.
What sort of opening to you use? 3 gate robo allin is pretty strong against fast expand builds-- and if you scout he's not expanding, and maybe also that he has a robo this may be coming. Depending on the map you could just make a crap ton of bunkers (like 4) when you scout it coming so there's so much surface area he can't FF them all.
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Hey guys, what are your thoughts of the use of bio in TvT? I've been experimenting with the TvP 2Rax style with a tech lab and reactor into expand. It's been working pretty well, but the delayed starport hurts against banshee play, especially since I'm building addons with my barracks. Would it be better to 1 rax fe into 3 rax, one with a tech lab?
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
If you want to use bio in TvT, I'd recommend using scouting to figure out what's going on. If you see a double gas or something that looks like it could be banshees, focus on marines (and get an early engineering bay since you need one anyways). Otherwise, try not to delay your stim-- after your first marine I'd go for a tech-lab on your barracks. Stimpack makes everything much more manageable.
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On September 13 2011 02:42 Blazinghand wrote:
If you want to use bio in TvT, I'd recommend using scouting to figure out what's going on. If you see a double gas or something that looks like it could be banshees, focus on marines (and get an early engineering bay since you need one anyways). Otherwise, try not to delay your stim-- after your first marine I'd go for a tech-lab on your barracks. Stimpack makes everything much more manageable.
Only problem with going for stim first is blue flame hellions... but I guess that I would've been way better off going for stim first in the game you watched through, to be able to engage tanks...
Still, against anything else I do like combat shields first. Though I think that stim and medivacs would come at about the same time with the build I'm using, which is awesome, hm.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
I mean, at least there's the blue flame nerf coming-- it'll make combat shields a little less necessary against hellions. combat shields do help quite a bit against banshees though.
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True. Gimme dat patch.
PS: suffering with Aiurr atm, dealing with 15-20+ mutas when your army is faar away from your base at the edge of creep, trying to get a fourth base up is tough.
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On September 13 2011 02:42 Blazinghand wrote:
If you want to use bio in TvT, I'd recommend using scouting to figure out what's going on. If you see a double gas or something that looks like it could be banshees, focus on marines (and get an early engineering bay since you need one anyways). Otherwise, try not to delay your stim-- after your first marine I'd go for a tech-lab on your barracks. Stimpack makes everything much more manageable.
I'm not a fan of bio in TvT. I always open up with fast banshee (gas first build) fe, then swap tech into bf hellion/mech, and it does really well against bio. If they are smart, you need to get a turret, b/c of the chance that I might get cloak (which I rarely do), so they get 1-2 turrets + ebay (325 minerals). I usually still get around 5-6 scvs, b/c I can kite marines all day. If they go stim first, I pretty much win easily b/c bf hellions 2 shot marines then.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On September 13 2011 03:20 SoKHo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 02:42 Blazinghand wrote:
If you want to use bio in TvT, I'd recommend using scouting to figure out what's going on. If you see a double gas or something that looks like it could be banshees, focus on marines (and get an early engineering bay since you need one anyways). Otherwise, try not to delay your stim-- after your first marine I'd go for a tech-lab on your barracks. Stimpack makes everything much more manageable. I'm not a fan of bio in TvT. I always open up with fast banshee (gas first build) fe, then swap tech into bf hellion/mech, and it does really well against bio. If they are smart, you need to get a turret, b/c of the chance that I might get cloak (which I rarely do), so they get 1-2 turrets + ebay (325 minerals). I usually still get around 5-6 scvs, b/c I can kite marines all day. If they go stim first, I pretty much win easily b/c bf hellions 2 shot marines then.
Neither am I-- I play full mech. But IF you want to go bio for TvT, get stim unless he's teching.
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On September 13 2011 03:24 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 03:20 SoKHo wrote:On September 13 2011 02:42 Blazinghand wrote:
If you want to use bio in TvT, I'd recommend using scouting to figure out what's going on. If you see a double gas or something that looks like it could be banshees, focus on marines (and get an early engineering bay since you need one anyways). Otherwise, try not to delay your stim-- after your first marine I'd go for a tech-lab on your barracks. Stimpack makes everything much more manageable. I'm not a fan of bio in TvT. I always open up with fast banshee (gas first build) fe, then swap tech into bf hellion/mech, and it does really well against bio. If they are smart, you need to get a turret, b/c of the chance that I might get cloak (which I rarely do), so they get 1-2 turrets + ebay (325 minerals). I usually still get around 5-6 scvs, b/c I can kite marines all day. If they go stim first, I pretty much win easily b/c bf hellions 2 shot marines then. Neither am I-- I play full mech. But IF you want to go bio for TvT, get stim unless he's teching.
Full mech means that you have only 1 Rax at your base if I'm not mistaken? Or do you mean you transition into mech? And then what do you do against banshees if you go mass hellions? Thors as main bulk? Do you use tanks?
Would you mind posting a nice dynamic game of yours? I'm interested and I would like to get inspired a bit.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On September 13 2011 03:28 KenDM wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 03:24 Blazinghand wrote:On September 13 2011 03:20 SoKHo wrote:On September 13 2011 02:42 Blazinghand wrote:
If you want to use bio in TvT, I'd recommend using scouting to figure out what's going on. If you see a double gas or something that looks like it could be banshees, focus on marines (and get an early engineering bay since you need one anyways). Otherwise, try not to delay your stim-- after your first marine I'd go for a tech-lab on your barracks. Stimpack makes everything much more manageable. I'm not a fan of bio in TvT. I always open up with fast banshee (gas first build) fe, then swap tech into bf hellion/mech, and it does really well against bio. If they are smart, you need to get a turret, b/c of the chance that I might get cloak (which I rarely do), so they get 1-2 turrets + ebay (325 minerals). I usually still get around 5-6 scvs, b/c I can kite marines all day. If they go stim first, I pretty much win easily b/c bf hellions 2 shot marines then. Neither am I-- I play full mech. But IF you want to go bio for TvT, get stim unless he's teching. Full mech means that you have only 1 Rax at your base if I'm not mistaken? Or do you mean you transition into mech? And then what do you do against banshees if you go mass hellions? Thors as main bulk? Do you use tanks? Would you mind posting a nice dynamic game of yours? I'm interested and I would like to get inspired a bit.
Full mech is more of a long term game plan, but as a general rule you'll have only 1 rax at your base, and after a certain point in the game you only use it to make addons. Full mech means "I'm gonna dump minerals into hellions instead of marines or marauders". Other than that, it plays just like marine/tank/viking, except you have hellions instead of marines. You use vikings to ward off banshees, drops, etc, and tanks make up most of your gas expenditure. You use hellions to be in front and tank for your tanks, and also to fight cost-effectively against marines and harass against scvs with their speed and splash damage.
You can open with almost any 1/1/1 opening or rax fact expo starport opening and go full mech-- most of the time when I go full mech I make anywhere from 4 to 16 marines before I stop making them depending on what I scout.
Unfortunately, I'm not at my Sc2 computer and won't be there for several hours, but I'll upload an appropriate replay when I get the chance.
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Everytime I FE I get all-ined in TvP. Any tips how for the bunker placement oder getting scv fast enough to repair, and what about Sentrys FF the bunkers and so on? Something general I miss there, cause I lost about 26 of my last 28 games vs p
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EPT
