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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On September 13 2011 03:49 TimoS1703 wrote:
Everytime I FE I get all-ined in TvP. Any tips how for the bunker placement oder getting scv fast enough to repair, and what about Sentrys FF the bunkers and so on? Something general I miss there, cause I lost about 26 of my last 28 games vs p
What kind of all-in? Are we talking about something like a 6-gate that will hit when you're on 2 bases but before you profit, or something like a 4-gate which will hit while you're still in your main?
As far as bunker placement goes, you want to get a slight concave at your natural ramp. This decreases the surface area for your opponent to attack, and increases the surface area for you to repair. Furthermore, you want to have your bunkers about a square back from the edge, so that if he successfully FFs behind the bunkers you have room to run your scvs around front to repair your bunkers from the other side.
If you're having trouble getting scvs over in time, try maynarding more of them so that you have more on hand to repair.
If you upload a replay (with your own analysis attached, of course) I'd be glad to take a look and give advice.
EDIT: If you're reading this, check out the suggestions in the two posts below, but also check out this video:
Holding a sentry 4gate using bunker concave and scv micro:
http://www.twitch.tv/blazinghand/b/294919545
Master League TvP
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On September 13 2011 03:49 TimoS1703 wrote:
Everytime I FE I get all-ined in TvP. Any tips how for the bunker placement oder getting scv fast enough to repair, and what about Sentrys FF the bunkers and so on? Something general I miss there, cause I lost about 26 of my last 28 games vs p
There two ways. You won't like either of them.
Once your scouting has insured you that he is going all-in on you, you have two options. (But only follow these options once you've scouted the all-in.
Skip gas and go pure marines.
5-6 Bunkers with SCVs already beside them, spread out the bunkers a "bit" to force sentries to use up more forcefields than they wanted to.
When I say pure marines, I'm talking like 5-6 rax
Both measures will put you behind on tech (by a lot). smass marines one is not as effective as having 5-6 bunkers, but doesn't need you to pre-pull scvs. The mass bunkers doesn't put you behind on tech as much, and if you scare him off without fighting it also gives you a small refund, but it also puts you behind on econ by a LOT since you need to prepull the scvs.
In either case, you'll be ahead by the end of the engagement so long as there was an engagement. If you do this blindly you'll be behind on both tech and econ (no gas).
So scout!
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On September 13 2011 04:19 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 03:49 TimoS1703 wrote:
Everytime I FE I get all-ined in TvP. Any tips how for the bunker placement oder getting scv fast enough to repair, and what about Sentrys FF the bunkers and so on? Something general I miss there, cause I lost about 26 of my last 28 games vs p There two ways. You won't like either of them. Once your scouting has insured you that he is going all-in on you, you have two options. (But only follow these options once you've scouted the all-in. Skip gas and go pure marines. 5-6 Bunkers with SCVs already beside them, spread out the bunkers a "bit" to force sentries to use up more forcefields than they wanted to. When I say pure marines, I'm talking like 5-6 rax Both measures will put you behind on tech (by a lot). smass marines one is not as effective as having 5-6 bunkers, but doesn't need you to pre-pull scvs. The mass bunkers doesn't put you behind on tech as much, and if you scare him off without fighting it also gives you a small refund, but it also puts you behind on econ by a LOT since you need to prepull the scvs. In either case, you'll be ahead by the end of the engagement so long as there was an engagement. If you do this blindly you'll be behind on both tech and econ (no gas). So scout!
You make very good points. I agree that you need to scout and react appropriately-- that is vital, and without it, you're doomed.
I disagree that you need to cut your tech. In this video of me laddering, I go for a 1 rax fast expand with a quick factory (with the intent of a banshee rush). I see a 4gate coming and add 2 bunkers and hold fine due to concave and space for scvs to repair.
Holding a sentry 4gate using bunker concave and scv micro:
http://www.twitch.tv/blazinghand/b/294919545
Master League TvP
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On September 13 2011 04:19 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 03:49 TimoS1703 wrote:
Everytime I FE I get all-ined in TvP. Any tips how for the bunker placement oder getting scv fast enough to repair, and what about Sentrys FF the bunkers and so on? Something general I miss there, cause I lost about 26 of my last 28 games vs p There two ways. You won't like either of them. Once your scouting has insured you that he is going all-in on you, you have two options. (But only follow these options once you've scouted the all-in. Skip gas and go pure marines. 5-6 Bunkers with SCVs already beside them, spread out the bunkers a "bit" to force sentries to use up more forcefields than they wanted to. When I say pure marines, I'm talking like 5-6 rax Both measures will put you behind on tech (by a lot). smass marines one is not as effective as having 5-6 bunkers, but doesn't need you to pre-pull scvs. The mass bunkers doesn't put you behind on tech as much, and if you scare him off without fighting it also gives you a small refund, but it also puts you behind on econ by a LOT since you need to prepull the scvs. In either case, you'll be ahead by the end of the engagement so long as there was an engagement. If you do this blindly you'll be behind on both tech and econ (no gas). So scout!
I'm going to disagree with lorkac here, you don't need to do either of those things to hold it off. After you FE I would recommend going up to 3 rax, 4 maximum. (more than that and you will be incredibly behind on tech unless you cut production and tech to starport, which will make the extra rax pointless). Before you float the CC down, build 3 bunkers to protect your natural, and hotkey a control group of scvs to use solely for repairing the bunkers. With 3 repaired bunkers and a constant stream of reinforcing marines/marauders from your main barracks, you should hold off most any attack protoss throws at you without sacrificing econ or tech. If you scout that he is indeed allinning you though, it is worth it to throw up some extra bunkers.
Another way to fend off warpgate attacks is to go for a tank build. I don't know if I'm sold on the viability of tanks in mid/lategame TvP but you will never die to a push at your natural if you have 2 bunkers and a few siege tanks behind them.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On September 13 2011 04:30 Leaky wrote:Before you float the CC down, build 3 bunkers to protect your natural, and hotkey a control group of scvs to use solely for repairing the bunkers. With 3 repaired bunkers and a constant stream of reinforcing marines/marauders from your main barracks, you should hold off most any attack protoss throws at you without sacrificing econ or tech. If you scout that he is indeed allinning you though, it is worth it to throw up some extra bunkers.
I agree with you here. This has been my experience as well. I worry more about tech allins than 4gates, since bunkers fare pretty well.
On September 13 2011 04:30 Leaky wrote:
Another way to fend off warpgate attacks is to go for a tank build. I don't know if I'm sold on the viability of tanks in mid/lategame TvP but you will never die to a push at your natural if you have 2 bunkers and a few siege tanks behind them.
The tank defense is a good point, and in the midgame, although tanks are ineffective, they are a solid defense. However, getting tanks out quickly usually requires a slower expo.
In my experience, tanks won't be out in time to stop a 4gate if you're going for a 1 rax FE. Most crisply-executed 4gates hits between 6:00 and 7:00, maybe a little later for an extra warpin. The fact that I go for tanks in my game is just showing how eminently holdable 4gate is with bunkers, since instead of getting marauders, I'm dicking around teching to tanks, which aren't out in time ._.
EDIT: actually looking at my VoD, I do see a tank rolling to the frontlines after the 4-warpgate push has begin and beginning to shoot at 7:25. So if you can last until then, bear in mind that tanks aren't that tankey though and need bunkers to cower behind, but have great DPS.
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I've been playing around with Terran for fun lately (normally I play Zerg), and I have a simple question: What do I do with all these minerals?!
I feel like every time I saturate my third, I end up with thousands of minerals and no gas. Am I building too many SCVs? Or maybe I shoudl take a fourth sooner for the extra gas? The mineral income from MULEs gives me so much that I don't know what to do with it. I've been just spamming marines with the excess, but I know there has to be a smarter idea.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On September 13 2011 05:07 Sentient wrote:
I've been playing around with Terran for fun lately (normally I play Zerg), and I have a simple question: What do I do with all these minerals?!
I feel like every time I saturate my third, I end up with thousands of minerals and no gas. Am I building too many SCVs? Or maybe I shoudl take a fourth sooner for the extra gas? The mineral income from MULEs gives me so much that I don't know what to do with it. I've been just spamming marines with the excess, but I know there has to be a smarter idea.
If you find you have a lot of minerals, you can invest into an extra expansion, or into infrastructure like taking all your gasses, engineering bays, and additional raxes.
In certain matchups, instead of adding reactors onto my barracks, I just make another barracks, since I'm pretty gas starved and have extra minerals, so I'd rather spend 150 minerals than 50 minerals, 50 gas. This also has the added benefit of making another structure that dumps minerals 
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Hi everyone, I came home today after a train delay (some guy jumped in front of a train) and played two games of SCII. I'll post the replays here, since I'm using the 2Rax 3 Bunkers FE my gameplay has changer and my multitasking has improved. I'd like to know how much I've grown.
Dear Blazinghand, after the first supp depo I just automatically que the next SCV cuz' the build order commands Rax#1 to be built on 12 food. But my SCV just stands idle there for a few minutes. Am I doing something wrong?
TvP: LOOOONG Game.
http://drop.sc/34423
TvZ:
http://drop.sc/34422
Questions: What could have gone better?
Additional question: How come I could win while my APM was so low?
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On September 13 2011 05:36 KenDM wrote:Hi everyone, I came home today after a train delay (some guy jumped in front of a train) and played two games of SCII. I'll post the replays here, since I'm using the 2Rax 3 Bunkers FE my gameplay has changer and my multitasking has improved. I'd like to know how much I've grown. Dear Blazinghand, after the first supp depo I just automatically que the next SCV cuz' the build order commands Rax#1 to be built on 12 food. But my SCV just stands idle there for a few minutes. Am I doing something wrong? TvP: LOOOONG Game. http://drop.sc/34423TvZ: http://drop.sc/34422Questions: What could have gone better? Additional question: How come I could win while my APM was so low?
I'll be able to take a look at these in a few hours. Here are some answers to you general questions:
When going for 10 depot 12 barracks, there's usually a bit of a gap between the depot and the barracks. If you're building both of them close to the mineral line, you can send your scv back to mining or something until you have enough money for a barracks. The idea behind a 12 barracks is that you get as many scvs as possible, never stopping scvs, which delays your barracks a little compared to other methods, like 11 barracks, which cuts an scv. In the long run this gives you more income.
To play well, you don't need a lot of APM. In my games I average between 70 and 80 apm, and there are some professional players who have an apm below 100 (though most of them are above that). You could probably get into Diamond League with 50-60 apm if you used it really efficiently.
Just to break it down, 2 base macro goes like this:
every ~15 seconds, make 2 scvs (hotkey for CCs, 2 button presses for scvs): 12 apm
every ~30 seconds, make 2 supply depots (click to get scvs, click twice for 2 depots): 4 apm
every ~30 seconds new round of production out of 5 production facilities (hotkey for prod facs, 10 button presses for new units): 24 apm
So macroing effectively on 2 bases uses about 40 apm. things get more complicated with addons, upgrades, making static defesnes and the like, but this is pretty close to accurate.
If you have a very low apm, like say, 50 apm, this means you can macro on 2 bases and have 10 apm left over for micro-- giving a command to your army every 6 seconds. However, you don't need to command your army every 6 seconds, just when there's fighting happening, so for the most part, between fights you'll have spare apm, and during fights you'll be a little apm-starved. With an apm above 60, you'll be fine in 2-base games, and if you can hit 70-80 you should be able to play a full game without your apm restricting you.
EDIT: oh and i'm not counting "spam" apm like selecting your guys over and over again. this increases your apm score but doesn't actually give you more actions to use. It can be good practice for hand speed and keeping alert though.
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What are your opinions on dropping in TvZ when up against muta and/or infestors? Sometimes I feel like it's just throwing away units, and sometimes you really get a lot out of it.
I mean, they won't be coming back alive (fungal and the medivac aint going anywhere, mutas just shoot you down), they have the potential of causing fairly decent damage, and they can be a good distraction... but a distraction for what?
Would you drop against mutas while you're taking another base? While you're doing a slow push with tanks? Would you drop anytime, anywhere? Basically when I lose against my Z friend he just says "drop more", I guess he has a point, but, argh, when you feel like you barely can leave your base because of the amount of mutas he has, it doesn't feel safe to attempt any drops ;/
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
I think the drop question and the "how do you stop mutalisk counterattacks" question are the same question.
The purpose of a drop is not just to deal damage, but to threaten to deal damage. When you drop a zerg's third or main, his only options are to respond to the drop or to take damage. Except in a situation where he thinks he can take your army down and get into your base and deal more damage than your drop will, he'll always respond to the drop. This means you can use drops to control the location of the zerg's army.
Against a mutalisk player, this means sending lings and blings to kill the drop, but also sending mutalisks because you can pick up your marines and fly somewhere else if you want. And if he diverts his mutalisks, you can move out of your base since you know he's not going for your mineral line. While he's dealing with your drop, you can move up, scan and clear his creep tumors, and then you're sieged up outside his natural or outside his third or between his nat and his third (depends on the map) and he's gotta deal with your army. He can't harass your third or your main with mutalisks because if he does, he has no way of stopping your tanks. Suddenly, he needs his harassing units at home.
It's even better when fighting against infestors. Infestors are slow-moving, and it takes a lot of time to build them up. By dropping, you force him to run his infestors around and drain their energy by hitting smaller numbers of marines, and killing medivacs. To kill a medivac you need around 200 infestor energy: a couple of fungals and some infested terrans, or just a chain of fungals. If his infestors are comitted to dealing with drops, you can unsiege and move closer (normally tanks need to be sieged up to ward infestors away from marines). Then, suddenly, you're sieged up outside his third or whatever and are shooting his stuff, and now you're the one who's in a good place positionally.
This is how terran asserts map presence via drops. You trade a medivac and 8 marines for the ability to reposition your army. The goal of the marine-tank army is to simultaneously be in a good position and be sieged up. of course, you can't move when you're sieged up, and when you move it's risky. If you can control his army's location, you minimize the risk.
Remember to keep a small number of marines and a tank or two at home, and set your rally point to your natural rather than cross the map. Move reinforcements in groups rather than individually, because although dropping and siege-pushing should force zerg units to stay at home and engage your army, wiley zerg players will send small detachments of zerglings to see if you left your front gate open, if your third is unguarded, etc. For this reason, I prefer to have my third be a Planetary Fortress, and make a couple of turrets in case he tries something with mutas.
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On September 13 2011 05:07 Sentient wrote:
I've been playing around with Terran for fun lately (normally I play Zerg), and I have a simple question: What do I do with all these minerals?!
I feel like every time I saturate my third, I end up with thousands of minerals and no gas. Am I building too many SCVs? Or maybe I shoudl take a fourth sooner for the extra gas? The mineral income from MULEs gives me so much that I don't know what to do with it. I've been just spamming marines with the excess, but I know there has to be a smarter idea.
Watch a replay of a long macro game where you have too much money. Look at your SCV count. If hits hitting 80+ cut down on SCVs, Depending on the matchup: spam marines.
Personally, I go MMM v P (so I can spam marines here), marine tank vs Z (I can spam marines here) and marine tank viking vs T (again, I can spam marines and spend them monieess).
Make sure you get as much gas as you can to spend on those important 3-3/stim/combat shield upgrades and you can support your factories and starports (For example, I try to get a fact per base for constant siege tank production + ups for v Z).
Also if you are floating over 2k and you spam marines or something, but you still find yourself with 1k, put down a few more barracks and another CC and use them op SCANS to map hack your opponent (: A lot of the time a perfect scan can be 1000x better than a mule.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On September 13 2011 05:36 KenDM wrote:Hi everyone, I came home today after a train delay (some guy jumped in front of a train) and played two games of SCII. I'll post the replays here, since I'm using the 2Rax 3 Bunkers FE my gameplay has changer and my multitasking has improved. I'd like to know how much I've grown. Dear Blazinghand, after the first supp depo I just automatically que the next SCV cuz' the build order commands Rax#1 to be built on 12 food. But my SCV just stands idle there for a few minutes. Am I doing something wrong? TvP: LOOOONG Game. http://drop.sc/34423TvZ: http://drop.sc/34422Questions: What could have gone better? Additional question: How come I could win while my APM was so low?
TvP game
VoD: http://www.twitch.tv/blazinghand/b/294953669 Part 1
Notes:
fly down to natural earlier
make your 2 main gasses, 3 bunkers earlier
when you have bunkers, use them
upgrades through engi bay asap
You're banking 1500 minerals at 14:00. this is actually ok because of your fast expand, but if your opponent expoed as fast he'd have more stuff than you. the purpose of the fast expand is to get a lot of money, but a lot of money is only good if you spend it.
during 19:00 fight, your micro is fine-- but most of the time you're just watching your army. It's okay, after the intial micro (sieging up, stimpacking) to go back to your base and make more units.
try to be sieged-up as much as possible and use your bio and air units to "draw him in"
Take your 3rd base a little earlier, try to have it finished by 15:00, and make sure to transfer workers over there.
TvZ game
VoD: http://www.twitch.tv/blazinghand/b/294953669 Part 2
Notes:
TvZ game
Start bunkers a little earlier
good roach-ling defense
at about 12:00 try to have started your CC so you can take a third before your main is mined out, earlier is better.
It's really really important to take a 3rd.
If your'e having trouble spending minerals, but are out of gas, 3 good ways:
Engineering bays and barracks - lets you get turrets, upgrades, more marines, you don't an addon on every barracks, you can use it to jsut spend minerals
expansions - good money sink, gets you more money later-- it's like being in the stock market, except without the crappy crashes
supply depots-- getting ahead on these is good.
Set rally points on all your facilities together, or stuff will get left behind
Against mutas, repair turrets to keep them alive
forgot marine shields.
when he counter attacks, do something with your attacking army
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Hey guys I just hit masters.. Doing just one build per matchup as suggested by another thread and yes it works
TvT - Banshee expand
TvZ - mech/bio timing attack
TvP - 2 Rax expo
So I think I mastered these builds already, I'm trying to look for new openers that I can use with each of the races as I am thinking of joining tournaments in the future and in a Bo7 I just can't do one build xD
Like I know 1 rax expo is good but on which matchup and map is it good for? I'm just confused right now. Thanks guys hope to see good responses!
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Is 1rax FE viable TvT? How do I do it? What about Cloak Banshee or tank timings? It always seems so "hit or miss" if you try it.. I get shat on by cloakshees and if I go gasless 1rax FE with turrets at minerals I'm dying from every other tech build. Should I just forgetaboutit?
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On September 13 2011 20:25 Cibron wrote:
Is 1rax FE viable TvT? How do I do it? What about Cloak Banshee or tank timings? It always seems so "hit or miss" if you try it.. I get shat on by cloakshees and if I go gasless 1rax FE with turrets at minerals I'm dying from every other tech build. Should I just forgetaboutit?
I'd say it's viable, but what is your follow up? Personally I do have issues with early tanks with my TvT builds (most likely because they're all FE builds - I hate being on one base...), but banshees shouldn't be a problem with 2 orbitals and a viking or with turrets + marines - but you really have to scout what he's doing and react properly to it.
I'm considering forcing myself to play a safer build though, since as said, it can be pretty "hit or miss". Problem is, I don't really know what that is, since siege tanks are so damned good early on (owns both marines and hellions) and I feel like opening with siege tanks yourself is too gas intense that early on and doesn't let you get much infrastructure up, at least not for mech play...
Requesting replays of safe but still fairly early expansion builds for TvT...
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On September 13 2011 20:25 Cibron wrote:
Is 1rax FE viable TvT? How do I do it? What about Cloak Banshee or tank timings? It always seems so "hit or miss" if you try it.. I get shat on by cloakshees and if I go gasless 1rax FE with turrets at minerals I'm dying from every other tech build. Should I just forgetaboutit?
1 rax no-gas FE is probably map dependent. On short rush distance maps or 2-spawn maps like Xel'Naga Caverns, or maps with the possibility of really short rush distance either by ground or air, like Shattered Temple, I wouldn't risk it-- you have less time to catch up in tech via rush distance / defender's advantage. I'd go for a 1 rax with-gas FE-- start your gas as you're banking 300 minerals, and it'll finish just as you slap down your FE. It won't delay it that much but your factory or stim or whatever will be way faster.
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Ugh, taking a 5th/6th/7th against a muta/ling/bling + hive tech zerg is pretty tough, especially on Tal Darim, lol. I guess I'll just try to time each expansion with a push/drops or something, that's what I do for my nat/3rd/4th...
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On September 14 2011 05:45 Maxie wrote:
Ugh, taking a 5th/6th/7th against a muta/ling/bling + hive tech zerg is pretty tough, especially on Tal Darim, lol. I guess I'll just try to time each expansion with a push/drops or something, that's what I do for my nat/3rd/4th...
Tal'darim altar is a uniquely large and difficult-to-defend-your-expos kind of map. As a general rule, everything except your natural and main shoudl be p forts, and you want turrets with "Building Armor" and "Hi-Sec Auto Tracking" to protect these far-away expos (if you're unlucky enough to spawn Cross). Take your third "towards" your opponent whenever possible so that your push protects it.
Useful trick/tip: sieging up down-cliff from the your opponent's natural lets you shoot into it and also shoot the hatchery, putting a lot of pressure on him, and halting his income. Your first tank push should normally aim to do this. Medivacs will provide sight up the cliff. You see this in TvT as well.
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On September 14 2011 05:53 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 05:45 Maxie wrote:
Ugh, taking a 5th/6th/7th against a muta/ling/bling + hive tech zerg is pretty tough, especially on Tal Darim, lol. I guess I'll just try to time each expansion with a push/drops or something, that's what I do for my nat/3rd/4th... Tal'darim altar is a uniquely large and difficult-to-defend-your-expos kind of map. As a general rule, everything except your natural and main shoudl be p forts, and you want turrets with "Building Armor" and "Hi-Sec Auto Tracking" to protect these far-away expos (if you're unlucky enough to spawn Cross). Take your third "towards" your opponent whenever possible so that your push protects it. Useful trick/tip: sieging up down-cliff from the your opponent's natural lets you shoot into it and also shoot the hatchery, putting a lot of pressure on him, and halting his income. Your first tank push should normally aim to do this. Medivacs will provide sight up the cliff. You see this in TvT as well.
Ah, I love doing that, especially with a floating barracks if I dont have medivacs yet . And yeah it was cross positions, taking a third isn't very hard, it's when you have to start taking bases at the places your enemy could have spawned at (and their naturals/thirds, with the damned rocks) that it gets really annoying.
Good point about the building upgrades, though I was so mined out at the time that I could barely afford putting up turrets. First TvZ that goes on for that long on that map for me, a long TvP is far more enjoyable there since you're actually decently mobile against a not so mobile opponent (though random pylons warping in zealots can be annoying).
But yeah I generally make my third and any further expansions into PF in TvZ.
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