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On September 14 2011 07:31 Asha` wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 07:12 StaticMilk wrote:On September 14 2011 06:58 XiGua wrote:On September 14 2011 06:51 StaticMilk wrote:
I'm a mid master's Terran. Just wondering how best you deal with proxy 2 gate cheeses(assuming I miss the gates) either slightly outside the main or inside. I usually open 1 rax maurader FE.
It's only happened a few times but I miss the proxy gates and there are zealots inside my main pretty quickly. What's the best response to this? It' the equivalent of having zerglings from a 6 pool in your base. Go for a bunker fast and try to stack your scvs to do some burst damage on the zealots. If you get the bunker up defending your mineral line, then you should be fine. But he could contain you and start going for some other cheese, be ready for everything and since you miss the proxy gates I assume that you don't scout before your rax is built? I always scout on 10 right after I start building my depot, it saves me from these kinds of cheeses! I uploaded the replay in hopes of providing more information. I actually scout after depot but as you can see, there's no way I'm seeing that cheese. This is why I always build my first depot at least somewhere near my ramp even if I'm not walling, better chance of catching someone trying to sneak a probe in TT Doesn't hurt to be a little paranoid and path the scv you want to build your second depot with around the outskirts of your base a bit if you've not seen a probe either. Maybe I've just not watched enough cheesy protoss, but there's something incredibly suspicious about a replay where his camera remains fixed on your base the whole game lol =p Bad luck to get a maphacking Protoss. Good VOD of Marineking holding off an unscouted 2x proxy gate vs Ace while going for 1rax expo http://www.gomtv.net/2011super1/vod/65483(it's free, game starts about 7mins :: note Ace sends out a probe to both sides of the map and checks whether any minerals have been mined to determine MKP's location, your cheesy bastard didn't do that ¬_¬)
Thanks for the help and the VOD. I reported him. I didn't realize there was a hacker database for starcraft 2.
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On September 14 2011 06:51 StaticMilk wrote:I'm a mid master's Terran. Just wondering how best you deal with proxy 2 gate cheeses(assuming I miss the gates) either slightly outside the main or inside. I usually open 1 rax maurader FE. It's only happened a few times but I miss the proxy gates and there are zealots inside my main pretty quickly. What's the best response to this? Edit: On a side note, are there hacks for SC2 right now? I know this might be in the wrong place but I just checked the replay for the game and watched the game from his cam. Proxy gated on shattered temple in the corner of my main without ever seeing one of my units or buildings. His past 5 games have all been proxy 2 gates. Replay here on my smurf account: ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-231439.jpg)
Cannot believe this guy is still around. My friend and I reported him because he proxy 2 gated both of us without scouting and was OBVIOUSLY maphacking when I played only Zerg back in Diamond league. This guy should have been banned a while ago.
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On September 15 2011 00:37 crocodile wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 06:51 StaticMilk wrote:I'm a mid master's Terran. Just wondering how best you deal with proxy 2 gate cheeses(assuming I miss the gates) either slightly outside the main or inside. I usually open 1 rax maurader FE. It's only happened a few times but I miss the proxy gates and there are zealots inside my main pretty quickly. What's the best response to this? Edit: On a side note, are there hacks for SC2 right now? I know this might be in the wrong place but I just checked the replay for the game and watched the game from his cam. Proxy gated on shattered temple in the corner of my main without ever seeing one of my units or buildings. His past 5 games have all been proxy 2 gates. Replay here on my smurf account: Cannot believe this guy is still around. My friend and I reported him because he proxy 2 gated both of us without scouting and was OBVIOUSLY maphacking when I played only Zerg back in Diamond league. This guy should have been banned a while ago.
Just for my own knowledge. How do you know what his past games looked like? Did you conclude this based on the time of the game (length)?
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On September 15 2011 00:15 Asha` wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 22:40 TheDurl wrote:On September 14 2011 21:56 KenDM wrote:On September 14 2011 18:53 TheDurl wrote:
What, in your opinion, is the best way to counter zealot + archon? Against Archons (strong shields) it might be wise to ise EMP's if you can handle that. Otherwise try to beat them with thors. Siege tanks are also nice, but chargelots will take care of those. Archons also do +1 damage to bio, + they have splash. So I guess Hellion/Thors. I know Thors are late, but so should Archons be late as well. Blazinghand any comments? I would think that Thors DPS is too slow for a mass of chargelots would a spread of mass marines/ghosts be effective? combined with the low cost of marines and the emps of ghost along with the high dps i would see that slightly better. but thats my opinion im open for any other suggestions. Bio is fine vs Zealot/Archon as long as you have ghost support. If you land your emp's well you'll be in great shape. Prioritise EMP's on the Archons since they'll melt them and without the splash damage things become a hell of a lot less scary. Do try and get an EMP on the chargelots before they come in though so you catch them while clumped and not staggered out by the charge, and then you should handle them pretty easily while kiting back.
Thors dealing a lot of DPS, and it's not mitigated by chargelots being light. Thors still aren't great though. Problems with thors that made them non-viable against chargelots:
1) Overkill. A thor vs a chargelot overkills it by about 30 damage, wasting half a volley every 3 volleys, or about 17% of the thor's damage output
2) Slowness. The easiest way to limit the damage output of the chargelot is by run-shoot-running. Stimmed marines and marauders, as well as Blue Flame Hellions, take hits more slowly from chargelots while kiting them. Thors are a lot of things, but "nimble" isn't one of them. Probably the only unit a Thor can kite would be a lifted terran building, or maybe a slowverlord.
Marines/marauders/medivac is actually totally fine against chargelot/archon, in small numbers. Once there's more than 1 archon, though, you need splash to fight his splash: Ghosts. you want 1 emp to hit the chargelots, then just carpet emp on the archons until they're out of shields. Also EMP any caster units you see of course. You'll probably want more marauders than marines in this situation because the Protoss will probably be getting HTs.
On September 14 2011 23:03 KenDM wrote:
What about a quick split hellion drop? One in the main, one in the natural? Any other tactics to quickly destroy a natural while doing a drop in the main? Advise to keep the drop alive and retreat or to sacrifice them? What stalls your opponent the longest?
I can't find what this is in reference to, but in general, try to keep your drops alive. As long as you still have a dropship full of marines, the protoss is going to be afraid. Against opponents without air-to-air units (this is usually protoss), leave your dropships in his airspace, where it can't be targeted by his ground units. Wait for him to go do something else, then re-drop him. And if he leaves a bunch of stuff in his main, that's good-- it means he can't attack you. It's sort of like being a zerg player with a bunch of mutalisks and terran needs to leave marines in his main.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/HmOS4.png)
This is doable with hellions, but it's more likely he'll try to make a cannon then go attack. You want your opponent to think "If I move out, I'm going to lose a bunch of probes" until you're safe / have your third base, etc.
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On September 15 2011 01:15 KenDM wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 00:37 crocodile wrote:On September 14 2011 06:51 StaticMilk wrote:I'm a mid master's Terran. Just wondering how best you deal with proxy 2 gate cheeses(assuming I miss the gates) either slightly outside the main or inside. I usually open 1 rax maurader FE. It's only happened a few times but I miss the proxy gates and there are zealots inside my main pretty quickly. What's the best response to this? Edit: On a side note, are there hacks for SC2 right now? I know this might be in the wrong place but I just checked the replay for the game and watched the game from his cam. Proxy gated on shattered temple in the corner of my main without ever seeing one of my units or buildings. His past 5 games have all been proxy 2 gates. Replay here on my smurf account: Cannot believe this guy is still around. My friend and I reported him because he proxy 2 gated both of us without scouting and was OBVIOUSLY maphacking when I played only Zerg back in Diamond league. This guy should have been banned a while ago. Just for my own knowledge. How do you know what his past games looked like? Did you conclude this based on the time of the game (length)?
Checked his match history and looked at his build order for his most recent games. Each one showed proxy 2 gate.
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Interesting new problem: ending up with 110 scvs and barely any army. I guess that constant scv production finally came back to bite me in the ass. Any tips for knowing when to stop producing scvs? I guess "when you have 2,5-3 fully saturated bases" is a decent answer...
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On September 15 2011 03:37 Maxie wrote:
Interesting new problem: ending up with 110 scvs and barely any army. I guess that constant scv production finally came back to bite me in the ass. Any tips for knowing when to stop producing scvs? I guess "when you have 2,5-3 fully saturated bases" is a decent answer...
Yeah, ideally you want like 90 scvs.
Eventually (this usually happens to me in TvT) you want to start making extra orbital commands and suiciding groups of 6-8 scvs-- Since once you're maxed, you're basically spending 550 for an orbital to have constant mule calldown to replace scvs. this lets you get an "extra supply depot" worth of units, since mules don't take food, and the scvs you suicided do. Make sure you keep around enough scvs for gas income though, as well as enough to repair units, make production facilities, etc. I'd probably try to over time (in the late late game) reduce my scv count from 90 to about 40 in TvT.
That's super late late game though.
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Speaking of TvT, I'd HIGHLY appreciate if you could provide a few replays of "safe" TvT openers, I'm sorry if it's asking too much but as you've noticed I have a thing for losing to early tank pushes... I guess I'm just too greedy, don't like staying on 1 base for long...
And yeah I know about the orbital farms, haven't attempted it myself though. 90 scvs does sound a little high to me though, I just had a 2v2 (yes, 2v2) where I had 90 scvs and felt like I didn't have any army at all, haha.
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3 fully saturated bases is:
24 SCVs per mineral line x3 = 72
3 SCVs per geyser x6 = 18
Total : 90
Easy trick to see if a base is saturated?
Ctrl-click any SCV (select all), you should see 3 full rows of SCVs (24) and about 4 SCVs on the 4th row (2nd page) any more means excess SCVs. Likewise remove 3 SCVs for every mineral patch depleted.
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On September 15 2011 03:53 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
3 fully saturated bases is:
24 SCVs per mineral line x3 = 72
3 SCVs per geyser x6 = 18
Total : 90
Easy trick to see if a base is saturated?
Ctrl-click any SCV (select all), you should see 3 full rows of SCVs (24) and about 4 SCVs on the 4th row (2nd page) any more means excess SCVs. Likewise remove 3 SCVs for every mineral patch depleted.
It's a bit more complicated than that. Not because it's hard to count, but it's hard to "keep track" of mineral patches.
By the time you've fully saturated your third, your main will already be on its last legs (possibly even before this if your third is delayed) in which case you need to start a 4rth soon to give the scvs in your main something worth mining.
Realistically, you want 2 rows + extra of scvs per mineral line spread across 3 1/2 to 4 bases.
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Blazinghand. What can I do in a TvT match when it gets stretched and boring? I can't think of anything. Just making PF's and for a better economy. I eventually stopped playing because I was maxed out in upgrades, full army, turrets everywhere, bases enough. I had a MMM tank combo, same for him, but he had vikings, so making BC's was out of the question. It's just such a hassle you know. Even my ghosts died because of his turrets and tank combo... Any tips?
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On September 15 2011 04:34 KenDM wrote:
Blazinghand. What can I do in a TvT match when it gets stretched and boring? I can't think of anything. Just making PF's and for a better economy. I eventually stopped playing because I was maxed out in upgrades, full army, turrets everywhere, bases enough. I had a MMM tank combo, same for him, but he had vikings, so making BC's was out of the question. It's just such a hassle you know. Even my ghosts died because of his turrets and tank combo... Any tips?
When TvT goes to the late-late game (every base taken, tanks, turrets and sensor towers preventing frontal assaults), you have three major paths to victory: attrition, aggressive attrition and busting.
Waiting Game: Attrition
This is what I use, and it's somewhat common. Your goal in this one is to be resource-efficient in every trade. The idea is, eventually each of you will have mined out half of the map, and whoever still has an army left after army trading and spending of trust funds is the winner.
Key points here: Upgrades are efficient. Bio is inefficient against sieged-up tanks, but effecient against unprotected structures and mineral lines. Nukes are effecient. Mech and air are effecient. Statics are effecient. Any opportunity to trade energy for resources is efficient (snipe, seeker missile, auto-turrets, yamato cannon).
Contain: Aggressive Attrition
This is the same as Attrition, except that you try to deny or mine out something from your opponent's half of the map. This is the default of 3-player maps which cannot be divided in half. By denying him one base or "containing" him to, say, 6 bases to your 8, in the long run he will run out of resources to make army before you. This forces him to use a bust strategy because he cannot win an attrition war without ENORMOUS efficiency advantages that are nigh-impossible; so be ready to defend his bust.
Easy Way Out: Busting
This is the most commonly-seen strategy on ladder. Mech units (tanks, thors, air units in particular) rebuild very slowly, and need to be in large numbers to be effective. Their production facilities are expensive and physically large, and the units themselves are slow to rally and set up, and need a lot of space to do so. Busting takes advantage of all of these characteristics. The goal is to reduce your opponent's army size, and possibly also production suddenly, and attack before he can rebuild. Common ways to bust:
Yamato Cannon: Hold onto air control. Make 4-5 battlecruisers, and outfit them with yamato cannon. Each battlecruiser generates about 0.5 energy per second, which means with 5 of them you're getting about 2 energy per second, enough to yamato every minute. Your goal is to use yamato to force the tank/turret line back. Use vikings to guard your tanks, and press forward with your own tank/turret line until you're inside his base 
Nuke: Calldown several missiles at various hardpoints around the map. The range of a nuke to 1-shot a tank is relatively short, but the range of a nuke to 2-shot a tank is very large-- you can do this from outside of tank range easily. Advance your tanklines until he's dead.
Doom Drop: Take whatever combination of units you think is good, combine with ravens or BCs to distract the turrets, and drop him in the main. Aim for his production facilities, and try to force army trades as much as possible during this time so that you can rebuild and he can't. Eventually he won't be able to hold on due to reduced production.
There are various other methods using seeker missile launched at your own cloaked banshees, forcing viking fights and doing seeker missiles, or any combination of these for busting. Furthermore, these tricks are all viable during attrition fights as well-- especially the Yamato cannon one, since that's trading energy for resources. Most of these require air control to use.
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Wow. Lategame is really micro-intensive! Do you have illustrative replays? By the way I saw your tutorial videos and they were great, thanks so much!
Question: why seeker missile my own banshees? I read on another forum that people even EMP their own banshees/medivacs, what's the purpose of that?
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On September 15 2011 03:53 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
3 fully saturated bases is:
24 SCVs per mineral line x3 = 72
3 SCVs per geyser x6 = 18
Total : 90
Easy trick to see if a base is saturated?
Ctrl-click any SCV (select all), you should see 3 full rows of SCVs (24) and about 4 SCVs on the 4th row (2nd page) any more means excess SCVs. Likewise remove 3 SCVs for every mineral patch depleted.
You basically want around 60 scvs since you don't need full saturation due to mules. Sure you get extra income but the most supply tends to be better.
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On September 15 2011 05:42 KenDM wrote:
Wow. Lategame is really micro-intensive! Do you have illustrative replays? By the way I saw your tutorial videos and they were great, thanks so much!
Question: why seeker missile my own banshees? I read on another forum that people even EMP their own banshees/medivacs, what's the purpose of that?
Ok so the seeker missile banshee trick works like this:
Cloak a banshee, and fly it past your raven towards the enemy. As it passes the raven, have the raven seeker-missile the banshee. The missile follows the banshee into enemy territory. Stop the banshee over a clump of enemy units, and the seeker missile collides with it, dealing big splash damage. Then, fly the banshee home. This is pretty situational; and against opponents with turrets, they'll kill the banshee and the missile will hit wherever the banshee was when it died.
People EMP their own units sometimes to avoid getting damaged by feedback or in TvP. Personally, though, I think it's more efficient to toggle cloak a couple times on the banshees and then stim my bio and have the medivacs heal it back up to lower energy, so as not to waste an EMP.
I'm not at my gaming computer atm, which has all my replays. I'll upload something later today.
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On September 15 2011 05:51 Blazinghand wrote:
I'm not at my gaming computer atm, which has all my replays. I'll upload something later today.
May I request a replay or two of a "safe" TvT opener that isn't 1base for too long? It might go hand in hand with his request, if I'm lucky.
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Is there anywhere an extensive build order/guide to BF hellion play in TvZ and TvT?
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On September 15 2011 05:42 KenDM wrote:
Wow. Lategame is really micro-intensive! Do you have illustrative replays? By the way I saw your tutorial videos and they were great, thanks so much!
On September 15 2011 06:19 Maxie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 05:51 Blazinghand wrote:
I'm not at my gaming computer atm, which has all my replays. I'll upload something later today. May I request a replay or two of a "safe" TvT opener that isn't 1base for too long? It might go hand in hand with his request, if I'm lucky.
Sure! Here is one game that shows a good opening, and another that shows a good attrition-style play.
This game showcases "Aggressive Attrition" style late-game TvT, in which you attempt to mine or deny of your opponent's bases, then wait until he runs out of resources, preparing for and defending the inevitable all-in.
Blazinghand vs Fox Master TvT
I use tank positioning to secure expos on his side of the map and deny his gold. I use air units to tighten the noose until he is forced to all-in me. I am well-prepared.
Grade: B-, due to effective strategic execution, poor crisis management and anti-harass.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-231581.jpg)
This game shows my favorite Fast Expand, the 1 rax non-gasless fast expand. This doesn't put you as far behind on tech, but is only for use on larger maps and when you're sure your opponent did not spawn nearby.
Blazinghand vs BluE Master TvT
This game demonstrates a 1 rax 1 gas FE, which I think is safe on large maps like Backwater Gulch. I use full mech to defend against bio map control play.
Grade: B, due to effective fast expand and harass, ineffective assertion of map presence.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-231583.jpg)
Hope this helps.
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I'm not on my own computer so I can't watch the replay yet, but I can't wait to have a look at it. Anyway, yesterday was a bad day for meemseeing as how I lost two games. One was very long (TvT lategame) and one was Over quite fast because of a DT drop in my base, sucks hard, I wish they had to tech to cloak for DT's, he came in just as I used my scans and I didn't see his shrine which sucks for me. I really need to get a sense of tactical timings because I just now remember that I didn't play two but tree games. The first was over so fast that I forgot: 6 reaper rush. All my SCV's gone, my marines were also kited to death. I can post my replay if you'd like, but I can imagine you don't really need more info than me being an inefficient scout. Do you know some way for me to get out of these rush tactics? I thought I wqs safe, but damn those DT's and damn those reapers. I'm just like Total Biscuit: "Fuck muta's and all they stand for", "fuck DT's" and "fuck reapers"...
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How many Terrans have experimented with a 'sky Terran' style? This sounds like a really interesting concept that could be very effective aside from having similar vulnerabilities to mech play. This is a style I really want to try out sometime.
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