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On June 03 2012 03:40 MerlinTTU wrote:
TVZ mech.. Wondering if these transistions are viable at higher levels..
I open 1 rax FE into double factory--> blue flame.
Then as soon as Blue flame has begun research I start a starport.
I poke with the first 3-4 hellions and mass up to 8-10 ish untill blue flame is done.
(assuming no allin) With the poke I determine if I should put a tech lab on the starport or just make a medivac. If they are fast third I just attack on the ground and start bansee + cloak.
If they are two base I will set up a drop with the medivac. And hit main and nat simultaneously. My thoughts being if they are two base ,banshee play will probably be hard to make succsesful.
before this attack moves out I throw down a enginerring bay + armory and go up to 3 facs.
Is it feasable to try and get blueflame into banshee? or will this just delay my thors/ups to much. At this current level ~ mid plat mmr it crushes people.. but this probably doesnt mean anything
I've never done it, but it just seems like such a late cloak that it would hardly be worth it. If you wanna go cloak banshees you need to get starport after fac, not after 2 facs and blueflame. Plus you might have a hard time dealing with all-ins.
Personally, after 2fac, I usually throw down a 3rd and start siege tech so that I can survive any early all-ins and have a nice econ going behind it, while still having a hellion presence.
Also, if you don't scout a fast third after you went 1rax FE you need to be very suspicious of an all-in, so I wouldn't do any harass at all at that point. If he's on 2base and you're on 2base you don't need to be greedy and harass, since you're already ahead. Instead just prepare for whatever 2base all-in is coming (or possibly mutas into a 3rd).
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When should one start scanning for / getting worried about broodlords in TvZ? 14 minutes?
Thx!
I usually just scan for when hive is being made and then when the spire is morphing. 14 minutes is pretty early broods. I'd expect them around 15-16 or so mins. but it varies.
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Hi there,
I was kind of inactive cause of diablo 3 (what a disappointing game btw) what ever... I lost a bit track of the actual TvZ. So I would like to get a bit of input about the TvZ after the queen range buff.
How did the openings change? How do terrans apply pressure to the zerg in the early / early-midgame to manage the drone count? Are hellions played anymore?
That's it for now... hope for some insight 
thank you all
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On June 03 2012 19:43 EuSpex wrote:Hi there, I was kind of inactive cause of diablo 3 (what a disappointing game btw) what ever... I lost a bit track of the actual TvZ. So I would like to get a bit of input about the TvZ after the queen range buff. How did the openings change? How do terrans apply pressure to the zerg in the early / early-midgame to manage the drone count? Are hellions played anymore? That's it for now... hope for some insight thank you all
I've found with the last week of laddering in TvZ is that most zergs tend to go with infestor style builds rather than mutalisk builds. Heavy upgrades on the zerglings and infestors makes a very powerful army mid-late game for zerg. Hellions work against this only if they are a surprise, because zerg can easily transition to roaches. Late game, however, the zerg is very powerful as they typically get brood lords. In TvZ, the earlier you kill the zerg the better, but if you do ever get into a late game situation, ghosts are a good counter against all the late game zerg tech.
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On June 03 2012 19:43 EuSpex wrote:Hi there, I was kind of inactive cause of diablo 3 (what a disappointing game btw) what ever... I lost a bit track of the actual TvZ. So I would like to get a bit of input about the TvZ after the queen range buff. How did the openings change? How do terrans apply pressure to the zerg in the early / early-midgame to manage the drone count? Are hellions played anymore? That's it for now... hope for some insight thank you all
Most Zergs now favor fast thirds and queen heavy (5+) openings into ling/infestor.
Many Terrans now gasless FE into fast double gas and supplement their hellions with banshees, both to help protect against roach pressure and to more effectively pressure against new queens. Some are experimenting with adding a single raven to help clear creep with detection and use PDD against queens since they already have a tlab starport.
Due to the effectiveness of 3 base ling/infestor against 2 base marine/tank, 2 base bio pressure, fast thirds, and fast double upgrades are becoming more popular.
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http://drop.sc/190638
This is pretty much how every tvp game I play end up if its too long, could use some feedback! terran help me thread, you are my only hope
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On June 03 2012 21:57 SKDN wrote:http://drop.sc/190638This is pretty much how every tvp game I play end up if its too long, could use some feedback! terran help me thread, you are my only hope
First of all,
Welcome to Terran! We don't see many new players these days, but it's great to see some players trying Terran out.
Secondly, make sure you create some good hotkeys. Generally speaking, it's good to leave 1-3 open for army, since at the very minimum you will need these 3 groups to distinguish Bio, Ghosts and Vikings, since each have unique abilities and utility. More astute players will also bind medivacs separately from Bio so that your medivacs heal as they move, as opposed to moving with your Bio and not healing your troops. Drops can also be bound to a hotkey. (Note, you can get a drop ship to drop all of its cargo as it moves by right clicking "d" on the medivac itself")
Thirdly, go to "Marine Splitting" in custom games. Micro is a necessary condition for Terran to do well. However, it is not sufficient for Terran to win (do not conflate necessity and sufficiency!) Not only against Zerg (banelings), but also against Protoss (high templar). Once again there is some overlap here since well-bound hotkeys permit you to effectively move and engage with your army.
Fourth, look through some build orders on Liquipedia (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/1_Rax_FE_(vs._Protoss) and watch some replays Liquid Taeja Replays of how these build orders function as the game goes on and how they may change based on what a player scouts. In my opinion, a big difference between Zerg & Terran is that Zerg tends to be more cerebral. Zerg seems to be more fliud and it's less important to hit set timings. Terran, on the other hand, is quite rigid and it's paramount that you have air-tight builds that hit at defined times. Master the builds from the replays and understand the nuances. Don't worry about knowing every eventuality perfectly--as you play, you will learn why a build is strong, and what typical reactions you will face.
It may also help to write down the Supply at which you make a building and the time at which that building is built on a piece of paper
(i.e. 16 Factory 3:04)
Then when you watch the replay again, note certain Protoss timings for warp gate based on their build (Nexus first variants, 1 gate FE variants, etc.)
Pay attention to the small things like clicking on their gas to have an idea what build they are going for. If you are ever surprised or caught off-guard, watch the replay, check this gas timings and amounts and make a mental note for next time! I'm not a great player but was able to reach rank 1 master using these ideas 
Hope this helps! And welcome to Terran!
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On June 03 2012 15:24 jabberjaw wrote:Show nested quote +When should one start scanning for / getting worried about broodlords in TvZ? 14 minutes?
Thx! I usually just scan for when hive is being made and then when the spire is morphing. 14 minutes is pretty early broods. I'd expect them around 15-16 or so mins. but it varies.
I agree that 15-16 minutes is a more common time to see broodlord tech happening. If you see your opponent making a lot of mutalisks or a lot of infestors (less common) that will delay his hive tech a bit. If he's going mostly mineral heavy and getting double upgrades, he'll probably go for a quicker hive so he can hit 3/3, and he'll be able to afford it if he's not making as many gas units.
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Okay, am i the only one that feels like lategame tvz is ridiculously hard?
Like... infestors and a handful of corruptors wreck vikings, thors get stuck behind broodlings.... It just feels really silly to try and kill a zerg who is competent at controlling his infestors, because once the infestors get their spells down they just kinda a-move over everything else.....
I think i've only won like 2 of my last 10 tvz's and only 1 where the guy had blords, and that was when he didn't have any infestors...
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On June 04 2012 11:08 GTPGlitch wrote:
Okay, am i the only one that feels like lategame tvz is ridiculously hard?
Like... infestors and a handful of corruptors wreck vikings, thors get stuck behind broodlings.... It just feels really silly to try and kill a zerg who is competent at controlling his infestors, because once the infestors get their spells down they just kinda a-move over everything else.....
I think i've only won like 2 of my last 10 tvz's and only 1 where the guy had blords, and that was when he didn't have any infestors...
No sir, I am having a lot of trouble TvZ in general. My EPM sits right around 150, I can play a bio-centric style as well as mechanical, and I am struggling with both.
They mass roach really hard so my hellion/thor are completely useless and turtle up when I go mech.
My drops have been more and more useless as time goes on, they are easily catching them as I pressure the third they have stuff sitting back to defend my drops. Plus with this increased queen range my hellions get screwed on creep and my medivacs hit from forever away.
I am simply stumped. I feel as if I need to put on early pressure, but I cannot find the right build. I've done 2 base marine/med/tank all ins, I've done early hellions, I've done cloaked banshees, but NOTHING is working. I cannot win this match up anymore.
The EPM required at the diamond/low masters level is much greater for terran which is so frustrating.
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The only way to win lategame TvZ, in my opinion, is get to a point where you can sacrifice workers and have a lot of ravens. This way your army will be bigger than his at any given point, which means you can more easily deal with techswitches and straight up fights, and ravens make your engagements as cost-efficient as possible.
Honestly, I just play incredibly passive/defensive all game in TvZ. I just had a 50 minute TvZ vs some 1500 master and I didn't attack once. Between tech switches and creep, I don't see the point in attacking. Rather, just try defending and having cost-efficient battles until finally you have a strong raven count and few workers. Not until then would I ever be aggressive.
Sensor towers, turret-rings, PFs at chokes etc. etc. Really, really passive play. Of course, it isn't easy, not for one second. but it's given me the best TvZ results in a long time, and more importantly stable results. Too often before I felt like whatever early-midgame harass/push I did would more or less decide the game. With this I feel like I can theoretically win any game. I personally really enjoy this playstyle, but I imagine a lot of people would hate it.
This is mech, though. I can't really speak for bio play.
Edit: As far as openers go, I enjoy fast 3rd builds but also throw in some 2port after 1rax FE.
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On June 03 2012 19:43 EuSpex wrote:Hi there, I was kind of inactive cause of diablo 3 (what a disappointing game btw) what ever... I lost a bit track of the actual TvZ. So I would like to get a bit of input about the TvZ after the queen range buff. How did the openings change? How do terrans apply pressure to the zerg in the early / early-midgame to manage the drone count? Are hellions played anymore? That's it for now... hope for some insight thank you all
So most of the time you can still use reactor hellion openings if you want to, but that's just for managing creep spread and map control, your like never gonna pick off queens/drones anymore. A lot of the times people just seem to go gasless 1 rax FE into bio push... I still go reactor hellion so im not sure how the latter works. All zergs go ling infestor nowadays, so watch out for that!
hope this helped
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Is the patrol command still the most used way of splitting marines vs banelings? I just saw some videos of MKP etc and it seems to me they simply used move command instead of patrol...? Could someone who knows about this please tell me if it is better using patrol vs move?
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On June 04 2012 14:54 dynwar7 wrote:
Is the patrol command still the most used way of splitting marines vs banelings? I just saw some videos of MKP etc and it seems to me they simply used move command instead of patrol...? Could someone who knows about this please tell me if it is better using patrol vs move?
Always better to use move command. Patrol is too limited in it's ideal scenarios, and it just plain doesn't work when dealing with Mutaling.
Pre-Splits are better than On-the-fly splitting, especially with Infestors involved.
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On June 04 2012 11:19 analyze wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2012 11:08 GTPGlitch wrote:
Okay, am i the only one that feels like lategame tvz is ridiculously hard?
Like... infestors and a handful of corruptors wreck vikings, thors get stuck behind broodlings.... It just feels really silly to try and kill a zerg who is competent at controlling his infestors, because once the infestors get their spells down they just kinda a-move over everything else.....
I think i've only won like 2 of my last 10 tvz's and only 1 where the guy had blords, and that was when he didn't have any infestors... No sir, I am having a lot of trouble TvZ in general. My EPM sits right around 150, I can play a bio-centric style as well as mechanical, and I am struggling with both. They mass roach really hard so my hellion/thor are completely useless and turtle up when I go mech My drops have been more and more useless as time goes on, they are easily catching them as I pressure the third they have stuff sitting back to defend my drops. Plus with this increased queen range my hellions get screwed on creep and my medivacs hit from forever away. I am simply stumped. I feel as if I need to put on early pressure, but I cannot find the right build. I've done 2 base marine/med/tank all ins, I've done early hellions, I've done cloaked banshees, but NOTHING is working. I cannot win this match up anymore. The EPM required at the diamond/low masters level is much greater for terran which is so frustrating.
To both of you: while we all realize that at.dia to gm level zerg and toss require almost no mechanics compared to what is expected from terran, the purpose of this thread is to help terran players cope with that, not offer sympathy about how imba X is.
As a high masters terran I think I won roughly 5 out of my last 30 vZ matches and all time it was either proxy rax or six rax. So my advice to you based on my experience is to exploit the generally bad micro of zergs and just end the game as soon as possible. Just my two cents.
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On June 04 2012 12:15 Starshaped wrote:
The only way to win lategame TvZ, in my opinion, is get to a point where you can sacrifice workers and have a lot of ravens. This way your army will be bigger than his at any given point, which means you can more easily deal with techswitches and straight up fights, and ravens make your engagements as cost-efficient as possible.
Honestly, I just play incredibly passive/defensive all game in TvZ. I just had a 50 minute TvZ vs some 1500 master and I didn't attack once. Between tech switches and creep, I don't see the point in attacking. Rather, just try defending and having cost-efficient battles until finally you have a strong raven count and few workers. Not until then would I ever be aggressive.
Sensor towers, turret-rings, PFs at chokes etc. etc. Really, really passive play. Of course, it isn't easy, not for one second. but it's given me the best TvZ results in a long time, and more importantly stable results. Too often before I felt like whatever early-midgame harass/push I did would more or less decide the game. With this I feel like I can theoretically win any game. I personally really enjoy this playstyle, but I imagine a lot of people would hate it.
This is mech, though. I can't really speak for bio play.
Edit: As far as openers go, I enjoy fast 3rd builds but also throw in some 2port after 1rax FE.
I agree with this, I play mech TvZ as it transitions into raven lategame so nicely.
I feel playing a more bio based style leads better into ghosts but with the ghost snipe nerf against broods and ultras combined with my horrible marine micro I'd personally rather go mech ---> ravens.
i do the 1 rax fe to double gas (reactor hellions and cloak banshees) of this guide http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=308972
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Speaking of ultra pssive play, do you think this style is viable against protoss as well going into bio into ghost raven BC viking? An emphasis on scouting and defending would take some stress of TvP wouldn't it?
EDIT: Not viable, but worth pursuing at a mid to high masters level
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On June 04 2012 15:00 HeroMystic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2012 14:54 dynwar7 wrote:
Is the patrol command still the most used way of splitting marines vs banelings? I just saw some videos of MKP etc and it seems to me they simply used move command instead of patrol...? Could someone who knows about this please tell me if it is better using patrol vs move? Always better to use move command. Patrol is too limited in it's ideal scenarios, and it just plain doesn't work when dealing with Mutaling. Pre-Splits are better than On-the-fly splitting, especially with Infestors involved.
Thanks for this.
So, can any other terran confirm if patrol command is not the ideal way to go vs bling anymore? Manual box + move command is the best?
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Yeah, i´m also doing it that way and after doing it some time in the Marine Splitt Challange it really isn´t a big deal. Sure you will most likely not come up to the same level as with the patroll command, but you really don´t need to split that much. The most important thing is to focus fire the banelings with your tanks and then do some splitting if needed. With units comming from multiple sides it´s better to use the "manual" splitting, because if the units are in range of our units, they will stop moving.
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On June 04 2012 18:15 dynwar7 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2012 15:00 HeroMystic wrote:On June 04 2012 14:54 dynwar7 wrote:
Is the patrol command still the most used way of splitting marines vs banelings? I just saw some videos of MKP etc and it seems to me they simply used move command instead of patrol...? Could someone who knows about this please tell me if it is better using patrol vs move? Always better to use move command. Patrol is too limited in it's ideal scenarios, and it just plain doesn't work when dealing with Mutaling. Pre-Splits are better than On-the-fly splitting, especially with Infestors involved. Thanks for this. So, can any other terran confirm if patrol command is not the ideal way to go vs bling anymore? Manual box + move command is the best?
Patrol splitting is only good against pure baneling. If you patrol split against an army with zerglings or mutalisks as well, the marines will start attacking early and clump up.
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EPT
