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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
On September 07 2011 04:03 Sharor wrote:Hey all, first post so be gentle  What maps should I veto for 1v1? I vetoed Nezarim Crypt because I felt the map was uncomfortable, but it might have been because of my opponent. I later vetoed Searing Crator and Abyssal Caverns because of the same reasons. But I've improved some since then I feel, and would like to hear what other people veto. My favorite is The Shattered Temple, if that helps. Edit: I'd like the arguments, as to why a map is bad / good for terran. Also if it depends on style (Bio/Mech)
I think it really depends on your playstyle and which matchups you struggle with.
For a long time, The only map I banned was Typhon Peaks, and that was because I didn't like the possibly of spawning vertically in TvT (which only happens 1/9th of the time) due to the whole deal with rocks breaking down and the map dividing in half for the great Cold War. I don't think I've spawned vertically TvT on Typhon and not gone to battlecruisers ._. it's fun but it takes like 30+ minutes.
For some time I also banned Shakuras Plateau because I like 2-base timing attacks, and the natural is eminently defensible on that map.
In terms of maximizing winrate, I'd probably ban Tal'Darim Altar (due to the strength of certain PvT allins, and the difficulty of moving past 3-base play against zerg), Nerazim Crypt (layout of xel'naga towers and counter-attack paths favor zerg, whereas low-ground third and lack of airspace favor protoss, + the layout of the main allows warp prism sentry elevator shenanigans), and Abyssal Caverns (because I just hate that map).
Currently I ban Abyssal Caverns because of the weird map layout, and Searing Crater because of how retarded TvT can potentially be if he somehow sieges up your Nat.
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On September 08 2011 01:04 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 04:03 Sharor wrote:Hey all, first post so be gentle What maps should I veto for 1v1? I vetoed Nezarim Crypt because I felt the map was uncomfortable, but it might have been because of my opponent. I later vetoed Searing Crator and Abyssal Caverns because of the same reasons. But I've improved some since then I feel, and would like to hear what other people veto. My favorite is The Shattered Temple, if that helps. Edit: I'd like the arguments, as to why a map is bad / good for terran. Also if it depends on style (Bio/Mech) I think it really depends on your playstyle and which matchups you struggle with. For a long time, The only map I banned was Typhon Peaks, and that was because I didn't like the possibly of spawning vertically in TvT (which only happens 1/9th of the time) due to the whole deal with rocks breaking down and the map dividing in half for the great Cold War. I don't think I've spawned vertically TvT on Typhon and not gone to battlecruisers ._. it's fun but it takes like 30+ minutes. For some time I also banned Shakuras Plateau because I like 2-base timing attacks, and the natural is eminently defensible on that map. In terms of maximizing winrate, I'd probably ban Tal'Darim Altar (due to the strength of certain PvT allins, and the difficulty of moving past 3-base play against zerg), Nerazim Crypt (layout of xel'naga towers and counter-attack paths favor zerg, whereas low-ground third and lack of airspace favor protoss, + the layout of the main allows warp prism sentry elevator shenanigans), and Abyssal Caverns (because I just hate that map). Currently I ban Abyssal Caverns because of the weird map layout, and Searing Crater because of how retarded TvT can potentially be if he somehow sieges up your Nat.
Super helpful, thanks a bunch. Exactly what I was looking for - I sortof felt the maps (Nerazim, AC specially) were against us Terrans, but couldn't quite, with my limited knowledge, understand why. Appreciate the "walkthrough" 
I'd like to understand though why Tal'darim alter specifically is problematic, I understand the zerg argument but playing vs 'toss I haven't yet encountered troublesome Allins I couldn't have beaten with better macro (floating 600-700+ minerals when the atk hits)
Specifically which allins are problematic for Tal'darim, and what makes them easier to beat on other maps?
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What's a good safe 1/1/1 build that allows the most smooth transition to 2 base mech => Mech deathball
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
On September 08 2011 01:27 Sharor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 01:04 Blazinghand wrote:On September 07 2011 04:03 Sharor wrote:Hey all, first post so be gentle What maps should I veto for 1v1? I vetoed Nezarim Crypt because I felt the map was uncomfortable, but it might have been because of my opponent. I later vetoed Searing Crator and Abyssal Caverns because of the same reasons. But I've improved some since then I feel, and would like to hear what other people veto. My favorite is The Shattered Temple, if that helps. Edit: I'd like the arguments, as to why a map is bad / good for terran. Also if it depends on style (Bio/Mech) I think it really depends on your playstyle and which matchups you struggle with. For a long time, The only map I banned was Typhon Peaks, and that was because I didn't like the possibly of spawning vertically in TvT (which only happens 1/9th of the time) due to the whole deal with rocks breaking down and the map dividing in half for the great Cold War. I don't think I've spawned vertically TvT on Typhon and not gone to battlecruisers ._. it's fun but it takes like 30+ minutes. For some time I also banned Shakuras Plateau because I like 2-base timing attacks, and the natural is eminently defensible on that map. In terms of maximizing winrate, I'd probably ban Tal'Darim Altar (due to the strength of certain PvT allins, and the difficulty of moving past 3-base play against zerg), Nerazim Crypt (layout of xel'naga towers and counter-attack paths favor zerg, whereas low-ground third and lack of airspace favor protoss, + the layout of the main allows warp prism sentry elevator shenanigans), and Abyssal Caverns (because I just hate that map). Currently I ban Abyssal Caverns because of the weird map layout, and Searing Crater because of how retarded TvT can potentially be if he somehow sieges up your Nat. Super helpful, thanks a bunch. Exactly what I was looking for - I sortof felt the maps (Nerazim, AC specially) were against us Terrans, but couldn't quite, with my limited knowledge, understand why. Appreciate the "walkthrough" I'd like to understand though why Tal'darim alter specifically is problematic, I understand the zerg argument but playing vs 'toss I haven't yet encountered troublesome Allins I couldn't have beaten with better macro (floating 600-700+ minerals when the atk hits) Specifically which allins are problematic for Tal'darim, and what makes them easier to beat on other maps?
No problem! I'd like to note that most of these map imbalances are relatively minor, and that many people don't ban any maps at all-- and that there are map-specific things you can do to even the odds, so to speak, or counter-abuse.
Tal'darim Altar has a couple of problems. The first is that neither the main nor the nat really have a high-ground advantage at the choke, making certain attacks a little stronger. This is balanced by the wide chokes which let the Terran army maneuver against FFs pretty easily.
One issue I run into is that 3 Gate Void Ray allin is hard to fight against on this map. There's a lot of cliffs and ledges, and due to the lack of a high-ground in the main, he doesn't actually need to have the void ray to poke at your wall / your bunkers with his stalkers.
The main issue, though, is blink play. Although I see high-level players deal with it pretty easily, I lack the micro etc to deal with blink play on this map. Here's a diagram outlining why you need to be very sharp to stop blinks on Tal'darim:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/iU587.png)
A protoss player can blink into your main without spotting if he's in your third, and if he has an observer, warp prism, hallucination, he can do so from the lowground. He can blink into your natural either by suiciding a zealot up your ramp, or with an observer, again. This makes a bunker defense somewhat difficult-- he will blink around you whenever possible.
Blink play and void ray play is eminently holdable on this map, and I've seen pros do it, I'm just a lazy bum and would rather ban it.
On September 08 2011 01:49 Blasterion wrote:
What's a good safe 1/1/1 build that allows the most smooth transition to 2 base mech => Mech deathball
WHOA SIEGE TANK! <3
Um, depends on the matchup. In TvP, I'd get no addon for the rax, make a quick bunker, and have the factory make a hellion and scout him to see what he's up to. Take a 2nd gas, and make a raven out of your starport to bank up for an expo (this is like a sentry expand in that sense). Keep on making marines and at some point make a siege tank if you sense he's 1-basing, but otherwise be conservative about making factory units until you've started your expansion.
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On September 08 2011 01:49 Blasterion wrote:
What's a good safe 1/1/1 build that allows the most smooth transition to 2 base mech => Mech deathball
Usually a 1-1 add CC then starport > raven > banshee > add 1-2 facts and eng bay, while pumping marines.
Or a standard 1-1-1 starting with a raven (you will have to make 1 helion if your barracks has a reactor because of gas), teching siege into an expansion.
The problem with mech v P and Z is if they scout it , which doesn't always happen, or sense it- they can chrono boost probes or larvae up. Combat this by adding a third CC in your base and making an orbital. It is what Goody and Strelok and Demuslim have done in some replays I saw, as well as myself always getting 3.
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
In TvZ I don't like getting a starport before expoing; I prefer to start off with reactor hellions, since they're pretty good and if you transition to full mech you need them anyways. Once your expo is up, take all your gases, and have 3 factories ( 1 reactor, 2 tech) get siege mode, tanks, thors, hellions, and +1 vehicle attack, and push out with 140+ food.
In TvT... well, it's hard. I go for a 1-gas 1/1/1 into expo with 4 redflame hellion drop, to scout him and react. It's a weird matchup with a lot of reactive play.
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I have doing this Sky Terran build in TvT and so far I have been winning about 80% of my TvT's I have played since doing it. Simply just open with the double port banshees, harass some but make sure you make it cost efficient and that doesn't always mean killing scv's, tech structures are a super plus and supply depots.
This also gives u time to expand, the risk is that you need to take a quick third cause my Sky terran build consists of BC's Vikings and about 2-3 Ravens (PDD's, Turrets, detects cloaked units and if he goes marines Seekers missiles work so good!!!) Then depending on what my enemies unit comp is I will add things like some BF hellions basically whatever helps me counter there unit comp.
This build is SUPER mobile and not only that if you enemy doesn't get a good read on what your doing....alot of Terrans go rine tank and this build CRUSHES that. =D
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With the 2Rax 3Bunkers build, how do you completely wall of your natural? Because you can't do that on all maps, also the replays in that thread are on maps on which he can completely block off his natural...
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
On September 08 2011 03:50 KenDM wrote:
With the 2Rax 3Bunkers build, how do you completely wall of your natural? Because you can't do that on all maps, also the replays in that thread are on maps on which he can completely block off his natural...
If you can't fully wall off the natural, build your next supply depot to finish the wall. This is also convenient because you can open and close the wall. On some maps like typhon peaks or xel'naga caverns with another "door" into the natural, don't worry about the door and just seal it up with some depots and an engineering bay over time.
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I'm having a tough time executing this build since I'm so used to the all in 3 Rax  This is going to set me back big times. It's not that which worries me the most, it's the total chaos of having no ground to hold. If I only had some recent coach that can pick my mistakes up ...
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
On September 08 2011 04:08 KenDM wrote:I'm having a tough time executing this build since I'm so used to the all in 3 Rax This is going to set me back big times. It's not that which worries me the most, it's the total chaos of having no ground to hold. If I only had some recent coach that can pick my mistakes up ...
do you know what's causing you to lose the games you lost? maybe take a look at a replay? If you post one here i'll be able to get to it in a few hours-- but ideally you want to be like "ok this is when my bunkers and marines were up, this is when he and X and I had Y, and I actually need Z to stop his X so I need to do this to get this" etc when looking at a replay.
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On September 08 2011 04:10 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 04:08 KenDM wrote:I'm having a tough time executing this build since I'm so used to the all in 3 Rax This is going to set me back big times. It's not that which worries me the most, it's the total chaos of having no ground to hold. If I only had some recent coach that can pick my mistakes up ... do you know what's causing you to lose the games you lost? maybe take a look at a replay? If you post one here i'll be able to get to it in a few hours-- but ideally you want to be like "ok this is when my bunkers and marines were up, this is when he and X and I had Y, and I actually need Z to stop his X so I need to do this to get this" etc when looking at a replay.
I haven't tried the build yet because I don't really have enough recent metagame replays. I tried it versus the AI, and it feels really awkward for now. I'm a med-student in my intern-phase and I don't have a lot of time on my hands, so new builds can only be practiced on Friday to Sunday. I'll just have to read on comments and watch vids for now. So I was hoping I could get some cool vids from recent tournaments, and maybe a good fresh thread for Terran tactics (the existing ones seem so old).
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What's the best reaction to a 4 gate + warp prism? I didn't see the robo and prepared as usual for a 4gate, built a couple of bunkers at the choke at my natural (shakuras, I did 1 rax fe).
He did zealot drop + warp in at the back at the same time as he poked with the stalkers at the front.
I ended up pulling way too few units back to the drop and messed up. What would you propose as the best solution? I think leaving one or two units in each bunker and taking the rest to the back might have been the best answer... after all I can repair the bunkers.
It was the first time I encountered this, which is why I failed so badly.
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
On September 08 2011 06:07 Maxie wrote:
What's the best reaction to a 4 gate + warp prism? I didn't see the robo and prepared as usual for a 4gate, built a couple of bunkers at the choke at my natural (shakuras, I did 1 rax fe).
He did zealot drop + warp in at the back at the same time as he poked with the stalkers at the front.
I ended up pulling way too few units back to the drop and messed up. What would you propose as the best solution? I think leaving one or two units in each bunker and taking the rest to the back might have been the best answer... after all I can repair the bunkers.
It was the first time I encountered this, which is why I failed so badly.
You should probably pull most of your units out of your bunkers (and any marauders, if you have them), but leave a marine or two in each bunker and feel free to repair liberally. The big thing to worry about here is that before you run into your main, then he FFs your ramp and has a party in your mineral line and addon area.
As a general rule, you'll be up against like 16 food in your main and 4-8 food attacking your nat (assuming he dumps a full warp prism into your main and does a round of warpins) so split your forces accordingly. If you can somehow scout the robo ahead of time, a bunker in your main can help as well.
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On September 08 2011 04:44 KenDM wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 04:10 Blazinghand wrote:On September 08 2011 04:08 KenDM wrote:I'm having a tough time executing this build since I'm so used to the all in 3 Rax This is going to set me back big times. It's not that which worries me the most, it's the total chaos of having no ground to hold. If I only had some recent coach that can pick my mistakes up ... do you know what's causing you to lose the games you lost? maybe take a look at a replay? If you post one here i'll be able to get to it in a few hours-- but ideally you want to be like "ok this is when my bunkers and marines were up, this is when he and X and I had Y, and I actually need Z to stop his X so I need to do this to get this" etc when looking at a replay. I haven't tried the build yet because I don't really have enough recent metagame replays. I tried it versus the AI, and it feels really awkward for now. I'm a med-student in my intern-phase and I don't have a lot of time on my hands, so new builds can only be practiced on Friday to Sunday. I'll just have to read on comments and watch vids for now. So I was hoping I could get some cool vids from recent tournaments, and maybe a good fresh thread for Terran tactics (the existing ones seem so old).
Think of it this way, the build is supposed to be the safest possible fast expansion you can muster. All videos of pros you see going for a fast expansion just cut a lot of corners to get theirs up sooner. And yeah, it'll feel weird since it's not something you're used to, but my advice is to keep trying it. Try playing vs computers to get the feel of the build order down, and then take it to the ladder. I wouldn't be too concerned about whether the replays are current or not, since at the bronze level, strategies are all over the place and will range anywhere from old to new to not a real strategy.
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Masters Terran here...
Is mech the only option in TvT now? Nothing else seems to work when they get sensor towers to defend drops...
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
On September 08 2011 06:53 XiGua wrote:
Masters Terran here...
Is mech the only option in TvT now? Nothing else seems to work when they get sensor towers to defend drops...
Masters Terran also here:
Well... I've had SOME success with marine/marauder/tank, but not a huge amount. My usual strategy is to try to aggressively seize air control, since Mech isn't particularly better than Biomech at that, split the map, use marauders and p-forts extensively, then make like 4-5 battlecruisers do the normal "air superiority" deal with vikings. The main issue is getting up to 4+ bases against the very mobile hellions, and getting any drops through the very tight turret/sensortower strategy that's going on now.
It's also worth noting that as a general rule mech has a higher tank count if you're making marauders, and hellion harass makes taking expos dangerous. I think that once you get out of that early game, though, biomech is a thing.
I have no idea how to make non-tank-centric play work though.
If you really want to abuse mech openings though, you can 3 rax stim all-in (hiding a rax somewhere) and it can be a metagame win if he's opening hellions. It's not really "fun" though.
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On September 08 2011 06:53 XiGua wrote:
Masters Terran here...
Is mech the only option in TvT now? Nothing else seems to work when they get sensor towers to defend drops...
I agree mainly with blazinghand, that air superiority is the key, but i don't think you need to be tank centric to make it work (although that might change after the next patch). i play toxi's style of tvt where you get blue flame hellions out of a factory with a reactor, and then 2 starports with tech labs to make vikings and banshees. you save so much gas and money by going for only hellion that you can easily throw down a 3rd starport or switch one onto a reactor, giving you complete air control. once you have air control, they have very few options:
thor - countered by BCs
try to win the air battle - not likely if your macro is good and you don't let him fuck your econ up
marines - hellions destroy marines, he'd have to do an extremely safe siege tank leapfrog across the whole map to not die to air
here's a link to the build: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=243206
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On September 08 2011 06:53 XiGua wrote:
Masters Terran here...
Is mech the only option in TvT now? Nothing else seems to work when they get sensor towers to defend drops...
Im also a masters terran.
Bio is somewhat viable against mech, but marine/tank is dead. It gets destroyed so easily to mech. However, going pure maruder against mech can be quite good, as long as you keep air control with vikings. Also, once you get air superiority, making a tech switch to BC's is probably the best way to go, because bio won't cut it against mech once you get to around 180 food, due to how good tank's attacks scales.
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EPT
