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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On September 08 2011 04:44 KenDM wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 04:10 Blazinghand wrote:On September 08 2011 04:08 KenDM wrote:I'm having a tough time executing this build since I'm so used to the all in 3 Rax  This is going to set me back big times. It's not that which worries me the most, it's the total chaos of having no ground to hold. If I only had some recent coach that can pick my mistakes up ... do you know what's causing you to lose the games you lost? maybe take a look at a replay? If you post one here i'll be able to get to it in a few hours-- but ideally you want to be like "ok this is when my bunkers and marines were up, this is when he and X and I had Y, and I actually need Z to stop his X so I need to do this to get this" etc when looking at a replay. I haven't tried the build yet because I don't really have enough recent metagame replays. I tried it versus the AI, and it feels really awkward for now. I'm a med-student in my intern-phase and I don't have a lot of time on my hands, so new builds can only be practiced on Friday to Sunday. I'll just have to read on comments and watch vids for now. So I was hoping I could get some cool vids from recent tournaments, and maybe a good fresh thread for Terran tactics (the existing ones seem so old).
Hi KenDM,
I've put together a 25-minute coaching video for executing this build for you, and how to learn builds in general. I ran through the build order once, played once against AI, then tested it against a random opponent from a custom game. Enjoy!
Coaching VOD:
http://www.twitch.tv/blazinghand/b/294524697
Supplemental Replay:
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-230497.jpg)
Hope this helps.
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Wow! You're so great! I really appreciate all the work you put into it! I'll take a look soon! (maybe in the train to home)
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how to scout protoss after the 1st SCV scout ?
scan ?
what if the scan misses the key building ?
i got nailed 3 times already by cheesing toss
1st being WP drop at shakuras
2nd fast DT
3rd Void Ray all in with fake zealot warp inside base to make my bunker empty
all of the game i notice they're going to cheese
i got my 1st scv scout alive and scouting his expo periodically
but i kept losing because i dont know what cheese is he going to pull
i actually aware of the 3rd cheese (VR all in)
but got dummied by the warpin zealot in my base and frantically call out my bunkers
but the other 2 i really dont have a clue
cause i cant send my second scout or i missed my scan
so pls tell me how to stop dying from protoss cheese
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On September 08 2011 22:40 Vertical wrote:
how to scout protoss after the 1st SCV scout ?
scan ?
what if the scan misses the key building ?
With your first SCV, try to look around to find out where the pylons are. Make sure that you know how many pylons he's supposed to have at the time you're scouting his base, so you can tell if there's a pylon missing or not. If there's a missing pylon, me may be proxying something somewhere, so it's time to start scouting the usual spots for that. If all pylons are accounted for, you will know the places where his tech structures will likely end up in the short term, so you can place your scans accordingly.
Additionally, you can put some pressure on his ramp to see which units are shooting back at you to get an indication of how much he has and how much gas he's been spending on units instead of tech.
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On September 08 2011 10:49 kofman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 06:53 XiGua wrote:
Masters Terran here...
Is mech the only option in TvT now? Nothing else seems to work when they get sensor towers to defend drops... Im also a masters terran. Bio is somewhat viable against mech, but marine/tank is dead. It gets destroyed so easily to mech. However, going pure maruder against mech can be quite good, as long as you keep air control with vikings. Also, once you get air superiority, making a tech switch to BC's is probably the best way to go, because bio won't cut it against mech once you get to around 180 food, due to how good tank's attacks scales.
Honestly I think going Bio then transitioning to tank pumping once you got eco advantage and map control is better than just going straight bio with air control into some kind of BC switch. It seems better to use bios superior mobility to gain eco advantages then make your way back into a heavier tank/air play.
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On September 08 2011 22:57 Rannasha wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 22:40 Vertical wrote:
how to scout protoss after the 1st SCV scout ?
scan ?
what if the scan misses the key building ?
With your first SCV, try to look around to find out where the pylons are. Make sure that you know how many pylons he's supposed to have at the time you're scouting his base, so you can tell if there's a pylon missing or not. If there's a missing pylon, me may be proxying something somewhere, so it's time to start scouting the usual spots for that. If all pylons are accounted for, you will know the places where his tech structures will likely end up in the short term, so you can place your scans accordingly. Additionally, you can put some pressure on his ramp to see which units are shooting back at you to get an indication of how much he has and how much gas he's been spending on units instead of tech.
many thanks for the input
this will fill lots of stuff in my head in early game
and could be breaking my build
how to determine how many pylon they need :/
scouting is currently my weakest point
especially protoss
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On September 09 2011 00:21 Vertical wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 22:57 Rannasha wrote:On September 08 2011 22:40 Vertical wrote:
how to scout protoss after the 1st SCV scout ?
scan ?
what if the scan misses the key building ?
With your first SCV, try to look around to find out where the pylons are. Make sure that you know how many pylons he's supposed to have at the time you're scouting his base, so you can tell if there's a pylon missing or not. If there's a missing pylon, me may be proxying something somewhere, so it's time to start scouting the usual spots for that. If all pylons are accounted for, you will know the places where his tech structures will likely end up in the short term, so you can place your scans accordingly. Additionally, you can put some pressure on his ramp to see which units are shooting back at you to get an indication of how much he has and how much gas he's been spending on units instead of tech. many thanks for the input this will fill lots of stuff in my head in early game and could be breaking my build how to determine how many pylon they need :/ scouting is currently my weakest point especially protoss
During the early game, Protoss should have as at least as many pylons as you have supply depots. He'll probably need to start his 2nd and 3rd pylons a little earlier than you start your 2nd and 3rd depots, since there's a mild scv cut when you get your orbital and marine uses 1 food while zealot uses 2, and chrono boost will put him a little ahead in probes, but basically, if you have 3 depots and see only 2 pylons, or you have 2 depots and see only 1 pylon, something suspicious is afoot.
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On September 09 2011 02:01 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 00:21 Vertical wrote:On September 08 2011 22:57 Rannasha wrote:On September 08 2011 22:40 Vertical wrote:
how to scout protoss after the 1st SCV scout ?
scan ?
what if the scan misses the key building ?
With your first SCV, try to look around to find out where the pylons are. Make sure that you know how many pylons he's supposed to have at the time you're scouting his base, so you can tell if there's a pylon missing or not. If there's a missing pylon, me may be proxying something somewhere, so it's time to start scouting the usual spots for that. If all pylons are accounted for, you will know the places where his tech structures will likely end up in the short term, so you can place your scans accordingly. Additionally, you can put some pressure on his ramp to see which units are shooting back at you to get an indication of how much he has and how much gas he's been spending on units instead of tech. many thanks for the input this will fill lots of stuff in my head in early game and could be breaking my build how to determine how many pylon they need :/ scouting is currently my weakest point especially protoss During the early game, Protoss should have as at least as many pylons as you have supply depots. He'll probably need to start his 2nd and 3rd pylons a little earlier than you start your 2nd and 3rd depots, since there's a mild scv cut when you get your orbital and marine uses 1 food while zealot uses 2, and chrono boost will put him a little ahead in probes, but basically, if you have 3 depots and see only 2 pylons, or you have 2 depots and see only 1 pylon, something suspicious is afoot.
I saw your video. First of all I want to say thanks so very much! I'm greatly honored you made the tutorial for me (and you even pronounced my nick right  ). Second of all, you owned a Muta-using player which gives me a lot of hope since I always get owned by them. I do have one small question to ask: What if your opponent goes mass mutalisk? Because one way or the other, in Bronze league, it's either none or a ton regarding Muta production.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On September 09 2011 03:05 KenDM wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 02:01 Blazinghand wrote:On September 09 2011 00:21 Vertical wrote:On September 08 2011 22:57 Rannasha wrote:On September 08 2011 22:40 Vertical wrote:
how to scout protoss after the 1st SCV scout ?
scan ?
what if the scan misses the key building ?
With your first SCV, try to look around to find out where the pylons are. Make sure that you know how many pylons he's supposed to have at the time you're scouting his base, so you can tell if there's a pylon missing or not. If there's a missing pylon, me may be proxying something somewhere, so it's time to start scouting the usual spots for that. If all pylons are accounted for, you will know the places where his tech structures will likely end up in the short term, so you can place your scans accordingly. Additionally, you can put some pressure on his ramp to see which units are shooting back at you to get an indication of how much he has and how much gas he's been spending on units instead of tech. many thanks for the input this will fill lots of stuff in my head in early game and could be breaking my build how to determine how many pylon they need :/ scouting is currently my weakest point especially protoss During the early game, Protoss should have as at least as many pylons as you have supply depots. He'll probably need to start his 2nd and 3rd pylons a little earlier than you start your 2nd and 3rd depots, since there's a mild scv cut when you get your orbital and marine uses 1 food while zealot uses 2, and chrono boost will put him a little ahead in probes, but basically, if you have 3 depots and see only 2 pylons, or you have 2 depots and see only 1 pylon, something suspicious is afoot. I saw your video. First of all I want to say thanks so very much! I'm greatly honored you made the tutorial for me (and you even pronounced my nick right ). Second of all, you owned a Muta-using player which gives me a lot of hope since I always get owned by them. I do have one small question to ask: What if your opponent goes mass mutalisk? Because one way or the other, in Bronze league, it's either none or a ton regarding Muta production.
Well, you'll notice in the video at least I was able to unsiege and attack-move into the guy's natural. This is because I saw like 16ish mutalisks and realized he didn't have banelings, roaches, or infestors-- So I let him kill my barracks anyways.
Now, this isn't always gonna be possible. If we had spawned cross or close-by-air positions, moving across the map would be a dangerous proposition indeed, and I already had the lead at that point since he didn't have a mining 3rd and I had taken the gold.
In situations like that, you want to make more than 1 turret to defend your mineral line. If he's massing enough that he's 2-shotting turrets, you have a couple of options:
1) Get turret armor and repair turrets during mutalisk harass
2) Leave like 8 marines and a dropship in your main and focus on getting infantry upgrades
The final thing is that mutalisks love to stack up and pick off tanks. In my game, I made a lot of medivacs so I could use stimpack whenever I wanted as much as I want (double medivac production due to reactored starport). This let me find off mutalisks. Eventually, though, you want to get one(1) thor to hang out with your slow-push so that they can't stack up any more. Make sure to guard your thor with marines, since some players will use magic box, but it doesn't work on marines.
As a general rule, Mutalisks mean that he can't ever take you in a straight-up fight, but they make it so it's really really really hard to force a straight-up fight. Even in his final moments against me, my adversary did not pull back his mutalisks to fight my marines, because the purpose of mutalisks is mobility, not fighting.
If you can carefully move your army closer and closer to his base, his mutalisks become worse and worse at doing their job, which is keeping you in your base and on the defensive.
EDIT: Regarding banelings, unless you're a huge nerd baller (and I'm not), splitting marines against banelings is nigh-impossible. Ideally you should just stim and run your marines away, then use your tanks to kill banelings. I believe I do this in that game. Once the banelings are dead, pure marine (with whatever tanks are still alive) is fine against zergling/mutalisk.
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I have the replays but they're kinda not important for the question - worth noting if need be though.
The question is this - how do I (as a mech player) deal with blink stalker play? I got utterly destroyed two games by toss, once was a 4 gate I think but I responded too slowly :/
As a mech player my immobillity allows stalkers really easy into the base from a back entrance on most maps - and I can't scout for it, since that would require like 7 entrances guarded by sieged tanks and that's not really.. optional.
Is there a smart way to deal with blink stalker as mech?
Edit:
Otherwise I'll be forced to up my marine count fairly heavy in the early stages of the game, until im like 4~ bases.
Think the map was Typhon peaks, we spawned top left and bot right (me) and he blinked in with an observer, even though I cleaned up 1 (2 maybe?) earlier observers. I was really on the ball I felt with the blink stalker thing and he jumps into the back of the base and takes out most my main
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TvZ unplayable cant even win from gold just fucking bullshit
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On September 09 2011 03:53 Sharor wrote:I have the replays but they're kinda not important for the question - worth noting if need be though. The question is this - how do I (as a mech player) deal with blink stalker play? I got utterly destroyed two games by toss, once was a 4 gate I think but I responded too slowly :/ As a mech player my immobillity allows stalkers really easy into the base from a back entrance on most maps - and I can't scout for it, since that would require like 7 entrances guarded by sieged tanks and that's not really.. optional. Is there a smart way to deal with blink stalker as mech? Edit: Otherwise I'll be forced to up my marine count fairly heavy in the early stages of the game, until im like 4~ bases. Think the map was Typhon peaks, we spawned top left and bot right (me) and he blinked in with an observer, even though I cleaned up 1 (2 maybe?) earlier observers. I was really on the ball I felt with the blink stalker thing and he jumps into the back of the base and takes out most my main
There's a couple things here. Back when I was toying with TvP biomech, this is what I did to account for siege tank mobility issues: whenever possible, I would be unsieged. I'd have marines scattered around about 15-16 units out from my tanks in all directions so that I could siege up at any moment and still be sieged up before he was in range. Although this requires CONSTANT VIGILANCE, it means that if your tanks ever need to move somewhere they'll get there several seconds faster.
The other thing I did was make sensor towers wherever my tanks weren't, and a PF at every base that wasn't my nat or main. This way I'd see any blink stalker play coming from far away, and be able to respond in time. Usually having a sensor tower straight-up discourages blink play.
On September 09 2011 03:56 prutz wrote:TvZ unplayable cant even win from gold just fucking bullshit
Is there a question or help request here?
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I'd enjoy some TvP tips/builds for when not going 1 rax fe (or 1-1-1), since there are some maps where a 1 rax fe is quite terrible (XNC, for example) and I don't feel like using the 1-1-1 every time such a map comes up.
I've been using a reactor first 2 rax expand where I poke at my opponent when concussive shell is done.
My question is basically this: what should I do to utilize the strength of the 2 rax build? If I go 1 rax fe I usually have the economical advantage and can sit back and macro for the first 10 minutes of the game, but I feel like I need to... do some damage with a build that isn't a fast expand. So far I've been trying to deny the natural a bit (or punish it, in case they have one/are building one as I poke) as well as attacking at timings like when stim is done or +1 finishes, etc, if it seems like a fight would be favorable for me... but if they ever go immortals they just crush me (at least the first poke), so if I scout immortals I back off.
Thoughts/suggestions? Sorry for a rather poorly written post, I'm tired.
On September 09 2011 03:56 prutz wrote:TvZ unplayable cant even win from gold just fucking bullshit
TvZ is by far the matchup that suffers the most if you're bad at it... unless you only meet Zergs who overdrone all the time and die to a 10 minute attack because they have like 4 roaches...
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On September 09 2011 06:49 Maxie wrote:
I'd enjoy some TvP tips/builds for when not going 1 rax fe (or 1-1-1), since there are some maps where a 1 rax fe is quite terrible (XNC, for example) and I don't feel like using the 1-1-1 every time such a map comes up.
I've been using a reactor first 2 rax expand where I poke at my opponent when concussive shell is done.
My question is basically this: what should I do to utilize the strength of the 2 rax build? If I go 1 rax fe I usually have the economical advantage and can sit back and macro for the first 10 minutes of the game, but I feel like I need to... do some damage with a build that isn't a fast expand. So far I've been trying to deny the natural a bit (or punish it, in case they have one/are building one as I poke) as well as attacking at timings like when stim is done or +1 finishes, etc, if it seems like a fight would be favorable for me... but if they ever go immortals they just crush me (at least the first poke), so if I scout immortals I back off.
Thoughts/suggestions? Sorry for a rather poorly written post, I'm tired.
On Xel'Naga Caverns and when I spawn close positions for shattered Temple, I do a 2 rax techlab-first concussive rush. Go for a 13 gas and, and this is what your initial rax makes:
1) marine
2) tech lab
3) marauder [start concussive shells at the same time]
4) marauder #2 [concussive shells finishes when marauder #2 finishes, at this point begin stimpack]
start your 2nd rax during this time when you can bank 150 minerals, and push across the map with your initial marine and marauder. Poke at him with concussive shell and try to pick off his stalker or zealot, or if he screws up his micro, force him to pull probes. As soon as warpgate is finished, go home and wait for your stim or expo to finish or whatever your plan is.
This expo is much later than a 1 rax expo, and a bit later than a 2 rax reactor-first expo, but can be devastating, especially if protoss cuts something along the way. SlayerS`Dragon uses something similar when he spawns close on Shattered Temple.
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@Blazinghand: I used to do something similar but more extreme back when raxes didn't require supply depots, lol, it was fun... on steppes of war. I'll try it out, I'm fairly certain my ability to macro while microing has improved since then.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On September 09 2011 06:57 Maxie wrote:
@Blazinghand: I used to do something similar but more extreme back when raxes didn't require supply depots, lol, it was fun... on steppes of war. I'll try it out, I'm fairly certain my ability to macro while microing has improved since then.
I forgot to mention but somewhere in there you expo lol well let me know how it goes. XNC might have too long of a rush distance... this is really best on shattered temple close spawns.
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On September 09 2011 03:56 prutz wrote:TvZ unplayable cant even win from gold just fucking bullshit
Very constructive and insightful post. Enjoy the ban.
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On September 09 2011 06:49 Maxie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 03:56 prutz wrote:TvZ unplayable cant even win from gold just fucking bullshit TvZ is by far the matchup that suffers the most if you're bad at it... unless you only meet Zergs who overdrone all the time and die to a 10 minute attack because they have like 4 roaches...
I think those wins are the worst. You think you are doing alright but you are just relying on all ins and your opponent messing up so you never really learn how to TvZ then when you meet good zergs you feel helpless
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On September 09 2011 07:32 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 06:49 Maxie wrote:On September 09 2011 03:56 prutz wrote:TvZ unplayable cant even win from gold just fucking bullshit TvZ is by far the matchup that suffers the most if you're bad at it... unless you only meet Zergs who overdrone all the time and die to a 10 minute attack because they have like 4 roaches... I think those wins are the worst. You think you are doing alright but you are just relying on all ins and your opponent messing up so you never really learn how to TvZ then when you meet good zergs you feel helpless
Three great resources for learning TvZ (marine tank, specifically) would be http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=241247 and http://blip.tv/file/5331241 and http://blip.tv/file/5254322
The first thread is a really comprehensive guide on TvZ in general, ranging from build orders, transitions, tactics, responses, etc. For a more verbal version, watch the two day9 dailies on TvZ, although for build openers I would most likely use the ones in his Less Is More daily than MMA's build since MMA's is much more demanding I feel. The MMA vod has some very important lessons regarding tactics with the marine tank medivac composition, most specifically using drops to harass and draw forces away from where your main army will be pushing (i.e. drop in main, push his 3rd) and constantly doing those multipronged attacks. I've been attempting to use that playstyle in both my TvZ and TvP styles and it works really really well, assuming you can manage the multitasking (and by multitasking I mean dropping and stimming and then A-moving with your main army  )
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On September 09 2011 07:32 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 06:49 Maxie wrote:On September 09 2011 03:56 prutz wrote:TvZ unplayable cant even win from gold just fucking bullshit TvZ is by far the matchup that suffers the most if you're bad at it... unless you only meet Zergs who overdrone all the time and die to a 10 minute attack because they have like 4 roaches... I think those wins are the worst. You think you are doing alright but you are just relying on all ins and your opponent messing up so you never really learn how to TvZ then when you meet good zergs you feel helpless
All ins? Lol I go reactor hellion expand into marine tank, is that all in? But yeah, for example I feel kinda good when I beat my zerg friend but then I realize that he plays terribly in about half his games and seems unbeatable the other half.
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EPT
