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On March 15 2012 04:20 Inquisitor1323 wrote:
On March 15 2012 02:32 Inquisitor1323 wrote:
On March 14 2012 23:52 Pokebunny wrote:
Tanks are useless tvp, don't ever use them other than 1/2base allins.
Hardly, tanks can be very strong situationally. On taldarim altar, for example, they can be used to harass the natural against any race. Also, considering that they are almost never used in TvP, they can be
effective purely because the protoss may not know how to respond...
Chargelots counter it. And as far as i know protoss always makes this unit.
For defence though... Say like on the high ground around your base. I could see them being viable.
Tanks are amazing in defensive position. A couple months ago I was working on some weird biomech style that was involving really rapid expanding while defending with tanks and trying to harass as much as possible with banshee/drops. It works quite well but I but that aside for now since I wasnt in a mood for the long games it ended up with. The style requires a lot of patience and slow strategic mastermind play.
Cheers
Dan
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On March 15 2012 02:07 dotDash wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 23:52 Pokebunny wrote:
Tanks are useless tvp, don't ever use them other than 1/2base allins.
Strongly disagree. Tanks can wreak complete havoc if used correctly, however using them correctly requires a lot of skill. Imo people should never say that a certain unit shouldnt be built, there's always something you can do with a unit! Cheers Dan
Everything toss has beats tanks. Immortals, zealots, stalkers, voidrays, phoenix, archons...
the list goes on.
Tanks are good for timing pushes, tanks in TvP just don't work. If it does, it's probably NOT because of the tanks.
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On March 15 2012 05:21 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 02:07 dotDash wrote:On March 14 2012 23:52 Pokebunny wrote:
Tanks are useless tvp, don't ever use them other than 1/2base allins.
Strongly disagree. Tanks can wreak complete havoc if used correctly, however using them correctly requires a lot of skill. Imo people should never say that a certain unit shouldnt be built, there's always something you can do with a unit! Cheers Dan Everything toss has beats tanks. Immortals, zealots, stalkers, voidrays, phoenix, archons... the list goes on. Tanks are good for timing pushes, tanks in TvP just don't work. If it does, it's probably NOT because of the tanks.
And everything you just mentioned is countered my marines. Also, I like how you first say they work in timing pushes and then that they dont work at all, not contradicting yourself at all...
What Im trying to say is, all units have counters and I dont think tanks are fully explored in TvP yet.
Cheers
Dan
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Tanks are only useful in TvP for timing attacks and for defensive purposes but why would you spend 3x a marauder for a static defense?
Nearly every toss unit counters seige tanks. Blink? Charge? Gravitation beam? Hardened shield? Etc etc
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On March 15 2012 05:46 Kamwah wrote:
Tanks are only useful in TvP for timing attacks and for defensive purposes but why would you spend 3x a marauder for a static defense?
Nearly every toss unit counters seige tanks. Blink? Charge? Gravitation beam? Hardened shield? Etc etc
Becuase a tank can easily be 3x more effective than a mara and isnt static defense.
Abilities you mention may help a lot vs tanks, but doesnt nullify them. Every unit has its counters... if not, everyone would build the unit without counters obviously lol. It's like saying "lol marines are so useless in tvp becuase of colossi and high templars, not worth building." .. while I only builds rines the first 10min in my standard TvP 
People need to play like they want, how they feel is fun. Not by some weird popular crap.
Cheers
Dan
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On March 15 2012 05:31 dotDash wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 05:21 iAmJeffReY wrote:On March 15 2012 02:07 dotDash wrote:On March 14 2012 23:52 Pokebunny wrote:
Tanks are useless tvp, don't ever use them other than 1/2base allins.
Strongly disagree. Tanks can wreak complete havoc if used correctly, however using them correctly requires a lot of skill. Imo people should never say that a certain unit shouldnt be built, there's always something you can do with a unit! Cheers Dan Everything toss has beats tanks. Immortals, zealots, stalkers, voidrays, phoenix, archons... the list goes on. Tanks are good for timing pushes, tanks in TvP just don't work. If it does, it's probably NOT because of the tanks. And everything you just mentioned is countered my marines. Also, I like how you first say they work in timing pushes and then that they dont work at all, not contradicting yourself at all... What Im trying to say is, all units have counters and I dont think tanks are fully explored in TvP yet. Cheers Dan
No, marines do not counter all of them. Tanks are explored in TvP. They don't work. I've seen so many top players throw away a TvP game from continuing tanks after their timing push. You're an idiot, if you can't read between the lines assuming I'm contradicting myself.. As obviously I mean they only work in timing pushes, and otherwise are useless in TvP.
The thing is once they get to chargelot/archon tanks are going to be your death, as it takes like 10+ shots to kill an archon, and the splash from your own tanks + charge on top of them and archon splash is enough to shit on marine tank.
Tanks vs toss are not something that you can get to work over and over. If it does work, I'd be positive it wasn't the tank.
I'm not casting them off completely. I too do tank pushes in TvP outside of 1-1-1. I just cut mine at 3-4 tanks, max. Then go into fast third and bio.
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On March 15 2012 06:14 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 05:31 dotDash wrote:On March 15 2012 05:21 iAmJeffReY wrote:On March 15 2012 02:07 dotDash wrote:On March 14 2012 23:52 Pokebunny wrote:
Tanks are useless tvp, don't ever use them other than 1/2base allins.
Strongly disagree. Tanks can wreak complete havoc if used correctly, however using them correctly requires a lot of skill. Imo people should never say that a certain unit shouldnt be built, there's always something you can do with a unit! Cheers Dan Everything toss has beats tanks. Immortals, zealots, stalkers, voidrays, phoenix, archons... the list goes on. Tanks are good for timing pushes, tanks in TvP just don't work. If it does, it's probably NOT because of the tanks. And everything you just mentioned is countered my marines. Also, I like how you first say they work in timing pushes and then that they dont work at all, not contradicting yourself at all... What Im trying to say is, all units have counters and I dont think tanks are fully explored in TvP yet. Cheers Dan No, marines do not counter all of them. Tanks are explored in TvP. They don't work. I've seen so many top players throw away a TvP game from continuing tanks after their timing push. You're an idiot, if you can't read between the lines assuming I'm contradicting myself.. As obviously I mean they only work in timing pushes, and otherwise are useless in TvP. The thing is once they get to chargelot/archon tanks are going to be your death, as it takes like 10+ shots to kill an archon, and the splash from your own tanks + charge on top of them and archon splash is enough to shit on marine tank. Tanks vs toss are not something that you can get to work over and over. If it does work, I'd be positive it wasn't the tank. I'm not casting them off completely. I too do tank pushes in TvP outside of 1-1-1. I just cut mine at 3-4 tanks, max. Then go into fast third and bio.
Marines do actually counter all you just mentioned cost-wise. I won't agree on tanks being explored yet tbh. People are stuck on how tanks work vs certain units and not what it can develop into. Like how the P reacts to tanks and such, this might seem like Im implying that tanks are bad since I transition out of them... but by then they have done their job already. However, lets say I transition into air from tanks after they go archon/chargelot. All of a sudden Im in a rather good position right? I can agree on that full mech is probably bad, but I will remain behind the tank to the very end, as it has worked for me in biomech into skyterran style vs P.
Oh, and no, Im not an idiot.
In archon/chargelots vs tank/marine situation you should win becuase of the marines. It might require slight manual targeting with your tanks.
I've won a lot of games becuase of tanks.
Cheers
Dan
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In TvZ assuming i have my tanks and marines spread out well enough, i know that i focus fire banelings and infestors with tanks but what do i do with my marines, do i just stim and stutter back or do i stutter around my tanks? ( especially curious about facing infestors as stuttering marines will make them clump )
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On March 15 2012 06:33 dotDash wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 06:14 iAmJeffReY wrote:On March 15 2012 05:31 dotDash wrote:On March 15 2012 05:21 iAmJeffReY wrote:On March 15 2012 02:07 dotDash wrote:On March 14 2012 23:52 Pokebunny wrote:
Tanks are useless tvp, don't ever use them other than 1/2base allins.
Strongly disagree. Tanks can wreak complete havoc if used correctly, however using them correctly requires a lot of skill. Imo people should never say that a certain unit shouldnt be built, there's always something you can do with a unit! Cheers Dan Everything toss has beats tanks. Immortals, zealots, stalkers, voidrays, phoenix, archons... the list goes on. Tanks are good for timing pushes, tanks in TvP just don't work. If it does, it's probably NOT because of the tanks. And everything you just mentioned is countered my marines. Also, I like how you first say they work in timing pushes and then that they dont work at all, not contradicting yourself at all... What Im trying to say is, all units have counters and I dont think tanks are fully explored in TvP yet. Cheers Dan No, marines do not counter all of them. Tanks are explored in TvP. They don't work. I've seen so many top players throw away a TvP game from continuing tanks after their timing push. You're an idiot, if you can't read between the lines assuming I'm contradicting myself.. As obviously I mean they only work in timing pushes, and otherwise are useless in TvP. The thing is once they get to chargelot/archon tanks are going to be your death, as it takes like 10+ shots to kill an archon, and the splash from your own tanks + charge on top of them and archon splash is enough to shit on marine tank. Tanks vs toss are not something that you can get to work over and over. If it does work, I'd be positive it wasn't the tank. I'm not casting them off completely. I too do tank pushes in TvP outside of 1-1-1. I just cut mine at 3-4 tanks, max. Then go into fast third and bio. Marines do actually counter all you just mentioned cost-wise. I won't agree on tanks being explored yet tbh. People are stuck on how tanks work vs certain units and not what it can develop into. Like how the P reacts to tanks and such, this might seem like Im implying that tanks are bad since I transition out of them... but by then they have done their job already. However, lets say I transition into air from tanks after they go archon/chargelot. All of a sudden Im in a rather good position right? I can agree on that full mech is probably bad, but I will remain behind the tank to the very end, as it has worked for me in biomech into skyterran style vs P. Oh, and no, Im not an idiot. In archon/chargelots vs tank/marine situation you should win becuase of the marines. It might require slight manual targeting with your tanks. I've won a lot of games becuase of tanks. Cheers Dan
I do a marine tank marauder medic timing push. I always get "wtf is this shit?" when it wins. I know toss don't know how to handle it most times, since it's normal just to FF ramp and wait it out -- but with 3 tanks it's not possible to do that.
When it doesn't, they deflect it, and win with double ebay and chargelot archon. You won't be able to keep up with protoss upgrades with double ebay, make tanks, ghosts, medics, vikings, and still keep up with their upgrade + production.
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On March 15 2012 07:00 TheQforce wrote:
In TvZ assuming i have my tanks and marines spread out well enough, i know that i focus fire banelings and infestors with tanks but what do i do with my marines, do i just stim and stutter back or do i stutter around my tanks? ( especially curious about facing infestors as stuttering marines will make them clump )
You stim and A move to the army, and just split and micro as you see fit. You don't just A move, but you A move then based on their army movement and what not, is where you decide how you split and go about the engagement.
You box and split against infestors, and prespread and continue small groups forward to take 'point' and bait fungals as you move around in a big concave.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On March 15 2012 07:31 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 06:33 dotDash wrote:On March 15 2012 06:14 iAmJeffReY wrote:On March 15 2012 05:31 dotDash wrote:On March 15 2012 05:21 iAmJeffReY wrote:On March 15 2012 02:07 dotDash wrote:On March 14 2012 23:52 Pokebunny wrote:
Tanks are useless tvp, don't ever use them other than 1/2base allins.
Strongly disagree. Tanks can wreak complete havoc if used correctly, however using them correctly requires a lot of skill. Imo people should never say that a certain unit shouldnt be built, there's always something you can do with a unit! Cheers Dan Everything toss has beats tanks. Immortals, zealots, stalkers, voidrays, phoenix, archons... the list goes on. Tanks are good for timing pushes, tanks in TvP just don't work. If it does, it's probably NOT because of the tanks. And everything you just mentioned is countered my marines. Also, I like how you first say they work in timing pushes and then that they dont work at all, not contradicting yourself at all... What Im trying to say is, all units have counters and I dont think tanks are fully explored in TvP yet. Cheers Dan No, marines do not counter all of them. Tanks are explored in TvP. They don't work. I've seen so many top players throw away a TvP game from continuing tanks after their timing push. You're an idiot, if you can't read between the lines assuming I'm contradicting myself.. As obviously I mean they only work in timing pushes, and otherwise are useless in TvP. The thing is once they get to chargelot/archon tanks are going to be your death, as it takes like 10+ shots to kill an archon, and the splash from your own tanks + charge on top of them and archon splash is enough to shit on marine tank. Tanks vs toss are not something that you can get to work over and over. If it does work, I'd be positive it wasn't the tank. I'm not casting them off completely. I too do tank pushes in TvP outside of 1-1-1. I just cut mine at 3-4 tanks, max. Then go into fast third and bio. Marines do actually counter all you just mentioned cost-wise. I won't agree on tanks being explored yet tbh. People are stuck on how tanks work vs certain units and not what it can develop into. Like how the P reacts to tanks and such, this might seem like Im implying that tanks are bad since I transition out of them... but by then they have done their job already. However, lets say I transition into air from tanks after they go archon/chargelot. All of a sudden Im in a rather good position right? I can agree on that full mech is probably bad, but I will remain behind the tank to the very end, as it has worked for me in biomech into skyterran style vs P. Oh, and no, Im not an idiot. In archon/chargelots vs tank/marine situation you should win becuase of the marines. It might require slight manual targeting with your tanks. I've won a lot of games becuase of tanks. Cheers Dan I do a marine tank marauder medic timing push. I always get "wtf is this shit?" when it wins. I know toss don't know how to handle it most times, since it's normal just to FF ramp and wait it out -- but with 3 tanks it's not possible to do that. When it doesn't, they deflect it, and win with double ebay and chargelot archon. You won't be able to keep up with protoss upgrades with double ebay, make tanks, ghosts, medics, vikings, and still keep up with their upgrade + production.
Jeffrey is definitely right here. Tanks have a place in TvP, specifically in 1 and 2 base allins. As the protoss techs to get charge and splash damage, Tanks are much better replaced with other terran tech units such as vikings or ghosts. Tanks are extremely limited in terms of usefulness against chargelots, archons, and colossi, and they suck up gas that could be going to your anti-protoss-tech units, or your double upgrades or medivacs.
I would never use tanks outside of specific timing attacks. I think you can watch almost any professional streamer, and you'll find this to be the case with him as well.
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Hey guys I'm a rank #1 Plat, so close to Diamond. My MMR is Mid-Diamond, but when I get matched with Zergs I instantly lose all my games.
TvZ:
When the Zerg gets 15 hatch I go for Reactor Helion Expand, after I have 4 helions what do I transition into because when the Zerg get's roaches I end up with only marines in my base and so I can't defend it.
- I also go for a Three Tank Push, but it is instantly shut down by Zerglings/Banelings.
I don't know what's wrong is it my approach or macro?
TvT:
I go for a 1 rax FE into Marine Rush or Two Rax Bio. Easy win usually. Don't have a lot of Terran Matchups though.
TvP:
How do I practice harrassing? I am always so anxious in dropping. How can I make them most effective? What's good build orders when the P gets fast storms, what's a good way to transition into ghosts without drainging money on two base. I mean how many Barracks should I have on a saturated 2 base.I usually win against protoss but what's a good alternative to 1 rax gasless FE and 2 Rax Pressure?
I really need help against Zerg.
Thanks!
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Im pretty new here, whats a good updated guide or resource for Terran? Liquipedia seems a bit out dated but its hard to play since I really dont know whats old and what is not, please and thank you.
<3
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On March 15 2012 08:24 MoLite wrote:
Hey guys I'm a rank #1 Plat, so close to Diamond. My MMR is Mid-Diamond, but when I get matched with Zergs I instantly lose all my games.
TvZ:
When the Zerg gets 15 hatch I go for Reactor Helion Expand, after I have 4 helions what do I transition into because when the Zerg get's roaches I end up with only marines in my base and so I can't defend it.
- I also go for a Three Tank Push, but it is instantly shut down by Zerglings/Banelings.
I don't know what's wrong is it my approach or macro?
One bunker behind a wall with constant marine production and scvs repairing should be enough to hold any early roach bust. You should see the roaches come fairly early because ideally you'll have hellions parked near the front of his base; once you see roaches, your hellions should stay back and fry any ling reinforcements, or even sneak into his base (if it's safe) and fry drones. If not, use your hellions to delay the roach push for as long as you can so you can be as prepared as possible. Build additional bunkers if you feel it necessary, and pull scvs for repair BEFORE the roaches get to your base. They can kill bunkers scary fast.
The three tank push is fine as long as you know what to do. If you're playing standard, you will almost never be ready to kill zerg until the 20 minute mark. The three/two tank push is designed to kill an early third, and any smallish army. That's it. If he's not taking an early third, or if you feel his army is a bit too strong for yours, move out just enough to kill creep and run back to your base. You want to scare zerg into making roaches/lings instead of drones. stim a marine or two ahead/ to the sides of your army so you know where your opponent's army is and won't catch you unseiged.
It's all about pressuring the zerg throughout the game so that when you're actually ready to fight, his army won't be impossible to beat. Pressure doesn't actually mean engaging, it means making your opponent feel uncomfortable enough that he feels he must make an army instead of drones to survive. If he's playing greedy, punish him. If he's not, threaten engagements but don't actually fight. Also medivac drops are good, I'd rather get some medivacs up earlier because it's much easier to do damage. Move out with a smallish army to kill creep, and drop him at the same time. Avoid direct confrontation.
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Hey Guys!
I'm a Bronze level player who started SC2 from the beginning about 2-3 weeks ago so i'm like completely new. I used to be terrible and hated my gameplay, but now I feel like i'm getting better. Could you give me any tips that you think will help my gameplay? Also when can I expect a promotion? I'm probably not better than other bronze players, but I just need a goal to set. Thanks for all your help in advance =D.
Heres a replay of a game I just did: http://sc2rep.com/replays/(T)BigD_vs_(P)OKENTARO/18738
Any tips at all will help, as I pretty much know nothing of starcraft =D.
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On March 15 2012 17:55 neomisbahk1 wrote:Hey Guys! I'm a Bronze level player who started SC2 from the beginning about 2-3 weeks ago so i'm like completely new. I used to be terrible and hated my gameplay, but now I feel like i'm getting better. Could you give me any tips that you think will help my gameplay? Also when can I expect a promotion? I'm probably not better than other bronze players, but I just need a goal to set. Thanks for all your help in advance =D. Heres a replay of a game I just did: http://sc2rep.com/replays/(T)BigD_vs_(P)OKENTARO/18738Any tips at all will help, as I pretty much know nothing of starcraft =D.
Can´t watch the replay atm, sry, but what I know with bronze player is just keep your scv production going, keep makeing supply depots and units. Don't care to much about fancy builds just just improve your macro. It will take you to gold and then imo start thinking more about build orders.
Also don't cheese, your macro will improve the most if you do economical builds where you go long games. Atleast from my experience, I went from low gold to top diamond with these tips(ofcourse I did more fancy build when I got higher but you get my point, macro get you far). Gl.
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It's funny how people refuse to try new things.
Only because it is not the "standard" it is shit and nobody should even try to make it usefull. But when they do they are talking shit. (oh hi Idra!)
Tanks can be usefull for securing a early third base for example on entombed valley (MMA vs Socke @ IEM WC http://www.esl-world.net/masters/season6/hanover/sc2/groupstage/download/26109747/)
Watch Naama's stream how he crushes thorugh the korean ladder with tanks. He contains the protoss with tanks & bunkers while taking a third and reinforce with MMM +Vikings/Ghosts
Tanks are just not explored in the tvp matchup. But there were also times where nobody used ghosts vs zerg or zerg sad infestors are crap units... MAYBE the tank will take this place in tvp
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On March 15 2012 08:24 MoLite wrote:
TvZ:
When the Zerg gets 15 hatch I go for Reactor Helion Expand, after I have 4 helions what do I transition into because when the Zerg get's roaches I end up with only marines in my base and so I can't defend it.
- I also go for a Three Tank Push, but it is instantly shut down by Zerglings/Banelings.
I don't know what's wrong is it my approach or macro?
I think my mmr is near to your's as I'm plat and get matched against diamonds almost every game.
I go gasless fe almost every game vs zerg. Terran can win a macro game easily against zerg if you just play it correctly and you can macro well yourself. Just go tank marine medivac with double engineer bay. Get some thors if he goes muta. Research only mech weapon upgrades from armory. Preferably attack before ultras or broodlords are out.
If zerg gets into 5 bases with hive tech it gets a little more complicated. You have to drop a lot and get counter to broods/ultras. If you dont want to get ghosts you need to scout very well so you know if he goes brood or ultra. You have to watch out for tech switches so he won't catch you with vikings when he has ultras or broods when you have marauders.
If you want to hellion expand, you should consider making a tech lab into your first rax, so you can make marauders in case of roaches are coming. If they dont come you can just attack with marauder+hellion+stim timing. Target spines and queens with marauder ant kill lings with hellions.
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On March 15 2012 18:20 Phays wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 17:55 neomisbahk1 wrote:Hey Guys! I'm a Bronze level player who started SC2 from the beginning about 2-3 weeks ago so i'm like completely new. I used to be terrible and hated my gameplay, but now I feel like i'm getting better. Could you give me any tips that you think will help my gameplay? Also when can I expect a promotion? I'm probably not better than other bronze players, but I just need a goal to set. Thanks for all your help in advance =D. Heres a replay of a game I just did: http://sc2rep.com/replays/(T)BigD_vs_(P)OKENTARO/18738Any tips at all will help, as I pretty much know nothing of starcraft =D. Can´t watch the replay atm, sry, but what I know with bronze player is just keep your scv production going, keep makeing supply depots and units. Don't care to much about fancy builds just just improve your macro. It will take you to gold and then imo start thinking more about build orders. Also don't cheese, your macro will improve the most if you do economical builds where you go long games. Atleast from my experience, I went from low gold to top with these tips(ofcourse I did more fancy build when I got higher but you get my point, macro get you far). Gl.
Thanks for the advice! I feel like I'm doing everything youre telling me to do. I just need someone to watch my replay, and tell me how im doing for a bronze leaguer. I don't think Im better than other bronze players, so i'm just wondering what I could improve to get a promotion.
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On March 15 2012 17:55 neomisbahk1 wrote:Hey Guys! I'm a Bronze level player who started SC2 from the beginning about 2-3 weeks ago so i'm like completely new. I used to be terrible and hated my gameplay, but now I feel like i'm getting better. Could you give me any tips that you think will help my gameplay? Also when can I expect a promotion? I'm probably not better than other bronze players, but I just need a goal to set. Thanks for all your help in advance =D. Heres a replay of a game I just did: http://sc2rep.com/replays/(T)BigD_vs_(P)OKENTARO/18738Any tips at all will help, as I pretty much know nothing of starcraft =D.
another replay just in case: http://sc2rep.com/replays/(Z)Doraya_vs_(T)BigD/18746
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EPT
