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On February 17 2012 13:09 Darpa wrote:
need help with some openings and general thoughts.
How do people open against Zerg these days? I see literally every korean hellion expand. But basically you do no damage and then he makes 4 zerglings and a wall with spines and pumps 70 drones while you cant do anything about it. Then they just pump infestors and win with harassment or big fungals. It happens in literally all my tvz's. I need an opening that I can cause damage and still expand in the process (i.e not one base pushes).
I also have no idea how to deal with infestors. Tanks are ok on two player maps, because you have way less room it doesnt take you 5 hours to creep up to the base. On any 4 player map its so hard to play against infestors with tanks because by the time you tank hop up, hes got way more units and you lose your timings. Ghosts are ok with snipe, but emp never hits more than 1 or 2, but im struggling getting ghosts up without severly hurting my unit count in the early to mid game.
Any suggestions on how to open aggressively without hurting your economy to badly?
Well, if they just sit behind their wall on two bases while droning hard as you say, I do a quick double medivac stimmed marine/helion elevator and usually does A LOT of damage to zergs who skimp on units in favor of drones. I use "MMA"s double medivac build that he did against TargA on antiga shipyard @ IEM Kiev if you wanted a BO replay of it. I usually add a CC and double engine bays during/after the attack.
But yeah, that's what I do when I see a zerg that has invested in a lot of resources for defending their natural is droning hardcore behind it.
replay @ http://www.esl-world.net/masters/season6/kiev/news/182647
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hello masters terran here.
I have no idea how to beat lategame maxed toss deathballs. It can't be done. I'll emp an entire army, move in, split up, and lose everything and then the game. Unless I'm playing a really bad protoss that gets out of position, I lose every time. I feel like its impossible to win any TvP game that goes over 20:00.
replay:
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-254507.jpg)
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What's the build MMA did vs Mvp that one game on Belshir beach where he did 3rax all-in with scvs but proxied 2 of the rax? (so it looked like a gasless 1rax expand)
Just wondering the timings of all the rax (supply wise).
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I play random when I'm too frustrated to play on my main account (zerg). When I play TvT, I do a marine with +1/medivac timing push that transitions to marine/tank. About half the time I do this, however, I end up facing someone who will do a 1 base marine/tank push which is really hard to deal with. I've seen a few pro terrans do this sort of marine opening, so I'm sure it can deal with the 1 base marine/tank, but I'm just not sure how since i've never seen it (or maybe I did and I wasn't paying attention, I have a hard time focusing on non zerg games tbh ><)
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Thanks Anderas, Kid-Fox
Do you have some sample replays it would be very helpfull to see couple of replays of each of these strategies.
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On February 17 2012 18:17 Arisen wrote:
I play random when I'm too frustrated to play on my main account (zerg). When I play TvT, I do a marine with +1/medivac timing push that transitions to marine/tank. About half the time I do this, however, I end up facing someone who will do a 1 base marine/tank push which is really hard to deal with. I've seen a few pro terrans do this sort of marine opening, so I'm sure it can deal with the 1 base marine/tank, but I'm just not sure how since i've never seen it (or maybe I did and I wasn't paying attention, I have a hard time focusing on non zerg games tbh ><)
I assume you're talking about 1rax FE into marine medivac?
You need to hold watchtowers and attack him while he's moving and before he sieges up. Get a good concave and pull SCVs if necessary. Also go CS before stim, it will oftentimes be done before the push arrives and it helps a lot.
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Concerning Pokebunny's post about holding a wp 4gate:
On January 19 2012 02:16 Pokebunny wrote:
WP 4gate is tough if you don't see it coming. I almost always spread all supplies after my first around the edges of my base.
If you're opening gasless FE (the real go-to build vs P at least at master+ level) and add 2-3 rax right after expo and pull 10 scvs to fight the battle, you should actually completely roll over the initial wave of 8 units. Amove with your SCVs and kite forward with your marines, and if he doesn't run the prism as you move your marines forward, target it if you're sure you can kill it.
similar with a factory/banshee/1/1/1 opening except you'll have less marines and it will be slightly harder, but you'll have a banshee out to assist in battle./
if you opened with 2+ rax you should have zero trouble crushing this completely, as long as you pull back reasonably in time from pressuring. if you don't see a protoss expo by 6 minutes, you should be playing defensively, and preparing for DT if he's on two gas.
I lost another game vs this on shattered temple. Built my expo on my nat as thorzain and other good terrans do, got a fullscout of his strat with my first scv around 5:30 and still couldn't hold it. Some questions/problems:
1) How do you save your nat? I left 4 marines in the bunker in case he splits his attack and sends two zealots to my nat or sth but I've talked to other players who fly back their CC into their main once they scout this build.
2) How do you position your marines? I had mine close to the edge so he couldn't warpin units without me noticing it but I had too few marines to directly kick the prism. Instead he could just drop his zealots onto my marines which was pretty bad. It would have been easier if I had put my marines between my mining SCVs because it's harder for zealots to engage and everything is closer together but then he can warp in his stuff at the edge of my base and build a huge force. Do you also build a bunker in your main? I probably should have but it seems a bit worthless because he can just run around and do damage elsewhere. OTOH this guy just picked up his zealots and dropped them onto my marines if they weren't in meele range. A bunker would have helped there a lot.
3) Just some idea but if you have your marines between your mining SCVs and he attacks with zealots, can't you just put all the SCVs on hold posi and almost completely block the zealots this way?
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Blazinghand
United States25562 Posts
On February 18 2012 05:00 Hero1 wrote:Concerning Pokebunny's post about holding a wp 4gate: Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 02:16 Pokebunny wrote:
WP 4gate is tough if you don't see it coming. I almost always spread all supplies after my first around the edges of my base.
If you're opening gasless FE (the real go-to build vs P at least at master+ level) and add 2-3 rax right after expo and pull 10 scvs to fight the battle, you should actually completely roll over the initial wave of 8 units. Amove with your SCVs and kite forward with your marines, and if he doesn't run the prism as you move your marines forward, target it if you're sure you can kill it.
similar with a factory/banshee/1/1/1 opening except you'll have less marines and it will be slightly harder, but you'll have a banshee out to assist in battle./
if you opened with 2+ rax you should have zero trouble crushing this completely, as long as you pull back reasonably in time from pressuring. if you don't see a protoss expo by 6 minutes, you should be playing defensively, and preparing for DT if he's on two gas. I lost another game vs this on shattered temple. Built my expo on my nat as thorzain and other good terrans do, got a fullscout of his strat with my first scv around 5:30 and still couldn't hold it. Some questions/problems: 1) How do you save your nat? I left 4 marines in the bunker in case he splits his attack and sends two zealots to my nat or sth but I've talked to other players who fly back their CC into their main once they scout this build.
Good terrans will lowground the CC against certain builds on certain maps where it is safe to do so. However, if you scout a 4gate WP attack happening, unless you're walled off and have a bunker at the nat wall, you should just fly indoors.
2) How do you position your marines? I had mine close to the edge so he couldn't warpin units without me noticing it but I had too few marines to directly kick the prism. Instead he could just drop his zealots onto my marines which was pretty bad. It would have been easier if I had put my marines between my mining SCVs because it's harder for zealots to engage and everything is closer together but then he can warp in his stuff at the edge of my base and build a huge force. Do you also build a bunker in your main? I probably should have but it seems a bit worthless because he can just run around and do damage elsewhere. OTOH this guy just picked up his zealots and dropped them onto my marines if they weren't in meele range. A bunker would have helped there a lot.
You should be able to overwhelm him with your marines and scvs, even out of a 1 Rax FE. shoot for his units instead of his warp prism unless it's like in phasing mode and not running away.
3) Just some idea but if you have your marines between your mining SCVs and he attacks with zealots, can't you just put all the SCVs on hold posi and almost completely block the zealots this way?
A good player will have his zealots just stab the scvs anyways using micro. Using them to attack will be effective because it increases your damage output and lets you clean up the push more quickly. You can also use mineral-walking to get some of them on the other side of his stalkers and zealots.
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is it clever to play with 4 factorys for SiegeTanks in TvZ if i get my 3rd base?
i remember that nada played with this style..
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Okay, I need some help in straight up TvZ. I over make SCVs. I can't micro in big battles atm, because my graphics card slows down to insanely low FPS so I'm lucky to stim and split. I played a few practice games against my GM Z friend, he was top 30 on his name last season. (smurf name in this game for him, still GM tho)
Game 1 - http://drop.sc/113864
Game 2 - http://drop.sc/113863
I get three bases easily, and drop harass etc etc, but I can never find a way to push out against a good zerg. Is this just a purely out classed games, and I didn't fuck up too much. I had some supply blocks, forgot shields and +2/+2 in game 1 for too long.
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On February 17 2012 14:54 jabberjaw wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 13:09 Darpa wrote:
need help with some openings and general thoughts.
How do people open against Zerg these days? I see literally every korean hellion expand. But basically you do no damage and then he makes 4 zerglings and a wall with spines and pumps 70 drones while you cant do anything about it. Then they just pump infestors and win with harassment or big fungals. It happens in literally all my tvz's. I need an opening that I can cause damage and still expand in the process (i.e not one base pushes).
I also have no idea how to deal with infestors. Tanks are ok on two player maps, because you have way less room it doesnt take you 5 hours to creep up to the base. On any 4 player map its so hard to play against infestors with tanks because by the time you tank hop up, hes got way more units and you lose your timings. Ghosts are ok with snipe, but emp never hits more than 1 or 2, but im struggling getting ghosts up without severly hurting my unit count in the early to mid game.
Any suggestions on how to open aggressively without hurting your economy to badly? Well, if they just sit behind their wall on two bases while droning hard as you say, I do a quick double medivac stimmed marine/helion elevator and usually does A LOT of damage to zergs who skimp on units in favor of drones. I use "MMA"s double medivac build that he did against TargA on antiga shipyard @ IEM Kiev if you wanted a BO replay of it. I usually add a CC and double engine bays during/after the attack. But yeah, that's what I do when I see a zerg that has invested in a lot of resources for defending their natural is droning hardcore behind it. replay @ http://www.esl-world.net/masters/season6/kiev/news/182647
Thanks for this! I watched the replay, looks awesome. Going to try it out today!
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Decided to make the switch from Zerg to Terran. I'd like to play a mech style, so what is an essential build order I can practice to help mature my play?
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On February 18 2012 08:14 iAmJeffReY wrote:Okay, I need some help in straight up TvZ. I over make SCVs. I can't micro in big battles atm, because my graphics card slows down to insanely low FPS so I'm lucky to stim and split. I played a few practice games against my GM Z friend, he was top 30 on his name last season. (smurf name in this game for him, still GM tho) Game 1 - http://drop.sc/113864Game 2 - http://drop.sc/113863I get three bases easily, and drop harass etc etc, but I can never find a way to push out against a good zerg. Is this just a purely out classed games, and I didn't fuck up too much. I had some supply blocks, forgot shields and +2/+2 in game 1 for too long.
And another. I went on a huge fucking tilt tonight. 4-1, then a nice fucking 1-7 skid. All I'm drawing is top 1-3 masters this season, and people who are 1.1k-1.3k or GM. What the fuck is up with this MMR shit.
Any rate, here's another game where I got completely out classed, and wanna know where. I drew him on ladder.
http://drop.sc/114160 me vs colryze
Also this game, I felt I was doing so well, dropping everywhere and sniping shit, but yet still zerg takes gold, and 3rd.
He's a friend of a 'friend' of mine, very BM. I get...VERY BM in this game. I was so fed up with the night, but yet I went on the 0-5 skid, including this game. So anyone at all, check this one. Z is current 15-2
http://drop.sc/114163 vs feeeedme
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And another. I went on a huge fucking tilt tonight. 4-1, then a nice fucking 1-7 skid. All I'm drawing is top 1-3 masters this season, and people who are 1.1k-1.3k or GM. What the fuck is up with this MMR shit. Any rate, here's another game where I got completely out classed, and wanna know where. I drew him on ladder. http://drop.sc/114160 me vs colryze
You got outmacroed pretty hard there. SCV production went out the window every time you attacked/dropped allowing him to get a huge worker lead. Don't think the reapers were all that useful. Maybe try an early ghost? (I'm kidding).I think the problem was that the zerg didn't let you score a big lead with the harassment, Your mechanics aren't good enough to be playing at that mmr. The game was completely lost by 13:00.
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Hey guys. I'm a Bronze level terran (on the SEA server) which makes me a bottom feeder of bottom feeders. Recently I've been focusing on my macro and I feel like my macro is honestly not bad. I can hit 200 supply in about 14-16 minutes, constantly make SCVs, try to keep my ratio of production correct etc. Problem is after my first placement match, I'm rank 86. All I do is try to macro well and A click into the opponent's base and it's failing. Before I posted a thread where I just tried doing mass marines without mining gas and I won more games back then.
Can anyone please help me with this?
http://www.mediafire.com/?ku0zduys9910par
In this game I used a 1 rax fe against my opponent. I ended up with 3 bases (including 1 gold) and lost to a 1 basing terran. I just don't understand this game anymore.
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On February 18 2012 05:25 Blazinghand wrote:
Good terrans will lowground the CC against certain builds on certain maps where it is safe to do so. However, if you scout a 4gate WP attack happening, unless you're walled off and have a bunker at the nat wall, you should just fly indoors.
On temple I usually go 1rax FE with CC before 2nd depot without a walloff but ofc with a bunker. It's the same build that thorzain does so it must be possible to hold all sorts of allins especially when scouted in time.
I think I'll just pull all of my forces back to my main the next time. When he splits his attack, either wave will be very weak and I can still pull back SCVs from my nat and lift the orbital.
On February 18 2012 05:25 Blazinghand wrote:
You should be able to overwhelm him with your marines and scvs, even out of a 1 Rax FE. shoot for his units instead of his warp prism unless it's like in phasing mode and not running away.
Pokebunny pointed out that keeping your marines alive as long as possible is the key but I couldn't prevent him from just dropping zealots onto my marines.
Another big problem is that the prism comes when stim is far from finished and one rax has a lot of downtime due to the reactor production time.
On February 18 2012 05:25 Blazinghand wrote:
A good player will have his zealots just stab the scvs anyways using micro. Using them to attack will be effective because it increases your damage output and lets you clean up the push more quickly. You can also use mineral-walking to get some of them on the other side of his stalkers and zealots.
If you put your SCVs on hold position, zealots won't attack them when marines are around but they'll heavily block the zealots. Sure, a good player will snipe SCVs but this should be way more ineffective for him and I won't loose that many SCVs. It depends on his zealot/stalker count though if this is worth it imo.
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Hi guys! Against the Zerg I often do a Siege push with 3 tanks (and try to expo during it). But lately, in high Silver I am being stopped more often. I can't supply a replay because this is a general question. My specific problem is this: with three tanks and a couple of marines I stop before the ramp of the Zerg expo and try to do as much damage as I can. Usually Zerglings finish off my marines leaving my tanks naked, so lately I've been trying to wait for medivacs for up-ramp vision. But by the time they arrive, suddenly Muta's! Because I'm producing marines from 1 barracks I'm low in numbers. Back home another problem arises: No Engineering Bay because of the expo and Starport.
Does anyone have some wise words for a TvZ Siege Push?
Also, Blazinghand, if you don't mind. I've seen you doing some silly Thor drops etc. Would you mind posting an awesome replay/thread about your tactics and the pro's and cons of it?
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United Kingdom38257 Posts
On February 18 2012 20:12 KenDM wrote:
Hi guys! Against the Zerg I often do a Siege push with 3 tanks (and try to expo during it). But lately, in high Silver I am being stopped more often. I can't supply a replay because this is a general question. My specific problem is this: with three tanks and a couple of marines I stop before the ramp of the Zerg expo and try to do as much damage as I can. Usually Zerglings finish off my marines leaving my tanks naked, so lately I've been trying to wait for medivacs for up-ramp vision. But by the time they arrive, suddenly Muta's! Because I'm producing marines from 1 barracks I'm low in numbers. Back home another problem arises: No Engineering Bay because of the expo and Starport.
Does anyone have some wise words for a TvZ Siege Push?
Also, Blazinghand, if you don't mind. I've seen you doing some silly Thor drops etc. Would you mind posting an awesome replay/thread about your tactics and the pro's and cons of it?
Post up your replays Ken =)
It sounds like you're doing a 1 base siege push and expanding to your nat as it happens? If this is the case I think you'd get a lot of mileage out of swapping to an earlier expansion and a slightly later but more sustainable tank push. But yeah, replays =)
Blazinghand did actually make an awesome thread about his Thorship play here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=302050
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On February 18 2012 21:51 Asha` wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2012 20:12 KenDM wrote:
Hi guys! Against the Zerg I often do a Siege push with 3 tanks (and try to expo during it). But lately, in high Silver I am being stopped more often. I can't supply a replay because this is a general question. My specific problem is this: with three tanks and a couple of marines I stop before the ramp of the Zerg expo and try to do as much damage as I can. Usually Zerglings finish off my marines leaving my tanks naked, so lately I've been trying to wait for medivacs for up-ramp vision. But by the time they arrive, suddenly Muta's! Because I'm producing marines from 1 barracks I'm low in numbers. Back home another problem arises: No Engineering Bay because of the expo and Starport.
Does anyone have some wise words for a TvZ Siege Push?
Also, Blazinghand, if you don't mind. I've seen you doing some silly Thor drops etc. Would you mind posting an awesome replay/thread about your tactics and the pro's and cons of it? Post up your replays Ken =) It sounds like you're doing a 1 base siege push and expanding to your nat as it happens? If this is the case I think you'd get a lot of mileage out of swapping to an earlier expansion and a slightly later but more sustainable tank push. But yeah, replays =) Blazinghand did actually make an awesome thread about his Thorship play here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=302050
Yeah I usually post replays, but can't remember which one were my TvZ's. I'll post when I lose another game like that. For now I'm trying to do the push with more marines if possible...
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On February 18 2012 08:14 iAmJeffReY wrote:Okay, I need some help in straight up TvZ. I over make SCVs. I can't micro in big battles atm, because my graphics card slows down to insanely low FPS so I'm lucky to stim and split. I played a few practice games against my GM Z friend, he was top 30 on his name last season. (smurf name in this game for him, still GM tho) Game 1 - http://drop.sc/113864Game 2 - http://drop.sc/113863I get three bases easily, and drop harass etc etc, but I can never find a way to push out against a good zerg. Is this just a purely out classed games, and I didn't fuck up too much. I had some supply blocks, forgot shields and +2/+2 in game 1 for too long.
First game, I feel you spend a bit too long microing first SCV building bunker and then the reaper, you could've started your CC ~10 seconds earlier and stim too - small things but when it is unrealistic to finish a bunker you may as well ensure macro is on track ESPECIALLY in the super early game. 3 reaper build is kind of wonky against Zerg, your opponent deals with it pretty easily - you kill 4-5 drones and a bunch of lings but all he is doing behind this is building drones so he is completely fine and over 10 supply ahead. 3 reapers really don't do a whole lot for you other than creep clearing but you can do that with any unit fine since he was just droning. At 8 minutes he has double your worker count, and by the time your first push arrives he can easily just make roach & lings to defend. Fast starport tech like this really does nothing for you against this opponent, you'd have been much better off building quicker third and getting upgrades going quicker for a later but more dangerous push. I don't think you made the right decision choosing when to push and what with, if you had gone for any earlier timing without medivacs I can see you doing damage but with medivac tech it is too delayed - he's already droned to a good number and is making units.
Huge macro problem is not constantly producing SCVs (in this game at least) - I think you accidentally hit CTRL-5 instead of SHIFT-5 on your building CC which explains at least part of this. By 14 minute mark you are woefully far behind enough that I went to watch second replay.
Second game, it's cross positions so you should really build a fast third especially with factory opener. He has double your workers when you pull hellions back and you have tanks with siege mode but no timing to attack since you did not start stim or combat shield; and third is delayed unnecessarily. If you are worried about roach / baneling timing scan or be ballsy with hellions to see drone saturation, please don't blindly build tanks and delay your economy. He is just straight ahead and not in any danger really and he knows it so game is already not going well for you. You could have punished his gold if you had stim or combat shield, or just more marines - delaying these upgrades for tanks really does not make much sense in general. Fast 1-1 is good but without the essential marine upgrades you can't punish anything.
Your barracks are idle at points in the game where you have money to produce from them, big mistake. Weakens and/or delays any push you are going for.
First engagement does not go too badly for you but your macro is not going well enough for you to counterattack and punish any of his bases. You are actually overmaking SCVs at this point. Biggest problem you have in this game IMO - you need more barracks, quicker - marine count is just too low to do much far too often. Drop play does not start early enough to worry him in this game. A lot of this is a product of your seemingly directionless opener. You absolutely need to check your worker saturation at points in the game, 92 SCVs is an insane amount. Your push when maxed is too small due to supply in SCVs and too weak due to building marauders blindly. Your engagement isn't a huge problem, tanks were spread well enough. Game is essentially over at this point
Multi-faceted problems with your macro, and on some level your decision-making, are really holding you back. I would say, go watch replays of IM.MVP, Bomber or MMA in TvZ and emulate what they do in terms of builds and execution
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